Ready, set, comment! Speaker cables don’t make a difference?

Using TARA LABS MUSE speaker cable wow big upgrade from my Furutech.

I worked as an art director / creative director in pharmaceutical advertising for 25 years. I learned how to read the clinical trials, efficacy and safety data, about the strength of placebo effects, etc.

Until I see randomized blind studies involving a cohort of at least 1,000 participants with results that show a consistent selection bias towards expensive cable interconnects that exceeds chance, I’m not going to waste my time or money on pricey brand name cable interconnects. 

The guy in the video that’s posted for discussion makes clearly reasoned sense to me. I don’t see a single person here refuting him on his own terms. The “I hear it so it must be true and if you don’t, you are an inferior listener” thing is condescending and doesn’t cut it.

If you think very expensive esoteric cables with all kinds of filters is better than pure copper 10-14 gauge wire, you need better software to listen to. The most "transparent" line level interconnect wire/cable is RG-6 coax for RCA style...you can even get compression fit RCA connectors for coax cable. For balance cable, good quality Canare Star Quad GS-4 or an equivalent Mogami or Belden is just fine, 21-22 gauge wires. 

RG-6 is about 10-15 cents a foot. The balanced professional grade stuff is $1-$2 foot preterminated with XLRs

Cables are not and should not be tone controls. That's what tone controls are for. 

How do interconnects affect speaker cables? Does it go the other way? Is it only interconnects that do this? What if there is a power cord further up the chain? What about further down the chain? Does the speaker cable make as much difference if the speaker is on cones or springs or the floor? What about the room? 

They don’t make as much of a difference if there are good interconnects further up the chain. Just my experience with a few different separate vs all in one component setups.

Speaker cables make a  ig difference.  Just disconnect them if you don’t agree and tell me what you hear

I think different cables will give you different sound, not necessarily a better or worse sound  I've had cables deep in the stage but, compress the width about cables open up the width but the stage becomes very shallow. Cables can only do as much as your components are capable of really. However, I've never spent more than $500 on a speaker cable, and I wouldn't. So I have no idea what those four figure even five figure cables might do to your system.


I went from acoustic Zen to Canare 4s11, twelve gauge wire as I set up my system differently and had to get long runs for the speaker cable. Obviously I couldn't afford 20-ft lengths of Acoustic Zen, but I really can't tell a difference with the Canare. That could be confirmation bias that could just be lack of sonic memory.


And yes I picked up on the irony of the electrons. Personally I know exactly where every electron is on the cable at any time.

I think it matters and again it will depend on the equipment you are connecting.

Higher quality gear will benefit more with a higher quality speaker cable or inter connect. If you are at the lower end of the spectrum then use a lower end cable/wire.

I have a modest system with all Simaudio components and Sonus faber Olympica Nova III and use Transparent Audio Wave cables and it sounds great.

Use what you like and spend what you like. If you are happy then good for you.

Thanks. I see that the answer to my question about whether better equipment would make your system sound better is "yes."

Any better piece of gear will do better.... And they are plenty of pieces better than mine...

For example for my dac the Denafrips very high end will do....
For my Sansui AU 7700 the Berning ZOTL would be a bargain upgrade in ratio S.Q. /price...

For my speakers it is more difficult to pick one, but i will pick a Tannoy piece like i already own....I dont want to risk a frustration because my Mission Cyrus 781 are very good already...But a high end Tannoy will beat them with a more refine British sound...

But if i add all the cost of these upgrades around 12,000 bucks perhaps 15,000, the comparison with what i have already and what the upgrading effect will do, it is way too much money for the differences...A great difference is not a huge one.... I know what a huge difference is with my own gear BEFORE and AFTER my embeddings controls, especially the acoustical one... Acoustic is a HUGE factor....Exceeding any upgrade....This is the reason why boasting about ANY piece of gear is "naive" in audio....The gear are generally not the solution, the embeddings controls are....




I already have a piano or an orchestra filling my room.... Would i pay for an improvement which will be a real one, but not so much over what i already enjoy? NO.....

The important part of my answer is not this evidence that any well designed piece of gear could be better than mine but the fact that my embeddings controls give already to me a MINIMAL experience of the high end but also a very real flavor of the high end, this at peanuts cost........

I apologize for my lenghtly reply....I know that you dont like that.... 😊

I wish you the best there is and will be....

Thanks. I see that the answer to my question about whether better equipment would make your system sound better is "yes."

Are you saying something here only about your own feelings? Or are you saying that gear doesn’t matter? In other words, are you claiming that if someone gave you much better gear than what you have -- and you did all your embedding and listening, etc. with it -- it would not sound better? If that is true, than I find your ears less trustworthy than if you simply admit that everything, properly integrated, makes a difference. So, what is your opinion, please? Could better gear -- for you -- make a difference?

Thanks for the question...

It will make me able to clarify....

There are 2 parts to my answer...

-Subjectively, i dont want to upgrade at all. because of the real cost it will be.... Even just the speakers upgrade....

-Objectively for sure at least half of the systems in the "virtual system page section" are better than one, two, and three pieces of my gear..,.

I never boasted about my gear in itself, save to say that i love it, it is very good basic wise choices or lucky one....



I am proud of my homemade solutions for my OWN system, this are those solutions that cost me much time to create that are my precious endeavour, not the GEAR....Even if i was very lucky to own this specific gear....

For sure then ANY system will gain much with good vibration controls, with a minimal decrease of the electrical noise floor, and of passive materials treatment, or of my ACTIVATED room controls...

I discovered that and i am it seems the ONLY ONE here, saying that what is essential is not SO MUCH the gear, but the way we embed it...

Then subjectively, listening ANYTHING at any price, even better system than mine , dont give me the urge to upgrade at all...

Not only because i cannot upgrade moneywise, but especially because my system IS NO MORE WAY TOO FAR BEHIND anything i know of.....Thanks to my three working embeddings dimensions controls...Not bad for a 500 bucks system...Then even if almost anything costlier beat my system or could beat my system easily, the DISTANCE between these systems and mine is no more huge at all now like it was 2 years ago.... My ratio cost/S.Q.  is then optimal...

Especially with  my last control device which is the more powerful of my tool : Helmholtz mechanical equalizer, which idea is mine, and constitued by 30 tubes and pipes from 8 feet high to a straw lenght all around the speaker HEAD to the speaker TAIL  like a SNAKE body around my room....

To undersatand this sentence read my last posts about it in my virtual system page....


The most important piece of gear is NOT a 100,000 bucks pair of speakers but only a room dedicated to your audio system.... Nothing else...For sure i am not stupid and only stupid people will claim that 50 used speakers beat very costly one....My speakers are average but good thats all.... But it is all you need for a DECENT  audiophile  pleasure if your room is acoustically boosted and under control....no more frustration for upgrading...

Any well designed speakers and system will sound good in a controlled room...



This is all i boast about , NOT about my pieces of gear specifically  like most here, even if i love my dac, speakers and amplifier.... They sounded like shit anyway few years ago....Like most audio system in a non controlled environment....Why do you think most people here dream to upgrade?



I like to express myself paradoxically but sometimes the plain simple truth is veiled behind my expression....

In this post of mine of which you extracted my sentence i was answering mijostyn who speak ALWAYS about the impossibility to trust our own ears, which is the most stupid affirmation ever written in a an audio thread and in acoustic matter....The human ears created his own world which is the basis of neurophysiological acoustic and of audiophile experience...Then i felt the obligation to CONTRAST his opinion with mine....

By the way because i never boast about any miraculous gear nor about any costly miraculous "tweaks" for solution, but only about almost no cost and homemade solutions, my proposition seems too good to be true...But they cost me TIME....Listening experiments ask for time.... It takes me 2 years full time of listening.... You can spare money but not much the time, save if you know already how and what to do it will ask for months not years like me....

My best to you and thanks for the question...

@mahgister said:

My S.Q. is so good to me that any system at any cost does not give me the urge to upgrade.... Not so much the wrong way you claim it is is’n it?....

While I completely agree that the room and educating one's ears/listening is critical, this last claim of yours is where you go too far, in my opinion. You are right that many people believe that only gear matters -- or that they believe too much in gear and spending a lot of money for gear. If they don't pay attention to the whole sound environment, they are making a mistake. That is all true. But you are willing to take these very valid points to claim that "any system at any cost" doesn't give you the urge to upgrade? Are you saying something here only about your own feelings? Or are you saying that gear doesn't matter? In other words, are you claiming that if someone gave you much better gear than what you have -- and you did all your embedding and listening, etc. with it -- it would not sound better? If that is true, than I find your ears less trustworthy than if you simply admit that everything, properly integrated, makes a difference. So, what is your opinion, please? Could better gear -- for you -- make a difference?

Is that really his chin?

@Mijostyn,  senses are not always deceiving, especially for some experienced ears. Then is the time for correction if any.
My short posts refer to wether a spc can influence sound or not only by measuring it and not the environment. Still we learn but as @maghister said do it with fun and creativity.

G

A big thanks to @stevewharton for that wonderful post.
Speaks volumes as to those who inhabit these threads.

All the best,
Nonoise

Now that weed is legal in NY State, it ain’t as much fun, as the late great John Hartford once said.

BUT, dollars on weed is way better spent - and much much cheaper - than $s on cable and speaker interconnects. And as an added bonus: it makes sex and Hagen Das taste so much better too.

Why you guys had to mentioned his chin?

To even posit such an argument is ridiculous. Of course speaker cables make a (huge) difference. Sorry, but even a low level of critical listening experience reveals this to be the case very quickly. How large the gap is when comparing various cables coupled with speakers does vary based on the “sensitivity” of the speakers, but anyone that claims they make no difference plainly have no credibility in this hobby because their listening skills are either grossly deficient or they simply don’t take the time. The same speakers can sound sublime with one set of speaker cables (this matters arguably just as much with component  interconnects) and unlistenable with another set of speaker cables. Btw, price of the cables isn’t linear with the resulting sound quality either.

petg60, that is exactly how people get sucker punched. The last thing you want to do is trust your ears. They will lead you astray all over the place.

If i had listen to your advice i will never had what i had now...

No electronic equalizer can help with a room complete control, only fine tune the speakers response to the room for a very limited narrow spot in millimeter....

It is way better using the ears to fine tune all the room FOR this specific speakers with your ears...A mechanical equalizer COST NOTHING at all...

If you measure my room you must measure also my ears to understand WHY the sound appear good to me.... I am not a microphone by the way....

My S.Q. is so good to me that any system at any cost does not give me the urge to upgrade.... Not so much the wrong way you claim it is is’n it?....

😊

i prefer advising people about a no cost product and a fun learning experiment than your way of selling a costly and not up to the task product....I prefer to sell creativity and trust in ourself than mistrust of the most important learning tool : our ears....

Throwing up room treatment without knowing what your room is actually doing is another extraordinary thing to do. Yes, you will change the sound in many instances making it worse

This last sentence from you is misleading...It takes time but anybody can correct and fine tune his room one step at a time.... The only cost is time... The time to learn... The time to have fun.... The time to reach the optimal result....

The important thing is the rewarding result at no cost and at the end no negative trade-off like with an electronic equalization that work for a mic and a very narrow set of test frequencies response... The ears/brain dont work with frequency but with a relatively large band set of frequencies called a human voice timbre....The ears/brain work with the first wavefront which is different for each ear, coming from different reflective surface at different time, the ears/brain does not work naturally with a tested frequency....

petg60, that is exactly how people get sucker punched. The last thing you want to do is trust your ears. They will lead you astray all over the place.
If you want a really exceptional system by all means listen but understand you can be easily fooled especially if you have not trained your ears to know what flat and time aligned sounds like. Most people here are trying to function without a known reference in a situation were the frequency response of their system in their room can be +- 20 dB. In order to tell whether or not anything is making a difference you have to AB it multiple times preferably blind. In many instances what you think sounds better at first listening really does not and may even be worse.

Many people are listening to what I call exaggerated sound, boosted highs or mid bass (to make up for lack of real low end.) usually not caused by equipment but by the room. They mistake this for detail when in reality it is hiding detail. Measure or have your room measured. The graph will make you sick.

Throwing up room treatment without knowing what your room is actually doing is another extraordinary thing to do. Yes, you will change the sound in many instances making it worse. This is how I know "bass traps" do not work. I have measured them several times in different systems. All they do is absorb or redirect high frequencies, nothing else.

Thomas Edison, who was a showman, would do blind listening tests with his audience using a live professional singer and his new phonograph on stage.  Over a hundred years later and nothing really has changed. 

No the irony is that same subject lives already two centuries.
If people want specs let it be, otherwise trust your ears.

G

the irony just gets better and better..........

You all need better cables. Not just better quality in the outside,  but with ultra-premium shielding on the inside. The more expensive it is, the richer your music will sound.

Sighted, or double blind? Have you thought that visual clues might influence the outcome?

No audible difference if not connected.

G

I have 9 foot pairs of Cerious Technologies Graphene Extreme and Douglas Connection Alpha 12AWG OCC Speaker Cables.  Anyone who cannot hear the obvious difference in these two cables needs to get their hearing checked.  The Cerious are MUCH brighter than the Douglas cables.  You can hear the difference in the highs immediately. 

silver plated copper great in theory almost universally yeeech  in practice.

willie, yes silver has slightly lower resistance than copper. In the context of audio cables and wire it means absolutely nothing. You are talking about skin effect. Higher frequency alternating current electricity migrates to the surface of the conductor creating a "skin." the higher the frequency the thinner the skin which increases the resistance of the wire at these frequencies. Fortunately, bass frequencies, which require the most current, travel through the entire conductor. The most important factor with speaker wires is keeping them as short as possible followed by gauge and induction. Kimber Kable makes the lowest induction cable and 12TC ends up being 8 gauge. IMHO it is the best speaker wire made. Mono amps placed right near the speaker is always the best way to go. If you have to keep your amp far away from the speakers it is best to use speakers with a high impedance preferably 16 ohms and higher gauge wire with at least twisted pair construction. Zip cord is theoretically the worst. But, if I blind tested everyone on this thread it is highly unlikely that anyone could hear the difference between Kimber Kable and Zip cord.

Because I thought the comment about speaker wire # 15437 was very funny. 

I've heard that silver conducts significantly better than copper or gold. I've also heard that electricity travels on the surface of the conductor, not primarily the core. So, I was just wondering if silver-plated copper wire is really a good idea. Does it result in some part of the signal diverted to the core with higher resistance than the part of the signal traveling along the silver super-highway? Wouldn't that alter the timing and phase of the signal and possibly result in a sonic difference? Perhaps it's too small to notice or measure, but I thought the topic might be good for another 100 or so comments. ;-)

We would say, yes, they make a difference. 

     Was using standard 16ga as speaker wire in long runs. 
   Years back, switched to locking plugs with 8ga wire, in short runs of about 1foot to 1.75 foot as my runs to the amps. They sit 8 inches from the speaker, . There is a definite bass increase, as well as soundstage. 

   Silver plate or core rca and speaker wire, did increase the top end frequencies.  

@audition__audio Why did you thank Pesky for the "China comment"?

Yeah. And did you read the comments? ;)

OMG!

Millercarbon:  I beheld.   Woof!  Like wow!

It's always 4:00 a.m. somewhere.

Or is that just cocktail time?

tonywinga-

While not always practical or easy to accomplish, the most efficient use of funds would be to insure every link in the stereo chain is equivalent. 

How right you are. 

Behold! https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367

What interests me is those that are responding to this forum at 4:00AM. I guess they have no life to speak of or they would be spending their early hours in dreamland like the rest of us regular  bellied Sneeches.

I'll have some fun here and throw in my experience and opinion.  20 years ago I was living and working in Germany.  I left my stereo system behind in South Carolina.  It wasn't long before I was roaming the streets of Stuttgart looking for an audio fix.  I found a pair of demo B&W P6 floor standing speakers cheap in a shop there and put them in my flat paired with a modest receiver.  They sounded ok and that is what I had for a few years for music.  Got back to the US of A and my stereo.  It was AWESOME to hear my stereo system again.  The B&Ws took on HT duty.  One rainy day I wondered how the B&Ws, a modest speaker to be sure, would sound hooked up to my stereo.  They were ok sounding for the most part.  So I tried it.  I was surprised at the result.  The speakers sounded still just ok but now I realized they lacked detail and resolution.  No layered soundstage- it was just a superficial sound as the best way to describe it.  I learned something that day how much each component in my stereo system is a link in a chain.  The overall system performance will be only as good as the weakest link.  Each cable, source, preamp, amp, power cord, room, and shelf is a link in that chain.  Some would include the power receptacle and in-wall wiring as well.  While not always practical or easy to accomplish, the most efficient use of funds would be to insure every link in the stereo chain is equivalent.  In reality, we tend to see saw our way up the chain- so to speak.  It was obvious that expensive cables would be wasted on these modest speakers or even a hi end preamp/amp and source for that matter.  How can there be an audible difference if the speakers are not able to articulate it?  
I firmly believe that you get what you pay for in Audio.  Sure, one must always be on guard for the snake oil but we Audio hobbyists have been a tight knit community for decades and do a pretty fantastic job at sorting out the gold nuggets from the clunkers.

@stevewharton

what’s important here extends beyond the subject matter itself and more about the abundance of irresponsible misinformation....

We’ve got various paper tigers and YouTube alleged industry experts, that are somewhere between an audiophile and journalist, spewing their spin and shaping opinions and purchases of the uninformed with their misinformation

Thank you, thank you, thank you for seeing the point of my OP. However I feel about Gene or others on the internet spreading misinformation (intentionally or whatever), I feel some kinship with the novice hobbyist enthusiastic about the same hobby I’m into -- but has stumbled into a weird site like Gene’s. (And I’ve seen really good posts and videos there, so it really IS hard to sort wheat from chaff.) It doesn’t matter to me that they are over at Gene’s site -- if they’re being misinformed, it would be cool if somehow someone threw them a fact or two so they could see there is more to it. In the end, this is not about cable-haters vs. cable-converts; this is about adding signal to the noise and supporting the hobby (and other people) in an educative way.

While a tired subject and well past ODing on analysis paralysis, what's important here extends beyond the subject matter itself and more about the abundance of irresponsible misinformation

We've got various paper tigers and YouTube alleged industry experts, that are somewhere between an audiophile and journalist, spewing their spin and shaping opinions and purchases of the uninformed with their misinformation

It's difficult to tell how much is an intentional attempt to mislead the general public and how much is something they just don't know

In all cases, we just don't know, what we don't - myself included

When you don't know, I'm quick to offer up the get out of jail free card but when you're intentionally being misleading it's import for those of us that do know the difference to call BS

In Gene's case, my guess is he knows the difference and is thus intentionally misleading the uninformed with irresponsible misinformation

And this where I want to call BS on Gene's, self proclaimed 'once and for all debunking the myth with armed to the teeth measurements'

What a crock of poo

I will provide my .02 cents in a follow up post, but I'm certain it will only be review for all of you that know the difference and thus will not waste anymore of your valuable time further extending this post

The ARC observation prompted me to share a True story:

I once knew a guy locally who was a big cable hater. He was a custom installer, home theater stuff, and mostly Sonos. He would always say cables are useless, every single time he got the chance, very loudly. He still does the same, in all Facebook groups he is part of, and in local gatherings, to get business ala Audioholics style.

One day I bought something from him, and went to his house to pick it up (he did not have a retail store). I noticed some very thick, awesome looking speaker cables he had his floor standing speakers connected with. So I asked him something like “what’s up with these?”. He said... Oh... a customer gave them to him for free, and he was only using them because they looked good. Then he went on to “explain” why speaker cables don’t matter, blah, blah, blah. 😂😂🙄🙄

I’d just thought I’d share.

audition:
No assumption made--except ARC clearly considers cabling important. No lamp cord there.

Thank you pesky for the China comment. 

gpgr dont assume that ARC only uses the cables they do because they sound the best. Industry relationships, formed over decades, have a significant impact.

The reference to ARC advising not to spend $ on cables is probably taken out of context. I'm sure they would recommend upgrading a component vs upgrading speaker cable (assuming one starts with cable from a reputable manufacturer). ARC uses Shunyata pcs and Transparent Reference XL speaker cables in their listening room. There are plenty of videos on line where one can see that and even an introduction at a show where Dave Gordon refers to how ARC designed its Ref 160Ms using Alexia2 speakers and Transparent XL cabling.
I  simply can't imagine that Warren Gehl does not hear a difference in speaker cables. I have had 4 different brands in the last fifteen years and found a significant difference between each of them. They are IMHO tied with the IC from source to pre as the most important cable in the system.