There is the optimal and the best format HRx.I believe there is even better PCM, that’s DXD but you need a good R2R based dac to extract the best from it, not a DS based dac (that will do SACD which is flagged DSD)
Cheers George
SACD or not
I have a question regarding SACD format. I am looking to replace my CD player and noticed some CD players have the ability to process SACD and some do not. I have never heard this format and was wondering if I should consider this in my purchase. My purchase price is in the $1400 range
I know people will question why I am using CD at all. That is another discussion for another time. I still like some physical media in my listening experience.
I look forward to your comments
I know people will question why I am using CD at all. That is another discussion for another time. I still like some physical media in my listening experience.
I look forward to your comments
50 responses Add your response
I do not know what type of music you like. I think that most albums is with classic genre. But having a player that supports the most formats is maybe a wise decision. There is the optimal and the best format HRx. https://referencerecordings.com/what-is-hrx/ All the different formats as CD, HDCD, SACD, HRx, DVD-Audio, BD-Audio. All the albums may have any but are not on all of the formats. Let that be the limited factor.. So if you have a player that is playing all formats then you can pick the best sounding format that is available for a specific album. That will certainly sound better than a little better player that you are forced to choose a suboptimal format become your new player can not play the best sounding format that were available for that album. In other words a standard player that play a album on SACD. Will sound better than a super duper player that can not play SACD and force you to play CD.. |
Even if you don't plan to purchase SACDs, if you get a deck that supports that format, the built in DAC will probably need to be of higher quality, in order to decode the DSD content on the SACDs. When I was early in my journey to the higher end hardware, I purchased an NAD player and the detail I heard extracted from that unit, on "regular" CDs, was noticeably better, as a result of having a better DAC chip in the unit. |
I agree with those who have recommended Oppo. I started with a humble DV-980 and discovered the advantages of not just SACD; but DVDA, which was a really great format and there are still some available on ImportCDs.com; but also HDCD. Quit a few CDs in my collection had HDCD layers I never even know about until I put them in the Oppo. I am now up to an Oppo BDP-105 with EVS mods that cosr me about $1,300, if I recall. Besides the superior sound quality, it has the ability to stream (which I never use) and to play DSD and FLAC files which I download onto a USB thumb drive. That was a real revolution for an old vinyl guy like me. I also have an Ayre universal player that cost about $1,000 more. It sounds slightly better on CDs and SACDs; but has no USB input. Now, it may be that my ancient auditory faculties are no longer able to appreciate the full difference in SQ; but for my money I should have been satisfied with the Oppo. I also had a BDP-95, and with the exception of not supporting DSD downloads, was quite the deal. |
I would absolutely purchase a unit that supports SACD playback. While I love listening to 2.0 stereo, nothing sounds as good as a well produced multi-channel SACD with the exception of the very limited range of a Blu-Ray content that’s out there. OPPO has always been the audiophile market leader in terms of bang for buck but they’ve closed down that division. Maybe you can find one out there on Audiogon or eBay. And for what it’s worth, the single best transport that ALSO supports stereo SACD is the PS Audio DMP player, now unavailable as the company had sourced that transport tray from .....OPPO! So here again, if you can find one of these, it will blow you away. It reads music like no other device on the market. Think of it like this: if a great telescope can deliver images from 10,000,000 miles away, this DMP player can read images from a billion miles away. |
Once I figured out how to rip SACDs to DSF files a few months ago, I started to buy them. Mostly 60's and 70's Rock. I have almost 60 SACDs now. The only SACDs I buy are ones that are supposed to have the best masterings and sound the best of all digital releases. There was no way I was going to buy a super expensive transport to play SACDs. Heck, I don't even have a CD transport. I rip all of my discs and play them on my 2 channel system using Roon. The SACDs I have do sound incredible on my 2 channel setup. |
There is no problem getting any kind of music style on SACD. All you have to do is know what you are looking for and then go to a place which sells them, like Acoustic Sounds: https://store.acousticsounds.com/c/8/Hybrid_SACDs or Music Direct: https://www.musicdirect.com/music/optical-disc?category=Optical%2520Disc&format=Hybrid%2520SACD&... Etc...…………... |
https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1834132?highlight=Reference%2BRecordings%2B As I posted above, they've now been nominated 2020 Grammy's 🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 Reference Recordings Is Proud to Announce 11 GRAMMY® Nominations Across 8 Categories! |
Tomcy, no ill will intended, but reading back your posts it isn’t sufficiently clear to me that you are saying that Classical SACDs can be had at more reasonable rates non Classical. Anyway , I think that we are in agreement there, now that I better understand you. I only own 2 non Classical SACDS, Kind of Blue and an earlier SACD incarnation of Sgt Pepper (I understand that the latest remastering of Sgt. Pepper is an improvement). If those 2 discs are indicative of non Classical SACD, I would agree that they don’t have much to offer compared to Redbook |
I I have owned an SACD player for many years. With the right combination of gear and SACDs, they can be quite pleasing. I enjoy many diverse genres of music and some SACDs make you wonder why there is not more content available. For example, Time Out by Dave Brubeck is amazing. As has been noted by others, classical music is the main driver. If you can find enough content in the music you like, it is a no brained to me. I have been using a McIntosh MVP871 for probably 10 years, so I am not one to make hardware suggestions as I am not current about more recent players. Happy Listening and Good Luck |
As a general comment I think the Marantz sacd players are built better than the Sony. I had a Modwright Sony ES5400 and the transport tray was a weak point. I now have a Modwright Marantz SA 8005 and it is built very well. I can't comment on the sound difference since I never heard them prior to the mods. However, the after mod sound of the Marantz is better than the Sony with the same modifications. |
That Arcam player looks pretty good. My question would be is there a DAC/Transport combo that could beat the sound quality of the Arcam for redbook, forgetting the SACD? I don’t think in terms of functionality, you will beat that, except for of course a decent universal player that does UHD Blu-Ray which is top tier disc sound right now (as far as I know). As far as somewhat current, this Pioneer fits the bill as I’m sure some Oppo did. https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-Elite-UDP-LX500-Universal-Player/dp/B07HCL34WK I have a very low-end DSD SACD machine and some discs even shine through there. But for some music it just doesn’t make much difference, despite the big story. So I stopped at about 50 after ten years or so. If I was doing it again, I’d go universal as Blu-Ray audio has some deals as someone posted recently. But it depends what type of music you are after as well as mentioned. |
I would get a player that can do SACD so you can hear for yourself. Comparing regular and SACD versions of same music, i.e. Oscar Peterson 'For My Friends' series, my perception/conclusion/self-delusion about SACD is that the noise floor seemed lower, a night without moon or stars, an imaginary black hole. If you concentrate to hear a difference. What fun is that. And, total lack of noise doesn't make the recording better. They were great recordings to begin with. It is more about how the content moves you, if the recording personnel did a great job. Thwn, how much involvement your system can provide? Prior to other tweaks, I highly recommend remote balance control, apply a speck to some recordings, bask in the real difference it can make. |
Once I had acquired over eighty SACD's, I began to feel the need to have an SACD player in reserve, and replaced a Marantz SA-8004 with a Denon DCD-A100. It was a nice step up--for redbook as well as DSD playback. I started out being excited about SACD per se, but came to believe that mastering quality matters more and it is the combination that excels above all. |
Regarding the cost of SACDS, a few weeks ago I bought about $300 worth from Berkshire Record Outlet, at about $5 each, primarily Pentatone and Audite Labels. Last night I bought another large haul of Channel Classics from Presto Classical that we’re being sold for $8-$12/disc as sale. Both of the companies charge a flat fee for shipping, and not per disc as Amazon does. In my two channel system I output the DSD layer of the SACD from my Oppo 105 transport over HDMI into my Bryston DAC3. As some else has said in this thread it is the best digital replay I have ever heard. I also have two HT systems in my home with midfi equipment and the multichannel experience is also something special, elevating the experience considerably. The best recorded multichannel discs don’t try to have the same output from the surrounds, instead adding ambience and reverb to simulate the effect of sound echoing from the back walls in a real concert hall. The best of these are remarkably effective. |
You are better off buying a universal disc player. A later model that plays Blu-Ray and DVD, multiple zones, plus CD, SACD, mp3, wav, flac, etc. You don't have to spend $1400. to get a good unit. I bought my Oppo UDP-203 for $500. when they announced they were discontinuing them. It is an amazing player and well worth the money. SACD's are impressive, in that many have multi-channel capabilities. You would need a home theater, multi-channel system to take advantage of this. If you like classic rock , classical music, oldies, etc., and you like multi-channel, SACD's are great. Audiophile companies like Audio Fidelity and Analogue Productions are constantly coming out with new releases. If you are just listening to stereo or mono recordings, most people couldn't tell the difference between hearing a CD or SACD. They may think they can, but they can't. I've done and performed comparisons with lots of different people. The human ear can only hear a fraction of what even a CD is capable of. |
Redbook standard is 16/44.1. What is hi-res Redbook??Thing like the cd’s from the "Reference Recording" label, which is 25/96 redbook pcm also DXD. And they do sound superb, if you have an R2R multibit dac that can do up to 24/96 decoding, eg: any dac with PCM1704 nearly all discrete R2R multibit dacs like my MSB. Holo, Denafrips, ect ect Cheers George |
If you are interested in classical on SACD, jump right in. If not, do some research before you buy a player. SACDs are more expensive than cds or hi-res streaming. You’re going to pay at least $20 for each SACD, most are $30 and up, and $50 and up for Japanese and out-of-print SACDs. Selection is pretty limited. Mofi and AP put out a handful of SACDs a year and often those are delayed for a year to several years after an original release date is set. At this point, I recommend paying a few hundred dollars for a streamer and $15 to $20 a month for all the hi-res files you can stream or get a really good CD player and lots of currently very cheap CDs. You’ll have a much greater selection and sound that is as good as or better than SACD in many cases. |
All the great and informative posts. When it comes to buying used, remember that all these CD/SACD drives may fail after a certain number of hours played. Of course, anything can fail, but drives are a weak spot here. If thinking of buying used, take a peek at SONY SCD-XA5400ES. It is a bit old and it still holds the price unusually high, but it may be for a reason. I have never compared it to any of the players mentioned in earlier posts, but it is a good one. There is one on US Audio Mart right now for $1100. (I am not affiliated with the seller in any way, just noticed the ad.) |
It’s true that not every SACD sounds better than a Redbook layer on the same disc, there are some labels that are known for their consistency in quality with SACD. Channel Classics and BIS are two labels that consistently produce outstanding SACD. Although a bit quirkier, the German Label Tacet and the Norwegian Label 2L are also outstanding, and simultaneously release their products in Blu Ray Audio. Pentatone is another label with an extensive SACD offerings. Most of them are great but there is some variability, as their catalog is divided between recycled Quad recordings from the seventies and newer fare recorded in the last 20 years. Not all of the old Quad retreads are recommendable—the Masur/Leipzig Gewandhaus Beethoven Symphony cycle, for example. OTOH, Pentatone Brahms cycle with Janowski/Pittsburgh is superb, with a great deal of Hall ambience and detailing without spotlighting. |
I don't listen to SACDs very often. Some of the ones I have sound worse (some of the Japanese SHM SACDs I have) while some sound great. I haven't done any back to back comparisons of a SACD and the same CD. I think it's a nice to have. I have a Marantz KI-Pearl and it sounds amazing with both standard CD and SACD, given a good sounding disc to start with. I would focus on getting the best sounding and most reliable player you can and if it has SACD capabilities, that's a plus. If it doesn't, that could be a plus also, you won't go spending a bunch of money on SACD releases, which generally cost more and may or may not sound "better" than a standard CD release of the same album (or a streaming version). |
schmitty1, Are you planning to buy SACD’s? If the answer is yes, then you should look into a Marantz SACD/CD player. There are few listings on Audiogon, check them out. I currently own a Marantz SA-11S2 and both SACD and CD playback is superlative. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9dc1j-marantz-sa-14s1-cd-sacd-players https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9i8dh-marantz-sa-11s1-cd-sacd-players |
My opinion is that if you don't already have a lot of SACDs, your money would be better spent on a dedicated redbook player or perhaps the Cambridge transport and a nice dac like the Denafrips Aries or something like that. I have a lot of SACDs and have never found an inherent superiority. Plus, lower-priced multi players do not, IMO, do as well with Redbook CDs as dedicated players. |
