I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
I guess my confusion about the ASR site is that there seems to be a certain measured criteria that noise when below the audible range that in a dark room I (or any real/ or perceived audiophile) wouldn't be able to differentiate this product from a more expensive product even if the more expensive measured better.
Noise is just one parameter of performance, albeit, an important one that telegraphs other performance specifications. If the frequency response of one system is rolled off then you are going to hear that whether noise is a factor or not. Indeed, passive speakers are noise-free (when you are not feeding them a signal) yet there are vast audible differences between them.
If you mean all measured impairments are below threshold of hearing in both devices, then yes, in a controlled, level matched, repeated test, listeners would not be able to reliably tell them apart.
First, wouldn't that mean the more expensive product should get dinged in a review because even though it measured better the differences weren't audible and the relentless pursuit of better measuring products is of no value?
It got the soccer panther (equiv. of golfing panther for European products). Here are my conclusions after it topped all the charts:
"Conclusions
The Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC shows again that just because a DAC is designed from ground up, it need not perform poorly. It is actually the opposite with it performing at the top of the class with respect to distortion and noise.
Since I am not the one paying for it for you to purchase it, it is not my issue to worry about the cost. As such, I am happy to recommend the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC based on its measured performance and functionality."
There are non-fidelity aspects of products that matter to some people, myself included. There is pride of ownership, looks, support, warranty, resale, etc. that are valuable purchase criteria. The key is to not confuse those things with sound fidelity.
To be sure, there is pushback from membership on how I can recommend such expensive devices since you can get similar performance for much lower cost. My answer to them is that they can judge the product however they want (they get to vote in the poll that way). My job is not to assess how affordable something is. That, the readers can and do take into account. I provide the missing information, i.e. performance data and they get to combine it with above factors to make a purchase decision.
I should say that I do "curve the grades" a bit when testing super budget products. I will recommend a $90 amplifier with certain performance that I would not if it cost $9,000.
Finally, there are exceptions. But above is how it works almost all the time.
Yet ASR continues to bring in new products after the peak has already been reached based on perceptive hearing, To me then it appears that the pursuit is not about music but bragging rights regarding the numbers or else there is an audible difference beyond the perceived hearing threshold and ASR members can tell the difference.
People and companies send me products and I test them. I don't go and seek them out myself. People want to know if the performance is still great or taken a step back.
Almost every review of state of the art DAC is followed by a number of people complaining what the point of testing them is as they all sound the same. So your comment about "ASR people" is wrong. Members know that a few manufacturers are in a race to product the least amount of noise and distortion they can.
While maintaining start of the art performance for $229.
Finally, please note that the asian consumer electronics market demands fresh products. Anything more than a few months old is "not good anymore." If I were running these companies I would produce 10% of the products they do but their local market demands much more. So we have embarrassment of riches as they say.
The other inference is that ASR can build a minimal system based on perception measurements that when blind tested in Mike Lavigne’s listening room that the ASR system would sound indistinguishable or better than his current system. I find that hard to believe but then again I’ve never heard Mike’s system or Amir’s for that matter.
That should be hard to believe because it is not true. State of the art audio system will be expensive. My system is not cheap and neither is Mike’s:
The reason is to the left and right of Mike. To get incredible dynamics and bass down to subsonic will be super expensive. I am guessing his speakers weigh close to 1000 pounds! Your $500 bookshelf speaker is not going to do what his does. Physics and economic business models won’t allow it.
Mind you, we have made incredible progress toward bringing cost of such systems down. In the "old" analog days, every component of the system from source to speakers was expensive. Today with digital, playback hardware can be free in the form of a music player on a computer you already own. Some of us splurge a bit more for likes of Roon but that is not related to fidelity. This is a lot cheaper than a turntable.
DACs have massively come down in price while sharply increasing performance. If you don’t need balanced out, an $80 SMSL DAC will clean the clocks of many high-end DACs and provide full transparency to source content you are playing.
Amplification used to be another expensive factor. More power meant more expensive output transistors and inefficiency meant large and heavy heatsinks and cases. My amplifiers cost $25,000 each and weigh more than 110 pounds each. Fortunately, the era of high performance class D is upon us. For around $1000 you can get tons of power and superb, absolutely superb performance.
Speakers remain problematic. There is progress to bring the cost way down for equiv. performance. A Genelec or Neumann monitor bring accuracy and fidelity to die for. But except for the top of their range, they lack the amplification power and dynamics to do what Mike’s or my speakers do. Although the Genelec 8361A comes awfully close to my speakers for less than half the price.
There is a work around here with subwoofers. Those can bring the low-end but they also demand lots of work and knowledge on behalf of the owner to get them to work well with their room and main speakers.
Final note: there are a lot of expensive speakers that have poor design. So above is not to say that you pay more and get more. It is just that it is impossible to get the impressive sound that you can out of large/massive speaker systems at budget prices. I have listened to hundreds of audio systems at shows. The ones with statement speakers always do things that amaze me. No way do I go around and say you can spend $5K and get the same thing. Just not going to happen.
Wow thank you for the detailed and constructive response to my post. It would be worth the $80 to test your assumption regarding the SMSL against my current horribly measuring PSaudio DirectStrem DAC (Which I love by the way). It will be here tomorrow.
I hope at least you were listening to enjoyable music while you were responding.
I would just add that peak performance and sound will typically cost a good bit more in a larger room than a smaller one.
Also worth noting that these days in the 21st century, Roon DSP like DSP in general is the great "equalizer" thus can make a huge difference in sound quality in any room if applied wisely, though I suppose few buy Roon solely for its DSP. That’s merely a huge bonus!
One is at a HUGE disadvantage these days if they still go about getting great sound today the same way they did 30-40 years ago.
Technology has progressed greatly since then. Just look all around you! Hifi gear including speakers and electronics are no different.
Also worth noting that these days in the 21st century, Roon DSP like DSP in general is the great "equalizer" thus can make a huge difference in sound quality in any room if applied wisely, though I suppose few buy Roon solely for its DSP. That’s merely a huge bonus!
Sonically, "State of the art" speakers need not be unreachable for dudes with thin wallets.
If you don’t mind the big n ugly, some sonic gems exist inside the relatively more expensive side of Pro Audio. To be fair, low aptitude extortion category "hifi speakers" can be ugly as hell too (look at wilson for example).
Guy’s started to tout the sterile class D again for low prices...You can get other better sounding topologies for lower prices too. For example, the Schiit Tyr can be endgame for all kinds of guys at around 3k. Sterile shrill class D + sterile Revel could launch you into a whole new level of sterile...you could quickly become a sterile ASR necromonger.
Somehow, i doubt the 100 dollar SMSL dac will clean the socks of some great dac implementations observed in technics, aavik, denafrips, mola mola, etc. But, i’m sure y’all will report back after you hear this 100 dollar miracle dac and start listing all your expensive dacs for sale.
Did you really order the 80 buck dac? I’m curious to see your reaction when you hear the thing… please keep us updated. I know you could never do a blind test that would suffice Amir but if you do a variant of that it would be curious. Amir told me my Pioneer S1ex were dynamic and had great bass cause the measurements said so. Then it was my room. Then he just stopped talking. Then he said dynamics was just how loud something could play. Then he said…….. well you get the point.
Amir told me my Pioneer S1ex were dynamic and had great bass cause the measurements said so.
What? You said your speakers measure great. I showed you that they did not remotely have such good measurements. Your diagnostic of what is wrong with them is suspect but your bad experience matches not so great measurements.
Nope they do measure pretty well. You were talking about John’s measuements and how it must have been my room(s) and multiple amps I used. Do you believe dynamics is how loud a speaker can play?? Macro/micro? You ignored this last time? Also fast is a thing in a speaker whether or not you say it is or not. Can you measure dynamics?? Most important top 3 for a speaker? How do you measure that with your equipment? Enquiring minds want to know.
Sterile shrill class D + sterile Revel could launch you into a whole new level of sterile...you could quickly become a sterile ASR necromonger.
Class D has never been sterile. That reputation came from people judging products with their eyes and lack of engineering background than proper sound evaluation.
Class D amps have to have a post filter to get rid of the carrier frequency. That filter will have a rising impedance with respect to frequency, causing it to interact with the speaker's impedance. Result is that the high frequency response of the speaker would change, either tilted up or down, together with potential for ringing. Note that tube amps that have high output impedance do the same thing except they do so across the spectrum.
There were also non-linearities in class D amps due to dead time in switching transistors.
Then comes the genius Bruno Putzeys who designed the Hypex amplifiers some 10 to 15 years ago. He put the output post filter into the feedback loop, and thereby nullifying its effect. He also added more gain which allowed it to in turn have more feedback, linearizing the response to near state of the art.
Fast forward a decade and he partnered with Lars Risbo and Peter Lyngdorf and created Purifi amplifiers. These worked to push distortion and noise even lower, bringing them very close to Benchmark AHB2 class G amplifier.
This thing is compact and weighs like it too. You can easily pick it up with one hand. Check out how low the distortion is:
It is also incredibly quiet although there are a couple of other amps that are even better:
It is not super powerful but still:
I know, I know... You don't care about measurements. So let's look at reviews of this amplifier covered by a site that caters to you all: Soundstage Hifi:
"I began evaluating the Eigentakt when I used it in May to review the Magico A1 minimonitors ($7400/pair). Before hooking up the Eigentakt, I’d been using a pair of Constellation Audio Revelation Taurus monoblocks -- massive amps that cost $40,000/pair, are specified to each output up to 500W into 8 ohms or 1000W into 4 ohms, and sound outstanding. "
[...]
"I found that the Eigentakt was not only powerful enough to drive the A1s -- it sounded as good as the Constellations. As I wrote in my review, “almost nothing about the A1s’ sound had changed -- the tonal balance was the same, the highs were just as extended and the midrange just as pure, voices were equally robust, bass just as extended, and the soundstaging and imaging were exactly as before.” What’s more, I also thought that if there were any differences in the sounds, they “were at best slight and, surprisingly, favored the Purifi.”
On noise level he says:
"Nor did the Eigentakt functionally disappoint. When I first turned it on, by flicking the main power switch on its backside and pressing Standby on the front panel, I heard no trace of noise or hum from the speakers. The ring around the Standby button glowed red, but still I wondered if the power was on. I held one ear close to the tweeter of one A1 and heard only a faint hiss. At that point, the EMM Labs DAC and preamp were also in circuit and powered up -- when I turned them off, the hiss got even fainter. I had to put my ear almost on the tweeter to hear anything at all. The Eigentakt is one quiet amp."
Precisely as measurements predicted.
He gets a second opinion:
"
After completing my review of the Magico A1, I traveled to the UK to shoot some videos for our YouTube channel, and lent the review sample of the Eigentakt to fellow reviewer Diego Estan, who hooked it up to his McIntosh Laboratory C47 preamp-DAC ($4500). Diego had exactly the same experience I had. When he first powered up the Purifi and Mac, he was startled to hear only a faint hiss from the tweeter of one of his Focal Sopra No1 speakers -- a hiss that grew fainter still when he switched off the preamp. Diego admires superquiet components -- he really liked that aspect of the Eigentakt.
He then compared the Eigentakt to his McIntosh MC302 stereo power amp ($5500, 300Wpc into 8, 4, or 2 ohms), and found them sonically indistinguishable -- their tonal balances were identical, and he didn’t think he heard any more or less detail with either."
He concludes thusly:
"I was bowled over by the Purifi Eigentakt’s sound and operation. It turned on silently, made almost no noise, provided more than enough power while generating hardly any heat, and passed music through so transparently, at volume levels from low to high, that it left me in near disbelief that so small a box could accomplish so much. Diego Estan had the same experience. In fact, I like the Eigentakt so much that I want to keep it here permanently, to review speakers with and to compare with other amps, particularly those based on Purifi 1ET400A modules. It will be interesting to hear if any of the latter improve on the Eigentakt’s sound."
So objective and subjectively your comments are wrong. Class D amplifiers that I recommend are superb. Absolutely superb. They not only sound great, they don't heat up your house, don't break your back carrying them, and don't take much space in your system. With a number of companies packaging them in nice boxes and selling direct, they easily put many high-end amplifiers to shame across the board.
There is no such thing. These are made up terms by audiophiles with zero knowledge of audio science and engineering. No different than PRAT and other nonsense terms like it. So don't ask me about it.
Yes I really ordered he 80 dollar dac. A blind test may not be possible but if it's really close I can always shut my eyes and have my wife toggle the inputs.
I'm a little wary as I could actually hear a difference in DACs on a youtube comparison when they were comparing fairly expensive DACs. I live about 3 hours from any decent Stereo store so the cost is less than a tank of gas and I'll get to hear it on a system I'm familiar with.
I'll be sure to post my findings as I'm willing to take the heat from any (or both) sides. Let the flaming begin
'Cause no one can design it. It is like asking me to build you a counter for number of times Aliens have landed in your backyard. Just because you imagine something, and make up a name for it, doesn't mean it is real.
You asked me about "micro/macro" dynamics. Those things don't exist.
Dynamics is a general term and can exist if you qualify it as I did for you last time we discussed this. I define it as how loud a speaker can play sub-bass tones without audible distortion.
Are you serious Amir? You pick little one sentence snips that work to you narrative like you’ve been doing for the past 2 weeks .?? Ok I’ll be cleaeeaaaaarrrrr then. might even ask chat gpt to do it for me! Jk
1: DO YOU BELIEVE DYNAMICS IN A SPEAKER IS A THING?
2: HOW DO YOU MEASURE SUCH DYNAMICS (assuming you think it’s a real thing)
3: YOU REALLY DONT THINK FAST IS A THING WHEN IT CONES TO SPEAKERS?
by the way dynamics is the difference between soft and loud and how well the speaker presents and handles that transition. Just so you know it’s not how loud a speaker can play. How loud a speaker can play is just……. How loud a speaker can play. . . ….
1: DO YOU BELIEVE DYNAMICS IN A SPEAKER IS A THING?
Your question is ambiguous indicating you don’t know the precise way to characterize speaker performance.
2: HOW DO YOU MEASURE SUCH DYNAMICS (assuming you think it’s a real thing)
Same answer.
3: YOU REALLY DONT THINK FAST IS A THING WHEN IT CONES TO SPEAKERS?
Yes.
by the way dynamics is the difference between soft and loud and how well the speaker presents and handles that transition.
Made up characteristic that is not supported by any listening test study.
Just so you know it’s not how loud a speaker can play. How loud a speaker can play is just……. How loud a speaker can play.
I didn’t tell you it was. I told you how you assess usable dynamic range of a speaker. What you are talking about is vague, made up notions for stereo reviewers to fill pages to sell ads.
Then comes the genius Bruno Putzeys who designed the Hypex amplifiers some 10 to 15 years ago. He put the output post filter into the feedback loop, and thereby nullifying its effect. He also added more gain which allowed it to in turn have more feedback, linearizing the response to near state of the art.
Sorry, but, I have heard this Putzey goof’s sterile sounding sht bro... It sounds sterile and lousy as sht...Ugh, i can only imagine this paired with your sterile Revel and what a world of sterility you remain in, unfortunately.
My condolences though (once you go sterile, ya never come back, i suppose).
So other than measuring a bunch of tones, what else constitutes a “great”speaker? How do you measure that? Surely you can hear a Cornwall has better Macro dynamics than a Harbeth right? Horses for courses. I’m curious all the different parameters you can measure bud.? And fast is absolutely a speaker attribute.
Nope you said dynamics is how loud a speaker can play Amir.. that’s not dynamics. So dynamics don’t exist then? Your answers were very poor BTW.
An important component of "perceived" dynamics is dropping your room’s noise floor as low as possible. It will REQUIRE tailored construction for that purpose, solutions for hvac noise, treatments, etc. Otherwise, you could keep cranking the volume knob and only go deaf.
Another thing is when you have drivers that are designed to hit 130db without breaking a sweat, it may sound very clean and detailed (low distortion, no hint of compression etc) when you play it at 85, 90db. Mark Levinson’s M1 which is 100+ dB sensitive is an example and it is essentially a pro audio speaker. There are other higher end pro speakers that fall in that category, etc. It can add to this "perception" of dynamics. This guy wouldn’t have had such an experience with his 86db sterile Revel salon (just not that kinda speaker). He probably just cranks the Revel in a noisy living room and doesn’t know a whole lot.
Anything he doesn’t know doesn’t exist, apparently. That’s the definition of a backwardass scientist, engg undergrad (gpa=2.0).
really good at picking out what u want to defend aren’t ya.
again:
“ Surely you can hear a Cornwall has better Macro dynamics than a Harbeth right? Horses for courses. I’m curious all the different parameters you can measure bud.? And fast is absolutely a speaker attribute. “
“Nope you said dynamics is how loud a speaker can play Amir.. that’s not dynamics. So dynamics don’t exist then? “
also these were not answers to any level of any sane persons satisfaction.
1: DO YOU BELIEVE DYNAMICS IN A SPEAKER IS A THING?
2: HOW DO YOU MEASURE SUCH DYNAMICS (assuming you think it’s a real thing)
3: YOU REALLY DONT THINK FAST IS A THING WHEN IT CONES TO SPEAKERS?
“ Surely you can hear a Cornwall has better Macro dynamics than a Harbeth right? Horses for courses. I’m curious all the different parameters you can measure bud.? And fast is absolutely a speaker attribute. “
“Nope you said dynamics is how loud a speaker can play Amir.. that’s not dynamics. So dynamics don’t exist then? “
also these were not answers to any level of any sane persons satisfaction.
1: DO YOU BELIEVE DYNAMICS IN A SPEAKER IS A THING?
2: HOW DO YOU MEASURE SUCH DYNAMICS (assuming you think it’s a real thing)
3: YOU REALLY DONT THINK FAST IS A THING WHEN IT CONES TO SPEAKERS?
Refer to earlier comment on how to drop the room’s noise floor to improve the "perception" of dynamics. Talk to guys like Dennis Foley (Acoustic Fields), Poes Acoustics, Anthony Grimani, etc about how to redo the construction, drywall, studs, hvac vents and so on.
And yes, there is very much a thing called a faster speaker playing the same notes. A few pages ago, I even hinted to the ASR simpleton how he would start to go about measuring it (atleast one aspect of it)
Such a speaker will let you perceive the dynamic contrasts better -> give you a better hint of the silence tied to the space in-between, your room’s low noise floor, etc when you’re playing music. For example, Borresen would fall in that category of speaker.
This simpleton will keep doubling down when he doesn’t know about something, keeping his minions in the darkness. I guess it is tied to his livelihood, pretending to be a know it all (so, it is what it is)..
PsAudio DirectStream MK1 in 2019 rated 76 almost at the bottom
I really want to thank @amir_asr again for his thoughtful responses to my questions but it's pretty apparent that there is a lot more to sound reproduction than just measurements. Am I biased toward my own system? Of course I am. I've spent years getting it to this point and to me it produces the a sound signature that I like. Can a $80 DAC compete with a $6000 DAC? Of course it can't. The differences go way beyond sighted bias. While the SMSL SU-1 does a lot of things well it approaches music like performing brain surgery with a hammer.
I A/Bd the dacs using two different sources. The first was a PI2AES using the Coax to the SMSL vs the AES/EBU to the DirectStream both using fairly short cables. When switching between inputs when both sources were connected to the DirectStream they were indistinguishable so I consider it a fair comparison and much easier to A/B as I could just select the input and the amp and adjust the volume. The differences were much more noticeable when using the PI2AES as the SMSL DAC was much grainier and less refined.
The other source was a fanless PC using upscaler software. The SMSL has the advantage on paper as it will support higher frequencies of both DSD and PCM than the Directstream but even with that advantage the DirectStream's vocals sounded real vs the SMSLs rendition that would sometimes veer into what sounded like the singer was using autotune.
To be honest the $80 SMSL surprised me on how good it actually sounded. The bass went low and was tight. It had good extension and no noticeable background noise. On the other hand the PSAudio was a $6000 DAC when new. Even it hasn't sounded the same over its' lifespan as there have been several software updates to keep improving it. While not a blind test, I believe that measuring better does not mean sounding better and the differences here go way beyond slight bias as they should, comparing the costs.
PSAudio Direct Stream MK 1 vs SMSL SU-1 Fanless PC upsampling to DSD.
Nnenna Freelon
Straighten up and fly right
The differences in these two presentations is so obvious that I'm confident I could walk in the room with this song playing and easily identify which DAC was being used. The SMSL has the frequency response and the bass is there as is separation. The Take 6 backup vocalist do come from different locations left, left center right center and right but the presentation lacks depth. It's as if sharpness was turned way up like what happens in photo editing. Everything is flattened and all the hues are lost. The vocals have that digital quality that are almost like they are straining. With the PSAudio the Take 6 vocalists step into the room the finger snaps are in a location on the sound stage and not just snaps on a plane. There was some special engineering on this song that gives it a quality that SMSL just doesn't capture.
Woong San
Round Midnight
I will admit it was more difficult to discern the differences between the DACs on this song. The SMSL was able to capture the frequencies of the bass but still not its body. The notes were there but with the DirectStream you could hear the notes resonate within the instrument. Woon San's voice has an almost whisper quality on this song which was lost on the SMSL.
Linda Ronstadt & Emmylou Harris
Sweet Spot
No contest here. The SMSL was way more forward and harsh. This song has a snare drum where all the intimacies were masked and shoved forward while on the DirectStream the skins rang and again occupied space. I used a sound meter app to make sure the volumes were the same. The SMSL sounded louder and it wasn't lacking in frequency response but its' inability to retrieve detail performed as should be expected at that price point.
There is a definite audible difference in DACs and I can reliable state DACS do not sound the same. While the SMSL is rated in the excellent category in 2023 in 2019 the PSAudio DirectStream was rated poor almost at the very bottom.
So a quotes like
DACs have massively come down in price while sharply increasing performance. If you don’t need balanced out, an $80 SMSL DAC will clean the clocks of many high-end DACs and provide full transparency to source content you are playing.
and
If you mean all measured impairments are below threshold of hearing in both devices, then yes, in a controlled, level matched, repeated test, listeners would not be able to reliably tell them apart.
in this instance and from my experience these statements are very misleading and outright wrong. There is a reason that people buy high end expensive DACs and it's not because they are being misled by sight bias or duped by snake oil salesmen. I recently watched a youtube reviewer and he compared DACs for over a month without being able to differentiate between the two but after a while the differences started to appear. This comparison isn't that. The differences are immediately obvious and way beyond subtle differences and bias. I'm sorry Amir but for sound quality price matters more than numbers, believe me I wish it wasn't true but in this case and on sound quality alone your panther has lost it’s head.
I'm sorry Amir but for sound quality price matters more than numbers, believe me I wish it wasn't true but in this case and on sound quality alone your panther has lost it’s head.
First, thank you for the constructive tone of your response. 😀
"Listening Tests
For subjective testing, I chose to use the recently reviewed and superb Monoprice Monolith THX 887 Balance Headphone Amplifier. This headphone amp has vanishingly low distortion and hence is completely transparent to DACs being tested. For the alternative DAC, I used my everyday Topping DX3 Pro 's line out RCA to Monolith. I then used the XLR input to connected the DirectStream DAC. Once there, I played a 1 kHz tone and used my Audio Precision analyzer to match levels using PS Audio's volume control. PS Audio claims perfection there ("bit perfect") so I figured they can't complain about that. The final matching was 0.3 dB difference between the two.
I started the testing with my audiophile, audio-show, test tracks. You know, the very well recorded track with lucious detail and "black backgrounds." I immediately noticed lack of detail in PerfectWave DS DAC. It was as if someone just put a barrier between you and the source. Mind you, it was subtle but it was there. I repeated this a few times and while it was not always there with all music, I could spot it on some tracks.
Next I played some of my bass heaving tracks i use for headphone testing. Here, it was easy to notice that bass impact was softented. But also, highs were exaggerated due to higher distortion. Despite loss of high frequency hearing, I found that accentuation unpleasant. WIth tracks that had lisping issues with female vocals for example, the DS DAC made that a lot worse."
In my case, my findings match the measurements. Output transformers are adding significant amount of distortion:
You can see this effect in complex waveform of 32-tone test signal:
Here is the kicker: the designer whose prototype was brought to market by PS Audio, admitted using inferior transformer!
So you pay $6,000 for a DAC and there is still no room to use a proper transformer???
Knowing the source of distortion through my measurements allowed me to focus my listening tests, in this case, bass heavy tracks to better detect them. Otherwise you are just shooting in the dark.
in this instance and from my experience these statements are very misleading and outright wrong.
What makes your subjective listening experience right, and mine wrong? The SMSL DAC I recommended doesn't have any of the above impairments. I highly suggest you repeat your test, this time please match levels, do it blind and repeat at least 10 times and see if you can identify your DAC 9 out of 10 times. If the difference is obvious sighted, then this should be easy.
And no, I am not saying you are biased. I am saying you are human. And humans are not capable of performing such tests properly without controls in place.
is that the same song 10 times or 10 different songs?
My poor wife... this is going to cost me more than I paid for the DAC.
The issue is the gain and getting them to match blindly. I'm running them both directly into my integrated amp so it's easy to switch sources the problem is the gain is much higher on the SMSL which doesn't have a volume control if it was the other way around I could set it on the PSAudio and then just switch back and forth. I do have a preamp that that has the option of a passive attenuation and can match them that way but that could alter the outcome by introducing additional factors??? I'll give it a go and am pretty positive on certain tracks I can get 10 out of 10 while there are other tracks that don't have such obvious markers and I'm not as familiar with which might be able to trip me up on occasion but I"m game.
I am very interested the results of your test although I’m pretty sure you will pass it with flying colors unless you are hearing impaired. Amir will find some reason your test was invalid and the 80 buck China dac is superior.
@amir_asr@erik_squires and all the ships as sea. Only 14 more posts to hit the milestone of 1000. And what have we learned? Absolutely nothing IMHO. We all knew that ASR likes to use measurements and we already knew a whole lot of Agon members don't care for Amir's methods. Has anyone changed sides? I doubt it. Is continuing the back and forth ad nauseam proving anything. I seriously doubt that too. Isn't it time for everyone to put on their big boy/girl pants and get on with their life now? Yes I know I don't have to read this thread but for some reason it bugs me to be associated with a group that carries on this way. Let's all go back to discussing things that really matter. Like tighter bass with a better power cable. 🤣
We did learn one significant thing for you all to chew on. Amir uses software to identify mention of ASR so he can jump in and correct misinformation. Let that sink in. That is someone driven by massive ego self absorbed narcissism.
"Amir uses software to identify mention of ASR so he can jump in and correct misinformation."
Not sure why that equates to "massive ego self absorbed narcissism."
Amir is a bit more invested than us average jokers posting here, so he is apparently using technology to make sure his brand is properly represented and so he can weigh in when he feels it is not. That is vigilance and not a big deal to me. The name calling and vilification around here is, to me, a much bigger deal.
so he is apparently using technology to make sure his brand is properly represented and so he can weigh in when he feels it is not.
Disagreement with ASR or methods or reviews Amir performs is valid commentary by others. Nothing to do with Amir making sure his brand is properly represented. Cut and paste ASR charts, graphs, and commentary ad nauseum along with telling everyone they are wrong and only Amir knows best. Nobody can trust their own brain, preference, or judgement is the pinnacle of arrogance.
Vigilance - NO. Amir has his own forum for the promotion of his measurements. Taking over a thread in another forum, arguing with everyone is not vigilance.
Personally I’ve acquired 3 very high value, lower cost items reviewed by ASR and each worked out very well.
In one case I already owned a product by a company that makes several products positively reviewed on ASR to various degrees so ASR helped confirm what I already knew and have mentioned here on occasion: The $70 amp I bought before even knowing ASR existed was a big time overachiever, shockingly able to drive KEF ls50s no problem whereas some other way more expensive amps I have tried there failed miserably.
There is one other much pricier item on my radar screen currently that ASR ranks very high but they are not alone by a long shot there.
Live and learn!
If an expensive product measures poorly but also floats one boat, that’s fine. We all have different requirements. That does not make the technical data any less true or useful. Well informed decisions are always better than those lesser informed.
@facten Thanks, but apparently it means nothing. The very next post goes on to bad mouth Amir. Who Fu&#king cares!!!!!!! This forum is really turning me off. Hey, maybe that's Amir's evil scheme. Expose enough Agon members as narrow minded self centered idiots and we all quit the site. Yes, that must be it. Amir has found a way to make Agon implode. It's pure genius. 🤣 🤣 😭
We did learn one significant thing for you all to chew on. Amir uses software to identify mention of ASR so he can jump in and correct misinformation.
What? I don't use any such things. I said this forum sends me summary of active threads and when I see ASR as a thread title, I click and see what you all are saying. I sometimes ignore them but if people are typing fiction, then I post corrections.
I have said it before and say it again: I am here because you all are choosing to discuss ASR or me and saying things that are not true. Otherwise what you say or do doesn't interest me.
Let that sink in. That is someone driven by massive ego self absorbed narcissism.
What needs to sink in is some folks desire to keep talking about me rather than audio.
Nobody can trust their own brain, preference, or judgement is the pinnacle of arrogance.
I am glad you said "brain" rather than "ears." We are finally make progress. When your brain synthesizes an experience, it uses so many factors beside sound:
You need to find a way to avoid this or forever you are living an auditory illusion.
That's quite funny. To prove it's not rigged, just tell yourself to listen for "Brain Storm" both times and that's what you hear. I remember another one like this where an LP was played backwards. At first you hear nothing but gibberish. Then it was suggested you will hear "she has a dead rat in her mouth" WTF!!! But sure enough, it was crystal clear on the second listen once the idea had been planted.
To prove it's not rigged, just tell yourself to listen for "Brain Storm" both times and that's what you hear.
It is remarkable how the awareness does not help. I was once helping my codec team at Microsoft test a new version of the encoder. They subjected me to a blind test and I, with full conviction, told the team which version was better. Only to have my codec team manager tell me the files were identical! I then listen, and both version sound the same. Then I imagine I can hear a difference and repeated: remarkably, I could hear the difference again!!!
It is an easy enough experiment. Copy one of your music filers and then listen to the two. Try to focus hard and invariably you will hear differences in the copy!
@amir_asrthe whole concept of stereo is an illusion. Do you realize that none of this equipment sounds exactly like unamplified live music, so what is the actual reference if it's not unamplified music?
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
