Ready, set, comment! Speaker cables don’t make a difference?
Please see the link below for my thoughts on this controversial topic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogging_a_dead_horse#:~:text=Flogging%20a%20dead%20horse%20(alternati.... |
Very revealing, @jperry ! It makes helps us all reach this state. |
This guy and E. Winters go on and on and on.. Broken record. They will not make a difference to him, GOOD. They do make a difference to a lot of other folks. Do cables need to cost a fortune? NO! Do they make a difference in MY systems? YES.. If he can't hear the difference between a Helix cable and Zip cord, guess what? Save the money.. Be happy and make another video.. What ever makes your pickle squirt! Don't worry, BE happy... Regards |
He is catering to the home theater audience exclusively at this point. And they like trashing cables to make themselves feel better, plus honestly it's good business for his channel. There's a reason this guy publishes at least 5 videos per year on this very topic. Makes perfect business sense! Many years ago before I discovered 2 channel stereo, I went through a bunch of HT components including Polk Audios, Def Techs, Pioneer, Marantz, etc. I tried a few mid-priced power cords and speaker cables at the time, and concluded that cables typically don't matter with HT systems. |
Everything makes a difference. It’s just a matter of how much and if it matters or not. Some things matter way way less than others. Speaker wires fall into that category IMHO compared to all the other usual suspects for delivering good sound. That’s the good news. The bad news is making things BETTER not just somehow different is actually a much tougher nail to hammer. Then there is that diminishing returns thing.....that’s where it really gets hairy. Splitting hairs can be fun! Plus it never ends! Double bonus! Have at it! It’s just a matter of time and perhaps money you feel is worthwhile to invest. |
I used to not believe in speaker cables making a difference and now I’m not so sure. I was hanging out at Audio Connection on Saturday listening to tunes. Someone swapped out I believe Audioquest Rocket (?) for Robin Hood series cables and the difference was not subtle. So I’m beginning to rethink my stance on the subject. |
@millercarbon said, There’s no controversy. There’s only people who know, and people with head stuck deep in sand. Look around, this is the case with everything. Situation normal.Right. There are the illuminati and there is everyone else. My point in posting this was not because I think this debate is a live controversy, but, as with all kinds of debates-that-shouldn’t-be-debates, there is a constant hunger on the part of some to share the truth. Happens on Agon all the time. (I’ve seen here, countlessly repeated as a lesson-to-educate-novitiates, that "everything matters," etc.) So, this post is for anyone who wants to wander over into another camp to throw down with folks over there. The Audioholics videos get referred to here quite a lot, so perhaps people might want to mix it up, soccer hooligan style, over there. Don’t care about doing that? Skip it. Free country, last time I checked. |
Throw down. Good one. I never noticed before, but it looks like the guy is trying to position himself as the Long Dong Silver of speaker cables. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR12Ttuxobs |
This is another all-too-often repeated pop-up, with a predictable subject matter outcome posing an irritation to at least 50% of the forum readers. It is just another same ol’ theme post with a well-travelled history of going nowhere outcomes in prior same theme posts. Several other audio forums have already warned ALL discussion forum participants that fostering another “cable war” [by pontificating that cables don’t make a difference or vice-versa ...] may get the OP suspended. Repeating the behaviour will, “ Internet Troll - Wikipedia In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts flame wars or intentionally upsets people on the Internet. This is typically done by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog), with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion. This is typically for the troll's amusement, or to achieve a specific result such as disrupting a rival's online activities or manipulating a political process....” |
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There are cables so good they will transform a system. Night and day. Whether or not you will notice is up to you. If you think as I do that listening is a skill, then this means you can get better and learn to appreciate what I'm talking about and this news is major encouragement. Or if you think listening is an innate ability, then you are as good as you ever will be, and so being unable to hear a difference can save yourself a lot of money. Again, major encouragement. The only downside I can see is if you think it important to get others to admit they hear only what little you are able to discern. That my friend will never happen and so you are right to be discouraged after all. |
I'm new to high end HiFi and i've heard both sides of the argument. Even heard of an experiment where someone tested both a coat hanger and bare copper wire and blind listeners couldn't tell the difference. I'm planning my own test soon. The key I think is in having someone swap the cables back and forth without telling you what you're listening to. If you consistently hear a difference and it points everytime to high end cables then there's your proof. Otherwise nothing else matters in my book. |
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Anyone who thinks that different brand ,quality , and type don’t make a difference ,Quit spending monies on Audio .Invest in a hearing aid !! just use the power cords that come in with the electronics and use the $5 rca cables thst come with your CD player, speaker cables , Home depot has a spool with your name on it. |
Opinions are personal views. Everyone has them about everything. When you find someone who shares yours it's gratifying in the sense that confirms that yours is most accurate. The subject of speaker cables is another one that can only open up a never ending debate. It's often informational to hear opinions from others since it may lead to an avenue of discovery beneficial to someone else. However, this post may or may not offer good advice to some reader(s).but I find that this, and many other, posts are created to generate a myriad of responses. The perfect speaker cable was locked in the trunk of a junked car and deposited in a junkyard in Scranton, Pa. Kinda like the lost ark Indiana Jones lost track of. Just my opinion. Carry on debaters. |
Speaker cables, or any audio cables for that matter are not supposed to "make a difference." Point A to Point B. Shorter cables are best if you can. My brand of choice is Furutech because all of their products are subject to excellent quality control. The cable argument is valid because people spend a lot of money on cables. After spending all that money, you are expecting your system to sound better. So it will - to you. |
@akg_ca I was certainly not starting yet another debate about cables. If you look at my original post you will see that I was alerting members that there was a video about cables on another channel about to happen. I presented that information in case anyone wanted to debate people on a different site. Many people here have a good arguments and good experience with cables and it is possible that they might inform people who might be misinformed by Gene. So if you think that is trolling then I really don’t think you understand why I posted what I did. Perhaps you think that what Gene does is trolling? If that is what you meant then I misunderstood what you said — and my apologies. |
If you want to know why they sound different maybe delve into the science. Read the blog or listen to the long video. It's not as amusing as arguing though:-) https://www.iconoclastcable.com |
This guy "Gene" from "Audioholics" according to his web page is an audio salesman who charges $100USD/hour for his services so it it clear, apparent, and obvious that he is just trying to sell stuff and at a very high price for his services so maybe that is why he promotes cheap components because it keeps the customers costs down because he has to add in his fee. |
In the 70’s I bought Acoustic Research speaker cables to go with my AR-3a’s: 50’ of zip cord x2 with spades as I recall. Used them for 25+ years, even with my Khorn upgrade, until my brother mailed me a pair of Monster Cables he didn’t need. To honor his gift I installed them. Years of skepticism about speaker cables making a sonic difference vanished. The sound quality improvement was obvious, consistent, .....REAL. I’ve since upgraded from Monster Cable but will never forget the difference I heard that day. |
I watch Gene, I watch the videos when he reviews RBH speakers because that’s what I use...as far as the chicken and the egg argument, I was once on the chicken side-cables don’t matter. I started off with two channel receivers and used zip cord 18 gauge stranded cable and big Fisher Speakers...I kept moving up and using stranded cable all the way up to last year when I went and found a NAD T 758 first version, a 20 30 year old NAD CD player, a 40 year old technics turntable and replaced my freebie speaker cable with Audio Quest solid core speaker cables and bought Morrow MA 3 solid core IC’s...wow is all I can say...I had Monster and Audioquest IC’s and what a jump in sound using the linear cables...I’m replacing my cheap subwoofer cable with another Morrow...it’s not the thickness that makes a difference to me, it’s the reduction of resistance to the current traveling from the receiver or the integrated or amplifier to the speakers that allow the gear to come to life...cables make a difference when they get out of the way of the signal path...I appreciate the neutrality of my gear and the music or movie track is the only thing I hear...all of this is based on my biases but that’s just being human...so take what any reviewers state with a grain of salt and try for yourselves...many consider Morrow snake oil, and if it is its snake oil works for my taste... |
Oh my friends, speaker wires definitely can and does make a difference. The cable has to be able to deliver a clean signal with minimal loss and not pick up EMI noise along its journey. That means that the insulation can actually be more important than the wire. Stranded wires are always best because solid wire can cause something called skin effect where the signal path skirts around the outer surface of the wire only. The cables (L/R) should also be the same length. The time it takes the signal to get to the speaker should be the same. No I’m recommending that you run out and spend a bundle on a high tech set of speaker wires but a good high quality speaker cable will definitely make a difference. In retrospect to the gauge of the wire. Speaker Cable Distance vs Wire Gauge Guide Speaker Impedance 25 ft 50 ft 100 ft 4 ohms 12AWG 10AWG 8AWG 8 ohms 14AWG 12AWG 10AWG 16 ohms 16AWG 14AWG 12AWG Starwarrior Thorens Td124/Mac Mc275/Mac C2700/Manley Massive Passive/Brennan B2 |
Wow! This thread hasn’t been shut down yet. That’s an accomplishment in itself. I’ll give it another 50 posts max. Can’t see the point in resurrecting something that’s been rehashed to death 1001 times, unless it’s clickbaii. Every conceivable argument has already been posited multiple times on multiple forums. |
That was 15 mins of my life that I won't get back Here's my .02 cents In this case Gene is actually, and to use his term, the snake oil salesman And all his happy responders are the sheep he's leading right off the cliff But he has one feeble arguement in this video that is actually right so we can't technically call BS here Hear me out before ripping me a new one.... He measures the 3 cables and says the output in DB between them is so minute we can't possibly hear an audible difference Which is true......but What he's measuring, output DB, is a capability of the electronics not the cables and this is where we get to call BS on Gene and his sheep So of course most any coat hanger can deliver the capabilities the electronics are designed to In essence he's telling us spending money on cables will not playback any louder, no arguement Again a design limitation of the electronics, not the cable What he fails to compare, this is where his snake oil salesman shines We don't invest in the cables with ANY expectation that our systems will play louder What we get and expect is a broader dynamic range of the same material we've been playing for years, a more natural sound, vocals sound closer to the microphone, all of a sudden there's a casenet percussion that you've never heard, you can hear Jimmy Page drop the pick in The Rain Song on his Martin acoustic and finish the song finger picking, in a a capella you can now hear the vocalist inhale and take a breath etc etc Adding a new cable weather it be speaker, IC or power doesn't play louder but it provides us much more musical information than we'll get using spooled cable or even Monster One of the great pleasure for me when making a cable enhancement, vibration improvement, power improvement, it's allows me to hear the same tried and true music better and more complete to what the artist intended and was feeling. It expands enjoyment past the music and rings me closer to the art It's not the first time a heard the song but it's damn sure the first time I've heard it delivered with the additional enhancements and extensions So each little tweak is almost an opportunity to enjoy the same material for the first time Again guys just my .02 cents and that's another 20 mins of my life that I won't get back Happy listening and as always enjoy the journey |
I'm still waiting for the piece of test equipment to be invented that can measure the way our ears hear sound and how our brain interprets it. Until then, Audioholics and Amir can keep making videos without that piece of measuring equipment while insulting many people in the process. Especially Amir the way he is so pompous and arrogant in the way that he insults guys like Danny Richie from GR Research. Sort of a I'm right, you're wrong, you're a charlatan. As Hall and Oats put it: I can't go for that |
Rushfan - yes, this goes to the heart of the matter. How an ear receives sound is measurable. Model it like a microphone. It reacts to air pressure variations pretty much like a mic does. A mechanical matter. The signal is precisely measurable and what hits an ear is the same for everyone. This is what measurement in audio is useful for - you can accurately and objectively measure what is hitting an ear. After the signal hits the ear there is capture. Some ears are damaged goods and like a poor or dropped microphone some ears can’t respond to inputs as well as other do. This can be measured quite well through listening tests by audiologists. We all out to know our physical ear quality. And then there is interpretation of what does manage to get through. The brain gets involved. This is the bit which can not be measured. Although a person can try and describe what they perceive they are hearing, they usually do so using wholly unmeasurable terms. And because the brain is involved, all kinds of biases - especially unconscious biases - selections (preferences), perceptions, subjective descriptions, pleasures, and illusions happen. But it is indeed useful to distinguish the two components. |
Some continue to think this is rehashing a topic done to death, here. That's not what this post is doing. The idea is not to convince the measure fanatics or the die-hard Gene acolytes -- no point in that -- but to put into a public forum some of the more salient facts that audiophiles believe with good justification. As likely as not, there's some young person, interested in audio but not knowing much, who is reading the comments and trying to learn. Dropping informed comment into Gene's thread is the same kind of act that writing a letter to the editor at a newspaper was -- a way of helping someone understand other perspectives out there. Obviously, if people have time to spend debating things here, they might have time to help someone over there. That's why this post is *not* clickbait and why it's not getting shut down. @stevewharton -- very clarifying and interesting post. Exactly the kind of post -- along with other good ones like this, here -- I was thinking could be dropped into Gene's YouTube comment thread. @jasonbourne52 A tedious and boring subject! Clearly untrue as you have decided to spend your time both reading this thread and taking time to comment about it. |
