Proof of improvements in audio system sound quality....

This is the funniest thread that I've ever read here.  I would love to know if the OP was being intentionally deadpan funny or serious and clueless.

   To address the question that I think he is asking....which is how to get the best sound for the money....one serious consideration should be room correction software.  This can either be a standalone to an existing digital system or he could buy it included with various amp/dac/streamer combinations.  It really does help snap things into focus.  

I like chocolate.

Do you like chocolate?

I like chocolate best.

thank you barts

hows your dad doing...

homer simpson??

@digitalviper 

I was only replying in kind to your very funny original post.  No rudeness intended.

I repeat:  Post some pics of your system and your will get much farther "down the road" (pun intended) with some valuable responses.

Regards,

barts

@digitalviper 

Thank you for the details. I did my homework. I remember reading quite a bunch of mahgister's posts when he was more active on the forums. He is certainly very passionate about this hobby and has invested a lot of his time and energy in to building his audio system the way he likes it.

I think we are all learning from each other. So we can call be disciples and achieve greater truth and objectivity in this hobby. Every new opportunity to learn something new is worth it!! 

@digitalviper

i need someone to help explain how to make a less expensive system sound better, truthfully. with no lies at all.

1 Find the best sounding room to put your system in. Not too lively and certainly not too dull.

2 Set up your speakers (with the treble units near ear height) wherever they give their best sound. It will take some time, patience and experiment. Keep a record of the different positions you have tried for future reference.

Your lovely wife might be able to help you out there but some of us have to labour alone. My wife always finds something more interesting for her to do. It must be over 15 years since she stepped foot in Hi-Fi store.

3 Find some method of decoupling your speakers. There are numerous professional products out there that will help or you could experiment with springs / sorbothane.

4 Remember that @mahgister took his system setup to extremes, and it seemed to work for him, but would you really want to go that far?

5 Plan for the most effective future upgrades but keep in mind that your system is probably already in the top 1% of systems worldwide.

We audiophiles tend to be rather an extreme bunch.

My wife's hearing is fading. She wears hearing aids now. So I am good to go. Can even play music loud at midnight in a living room adjoining the master bedroom, and she doesn't bat an eye.

Lucky Man

@mastering92 

if you go the system page of these 2 audiophiles...do your HOMEWORK. The posts. They must be friends, maybe family, something is happening. One of them is a tweaker who is POOR the other guy also makes tweaks but he is RICH. You see how millercarbon is all about tweaks, the other guy is in not spending any money to make it happen. He is creating his own with household items and not buying new audio products. so he is following in millercarbons footsteps...honestly the nicest system i ever saw on this website was from this person, millercarbon.

looks like a million dollars was spent for it!!!

i am not about praying and god. my dad told me "god does not exist" disciple, like someone who you learn stuff from. i think i am your disciple since you included so much info. Also you are being very nice while everybody else is being mean to me. i told my wife and she said "let it be" she is happy now but lots of shouting and she called me a "dumb guy" so i am feeling bad about that.

speaking of concrete my brother is in construction. he lays that stuff and fixes the pot holes in the road and other stuff. i have no conclusions about this material aside from it being a FACT that concrete is a good material for people who build houses. its also in the basement on the floor most of the time. so there you go.

@barts 

how is your dad? homer simpson right...i know that show lisa is my #1 character.- the simpsons was based on real life!! of course im just joking but do NOT be rude to me. i can sue you!!

@mahgister 

if you could return and talk to us i would be very happy. i am sorry for making you angry. only you have the answers since you are the right person for this subject - tweaks and more. i will be nice. i promise. you have my word.

@mastering92 check thy shopping cart. You’ll notice I’ve placed M-80s and Wolverine M-100s (also known as Silver Salutes.) Prepare yourself for the inevitable. Good luck, and Godspeed ….

All expenses paid btw :-)

maghister is the disciple of millercarbon..

Thanks for the info. I know to ignore him now.

maghister is the disciple of millercarbon...

LOL or was it the other way around?!

Sorry I didn't catch that earlier. Well then, Good God. How did we get here?! is there an audio bible that mentions more "disciples" or the particular feats of either @mahgister and @millercarbon ? 

How did you reach such a conclusion, @digitalviper ?

That's a funny word as well. Have you changed your opinion about this recently, or has it remained a concrete fact? Please share details. I will listen to you...

@waytoomuchstuff     Thank you.  I did not pick up on your humour.  There's so much pseudo-science on here that I took your post as reasoned analysis.  Sorry.

@clearthinker

"the channel separation will not be the width of your head, rather it will approximate to infinity since each ear hears only one channel"

Attempts a humor are a hit and miss proposition. It’s been said that laughter is a form of protest to something absurd or ridiculous. If it’s not perceived as funny, then it’s just viewed as ... absurd and ridiculous. Which seems to be the case here. Just my attempt to poke a little fun at ourselves for our occassional overemphasis on numbers.

I did enjoy your comments and learned something this morning. Thanks for sharing.

Eternal trolling…

@waytoomuchstuff 

it is a VERY BAD idea. i can not do a repair on any audio products. I AM NOT QUALIFIED.

@mastering92 

You wrote A LOT. I am greatful to you.... are you a professor of this subject?? i am learning a lot like being back in college years ago....thats what i wished to UNDERSTAND!!! like why is something followed by so many zeros for price, but something else is cheaper???! thank you so much.

also i will look at your profile. have a very nice day.

my wife looked at this whole page....she is happy that so many people are helping me out. 

i believe that headphones are right path for me with audio. i want to hear everything and even if it sounds bad, i am not going to be angry. how can i do this for $100 ? 

i can build a small system for this cost. since now my livlihood and life story are supported by my wife. i love her to be moon and back. don't you guys think i am the bad guy.

- viper

The original post is for kicks and giggles @mastering92. Save them precious words.

@cptrips

I would say best bang for buck is get a nice set of headphones and a matching headphone amp. Or save until you can afford a nice set of speakers. Go listen to as many speakers as you can and pick your favorite. Take your wife with you and treat her to dinner afterwards. It always comes down to speakers. Quality speakers with mediocre equipment will always sound better than mediocre speakers with quality equipment.

Great advice. A headphone system may be just right for him.

@digitalviper

Check out my profile. I would recommend a power conditioner to get started. Buy good quality power cables if necessary. The one I’m using already has a hard-wired power cord... no need to replace it (it’s actually over-specified) it will never be damaged due to overheating or a loss of current transfer. The designer of this power conditioner spent a lot of time, resources, and invested in plenty of research to build a superior product.

I’m listening to the Meters Novu-1 headphones with a Panasonic CD player paired to an audio techica headphone amp. Based on the amount of electricity used, this system is tough to beat! The headphone out of the portable CD players I own all sound different, as do their outputs. So.. a lot of variety in terms of finlding the most suitable sound signature for you.

I think a slightly warm, fairly neutral-sounding rig would be fine for you. Once you get in to audio forensics, tracks that usually sound alright might sound start to sound really ugly. So keep that in mind...

@waytoomuchstuff 

Possibly you do not understand the the spatial effects of listening on headphones.  When you listen on speakers both of your ears hear both channels.  Your right ear hears a lot of the right channel and a bit of the left, and vice versa.  So, assuming the musical event was recorded with the classic two microphone positionings, you will hear something that approximates to that event.  

If you listen on headphones where the right channel goes into the right ear and the left channel into the left and there is no mixing in your pre-amp or 'dummy head' processing, you will still hear stereo but the channel separation will not be the width of your head, rather it will approximate to infinity since each ear hears only one channel.  Of course, this gives an entirely different spatial presentation.  One that I have enjoyed but is not classical stereo.

@digitalviper 

You say your mind is confused.

Read your post again.  It sure is.

If it came in a bottle, everyone would have great sound. 
It doesn't. 
No one person can tell you.
No one device, or room treatment, or (your idea here) will be the answer to your dilemma. 
There's no lamp to rub or rug to unroll as there are no such things as genies. 
Sadly, muses only inspire people to write, compose and paint. Listening is not in their purview.
If you find yourself doubting your system and unable to just listen, it's not your system. 

All the best,
Nonoise 

Good sound is in the ear of the listener. Everybody has an opinion. Each recipe is what makes each audiophile special. So many recipes out there. Take your pick!  Which are special to you?

I’m not sure if anyone else picked up on this. If you own the cheapest set of earbuds or $5k electrostatics, the stereo separation spec is the same. It's the width of your head.

We do a lot of stereo system configuration consulting for customs that are using Dirac Live room correction. We work on systems that vary from modest to extremely expensive.
We have learned after many consulting sessions that about 30% of all systems have some type of configuration issue. (Serious enough to prevent or interfere with a Dirac Live project) This video, while centric to the miniDSP SHD and Flex, offers generic concepts that will help you verify your system and ensure optimal performance. As an added bonus your wife should be delighted to hold your UMIK during the process:

Using Key Measurements to Verify Basic System Setup

Deer Creek Audio is an authorized miniDSP dealer.

 I would say best bang for buck is get a nice set of headphones and a matching headphone amp. Or save until you can afford a nice set of speakers. Go listen to as many speakers as you can and pick your favorite. Take your wife with you and treat her to dinner afterwards. It always comes down to speakers. Quality speakers with mediocre equipment will always sound better than mediocre speakers with quality equipment.

My only advice is to listen more. 

@tonywinga 

Yes I watched about 10 minutes, will definitely finish it though.

I'll bet it set "Audiophiledom" back about 20 years!  LOL.

Regards,

barts 

So let me get this straight. Your wife had to cook on Valentine’s Day??

Good luck on getting a new system. You’ll be lucky to buy a new cable. 

Did no one watch the Mr. Ed episode titled, HiFi Horse? (S5, E1). It’s hilarious- and yet so true.

Wilbur buys a hifi system on a 36 month payment plan.  He tries to dazzle his wife with the terrific sound.  His wife becomes so upset over it she packs a bag and leaves.  Mr Ed, his horse tries to operate the stereo and says, “You have to be an electrical engineer to operate this thing.”  

It’s great!

@digitalviper 

Is that your Viper?  If so, just wait until you can't drive it properly (Vipers are notoriously difficult) then sell it and buy a real HiFi system.  Of course by then you probably won't be able to hear.  What a conundrum! 

Okay if you really want a serious answer then post pics of your system at a minimum.

Regards,

barts

The only part of this I believe is, well none of it.  Especially the part about his wife being bored at the stereo store!😉😉

Remove all the parts from prospective audio gear.  Check them for tolerances, then reinstall them using silver solder.  That's the only way you'll know for sure.

Okay @digitalviper

Since you asked so politely, I’m going to try my best to answer your question. I can’t promise that what I’m about to type will even be a sufficient answer. Please don’t be angry if my answer is unsatisfactory. To calm your nerves, I’m going to try and provide a bit of extra information that may be useful to you. Once again, in life there are no guarantees! We can only do our best and expect others to notice.

i need someone to help explain how to make a less expensive system sound better, truthfully. with no lies at all.

on the surface i can smell some liars already. I am asking for honesty as the best policy, and nothing else.

do i make myself CLEAR??

- viper

The cost of audio gear is based on a number of things. The cost of parts, paying electrical engineers / designers, executives, shareholders, etc. Once a reputable brand goes "corporate" meaning it is no longer owned by its founder(s), rather a large conglomerate, quality and overall value goes down like hell. Cost alone is less important than the quality and reliability of the internal parts that are used to build audio gear you buy. Look around for audio gear that was not built to a cost."

For example, look inside an amplifier - what brand of capacitors are they using? A handful or 2 to 4 large filter capactiors with rock-solid build quality may last a bit longer than a power stage with a school of less costly capacitors on mainboard power stage. Lousy capacitors can be cut in half with a pair of scissors; while the best among them are totally solid, resulting only in a dent. I DO NOT suggest trying this.

Be careful around all audio equipment you get to see; and have a reliable person supervising you at all times.

While it is true that electrolyte in capacitors degrade over time/extended use, cleaning the tops of them to ensure no dust build up and short listening sessions with low impedance speakers or a headphone out can help. Sometimes, replacing capacitors is absolutely necessary. This is most often when relays fail, new fuses of the same type/rating don’t work, and/or if the amplifier is consantly going in to protection mode and refusing to power on, or stay powered on.

Everything matters! The lengths and quality of soldering of cable inside an amplifier, CD player, etc. the shortness of the signal path, things like a quasi Class A output stage, circuit design, cables between components etc. including but not limited to cable length and conductor (silver is superior to copper; unless you use PCOCC copper then you might not hear much of a difference) since that is very pure copper with a continuous cast process (was invented in Japan). The specifications that really matter start with frequency response, but are more complex than baseline measurements (sites like ASR) and those will tell you a lot more about sound quality than SINAD, which is an outdated metric. Tons of negative feedback in a circuit, OP amps, and other design shortcuts can result in extremely low levels of THD - this is largely unimportant for sound quality, since you won’t be able to hear those levels vs something like 0.0.2 % etc. anyway.

The crossovers in speakers are all of different grades. In a perfect world, we would have crossover frequencies all set at optimal levels with the highest quality parts. Speakers in particular are marked up in price heavily - meaning the cost to produce a pair of speakers: what the company charges the distributor is not nearly as costly as you might think! Speakers and cables are marked up quite a bit...as are imported audio gear from rare brands overseas (brands like Goldmund, PMC, ATC, and top Japanese brands).

Different midrange cone materials, tweeter implementations, and how robust a woofer is to its own vibration is absolutely important! Properly deposited beryllium or graphene drivers can produce great results! Woofers that appear to be moving back and forth and rattling are inferior and will result in a complete disaster for figuring out the texural resolve and bass styles used in your favourite music. Tight bass should actually sound like dense, compressed air. Rather cold. Tonal qualities for speakers are all over the place...Speakers you find at department stores with unrealistic power handling specs are not telling you the full story. They will clip and sound terrible.

Some vintage speakers (especially those from Japan) are known to have a very sweet midrange (for female vocals) and often take the edge away from otherwise sharp passages at higher frequencies and upper-midrange frequencies that should have been tuned down properly by someone in the post-production process.

Always listen first and take written / mental notes when you experience new audio gear. Find what meets your needs, rather than what is popular. Avoid pushy dealers who suggest "will you be making a purchase today? and give you a cold stare if not. Dealers who are unsuccessful typically charge slightly above what others are charging for the same product! Always do recursive searches with an image search software to find the same product offered for less, or at least a reasonable cost.

Back to listening first - Some people have better hearing than others. It’s hereditary.Visit an audiologist to get your hearing tested to ensure that your hearing is actually at a good level, so as to be fully capable of enjoying a good audio system. There is good news - even if you lost some hearing in high frequencies, most of what makes music an emotional and captivating experience is in the midrange...vocals instrumentals etc.

To figure out if you possess special talents, you should visit the Eugenics Record Office in Cold Spring Harbor, New York. If they’re too busy, invest in some books written by Charles Davenport. You can buy them on amazon.com. Go back and check your family history. Who knows...you may have a relative who was a musician, hence why you are an audiophile?!!

The science of Eugenics would serve you well; even Physiognomy is great to discern (truthfully, with no lies at all) if you and your Wife are meant to be together. It can also help with spotting lying salespeople; simply by looking for key facial features. For example, I once made a citiziens arrest (some hoodlum grabbed an elderly woman’s purse) ran after the guy and held him on the ground until the cops arrived.

Back to Physiognomy, he had exactly the facial features that were associated with the criminals, lying etc.

I would be curious to know how all this works out for you. Feel free to send me a message. You’re a good guy I think...You just need a large measure of external guidance and support. - from a Charles Darwin quote..one of my faves.

Have a great day! and be well.

@waytoomuchstuff, let’s not get crazy. One hand on the ladder is good enough. 

@p05129 

"When I was shopping to spend $60k-$100k on audio equipment, my wife was involved, either by joining me at dealers or going to audio shows around the country. Just like my wife and I always went together looking at new homes, expensive sports cars, and boats."

I wanna be you when I grow up.

@rocray 

"I had my wife clean the gutters on Valentine’s Day.  Don’t judge. I held the ladder."

Nice.  But, the big question is: Did you sit your beer down and use both hands to hold the ladder?

fiction with an agenda?

@digitalviper - Never ask a salesperson for advice on stuff they don't sell.

"Get Better Sound" by Jim Smith.

First off Mahgister‘s rock bags zip tied to the outdoor power line is genius.

@digitalviper

My first foray into a high end audio store introduced me to GoldenEar speakers and Parasound electronics.  It sounded great and introduced me to 3D soundstaging.  The second audio store the salesman pushed for a budget, so when I reluctantly gave him some number he tried selling me a meh sounding system.  Although I complained to management, I lost trust in audio dealers.  So until very lately (I finally found a dealer I can trust), I did my own research online, audio magazines, audio stores, and audio conventions.      

Audiophile tweaks are a personal choice - some avoid them while some embrace them.  Some work, some not so much.  The salesman was likely trying to steer you into a sale for his benefit which is not an unusual motivation.  It's not wise to automatically trust a salesman.

This is a high-end audio forum.  It's a head scratcher that you go on this forum saying that

i get premium sound quality with my earbuds and smartphone

which is not high-end at all.  If you are satisfied with the sound quality then your done and can save on spending for a system.  But as most of us here know, there is much better sonics to be had for a price.  Some may chase a "fool you it's real sound', while others may favor tube warmth midrange magic.  Your settling for earbuds/smartphone leads me to believe you haven't heard many great sounding audio chains.

Being in love has nothing to do with shared interest, especially when it comes to hobbies.  From many forum comments, seems like most spouses "tolerate" our hobby rather than support/participate in it.  

@digitalviper, your love is fake ...........................................

The opening of this post cracked me up, I’m picturing my wife in audio stores not looking at anything, just patiently waiting to leave. As for a cheap system sounding good, I think that’s very possible, my first system was cheap and I was in love with it - Marantz PM6003 and Monitor Audio Bronze BX2 bookshelf speakers. I used a Mac mini and just went headphone Jack out to RCA using iTunes and downloaded music. While some of the music was in WAV I didn’t have the software to play it native resolution so I’m sure it all came out mp3.

Why was this system so good, because it was my first system coming from computer speakers and I had no experience with anything higher end. If you start your journey listening to expensive equipment and get your ear to enjoy that sound, then buy something way less capable you’ll never be happy. If you start at the bottom though it will sound so much better than everything else and you’ll love it for that. Get off the forums and just enjoy that system, set it up as well as you can with some space around the speakers and just buy music. The day you’re genuinely ready to spend more, then go and listen to equipment AT THAT price range, this has been my experience and it’s been a great hobby to me. 
I will say, the more expensive the equipment the more you expect from it, and this can lead to frustration if it’s not PERFECT. It takes more work and more money and can eventually lead to more reward, but not always. So, to close, enjoy your system, give your speakers some room, and stop listening to anything you can’t currently afford. When you can afford it, then begin searching, I appreciate this takes willpower…

.....been doing the improbable for so long with so little.....

Doing the impossible with Nothing?

Rabbits still need a hat....or being able to reach around back Just So.....*L*

...for Vals’ Day I lucked into an early reservation at spouses’ fav eatery, had a leisurely delish meal and had a good time for our 45th....which astounds some but not us....which Is the Point. ;)

@digitalviper ....’k, to cut to your issue, what are your intents? What are you looking to improve upon?

Room treatments? Curtains, rugs or no, ’art’ that acts like diffusers, placement with the given space...call it ’redecoration’ and enlist Her (not doing so is at your detriment, obviously...) in the event....

Speakers on stands, or not....most SO’s have their issues over the boxes that ’have to be Just So... although mine likes the small Maggies’, despite their ’feeding habits’...*shrug* Go figure...

Room eq can do wonders or blunders, a room correcting unit could be an answer without K$ in the pursuit....

There’s a lot of approaches to ’improvements’, but a better statement of What Bugs You would help in an audioRx...

@frogman ...*L* yeah, a little can go a long way but depends upon what state one is in, who you know, and the aroma left behind to the curiosity of ones’ kids....age dependent, of course...

...it’s all ’between the ears’, after all...😏👍

Happy Weekend, J

@dekay absolutely the funniest post! LMFAO so much my ribs ache!

If you're serious, there's plenty of advice in past threads here, or do some internet searches. 

** i need someone to help explain how to make a less expensive system sound better, truthfully. with no lies at all. **

It is now legal in about half the country (USA).

iF you are remotely handy…you might even DIY your own brick…..