MC-MM-MI CARTRIDGES . DO YOU KNOW WHICH HAS BETTER QUALITY PERFORMANCE? REALLY?

Dear @mijostyn  : " I do not have access to all those cartridges and never will. "

 

Well through this thread and other threads along that post it's clear for me that you are not looking the maximum room/system MUSIC accurated reproduction enjoyment ( what is in the recording, for good or bad. )

Yes, each one of us has different targets.

R.

 

 

@lewm  : " What happened was I lost nearly all consciousness of or obsession with purely the sound quality.  I was immersed in the experience as if it was happening in front of me. "

 

Spoton. Well in a little different way that's whatshould be happens only with the sound:IMMERSED in the experience ".

 

I don't need my eyes closed to achieve that but this is me.

 

R.

 

Yeah @rauliruegas, James Boyk's Performance Recordings label LP's are mighty fine. I have 5 of them myself.

 

@bdp24 : I remember that way, I have years that I don't listen to those label recordings and this is time to do it.

The Label producers were very carefully in all the recording choices as microphones and its positions,recorder machine and kind of tape,all tube electronics, Shefield Labs team,pressingand the like.

Stereophile reviewed 1-2 of PR recordings.

 

R.

@rauliruegas  Of course all multi driver speakers do not perform the same, but they are multi driver speakers nonetheless and separate the audio band which is noticeable as you walk up the speaker. One of the cool things about full range ESLs is this does not happen. You can never tell that you are close to the speaker.

When visuals match what you are hearing, eyes open is no problem such as concert videos and small live venues. At large concerts, stadium concerts, the reverse happens. The audio is Mono. There is no audio match to the stage positions. Because Vision is our dominant sense this does not bother us as much as no visual to the audio. Listening to Herbie Hancock's Sextant with eyes closed or in a darkened room is an other worldly experience. 

Because I can't listen to every cartridge out there I am not interested in the quality of performance of my system? So, the Atlas SL, MC Diamond and Hyperion MR are second rate cartridges? I spent a year building 4 extremely high performance subwoofers and I do not care about the performance of my system? Right. 

The extension of references to SS Phon's  with fundamental design being Current Driven and Transimpidence, has encouraged myself to investigate a few Phon's demo'd in recent years that made a very good impression. 

The Phon' demo'd aside numerous Phon's and the one I am a advocate of is now learned to be Transconductance as the fundamental design.

I now know by looking at a few models used at Bake Off's that there has been a Tranimpedance SS design present. That has not been able to produce a indelible impression.

The Phasemation EA350 has been another SS Phon' experienced as a Brand New model not too far back, that has been indelible for all the right reasons to my perceptions.  This a different fundamental design to the above that are referred to. 

The SS Design I listen to the most, and has now generated 50 Sales is my friends own design.  For myself this is able to really impress, it has much of the presence of the Transconductance Desigbln and EA 350.

I intend on owning my friends design further down the line, but to feel the Transconductance Model will be best demo'd along side it in the home system. 

The Sculpture A SUT will be an excellent device to have ready to experience in the home system for this same period of demo's

 

 

@mijostyn : " separate the audio band which is noticeable as you walk up the speaker. "

 

Not in mines that are true Professional Studio Monitors ( yes, for Studio recording not to audiophiles and that's how ADS designed. Telarc was one of  the labels that trusted in those monitors. ) where you can detect something if you are walking at less than 1m. I think is better that you talk of what you have that what other experiences are . Of course that you are free to talk of whatever you want any time you want it.

 

" Because I can’t listen to every cartridge out there I am not interested in the quality of performance of my system? So, the Atlas SL, MC Diamond and Hyperion MR are second rate cartridges? "

What I posted is not " every cartridge out there " but cartridges that beats the Hyperion and MC Diamond and I don’t know about the Lambda because I never heard in my system or a well know system.

About your subs that’s really good but is something that you love and sdie for: wood building where you have not only a high knowledge levels but full tools to do it so you are really enjoying your subs building. Again, good.

 

R.

 

Dear @pryso :closed eyes/open eyes. Debate?

Certainly not because that listening characteristic is PERSONAL and each one of us is different in that specific regards.

 

It’s the same with the near field listening position, in both cases mijostyn posted what for me is his personal opinion where I disagree with him. His Amygdala has different information that mine.

 

R.

Now the subject is taking on a vety important area to be considered. 

Assessments of Audio {produced sound} are an Environmental Occurrence. 

The Amygdala sends info on into the limbic system, that generates  millions of Chemical Reactions, each unique to each individuai in how they influence a response or reaction to an exposure to a happening in their Environment. 

Read all the Books and White Papers one likes, the Amygdala is Survival, Humans are unable Control their survival mechanisms, but are very selective in academia they choose to learn . 

Nobody can evaluate or make a choice, as a result of their being a stimulus Sent to the Amygdala, without survival function having manifested,  way before choices are made. 

It something to be embraced not fought, even the smallest of willingness to comprehend is weight of one's shoulders. 

@pindac Not really chemical reaction. Read about neurotransmitters and vestibular nucleus. 

On this subject there is endless reading to be done and much is for the mindsets that are fully academic and research this field of Science.

As an absolute Layman and having learned research has stepped into the research of the Amygdala in a unusually intensified manner in the past 10 years.

There is now a lot of info that strongly suggests the Amygdala is the Gateway to how each Human has a unique relationship with their Environments and each individual are unique in their Sensory Perception.

Sound is one Sensory Perception that the Amygdala is going to process, and stimulate the Limbic System.

This is Survival and each individual is unique in how their Electrical Activity and Chemical Activity.

"With information traveling at 260 mph, more than 100,000 chemical reactions occurring per second, 86 billion cells and over 10,000 types of neurons, the human brain is probably the most complex entity known to man."

"One intriguing aspect of the limbic system as a mechanism for multiple chemical sensitivities is the system's responsiveness to both chemical and cortical stimuli. Therefore, conscious thought processes and emotional states influence limbic activity just as chemical or physical stimuli can. The former may be under more or less conscious control of the individual, whereas the latter arc almost entirely unconscious and automatic However, conscious efforts that play into the delicate circuitry of the limbic system may be able to alter or suppress concurrent electrical activity evoked by environmental agents."

My putting such info out there, is for one reason only, much of what one thinks they are contributing in elation to how an end sound has impacted on / influenced them. Is not their assessment of s Sound but a very unique response / reaction to a stimuli sent as a part of  survival function within the body from a sensory perception created in a particular environment. 

When an individual can get to the place, that they have one grain of sands worth of acceptance of this. The Flood Gates will open for them, and they will be quite liberated, knowing their interaction with sound is unique and not able to be replicated by another.

Or as an alternative, an individual might struggle with the concept of not being an authority, and will not even accept a Sand Grain of the knowledge strongly suggesting, their interaction with sound is unique, not able to be replicated by another's and is pretty much worthless to another individual.

"All things being equal" It is impossible to factor in only the Math and Production of a Particular device designed to create manage electricity. At one point the Electricity will meet with a Part designed to Transfer received Electrical Energy into a Sound.

When this sound is experienced the Human has a Survival Function, that will override all intellect, and will most likely be the control of the intellect to manifest.

All the above without adding to the mix, Phonophobia and Hyperacusis Tolerances, that are exponentially increasing in numbers being afflicted with symptoms as age increases.

I am not tested for Phonophobia or Hyperacusis, but I would bet I have a symptom discovered? I would bet I persevere with a enforced tolerance for my want to enjoy experiencing music.

Strange Fact to Ponder: Some of the most renowned and revered, who have produced Amplified Music have when tested, shown both P'phobia and H'acusis Symptoms that are quite prevalent.   

IME

$2K LOMC Cartridge- 10 / 10. The best sound I have heard vinyl make in my system.

$2K MI Cartridge- 7 / 10. Tried a supposed excellent MI cartridge and it was a disappointment.

$1K MM Cartridge- 6/10. Not bad but still did not compete with the LOMCs at or above its price in terms of refinement and dynamics.

@avanti1960 What was the $2k MI cartridge? If you don't want to say it out loud you could always PM me. I'm suspecting an Aida based on the price.

Dear friends: I had a really motivated and learning week end at my place.

A close audio friend came with a good friend of him that in the past been listened twice my system but this time he brought his 3 months old CHP1/X1 and his Lyra Etna Lambda SL and obviously with the CH recording to use the CH Wizard.

 

He ask to listen the Etna in the CH current sensing mode and that latter on in the normal voltage mode. I have to say that was and is a great opportunity for me not only tolisten the CH in my system but make several comparisons between current/voltage and even that the CH owner was not interested about we listen too MM/MI cartridges. We had a 7 full hours ( at least maybe a little more. ) of great listening fun where all of us learned.

 

We started to connect the P1 to my Essential 3180 integrated line stage for listen the Etna in current mode ( made it all the protocol in the CH digital software. ).

The CH owner knew my room/system qulity level performance . I was not surprised of the very high CH/Etna listened quality levels but who was surprised was the CH owner due that the 3180 line stage is a unique elctronic design. He brought wiith him his own LPs and I listened too to some mine. After a time weswitched to voltage mode where there we can't find out a winner mode stage and only we have a winner when we switched the Etna tomy voltage Essential 3180 that was really better than the CH in current/voltage modes. 

The lessons for allof us is that current mode in reality is not what today phono stages owners believe where the voltage in my 3180 is superior and in the CH through the 3180 line stage is at least at the same level than current mode and we had not any singlenoise levels better in current mode than voltage one. So I confirmed that current superiority is only a myht and not so good voltage designs against it.

But the big surprise for my audio friends where when I switched to a MF cartridge that @dgarretson named in this thread Astatic MF 200 where the top of the line is the MF 100 that I sold because the MF 200 is superior quality performer and the best of Astatic was the earlier MF 2500 that today I really regret to sold it.

Terrifc ( forsay the least ) quality levelperformance that no one but me could believe because the MF 200 outperformed the Etna in the CH or in the 3180. The MF 200 in the CH plays really good too but not like in the 3180.

All those confirm what in this thread and in other threads I posted that to really appreciate the true MM/MI/etc we need the rigth MM phono/line stagesand I'm proud to have it.

 

I remember than a friend Agoner that when the MMlong thread were with posts after more posts bymany audiophiles I told him to buy some of the real top cartridges that we can boughtfor less than 200 dollars and he never want it he was pesimistic/incredulous even with several audiophiles opinions about and obviously that losted that great opportunity and that same gentleman I offered twice that " rigth " MM stage and as with the cartridges he just rejected.

That's why I'm glad with the @dgarretson posts because he pulls the triger in those times, good.

That's the way I learned everything in my audio life:I almost always try everything and almost never say no.

 

R.

@rauliruegas It really depends on the cartridge Raul. The Atlas SL sounds better with a lower signal to noise level in current mode, but the MC Diamond sounds better in Voltage mode. The Hyperon only works in voltage mode. It's great that your 3180 sounds so good. Maybe your friend will purchase one? 

@mijostyn  : I can't talk on the Atlas but the Etna is similar design and sounds better through voltage design. The issue here is not " depends of cartridge " but more depend of phono stage/line electronics design. Even in the CH by a " hair " the Etna performs better than in current mode. Everything the same there is no reason for current outperforms voltage designs.

 

No he does not buy it because he has only 3 months with his CH that was an important investment around 54K and that's with out a line stage, so is an expensive stand alone phone stage.

 

Btw, I don't know yet which cartridge can outperforms the Astatic MF 200, is a tremendous and outstanding performer that at least for me tell me that phono cartridge today are only " refinenments " cartridges but I wondering which kind of refinements when a way vintage cartrridge design beats that top today cartridge and things are that at the end the cartridge motors is still the " same " with out a true deep changes. I think I paid 150 for the MF 200 that's in as new condition due that in those times I always try to buy at least 2 samples of the same model ( really inexpensive. ) due that were vintage and almost all second or third hand even in NOS condition a few times the cartridge gone down/failed.

 

R.

Perhaps we should consider, without getting quasi-philosophical, to what extent musical experiences are transferable? In other words, will one man's "best" cartridge be perceived as being the "best" by someone else? Put it like that and it seems very likely that it will not.

We always end up suggesting and promoting what we like, and that is, after all, pretty much to be expected. But someone else's preference is at best a suggestion for consideration. It is important to listen for ourselves, and to trust our own subjective experience. Fear Of Missing Out is a lousy guide to buying equipment, and while it allows us to feel like an accepted member of the tribe, it does not necessarily provide us with the most enjoyable musical experiences.

dogberry, To the question posed in the first paragraph of your post, most of us would say "of course not". We each hear differently for reasons that have been belabored here many times over.  At the same time, I would like to think that when we say something is "blue", we all have an idea what blue is, except of course those of who are color-blind with respect to blue.  So if ten out of ten or eleven of us say that a cartridge sounds like X, I tend to believe I have some idea how that cartridge sounds, in some other systems, and even though I have never heard the cartridge.

As far as this business of ascribing separate powers and specific functions that govern our perceptions of audio systems to different regions of the brain (amygdala, limbic system, etc), I say as a physician and scientist (albeit not a neuroscientist) please take that information with more than a dollop of salt. The subject is interesting but the supporting data are conditional at best.  Nor do I think it even matters how we process the audible information that comes out of our audio systems.  But certainly I don't feel that my life is threatened (necessitating a fight or flight response) when listening to Miles Davis.

Pindac, You mentioned a "transconductance" phono stage.  By that term do you mean to indicate a stage that uses voltage gain, as opposed to current gain, at its input?

With regard to Raul's recent experience with current drive, I tend to agree, but I would not at all feel qualified to say that all voltage gain phono stages are superior to all current driven phono stages. (Nor would Raul, I am sure.)  I would only say that current drive is no panacea for all that may ail voltage drive. This is based on my own experiments in my own home system using several different LOMC cartridges

Best phono cartridges 2024: The audiophile choice (stereocheck.com)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Dear @dogberry  :Everything what I posted in this thread is not " one man best " and let me explain about.

Historically when I post about electronics or cartridges that someone else brought to my place to listen his or their audio items normally the listening sessions are for the guests ( 2-3 of them , very rare that came only one ) and what this means?:

I never gave/give to them my opinion on what I'm experimenting with those " new " items in my system. Conclusions do not come from mebut from them where sometimes coicide with my take and in other times not exactly as that.Aniway at the end of the sessions always discuss about and if necesary I repeat the listen experience where are to many doubts.

My opinion NEVER is one man opinion ( at least in the late times. ) and I want to let

clear.

 

In the other side and a bout current vs voltage mode @lewm  posted: " Nor would Raul... "

certainly I can't do it because I don't know each phono stage circuit boards design but as general voltage design is the way to go and I don't want to repeat what other very high knowledge technical gentlemans already posted in 2-3 other threads. but the inconsistency of current drive wasposted here by mijos when he posted that the Lyra works really good and the MC Diamond runs better in voltage mode and that's only an example. Now, the CH is toptop phono stage design and wasnot me but other two gentlemans whom said what I posted that I agree with.

 

R.

 

 

 

probably just another reason to recommend: This is What it Sounds Like by Susan Rogers and Ogi Ogas, ii found it of some value…

 

@lewm The Transconductance Phon' , I am referring to is the Paradise.

I have heard this in various build guises, from an individual's DIY attempt.

DIY Built with a renowned UK EE who builds these as the mentor and also the Bespoke Four Box Version produced by the renowned UK EE.

I have never heard this as a sole listener, and always heard it as an attendee to a group get together, where the Resident System is costing approx' £200K.

I have heard this Phon' debated by Directors of Audio Production Companies, Individuals who have commission designed Phon's for Audio Businesses, as well as a Proprietors of Audio Retail Business, where Phon's are handled up to multi £0000's.

Across the entirety of the attendees most will agree, for the cost to produce this Phon', and the level of performance that can be eked from it between Basic Build and Bespoke Build.

Ownership of one is a no brainer, as as £10K - £20K more will be required to get close to a version of a presentation that competes.

My Tonearm Designers own Design SS Phon', only made available to the Broader Audio Community about a year ago has been compared to the above Phon'.

Interesting outcomes have followed, as a few owners of the above Phon' have superseded this with the new available Phon'.

Even more interesting one customer has superseded their very expensive commercial Phon', with this new available Phon'. 

I am very familiar with my Tonearm Designers Phon' and it is the one that I believe will be the SS Phon' that I will have around me for when I stop using Valves.          

"Transconductance" = voltage mode amplification, the way you are using the term?

@lewm

It would appear that Pindac is a devotee of the "new" sciences. If the Paradise identifies as a trans it is all encompassing.

The Paradise is a DIY phono that has a RIAA curve that has been jacked up in the bass ( "a slight enhancement in the lower frequency ranges" according to their website ). From what I can see it has a fixed 1600ohm MC input and you use loading resistors to adjust the load that the cartridge sees.

Clearly there appears to be some confusion in this thread about transconcuctance and transimpedance.

Transconductance converts voltage ( ex MC ) to current.

Transimpedance converts current ( ex MC ) to voltage.

So I assume ( I’m not a technical guru here ) that

For a transconductance phono they converting the MC voltage to current, followed by a current amplication stage to amplify the signal, and then I would assume coverting the amplified current back to voltage, since most domestic audio components assume a voltage gain device precedes them.

For a transimpedance phono, I would assume they convert the MC current to voltage at the input stage, and then amplify the signal using a voltage amplification stage.

Unfortunately many audio reviewers describe transimpedance phono stages as current gain phonos, which is not strictly accurate. Most are what I assume would be a combination of current input and voltage gain stages.

Of the transimpedance type personally I have listened to at length ( for some years ) to the Nibiru, BMC, Van den Hul Grail SE and a custom transimpedance head amp unit built by Reno Andreoli. The units built by Reto are so good I bought two of them.

The Van den Hul Grail SE and Reto’s custom units are in a different league to the others.

In terms of cartridge compatibility Reno’s cartridges are 40ohms and my units have truckloads of gain for all of my MC cartridges which range from 3-40 ohms. They will amplify any MC from 0.1mv up.

The Van den Hul Grail SE I have set up with both low impedance ( Koetsu/Kuzma ) and medium impedance ( Van den Hul Grand Cru ) - plenty of gain for both. Actually the gain range with the Van den Hul phono is massive and is dialled in to the cartridge using internal selectable settings.

From the owner of both the BMC and Nibiru he has found the matching with cartridges is quite sensitive and can produce different results between the 2 phonos.

 

 

 

 

I don't know or didn't know what a "transconductance" phono stage is, but I do know that the word "transconductance" has a specific definition, in that it is a measure of how voltage output changes with respect to current input, usually measured in A/V, and since that is the inverse of an ohm, the units are "mhos".  For triodes, typically expressed in micromhos. Anyway, Dover, thanks for your response to my question.  If you are correct, then that seems a bit of an odd way to do RIAA, since the RIAA curve is defined based on voltage changes, owing to the fact that a magnetic phono cartridge of any category, increases its output voltage according to stylus velocity, which increases with frequency. So an RIAA filter operates based on db as a measure of relative signal voltage amplitude.  But since db starts life as a measure of Power, I guess it can also be a measure of current. I dunno.

In another Forum the renowned EE Producer was asked about his setting for the RIAA, as there is talk in Build Threads about the Original Design, having a Bespoke RIAA advised by the Creator of the Paradise.

I fell confident in saying I have been demo'd Paradise Phon's, especially the Four Box Design, with the RIAA that follows:

+0.3db c 20hz and 17khz

@pindac 

RIAA that follows:  +0.3db c 20hz and 17khz

This might have been state of the art back in the early 1960's - but not even close today. There are tube phonos today more accurate than that.

You were listening to a RIAA tone control designed for the DIY/DJ market.

Bit like your much vaunted tonearm you keep banging on about which is just a modified Audio Technica AT1010 - nothing state of the art there. Its just a good 1970's tonearm - with upgraded bearings etc but still has major inherent design flaws compared to todays arms and is far from state the art around materials, energy control etc.

 

 

@dover As you are aware and others are within the Gon's Analog Section.

I have left on the Sub's Bench, equipment that plenty would really like to own, even aspire to own, as a result of the 'Personal Experiences' had through 'Demonstration' of alternatives options on tools to function as a equivalent role.

I am not forming an 'Opinion' I am making known how a 'Personal Experience' as a result of a 'Demonstration' made an impression.

I totally agree that my assessment made known is merely another 'Opinion' in the mix, and it is relevant to where my interest is at present.

The idea that certain experiences are indelible, keeps them at the forefront of sharing experiences.

Your last comments made are I assume based on your want to have a say other than an assessment of a direct experience through demonstration.

I am pleased to inform you, that you are to get the Hat Today to wear the following in a very Public Place:

 "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

    

I looked for the Paradise on line. Found a thread that included many favorable opinions of 3- and 4-box versions. Seems to be a mix of SS and tube gain devices. Since it’s got tubes for gain, I doubt it operates based on current or transconductance, unless the latter term is used to describe voltage mode. Because tubes lose transconductance as they age which would screw up RIAA. But still, it is much admired. Reminds me of the Herron phono that has ardent supporters in this side of the pond.

@rauliruegas  It is not the inconsistency of current mode or voltage mode. It is the inconsistency of cartridges. In my experience the cartridges that work best in current mode have an impedance less than 5 ohms. It is generally said 10 ohms, but I think this is overly optimistic. I would not use transimpedance mode with any cartridge with an impedance higher than 3 ohms. Then the performance is definitive. This represents a very small selection of cartridges, the point being that if a phono stage can not do both formats it should not be considered a viable option. 

Dear @dover : You are rigth, that RIAA spec is a ridiculous one but  thatonly says the " stupid "level/audio knowledge that has whom posted. I never read his posts, useless.

Btw, this is coming from the manufacturer site:

 

" Ideal for professional use in bars and clubs and for at-home DJs and musicians who know what an RIAA curve should sound like, "

Who know what an RIAA should sound like: Really?. Same stupidity .

Yes, we have to learn about.

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : " It is not the inconsistency of current mode or voltage mode. It is the inconsistency of cartridges. "

NO, it's the inconsistence of your current design phono stage where the manufacturer works more for specs than almost everything in his designs.

 

As the @dover  current design phono stages my experiences with the Classé Audio first true high end current design/Natural Impedance Loading where exactly the same working perfect to over 40ohm cartridges.

Additionala gentleman with my 12 years ago phono stage voltage design and against the BMC ( that I know does not works for specs only.) he prefers that voltage design with the same cartridges and LP recordings.

 

I just had the Swiss made CH current/voltage design with almost the same Lyra you own and the voltage unit I own outperformed and I know that the CH is way better design that your unit. Maybe your experiences about are alittle tolimited using that current design unit and perhaps you never had the opportunity to listen a state of the art voltage phono state design.

So, you and me have different first hand experiences about and that's all. Cartridges are not the culprit,at least not the MC Diamond that you can besure will performs very well in the CH.

 

R.

@rauliruegas Then, Why does my Atlas sound better in current mode? It also has more gain and a better signal to noise ratio.

It is a pleasure to learn that certain individuals make it their concern to Censor my Posts and not read them. The fact effort is made to achieve this, strongly  suggests there is some underlying emotional triggered issues not able to be resolved.  

It is also Hilarious to learn of a certain individual, who has added as a very recent  content to their Posts, the referencing ‘Amygdala’ and a Value for a RIAA. Is not having read Posts from the individual having brought these Subjects to the forefront of a discussion, suggesting Telepathy is now able to be exercised.

The idea of having Telepathy as an extension of the usual senses, is a little bit Fantastical. I would use Fantastical, another might say Delusional.

There are many times on the Gon, that my finger tips radiate a smile on each Keyboard contact. There are Posts made / to be made that are to make the involvement a highly amusing place to be, when interacting on the Gon', especially the Analog Section. 

Such effort in place for the avoidance / pretending to avoid 🤣 my Posts, do seem to be limited to the forum member, that are as a Keyboard Cruncher, making themselves known in a very small area of activity.

It does seem as a forum member, this type of individual has found a place where being Obsessed with their neediness to be seen as an Authority and being Significant has a place that a tolerance is shown for it. 

I also express a Tolerance to it, otherwise, I might express a different reaction to the ugliness of Posts that can delivered with such sprite or venom.

Let the Jury decide on how ugly and venomous a Post can be.

For those that are looking in and not too involved with their contributing. There are certain individuals within a Forum, that are present with a predatory pursuit , they are regularly, maybe even always, contributing to steer.

Again let the Jury decide on the agenda of the individual.

Within certain Threads on Audiogon, certain types of agenda where self interest is the fundamental, is attached like a Humongous Carbunckle. It becomes the Cornerstone of the Subject under discussion. Possibly my suspecting such Self Interest is once more prevailing , is the basis of this Post. Is not there recent announcement's of new electronics merchandise coming to fruition ??, especially centred around, previous Phon' Models being superseded with new models. 

I don't doubt anybody's capabilities who make claim, to be able to produce  electronic devices, maybe some above average, to be used for Audio Purposes. As I am not familiar with much work undertaken, it would be silly to suggest a Audio Product does not satisfy, as a result of not having received a Demo’ and in front of listening experience.

I also don't believe that the Math is King as some do, there is plenty known to strongly suggest the Math is one Variable in the overall.

The Math for the Electronics only becomes Sound as it leaves a Speakers Cross Over and Drives a Speaker to move Air.

Sound is the transfer of an energy to make air move.

Sound is the end goal, and assessing sound is a great way to decide where one is content with the experience being had.

All that comes before sound is management of electricity through a range of devices. 

When voicing of a device is undertaken, the Math can be tweaked endlessly to create a perception the end sound is a betterment.

When voicing a device that is already proven adequately in the Math Department, the end sound is the area of interest, the Math concern becomes a lesser interest.

End Sound is what matters, End Sound is the area that almost all with an interest in Audio Equipment express as an Interest.

All Electronic Devices assembled to produce a Audio System will produce sound, as the end result and that in general is plenty enough for most.

A smaller selection of users of Audio Systems seek out a refinement of the end sound being produced. Usually making decisions on very very personal preference's for their attraction to a particular sound.

I make references to my own preferences in Threads and on occasion, others who contribute are seen to express their own too.

Also what is interesting is that those who put substantial attention on to the one variable being the Math, are not too forward with their perceptions of sound. It does seem there is a selection of individuals who are seemingly convinced that the Math supersedes the requirement to be influenced by the end sound.

This selection of individuals who are seemingly convinced that the Math supersedes the requirement to be influenced by the end sound, may have something, but I am where I am in my own Journey, and as I don’t do the Math, it is an area I leave to other’s better than myself at such practices. As in all academic activity, there are expanses of knowledge and learning capability that differentiates individuals. One would be considered conceited if there self assessment of their capability was unusually elevated.

 For myself to date, I remain totally trusting of individuals I have selected for their adeptness and skillset in such an area where Math is required.   

As an individual who has experienced the end sound from a reasonable amount of Systems, which has incurred a broad range of Costs to create. As well as having heard selected devices added to a few systems that have been quite impressionable.

I have confidence and little concerns about my assessment of an end sound being produced. As an assessment offered from myself, is solely based on my unique preference for what an end sound can offer, along with a description of the impression having been made.

In relation to all Demo's had of the Paradise, it has been on a £200Kish System.

The Demo's were carried out in comparison to a range of Phon's present on the days I was in attendance of which the upper price range exceeds £10K.  

I have never heard this as a sole listener, and always heard it as an attendee to a group get together.

The following is something the individuals with a Self Interest might not want the broader forum membership to be introduced to:

I have heard this Phon' debated by Directors of Audio Production Companies, Individuals who have commission designed Phon's for Audio Businesses, Proprietors of Audio Retail Business, where Phon's are handled up to multi £0000's and I can also add, a UK Known Audio Journalist with over 30 Years as a Journalist/Editor.

Across the entirety of the attendees and cross talk, it would seem most will be somewhere in an agreement, that for the cost to produce this Phon', and the level of performance that can be eked from it between Basic Build and Bespoke Build, to have this as an item of interest would be very wise and prudent with ones finances.

As an assessment made with confidence, based on experiences had, an individual might just find their end game Phon', that presents in a way they are totally satisfied with  for very very sensible monies. It costs $00.00 and no pressure applied from the self interested types, to take the time to see how a Paradise Phon' can be produced for themselves.

For myself, I have my interest on another SS Phon' produced not too long ago and one that is continuously gaining a following across the Globe.

A Statement follows, that was made earlier in this Thread reflects my own activities around Audio and one that I am total agreement with.   

"Unfortunately I no longer have that decent sized group of audio friends nearby.  That was important since in San Diego I had opportunities to hear many different audio systems in a variety of home settings.  Just like live unamplified music, and the almost embarrassing number of components I've gone through, hearing a multitude of different systems is an education for our ears. "

I tip my hat to the foot work done.

Locked away solely in a room, and believing one has all the credentials to be a Armchair Audio Critic - Blah Blah Blah. 

To those using Telepathy - Happy Fantastical Reading 🤣🤣🤣

 

Dear @mijostyn : Good question that does no " talks " about cartridge inconsistences but phono stages with different design quality levels.

My experiences with the CH confirmed that statement because the same cartridge Etna Lambda SL runs in current and voltage design with no differences in signal to noise ratio and this against your unit speaks that the voltage CH design is really good because there is no reasons for a current design ( everything the same, specially the design quality level/knowledge down there. ) with same cartridge been superior to a voltage design.

Now, it’s way more easy to design a current mode phono stage that a voltage mode one and not all designers have the same knowledge level for both kind of designs but at the end there is no advatage between current vs voltage.

Other that CH I can’t remember other top top phono manufacturer using current design. I think that CH did it as marketing as a way to earn more money with out a true justification for the customers as is too the additional to RIAA different eq. curves and even the Wizard but it’s Ok because that’s the way for CH to offer its products to the market and always exist customers in that market for it as for your unit too.

 

" the point being that if a phono stage can not do both formats it should not be considered a viable option. "

 

Well, that is only a very personal statement that has a meaning only for you ( you are married with with out really knowing why. ) and that can’t be justified in anyway for cartridge owners that what the only thing we are looking for is the maximum MUSIC enjoyment where a good voltage design can and did it for years. Why have I to pay an additional money for that other option that in reality can’t outperforms the voltage one?

Please ask to Boulder, Gryphon, Dartzeel, FM Acoustics, Moons, and the like. Btw, Dartzeel designer says about :

 

 

" A lot has been written about phono amplifiers with a current source or voltage source… Many contemporary current source phono preamps claim that they are the something mostly unique and much more “modern”. Delétraz begs to differ. And with a reason…

The NHB-18NS uses a truly low impedance voltage source input so that the cartridge can express itself rather than being imprinted by the electronics signature of the phono stage.

Delétraz does not regard the source phono stages as inferior. All the contrary!

Delétraz does not regard the source phono stages as inferior. The CTH-8550 from 12 years ago already used a current source phono stage because it was easier to design it for a given (high) performance level. From Delétraz’s point of view, the revival of current sources and the assertion of anything new is not quite up to beat…"

 

R.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not sure if this reviewer is using a Wooden Chair for their reviews.

There is a similarity to a certain thought pattern where Large Sums of Monies parted with ensures the best is to be had.

  

Dear @robert53  : Thank's for the new 2024 cartridge link..

Obviously " more of the same "  due that  in that regards nothing really can chage totally.

The Dartzeel cartridge looks as a heavy $$$ one and the information about says nothing special:

 

Model: FS 00 Founder Series

 

• Body ULH gilded with gold leaf
• Cantilever Squared diamond
• Stylus material Pure natural (non synthetic) diamond
• Stylus shape darTZeel ultimate proprietary shape
• Output voltage 0.066 mV
• Output impedance 2 ohms
• Coils – one single layer pure silver coated copper
• Frequency response 10 Hz – 100 kHz ± 1.5 dB
• Rise / fall time less than 1.5 µs
• Channel separation > 30 dB

 

Dartzeel has other new cartridges:

 

FS01 Founder Series

 

• Premium service
• Two free retips included within 5 years following delivery.
• Custom installation by the darTZeel team and/or Hervé Delétraz himself.
• CHF 53’535.35

Description

• Body ULH machined wood
• Cantilever Squared diamond
• Stylus material Pure natural (non synthetic) diamond
• Stylus shape darTZeel proprietary shape
• Output voltage 0.077 mV
• Output impedance 4 ohms
• Coils pure silver coated copper
• Frequency response 15 Hz – 25 kHz ± 1.5 dB
• Rise / fall time less than 2 µs
• Channel separation > 28 dB

 

and the FS02 Founder Series

 

• Premium service
• Two free retips included within 5 years following delivery.
• Custom installation by the darTZeel team and/or Hervé Delétraz himself.
• CHF 42’424.24

Description

• Body ULH machined wood
• Cantilever Ruby
• Stylus material Pure natural (non synthetic) diamond
• Stylus shape darTZeel proprietary shape
• Output voltage 0.088 mV
• Output impedance 5 ohms
• Coils pure silver coated copper
• Frequency response 20 Hz – 22 kHz ± 1.5 dB
• Rise / fall time less than 2.5 µs
• Channel separation > 28 dB

 

What all these cartridges shares is its very low output that the DartZeel phonolinepreamp can handled with out problem due that its active high gain stage goes at over 83db of amplification.

 

Well, we have to wait for owners opinion in its quality level performance and how compares against the top today cartridges. We will see.

 

R.

 

 

 

Dear friends: DartZeel showwed in June-2023 a prototype ( @mlavigne  was there. ) and from the information in this link seems that the cartridge price includes a phono stage but I can’t be sure today:

 

DartZeel Phono Cartridge (audioshark.org)

 

R.

I have been impressed in a way that is difficult to describe as a result of my experiencing a Carefully Thought Out Approach to producing a Low Eddy Signal Path in use on the Circuit between Cartridge to Power Amp.

I do know the Low Eddy Approach is now in use on the Power Amp connections as well.

This is something at present that is the highest of priorities to attempt to get right when I rebuild my system, which might prove to be the most cost effective betterment I have achieved in a very long time.

My search to Compliment the Low Eddy experience extended to discovering if devices used were specifically produced from Scratch to improve on the Management of a Low Eddy Signal. My interest being I would attempt to introduce these items as a curiosity to see where furthering the benefits might be realised.

My Search lead me to a discovery that is at present Free and unfortunately at resent I am not able to experience the part as I would like, which leaves the experience to be postponed.

The ECC System will have to wait for my own purposes.

Hopefully a Forum Member will Jump at the chance to experience for Free a affordable Cart' that has build standards and material selection not usually adopted that should be off appeal.

The Link will introduce Forum Members to a option for a Cart' that is very very realistic.

I have not heard this Cart' in use, so can't make a statement with conviction.

I will suggest, by using such a Cart' as the 'LS 10MkII' with a Phon' like a Paradise, or a Design like one produced by Salas.

For not too much monies there is plenty of memorable experiences to be had.

There is also a good Possibility a Phon' will be discovered that is not wanted to be exchanged.

Obviously my references to a Phon' of a certain type, are met with something that resembles the Viv Tonearm debacle. Look how many were convinced their usage was correct and the converts that manifested as the futile discussions kept on spieling out. 

My own introducing the Le Son Cart' Brand to this thread will most likely be met with Similar Viv Arm duplicated moments.

I really don't care, the options put out, are obtainable and reachable by many who are merely attempting to learn how to refine their listening to their Album collection.

My advise is silly monies are not a requirement to listen to an Album. 

 

Btw and about those DartZeel cartridges: even that what @mikelavigne  listened in that show he posted that sounds " very very good " and he listened through an analog rig similar to one of the 3-4 he owns and his Dartzeel electronics. This for me says a " lot " and I could think that the finished cartridge is even better.

The issue is how good is the cartridge in a non Dartzeel electronics.

 

It's weird that in the DartZeel web-site does not appears the cartridges.

 

R.

 

R.

I suspect that the biggest single factor in an RIAA stage is the capacitor dielectric. Once you have heard air gap or vacuum, there's no going back. IMO.

Dear @terry9 : Well, there are some really critical factors in the RIAA curve stage and depends on what the designer decided is the best overall quality performance level kind of design.

In our phonolinepreamp caps are critical as resistors too. Yes,almost all know that the best dielectric is the air and in a different place I experienced years ago with IC cables with air as dielectric and over the time were outperformed for " normal " dielectric cables, in reality never sounds better but just different.

Now and talking only on caps I have to say that everything the same probably you are rigth however a cap is more than dielectric and I’m not trying to diminish the dielectric importance down there.

I have deep first hand experiences with caps running in speaker crossover and electronics as the RIAA and at the input of my 20.6 Levinson monoblokcs that functions as coupling ( by Levinson design ) and at the same time as high pass filter in my crossover aso this cap is two times critical in that electronics as in the RIAA.

I even started a cap issue thread that thanks to that I made " hundred " of discoveries that at the end let me know that I was wrong with my way of thinking that in those times and about caps were for the boutique caps levels as: Duelund, Mundorf, V-Caps, Clarity, Jantzen, Audyn, and the like. I used and tested all those names and using its top models as the Duelund silver or V-Cap teflon Cu.

No one in those both applications where I used can’t compete against Wima ( this was my conclusion. ) looking for true/real neutrality.

Wima does not uses Cu or Silver ow any other inmaginable cahrateristics as paper in oil or in wax and other aberrations as that but in the input of my 20.6 I was using a very expensive V-Cap Teflon Cu and Wima outperformed with out any single doubt and for afew dime$ ( no more than 5.00 vs over 300.00 )

Nothing can’t beats a good electronics design using the rigth model Wima cap that’s way humble cap at any standard but we have to remember that Wima is the Standard in the whole Industry not only audio.

For me it’s more important the design of the cap and the quality level excution of that design and in these Wima is way superior no matters what, in some models Kemet is very near to along Vishay.

You can look to almost any good electronics design and all of them use Wima, yes the red/blue ones different models. Boutique caps are MKTG making money with each one ignorance levels ( including manufacturers. ). I paid thousand of money for those caps ( I have to say: heavy colored caps, each one in different ways but down there just does not exist neutrality. ) and yes it was a very high price paid it but finally I learned and here there is no true going back.

In the audio world happens things that many times maybe we don’t have a scientific response due to its complexity of to many invloved parameters, the caps is an example but next an example of a truly old cartridge wher even its output pin connectors are not gold plated but is a true challenge for any today top cartridge. I made a review of and several gentlemans testify different sessions what I said in the thread:

 

Audiogon Discussion Forum

 

So, it’s dificult for me to confirm the air dielectric in caps other that my experiences with the IC cables. Wima knows for sure what it’s doing. Yes, almost no one likes Wima in the analog/electronics audio signal path because has not any coloration you can detect: this is why.

 

R.

I had much the same experience with caps - Wima was quite good, some of the boutique brands not. I settled on Multicap styrene caps as being the most neutral.

As for direct experience and experiment, I can help you there. I did experiments with a break-out box, then on alternate channels of my phono stage.

Since all the good caps use a dielectric with a dielectric constant in the 2 - 2.5 range, and vacuum and air are very close to 1.000, I wondered. I thought that maybe radio stations that used $10,000 caps knew something that I didn’t. Tried those dielectrics in the same circuit as my favoured Multicap and it was no contest: clearer, cleaner, and far smoother (ESL system powered by mono blocks with air bearing / Koetsu front end).

Costly, though. Very bulky. And a wee bit tricky to design for. But worth it, IMO.

PS high pass filter in my crossover aso this cap is two times critical in that electronics as in the RIAA

You can’t be serious.

@terry9 : Why can’t be serious? I’m refering that the same cap runs as the amplifier coupling capacitor and at the same time I’m taking advantage on that Levinson design and is used too as the high pass crossover for my speaker/subs.

So, the high pass filter is not an additional " nothing " in the speaker/sub audio signal,I just use that coupling cap for both jobs.

 

Btw, for years I used the Multicap polyestirene ones and still own in stck several samples and asafactI use it today in the high pass filter for the add-on back speaker tweeter that works from 7khz up. Btw, in my system applications main speaker crossovers and amplifiers input coupling caps the Multicaps were and are beated easily for theWima model I’m using and Kemet does the same. In my external hard wired speaker crossovers I’m using the Kemet for the woofers instead the Wima.

 

Now,all what I have to do is to make a self test at the input of the amplifiers and in the speaker tweeters waiting that the size of the air caps permits that I do it.

At both places is very easy to me detect be aware if the air cap can beats the Wima I’m " married ". I can’t make the test in the RIAA due that then we have to re-calibrates everything in that circuit to achieve our 0.012db RIAA deviation and this is to much work for us rigth now.

 

R.

 

 

 

 

 

"Can't be serious" because a phono signal is 1/100 the size of a line stage signal, and any distortion is therefore magnified 100 times before the crossover. That was my reasoning. Do you think that my reasoning is flawed?

@terry9 Unfortunately, it is flawed. Not only is the distortion amplified but so is the signal. The distortion remains the exact same percentage. 

I used to use the Multicap RTX caps for critical applications. (Those are the polystyrenes.) But in my listening opinion, the teflon capacitors that came along later are far better (REL or other). In fact, now I cannot bear the RTXs, and I have a bunch of them in many different values. I also found some 2uF/200V polystyrenes (so not applicable for RIAA or hi-pass filtering unless your filter is set at a high-ish frequency), made by PAS (Pacific Audio Supply), that are unsurpassed for output coupling capacitors. I originally bought 36 of them to use as a high pass filter in my Sound Lab speakers, and when I totally removed the high pass filter in the speakers, I ended up with a box full of the PAS which I then tried experimentally in output coupling and now love. Sadly, PAS is now defunct. I have several PAS polystyrene also in 0.22uF/600V; Ralph used to use them as internal coupling caps in his OTLs. They’re superb but fairly large and don’t fit everywhere. For low value capacitance below 0.1uF, I have found the Russian silver mica capacitors the most absolutely transparent. I use them in RIAA. They were or are cheap on eBay. I guess my point is that no one company or no one type of capacitor is "best" for all applications.  You have to experiment and listen.

Dear @terry9 : Please: can you share with me the link of your air dielectric source and models? here:

 

rauliruegas@hotmail.com

 

Appreciated, thank's in advance,

R.