Every time I’ve experimented on my Tannoys, they’ve sounded better bi-wired. They’re an ideal use case for symmetric 50/50 bi-wire: a 2-way with 2nd order crossover at 1.1 kHz, which gives a much closer split of high/low energy than most speakers.
My conceptions from these experiments are as follows:
- When biwiring I like at least 12awg per half (12awg high + 12awg low), or else the sound is not as rich & weighty as I prefer
- I like a lot of silver (50% or more) in the cable, or I start to miss detail (especially with Audioquest cables)
- When not bi-wiring, high quality jumpers absolutely matter. Tannoys came with thin Acrolink jumpers, which are supposed to be good quality but sound awful. I also have some thick VanDenHul jumpers which sound decent-ish. But Audioquest’s Jupiter jumpers (pure silver) are best of all.
I tried AQ Thunderbird Zero (100% copper), without matching biwire cable, and it didn’t work well for me, even with the premium Jupiter jumpers - I was missing too much detail versus my older silver cables. I’d like to explore the new AQ line with proper bi-wire partner cables, but quite honestly the Thunderbird Zero experience damped my enthusiasm. The hyped "Zero" tech wasn’t enough to make up for that, at least. Also they have a real problem with these new braids going hairy/fuzzy and looking like crap :(
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I have experimented and I prefer bi-wiring. Enjoy the journey!
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I have Vandersteens as well.......separate cables for each leg.....2 wires for the highs, 2 wires for the lows....
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My Revel`s wiring diagram wants the amp connected to the 'HIGH' terminals.
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My Monitor Audio Silver 8s sound better bi-wired.
My Vandersteen 2Ce Sig IIs sound better bi-wired
My B&W 803 D3s sound better bi-wired
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Bass has the most energy, therefore power requirement is also highest. Terminate at the bass, then jumper to treble/mid for single cables.
I found copper has a darker quality, silver plated copper sounds good to me, and it's a little cheaper than pure silver.
Silver plated copper doesn't suffer contamination caused by moisture or other chemicals that leach from carpet, so the cable joint maintains for many years without attention, other than regular tightness checks.
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What I have learned is that it is actually the midrange that deserves the main cable. Now in almost all applications this means wire to the highs first, if you consider them high and low.
In a true three way speaker it is wiring to the "mid and highs' first then jumper to the lows.
In my system I believe two identical wires of good quality are superior to one good cable and jumpers.
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@sdw :
Do you think two speaker runs are better than bi-wiring with one cable?
Yes I do. Based on my own experiments, various speaker cable configurations. To my ears. Having said this, I have no measurements, or double blind tests to show to back this up 😂😉🤦♂️
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nonoise. I completely agree with you . |
@thyname "And I do use two speaker runs from my amp to my speakers. My amp has dual speaker taps."
One question and one answer follows:
1. Do you think two speaker runs are better than bi-wiring with one cable?
2. My amps are two PS Audio M1200 mono-blocks and my speakers are B&W 802/D2.
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@boxer12 : no worries whatsoever. I know this because I own B&W Diamonds 😉
And I do use two speaker runs from my amp to my speakers. My amp has dual speaker taps
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@thyname - You are correct good sir... They do suggest using the top posts on the 802D in the manual. My mistake 🙁. Maybe that is why I heard such an improvement when bi-wiring mine. FWIW, they do recommend bi-wiring in the manual though.
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@sdw : OP, what is your amp? And your speakers?
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One great cable is better than two lessor cables.
I totally agree with this.
With the 802D's I believe they suggest to run the wire to the bottom jacks, then jumper(s) to the top jacks.
Any sources for this? I believe this to be false. Speaker cables to HF first, then jumpers to LF. I apologize if I am mistaken
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As always, there are several variables involved. Some systems simply reveal it better than others, and some people are more patient when listening...it can be subtle and hard to notice, but once you do hear it, you won’t "unhear it". It's more likely to impact sound stage than tonal balance, so it's easier to miss. Critical listening is a skill that’s separate from hearing ability, and can be honed.
I say try it and see for yourself.
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Contrary to most of the other opinions here, I say biwire works. It's easy to tell the difference if you biwire one speaker and don't the other. Can A/B just by walking from one to the other. Using Martin Logan Request which are highly resolving and Audioquest Type 8 splitting one cable's wires (has 8 conductors) to biwire and leaving the other cable intact, it was eminently obvious that all the components of the program on the biwire side had better separation and clarity. When high and low frequency travels on the same wire the bass energy distorts the treble energy. Biwire eliminates that problem. As usual it's a matter of everyone can say otherwise but I heard it easily for myself so I can not be convinced otherwise. It's exactly the "cables don't make a difference" argument. All you can do is feel sorry for the people who can't hear it.
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Also have found tip top jumpers is all yah need. (All I do) I have tried connecting to treble and base and can’t tell any difference.
A while back there was much to do about doubling up on speaker wires. ( double sets/runs) Not sure where that landed. Bueller? Bueller?
Happy Ike Quebec’s birthday y’all.
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OP: With the 802D's I believe they suggest to run the wire to the bottom jacks, then jumper(s) to the top jacks. Since you have both pairs... try biwire with the tells on top to see if it improves the sound after trying them individually with jumpers.
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I am using the William Tell bi wire combo with my B&W 802D3’s. Sound is wonderful.
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Thanks to everyone who replied. The comments/suggestions were very helpful and informative. I pulled the trigger today, and purchased two full-range speaker cable pairs (1) the AQ Robin Hoods and (2) AQ Thunderbirds, a step-up from the William Tells. Will try them both, and will return one.
One additional question has come up, based upon a couple responses. Several folks suggested I should connect the speaker cables to the bass speaker posts, and then jumper to the treble posts. AQ's US retail price book, on page 23, suggests the opposite, for 3 way speakers (I have B&W 802/D2's). Thoughts?
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I've found bi-wire to sound better with my speakers (B&W 802D's) than jumper(s).
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I would PM member ctsooner.
He owns the WT Silvers and probably auditioned the Robin Hoods, too.
And, much depends upon the speakers/equipment you are using.
My own experience is with Vandersteen speakers. When I heard the William Tell's, I was astounded by the increase in 'clarity', as well as enhancement of the bass.
FWIW, though I never considered cables to be something that would affect sound reproduction significantly, auditioning the William Tell's made a believer out of me. The stuff Garth at AQ is making is really a game changer.
Bob
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Hello,
Typically you want to use the full cable going to the bottom binding posts because those are the drivers that need the most current to move them properly. If you split the cable in half you are halving that gauge. Sonically it does matter. A Nordost Heimdall and a Nordost Frey are really about gauge difference which costs almost 2 times as much. On most speakers you don’t need a lot of gauge to go to the top binding posts. Most people who have Nordost just buy the standard Norse jumpers which are not very thick. Once you get to Tyr 2 cables you can think about the reference jumpers which cost 3x as much. I say for that reason, for resale or you decide to get a second cable, which might be different than the other one you own you are better to buy a single and have jumpers made by AQ. Also, Just for fun try some different jumpers, even the $180 Nordost Norse jumpers. I have used them with several non- Nordost speaker cables because they are so good. My friend is using the Nordost Jumpers with the Kirmuss speaker cables. Also, you could use the cables you have right now on the bottom posts and the AQ on the top or vise- versa. I am using Straightwire Vurtuoso single with Virtuoso jumpers custom made. I also have the Crescendo jumpers but the Virtuoso sounded better in my setup. I hope this helps.
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One good cable costing say £1000 mostly trumps 2 cables costing £500 each, I would add that it is by the same cable manufacturer, so you are comparing apples with apples and you can then judge what better suits your speakers. Then you can compare equivalent value cables from other manufacturers.
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I use William Tell Zero and it is fabulous. That said, if you choose the single wire and jumper path, using William Tell Zero, Audioquest also sells high-quality jumpers that you can buy either as silver or copper wire. The terminations are your choice of either spade or banana. They are 8" in length. Both of these jumpers use the 500 series of terminations. The Audioquest website will show you all of these products.
Best to you.
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I was drawn to Bi-wire; looked it up in Get Better Sound and went with it on my former Marantz / B&W (IA/Speaker) 2 channel speaker combo. I was never able to "measure" an improvement, but it gave me peace of mind.
I've since upgraded to a McIntosh IA with Dynaudio speakers; neither of these offer the option to connect by Bi-wire. So I guess if the better components don't see an advantage, then its probably just fine to do without. But I'd probably still do it if the option existed 😉
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Good cables wired to the bass terminals with good jumpers to the treble!
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I tried a bi-wire setup and found it made no difference so I went with some very good speaker cables and same brand jumpers. FWIW
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I opted for as true bi-wire. Van den Hul Revelation - four individual runs per channel. Martin Colloms used this wire when reviewing the speakers that I currently own and these do the trick for me. If single wire is so superior why do speaker manufacturers fit four terminals ??. I have bi-amped in the past and if I could afford another power amp, I would probably do so again.
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A couple of years ago simply out of curiosity I made a set of jumpers from the AQ wire I was using...Silverline Preludes (GREAT speakers)...an utter waste of time as the stock gold plated copper jumpers were obviously far superior. I say don't bother worrying about jumpers or bi-wiring as neither does much of anything...bi-amping is another story but generally another waste of time and money.
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Unless your woofers and tweeters are physically separated, in different boxes/enclosures, one good wire with jumpers should do the trick. Happy listening!
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In fifty years of trying tweeks, many have worked, but Bi-Wiring has not!
What speakers, preamp, amp (s) do you currently have? If you buy AQ speaker cables, see if you can get a couple pairs of jumpers made of the same wire and replace the gold plated jumpers that come with a lot of speakers.
All the best.
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I started with a good pair of speaker cables and matching jumpers. (K-S Elation). Then I swapped out the jumpers for another pair of Elation cables.
Sounded better. This is apples to apples, not comparing a good cable with matching jumpers to two lower quality cables. Start with the best cables you can afford with matching jumpers for sure. You can always try adding the second pair later. And I do feel keeping with the same cable brand and model if possible.
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I’m also in the bi-wiring is a downgrade camp. The key is to use a good jumper and not the usual low quality ones that come with most speakers (which many compare bi-wiring against hence thinking it’s better).
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I like to eliminate the biwire option from my speakers (although this precludes bi-amping which is a different question). Then use one large gauge high quality cable.
I suspect most of the occasions where biwiring helped, the speaker cables were undersized.
Jerry
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I used to like two separate cables but when I tried some jumpers of the same quality as my speaker cables, I never looked back.
All the best,
Nonoise
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I can only speak to my experience with bi-wired Vandersteens, and they recommend true bi-wire (not one cable set up with internally divided wiring)... TWO separate cables. They don't like using one cable with jumpers, if true bi-wire is available. FWIW.
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Yeah, I’d have to vote for the better cable with good quality jumpers.
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One great cable is better than two lessor cables.
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Re-post from last month in another prior single vs bi-wire thread last month
Without prejudice to the effects that the absolute benefits are always system dependent, the high-end quality build OEM’s are moving away from bi-wiring in favour of shotgunned single runs and jumpers. (Bi-amping ... Different story.)
E.g. NORDOST
http://www.nordost.com/downloads/NorseJ ... ctions.pdf
CHORD
http://www.chord.co.uk/help-and-informa ... ngle-wire/
".... Many hi-fi and home cinema loudspeakers have two pairs of binding posts. This allows the speaker to be either bi-wired using two sets of loudspeaker cable or bi-amped using two amplifiers.
As a general rule (and there will always be exceptions) we tend to find that bi-wiring will open out the sound stage and increase perceived levels of detail. However, single wiring will often sound the most musically coherent.
There is also an issue with single and bi-wire speaker cables. In all the research we have carried out, a single wire speaker cable out-performs a bi-wire cable of equivalent cost.
This makes a lot of sense; the single wire speaker cable has two high quality conductors and the bi-wire cable requires four. So for a given budget, we believe that a single wire cable will always out-perform the equivalent bi-wire cable, so much so that we no longer produce dedicated bi-wire cables..."
For me, in my prior “pre-HARBETH” system, the shotgunned NORDOST Frey single-runs with matched FREY jumpers bested all bi-wire comers - full stop. The differences were not subtle.
Q what are the potential benefits if you go from a 4x4 configuration to a doubled-up 2x2 configuration? ( intuitively, a thicker single cable configuration benefits need not be expanded here )
A From Alan Shaw ( owner and designer of HARBETH)
” … So, the moral of the story is this: the most important factor of the loudspeaker cable that you should select is the amount of metal in the cable core.
More metal means lower resistance.
If the core is round (as most are) then the correlation is simple: the fatter the diameter of the metal core the better because the electrical resistance between amp and speaker will be lower.
Thin and really thin cores should be avoided regardless of how exotic the metal material is claimed as the lack of metal in the core conductor will increase resistance. That will reduce amplifier damping, effect the frequency response of the speaker and give unpredictable results that will vary from amp/speaker combination.
Do not be fooled by the diameter of the external plastic sheath: what matters is the metal content of the core. The more the better, without exception….”Without prejudice to the effects that the absolute benefits are always system dependent, the high-end quality build OEM’s are moving away from bi-wiring in favour of shotgunned single runs and jumpers. (Bi-amping ... Different story.)
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Anyway you could buy both, try each one, keep the one that you feel works best and return the other one. Everyone will have a somewhat different opinion on this. It’s not very clear cut. Sorry.
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in most (actually in all cases in my experience) cases, biwiring doesn't matter
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I prefer quality cable with jumpers of same cable, I try to avoid internal bi-wire...there is certainly no agreement on this...I believe Nordost now only sells cables with jumper, no internal bi-wire, and Vandersteen recommends dual runs, which I agree with...
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