I know the Odyssey (IIRC) Khartago is used as one of the amps used by Alon Wolf of the cutting edge speaker designer of Magico. Seems like one of the rare sonic bargains available. Their upper line Kismet might also be a high price/performance option.
need amp recommendations for more separation of instruments
I've noticed that if I play music that only has a few instruments playing at the same time it generally sounds great, but, if it's got a lot of instruments playing different parts at the same time it all mushes together and you can't hear the individual instruments clearly. My current rig is a NAD M10 and Focal Aria 948s. At a store, I heard 948s paired with a front end costing about $100,000 and that system did not have this problem, at least it not to my ears. That tells me that with really good electronics this problem can be greatly reduced and that the problem is more with my electronics than it is with my speakers. But $100k is out of my budget. My questions are:
1. Are there some classes or types of amplification that are notably better at getting separation between instruments in complex music?
2. Are there some brands that are notably better at getting separation between instruments in complex music?
3. How much would I need to spend to get something that solves this specific problem notably better than my NAD M10?
4. How much would I need to spend to get something that's a really good solution, where I probably wouldn't notice the problem unless I went out of my way to listen for it? (I know, this differs between people, but I'm still interested in your opinion).
Thanks,
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Yeah but… I would take the M60s in a heart beat, but I but the old amp with the correct speaker location is better than the M60s in a rotten position and rotten room. And we are trying to figure out if the speakers are positioned right before questioning the amp. But I am kind of envious of your amp(s). |
OP, Your mention of the flute getting lost in the sound of the strings. I attend a symphony every couple weeks.I have ideal seats 7th row center. And the flutes… and all instruments go from being solo to “massed” together. That is how it sounds in real life. But perhaps, you are saying this happens more that you think it should.
if you think this walking on top of each other. Then, it is probably most likely you need higher quality speakers. I think. Did you post any photos of your system and venue? |
I spent some more time on this. Nice speakers, by the way!. Some years ago I had a similar pair of JM Labs/Focal tower speakers with almost identical specs to yours. I drove them with a Conrad Johnson MV-55 amp. It was an awesome pairing - very full, musical, detailed and overall great sound. Their current version is the Classic 62. Maybe your local CJ dealer can let you try one out with these, because it may be just what your looking for. All the best! |
I might suggest you ask your dealer if he sells Audio Research amps. They have been marketing under the slogan, "High Definition" since day one, and for good reason. After listening to it for a while you may not like it, but I suggest you give it a try, anyway. There has to be a reason that they have been successful for almost 50 years, and yes, not every item they make is the same, but many are quite good at what you are looking for. Good luck! Cheers! |
Take the "flute getting lost" recording to the dealer where you heard your speakers and have them play it on their $100k system. Listen carefully. If it is only marginally better then it is the recording. In that case have the dealer play something similar that he knows has awesome separation. Borrow or purchase or copy that EXACT recording. Test on your system. If the dealer system does not sound the same (ie. much better) with your recording or your system doesn't sound better with the "awesome" dealer recording then follow all the instructions and advice above. Regards, barts |
I'll be honest, the NAD is not made very well. I'd sell it and start looking around Indianapolis for a solution. What? Yep! Odyssey. Check out Klaus' amplifier offerings ... for what you paid for the N10 you could get his top of line Kismet (available in mono or stereo) You will not only thank me but be awash in the aura of audio resplendency ... well, at least check him out: |
I use feet from Herbie’s Audio on the bottom of either speakers or stands. They provide high quality isolation from the floor (I have a horribly resonating suspended floor) but are different than isoacoustics or other products because there are gliding surfaces on the bottom. I can easily glide my big tower speakers around to optimize room placement. Really incentivizes little moves, and this has made a big difference in several aspects of sound. The comment above about first reflection points proved very important in my system as well. |
Four years ago, after acquiring Atma Sphere M-60 amplifiers for my Quad 2912 speakers I have posted the following comment on audioreview site. "After various solid state and tubes amplifiers (including all Quads, several Jadis and McIntosh etc) M60 amplification is a huge improvement in my system ! My overall impression is: everything sounds MUCH more realistic, there are MUCH more details, there’s no coloration of any kind, voices are so natural, every single sound can be perceived. You can actually mentally concentrate your attention on each instrument or just listen the whole scene in an organic way. In a sense, you can ”see” music both in microscopic details and as a whole picture at the same time. So, the first impression on listening OTL amplifiers is surprising. The sound is different compared to "classic" tube amplifiers, but it is also different compared to solid-state amplifiers. You may need a few minutes to adapt your ears to this new level of perception. M-60 MK 3 reunite the richness of details carracterristic for solid state amplification, and musicality characteristic for tube sound." I still stand behind those words as M-60 provides exceptionnal instrument separation. Particularly on electrostatic speakers. Recently Atma Sphere has came up with Class D amplfier that sounds surprisingly simmilar to M-60. So if anyone is looking for better instrument separation, a greater transparancy, more details... I highly recommend to test these exceptionnal Made in USA products. I’m french, we have many fine amplifiers here, but I still have to find any amplifier in any budget that sounds better. Also, do not neglect the importance of better source. Room treatement may help a lot, but essentialy better electronics are critical for better sound, in my humble opinion.
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Review and test of FDA TECHNICS SU-C700 EG-S amplifier One of the best, if not the best amp I listened to since 30 years, what ever the price ! |
@soix exactly right on all counts. @ahuvia old mate from work had us over. I asked how he liked the speakers, and he mentioned they we better in the shop. Liking the sound, he said, ”How does the work?”. Of course he just left em there, but it really opened things up.
If we knew your room size it might help… |
I have no way to know how your setup sounds compared to mine, but we have a few things in common. My setup is a Pathos Classic One Mkiii (similar price point to your NAD) and I have Focal 836v speakers. I also had the opportunity to audition my speakers on the Krell mono block gear that intended for the Focal Grande Utopia speakers. You could say that I “heard things” that I’ve never heard since. I actually selected the 836v over the 816v primary based on the sound of a harp in a Josh Groban song. I recently upgraded my source to a Denafrips Ares II and them moved to a Morrow Audio MA4 balanced interconnect and the combination of the two really improved the instrument separation for me. My setup is far from optimized due to the physical limitations of a relatively small house, but I would consider a better source (depending on what you have) as a potential place to make a big improvement. |
@ahuvia My suggestion is to use a separate power amp while keeping NAD as a preamp. You can take the signal from pre-out on the back of the NAD and connect it to a separate power amp to see if you can get what you are looking for. In my system, there are a number of amps that put each instrument in its own acoustical space separate from others. Krell KST 100 is one and Audio research 100.2 is another. KST 100 is rated at 100w 2 8Ohms, 200W @ 4Ohms, and 400W @ 2Ohms. AR 100.2 has similar ratings except 360W @ 2ohms. Your speaker is fully capable of resolving this, but it needs a good amp that can handle its low impedance.My advise is to find an amp that can deliver enough current to drive your speaker at low impedance.
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The key is to place your amps as far apart as possible and if your speakers are capable, bi-amp them for further separation.
Of course I'm joking (although I wouldn't be surprised to find out there are people that belief such silliness) but it's just as effective as different amps providing better or even different instrument separation. It's simple electronics. |
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A good salesman should want to do everything to make the more expensive gear sound better in the store. Speaker placement and wall treatments would be a couple of ways to aid in that. |
In my experience the quality of "more separation of instruments" depends more on the source than amps. The source must generate a good signal to amps to perform.
I am not sure if the sound in below video can be as good as $100k system you heard. For your info, whole system in the video is $30k. The integrate amp (IC cable included) is $10k. Original video
Wavetouch sound
Alex / Wavetouch audio |
My Oppo, BAT, Wireworld, B&W Diamond rig excels at this kind of definition. I believe it’s called "dynamics". Usually we think of dynamics as music going from soft to loud (which it is). Dynamics also means the softest sounds VS the loudest sounds found in the music. Your system must have the capability in each chain-link to do what you are wanting. |
Lotta great information in this chat with regard to placement room treatment, etc. but I definitely agree with the gentleman that talked about doing separates and for true holographic sound. I just don’t think anything beats newer tube amplifiers. I’m not a fan of vintage gear in terms of practicality, but newer Conrad Johnson, Pre Amp like an ET5 you can get used for around four grand and a good VTLS200 (under $5k often) or a good newer classic 62 SE Conrad Johnson amp and can’t compare to SS gear at all much richer better soundstage with better separation and timbre etc…:Best To You ..:..enjoy! |
This is a common problem in a room that is too lively. They sound worse loud. |
placement will definitely help but may not get you 100% of the way there. You will need electronics and cables that will bring it all to that level. DAC and integrated or separates. I’d say start with the integrated or separates. I’d say you’re looking at a $5k and up worth of upgrades to get you there. Might want to look at Hegel H390 integrated amp and something like a Chord Qutest DAC. At a minimum. |
Besides trying different speaker positions, consider having your room acoustically treated by a professional. Chances are, if the Focal dealer was using $100K of electronics to demo the speakers, I'd suspect they had also put a lot of effort in the the room's acoustic design. That has a major impact on stereo imaging. As others have noted, early room reflections can smear the image of even the best speakers. The only problem for many audiophiles is they do not have a dedicated listening room, but have their setup in a living room or other spot in the house that has to share duties with other family activities. While that typically limits what can be acoustically done to the room, that doesn't mean there can't be improvements. That's where someone with experience in this area can be very useful. |
Re your flute question. Have you heard it live when it is playing in competition with a full string section? Unless it has been spot lit by a mic (many orchestras do use spot mics) I bet not. In a recording session the man at the mixer hitting the sliders will do much to accent the flute (or not). You may like the result or not. FWIW you may need a few great recordings which were made without spot lit violins (most are that's why the are often screechy and dominant and would easily hide a flute). Don't blame your audio stuff for problems which may only be related to the way the recording was made. |
Speaker placement and room acoustics is the first thing I would tackle. Equilateral triangle with speakers and listening position, then toe in to get the best compromise between image accuracy and soundstage width (it’s unfortunately always a compromise to some degree and requires time and effort to achieve a good balance). Get some GIK or similar panels and treat the wall behind the speakers as well as first reflection points (read up on that…basically a mid point between listening position and speakers on the side walls). Few videos…
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Thank you all. This is great advice. I'm looking forward to the adventure of tweaking the setup and I'm sure that will make things sound better. But I want to double-check if I explained the problem properly. When I think of imaging, I think of the way different instruments seem to be "placed" on a stage between the speakers. That's not exactly what I'm worried about. My concern is that when, say, I'm listening to a symphony and the main theme is being played by the strings, but there is a flute in the background doing something a little bit different, the flute gets lost. I can hear that it is there, but I can't hear it clearly, it gets washed out by the louder string section. It is mostly a matter of the detail in the music getting lost when a lot of things are happening at the same time. Is placement going to help with that? |
My,speakers are about 9 ft apart, ….15” from the,wall, my sitting position is 9 feet from the speakers,slightly toed in. experiment, took me weeks to find the “spot” once you find it, you will know. also, I went from K-mart rcas to audioquest and Groneberg power cords , and still use my BJ rcas in main system, they cancel out the radio tower tweeter gibberish, broadcast.
experiment, move them, sit for 15 min,move,again, keep,a,written note of position or distance from wall, from listening position, all the goodie. take your time, as my wife said I was a crazed metalhead moron, moving, listening, moving, swapping,cables, different,cd,players, every day,for,about,a,week and a half. You,will find your “spot” keep messing,w your system. I like moving stuff,around,as I,clean dust, etc from back of rack, also,when the stereo is,clean, t does sound better. |
Speaker placement is critical for great performance as brought up above. If you have not done a lot of this… then think of placement taking hours of work over weeks. Not just move a few inches… listen, move, listen… done.
You might look up speaker placement you will find more than you want. In short… you need space behind speakers, and away from walls, in equilateral triangle with listening position. Starting with them pointing behind your head. Move in and out left and right to open soundstage but not loose central image. Then optimize toe in. Less toe in opens the soundstage and separates images. Then get everything out of in between speakers and dampen the wall. This will unconfuse the images. If speakers too close to side wall, then dampening needed there… this goes on.
Anyway, I would recommend doing moves over very long sessions, over many sessionsm. Get to know the sound really well… then move… get to know the sound really well.
If all this fails. Then it will unlikely be tha amp as such… it will be the combination of source / preamp in your NAD. They all make a difference… but the amp would be the last place I would look. If you need improvements. I would consider trading in for separates. Too many functions in a single box make enormous compromises in sound quality. |
Is it an M10 or M10v2. The Original M10 was maybe not the best and most resolving amp NAD has produced. The V2 came out explicitly to address some of these issues. The V2 on the other hand should sound pretty good. With focal speakers, further spread is good. You can also consider over-toeing so that the speakers are crossing 1.5 to 3’ in front of your head.
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Ask the Focal dealer, they will likely know the surest method to optimimize your setup from speaker setup to amp matching. When I bought a Parasound amp I called Parasound for speaker recommendations and they had great recommendations. It works both ways if you ask the speaker dealer for amp recommendations. |
agree with @arcticdeth on speaker and listening position significance. also; imaging has much to do with first reflections to the sides, behind, below and above the speakers. those first reflections will reach your ears close enough in time to the direct sound from the speaker drivers that it will smear and confuse the musical cohesion of the stereo image. yet, if you treat those reflective surfaces too much it will deaden the sound and remove energy. so it’s a balance type of thing. consider some sort of diffusion and not just absorption. finally when you sit closer, you get more direct sound from the speakers, and the reflections have relatively less effect. so that’s a factor too. don’t blame the amps for the room and set-up issues. once you’ve done what you can with the room, then there are amplifier upgrades that will advance the realism of your listening.....but judging the amps properly does require some degree of system tuning first. very modest gear can image very very finely. it’s more a recording thing and set-up thing and room thing than cost of gear thing. it is true that higher investment in gear will many times be found where more attention has been given to the room and set-up. but cost of gear does not = set-up excellence. at audio shows many times you walk into a room with the cheapest gear and it's imaging in an amazing way compared to other rooms with much more expensive gear because the smaller more modest room has a better set-up. the actual detail and tonality and accuracy of the images can be (but is not always) more cost of gear related. but before you buy different gear, put some effort into playing around and see where it can take you. good luck. |