MC-MM-MI CARTRIDGES . DO YOU KNOW WHICH HAS BETTER QUALITY PERFORMANCE? REALLY?

That video wherein J Carr talks about many aspects of cartridge use and design reveals also that Benz helped Lyra obtain cantilevers, in addition to the brands named above.

Dear @mijostyn : " There is not an antique cartridge I would care to audition "

I understand you because you have no single idea of the very high quality level performance of someof those " antique " designs ".

Well, several years ago I bougth the Empire MC5 and never listened till in the last 4 months  I even did not know that the cartridge is an owner stylus replacement design and I took in count of that when I try to mount in the arm and seen that I can’t put the screws in place ( you can’t almost see the joint between that replacement part. ).

I have to say that I did not had any exiting spectation about other that to take a listen to this vintage design that in reality never appeared in the market as it and I just found out one sample in NOS condition.

After 4 months is the cartridge I’m listening day by day and enjoying truly MUSIC, this is a huge/outstanding discovery of the past no matters what and can beats almost all the today top LOMC cartridges I listened in my room system including the MC Diamond and Etna Lambda SL, yes differences in between these cartridges are not nigth and day but the Empire MC5 is something to listening it and to enjoy its LP reproduction.

The design and build including the stylus diamond was made by Ernst Benz his self,nothing less. What a wonderful MUSIC Instrument.

https://www.turntableneedles.com/Empire-Moving-Coil-Cartridge-MC5-Ernst-Benz_p_752.html

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=16132

" Ernst Benz was an engineer working and developing delicate instrumentation (such as accelerometers) for CalTech in the ’60’s, and later managed an industrial jewel company in Switzerland manufacturing timepiece and industrial jewels as well as sapphire phonograph needles. He formed his own company in the early ’70’s, with the desire to produce a superior diamond phonograph stylus. To further facilitate this, he developed a high temperature vacuum furnace for bonding diamond to sapphire (for which he was awarded a patent). Throughout the ’70’s, Benz Micro became one of the largest suppliers of diamond styli in the world, providing support for such companies as Ortofon, Philips, Pickering, ADC, Audio Technica, and Empire (which was later acquired by Benz). "

MC 5 surrounded with today top room/systems is nothing less that Awesome and could be even today and near future a true challenge to beat it for any cartridge manufactuer.

In reproduction has it any anomalies? none that I detected and maybe because I’m not listening the hardware but enjoying MUSIC.

I think that in those old times I paid no more than 200.00 for it.

R.

@rauliruegas "live MUSIC main characteristic that is its natural continuous flow” thanks Raul for `very fundamental question!

some technical points to watch to achieve it:

1) very important for realistic sound is a phase information of different tones (freq.), which is “distorted” by speaker design details, diff-freq.-speakers misalignment to the listening point), cartridge design (cantilever, diamond, coils inductance, damper). Measuring phase/group delay of total system to the listener ears would be ideal test, but it is not available yet.

-designing system with limited (ideally none) number of feedback loops and (phase/level) distorting sound by too-many filters in a system, incl. not really needed damping, limiting bandwidth etc. I found as excellent 2 stage tube amp with almost no fb-loop sounds better from “live music alike side”, despite lower power and bit higher single tone distortion.

-MC cartridges are more precise and sound good, IF interconnect btw cartridge terminals and phono-pre/SUT is excellent, low resistance / inductance etc., which is hard to achieve (few ohms in the arm cable and old contacts kill it). For aged arms/cables I prefer excellent MM carts, like AT-ML180 / 170, sounding naturally and requiring lower track force (I use 1gf).

Dear friends: Seems to me that we forgot of one live MUSIC main characteristic that is its natural continuous flow.

That characteristic can’t even in our system because we have no " continuity " in what the stylus pick-up under grooves ride due to those stylus " jumps " ( at microscopic level. ) during tracking.

Obviously that each cartridge has different abilites about and the " flow " of the MUSIC through any of those cartridges has different quality levels.

Btw, @mijostyn this and all the other live MUSIC characteristics are what permits any one of us to evaluate/compare cartridges in between to have each one of us answer or answers to the questions of this thread. Your " reference " on antique and today cartridge models is useless and futile ( for say the least ) because things are that all those MUSIC characteristics function/are working with any cartridge: new or vintage, this is not the matters of the OP and through your 27 posts you touched at least 3 times ( ? ? ? ).

Anyway, what all of you think about that MUSIC flow continuity that I see as a characteristic.

R.

OK Raul, Here it is. I prefer very expensive moving coil and moving Iron cartridges, recent ones. There is not an antique cartridge I would care to audition. I do not collect cartridges, I use them up and move on. The best cartridges  sound surprisingly alike. The sound quality of any system is far more dependent on the speakers and room. Asking people what cartridge they prefer is colored by their own preferences and the quality of their system. 

Dear @theophile  : " We know irrefutably that someone is actually singing and someone is actually playing. Even when the sound transmits through a closed building. "

Totally right and the main issue belongs to the live MUSIC kind of transients response that's absolutely UNIQUE and we can't mimic in anyway.

From that unique transient response comes the MUSIC dynamic power that permits to listen and know for sure that the sound  coming ( as you posted ):

" There is a quality to a live in the flesh non-amplified voice or instrument. "

Any room system is far far far away of that unique transients response.

Main differences between any room/system and in our thread subject between cartridges belongs and starts to that transient response and its speed.

Mijostyn ( I named because I'm still waiting for.....) could have a different points of view why he thinks/likes his Lambda SL is a " hair " better than the MC Diamond, unfortunatelly he never disclosed in this thread what is his take.

Anyway, only an opinion but again I agree with you.

R.

Reference Points only last as long as the tome it takes to discover the next reference point.

Anybody who thinks there is not a next reference point, in my view has lost the desire to discover new experiences with end sound being produced using audio equipment.

Additionally, if an individual has built a system that leans towards giving the Bass Frequency a larger slice of pie, in relation to coherence across the frequency range. Why ?, would it be suggested the individual is in need of a device to reduce the Bass Notes presence. Is not the individual entitled to produce he end sound that gives them the most satisfaction. 

Dear @mijostyn : " I generally stay away from making those kinds of comments Raul because people have no idea what my baseline is, what my system sounds like......"

As lewm you have a misunderstood of what I ask through my post because I don´t care ( well, I care but it’s not what I posted to you ) how your sound system is in the same way that that was not the thread questions.

As those posted other gentlemans statements main sound Characteristics are what could makes the differences why we like more this kind of cartridge than other or others because what we like is not the main issue of this thread and maybe you have additional whole listen characteristics that you can share with us. This is all about.

We have to have specific references when we make tests MUSIC/sound comparisons/evaluations. not only on cartridges but with any audio item.

For some or many of us those posted statements is the " food " that is already in each one table ready to eat, maybe not for you because exist other main characteristics that you have and we need to take in count or maybe you are in agreement with and nothing to add.

R.

I agree with Mijostyn. For me, the only thing I can learn from reading the opinions of others on this or that piece of gear is that if 8 or 9 out of 10 hold the same or similar opinion, there may be some truth to it. Still, I approach even that much consensus with caution.

@rauliruegas I generally stay away from making those kinds of comments Raul because people have no idea what my baseline is, what my system sounds like. I have no idea what your system sounds like. If you tell me a cartridge has great bass I have no way of interpreting that. Comments like, "low distortion" or "Great tracking" apply to all systems. I mentioned that the Hyperion was a bit bright on my system, a problem I can easily correct with digital EQ. The Hyperion might be perfect for someone with a system that is tilted towards the bass. 

Because I have set up and measured many systems I can assure you that the performance of individual systems is vastly different, even with the best equipment. The result is that people's tastes are vastly different and their assessment of equipment is biased by this making it impossible for me or anyone to interpret what they are saying.  All I can say of my cartridges is that they are all within a hair of each other. They are all great performers from a mechanical perspective. The Hyperion leans towards brightness on my system and I wish the MC Diamond had a higher output level. The Lyra is perfect, no alterations needed......on my system. 

I posit a scenario about live music:

This is not a theoretical exercise. We have all experienced it. Music/ someone singing or both/multliples. We are outside of the building. There is no direct sound transmission of the live in the flesh performance. All the doors and windows, all passages between outside and inside are closed. The sound which is transmitted to the outside environment is comprised of the structural, windows, doors, leaking soud to the exterior. A highly distorted transmission of sound.

Yet we KNOW indisputably that the leaked distorted sound comes from actual person(s) and instruments.

There is a quality to a live in the flesh non-amplified voice or instrument that we recognise from a block away. Even when were just catch it in the distance and listen as we walk toward the source. We know irrefutably that someone is actually singing and someone is actually playing. Even when the sound transmits through a closed building.

It must be a dynamic-transient power which gets diluted in our recording and playback attempts.

Dear @mijostyn   You posted 25 posts in this thread and knowing you and your experience levels is truly weird that in no one of your posts mentioned the characterisitcs of the sound you listen in your system that permits that you can have and overall evaluation and comparison in between any audio item that in this case/thread is about cartridge kind of motor design quality valuations in between. You only said that your Lambda SL is your champ because you say so and that's all even that some gentlemans posted the next statements that  permits more or less to have an idea what to take in count to give each one of us answers to the thread subject:

" Startling attack, immediacy, presence, full-bodied tonality, dynamics, and imaging. "

" MUSIC and MUSIC quality levels belongs to Transient Response in a home audio system or live MUSIC.

That Transient Response is what gives us first than all immediacy followed by dynamics. "

" without rhythmic integrity music is pretty meaningless. "

"  “fast transient speed” is closely tied to how well the rhythmic elements of the music are expressed  "

Yes, I would like to know what do you think on those statements and if you can add something else to enhance the dialogue for all of us. Thank's in advance.

R.

@lewm   :  ​​​​I agree with @frogman , it's not " immediacy "  where this characterisitc exist even in mistracking.

It's like in horn speakers where we have that immediacy kind of sound that does not changes during cartridge mistracking.

My first hand multiple experiences with my cantileverless Ikeda cartridges tell me that those kind of cartridges could not pick-up all the grooves information as medium/high cartridge compliance due that its grooves ridding is not do it with " aplomb "..

R.

I agree it’s not audible as “mistracking” necessarily. That was my point.

Re Deccas: @lewm , I suppose it could be, but I don’t hear it as such. Whenever I hear mistracking from a cartridge I hear it as an obvious distortion. Sometimes subtle, sometimes obviously grating. When I hear other cartridges mistracking I don’t hear an increase in immediacy or rhythmic thrust, but rather, tonal/textural distortion. Additionally, “immediacy” is not experienced only when there are loud transients or complex passages in the music which are common causes of mistracking. Instead, immediacy is experienced as a general sense of aliveness in the music at every loudness level, even very soft levels; like a coiled spring ready to jump at any moment.

I've never experienced mistracking with either the Jubilee or the Reference!

With the Decca cartridges I have owned, I’ve always wondered whether their noteworthy zip and immediacy were not a fortuitous byproduct of mistracking owing to their lack of a cantilever. Sometimes imperfect is more.

**** the audio signal trip from the cartridge to the speaker output be the shortest as we can:less is more. ****

@rauliruegas , My experience has also been that less is often more. I realize that there are other design choices that come into play, but this would explain, at least to some degree, why the Decca cartridges have that wonderful sense of speed and immediacy. No cantilever. Less is more, Shorter (mechanical) signal path. An extension (🤔) of this idea would seem to be the sonic benefits one often hears by having signal paths in electronics that are as short as possible, the elimination of solder joints and, ideally, connectors in tone arm (and high level) cables.

Dear @lewm @frogman :  So,more or less we agree about the way critical importance of the SPEED transient response.

In a live MUSIC event between you and the MUSIC exist almost only the AIR when in a home audio systems it's a nightmare about and transient speed reproduction is way to way different and totally imposible to achieve that grat dynamics and power that only live MUSIC has.

Both audio proccess recording and playing almost destroy MUSIC, even that we like what we  can listen through.

We can't do nothing with the recording proccess but we can take extreme care for the room/system play proccess.

So, if we agree of the importance of the transient response speed then we must be in alert that the audio signal trip from the cartridge to the speaker output be the shortest as we can:less is more.

Our system set upshould has only the system links neccesaries to listen it. Any additional cables,connectors, after market " enhancers " and the like will modify and and develops a degradation to that transient response speed and I think that could includes the SUTs.

I can't  know what you or others think on this specific system set up issue and obviously opinions are welcomed.

R.

I agree completely with lewm’s comments. The “outstanding quality of real live music compared to electronic reproduction of music is the dynamics of the former”. And not just as concerns the wide amplitude one hears in live music, but how the dynamic movement in the music is expressed during the literally infinite number of subtle dynamic gradations one hears in live music (a key element of musical phrasing).

I can’t claim to be able to be able to explain or prove, in technical terms, why this is the case, but “fast transient speed” is closely tied to how well the rhythmic elements of the music are expressed by the equipment. To my simple mind it also explains why some gear (not just cartridges and speakers) sounds dynamically/rhythmically alive while others sound dead or lethargic even when capable of wide amplitude.

There likely is something to the idea that cartridge transient response is very important to conveying the sense of a live performance (studio or concert), because for me when I attend live music (as I will be doing in about 2 hours from now), the outstanding quality of real live music compared to electronic reproduction of music is the dynamics of the former. Dynamic responses or the sense of a dynamic response requires both a very rapid transient response and a wide range of amplitude (difference between the highest SPLs and the lowest SPLs). Not only do cartridges have shortcomings in this regard, but also speakers. At least that is my sense of it.

Dear friends: Through the posts that all of youposted we, more or less, are in agreement that evrything the same wecan have first rate/top quality listen system experiences with the different kind of cartridge motors:MC, MM, MI etc, etc.

Obviously that with the cartridge self colorations.

Well, I was doing some testsusing the top same LP tracks with different choosed LOMC,HOMC,MM,MF,MI. trying to find out ( other thmaiat its intrinsecal cartridge  colorations. ) where mainly belongs the quality levels of each top cartridge sample and I think ( something I'm not totally sure. ) that comesfrom the " kind " of transiente cartridge response this is the Speed of that transient response.

Is it that way of think about true or just does not matters?  whatdo you think abou

t?  I would like to learn through your first hand similar experiences.

Thank's you in advance and your posts heavy welcomed.

R.

Dear @theophile  : That you mentioned  that is extremely appreciated and yes I could czan test and compare against the 981 what the HZ does but I think that before that we can interchange information where maybe I can help for you can listen in your system:

rauliruegas@hotmail.com

Thank's and again truly appreciated,

R.

I am seriously thinking of sending both the LZ-9S and the HZ-9S to you Raul. I haven't got the arm for them here.

Dear @theophile : I think that some of the gentlemans that posted about in AK have a misunderstood because never existed the Streohedron III ( as one of them named. ) and : why now I that?

because the dimensions of that III version in the Epoch 9S is exactly the same dimensions that comes in my Stanton 981 HZ MK2 and same cantilever length.

In the other side and looking the SR , your calibration data and my manual and calibration card seems to me that the cartridges you own as I told you before are very good performers but at least for the information not superior to the 981 MK2. Obviously that I can’t confirm it but through my first hand several experiences with any kind of cartridges there is " nothing " that could tell me can beats the 981MK2 ( HZ. ), even my sample cartridge seems/could be better because Stanton says that its high frequency goes over 50khz and in the Epoch 9 stops at 50khz ( important?. I don’t think so but is " something . Other issue is that in the SR JH said that for the Epoch could track  the Telarc 1812 it did it only at VTF 1,25grs. and mine does it cleanly at 1.0gr. and I never tested at 0.75grs. on VTF but I will do some day because at the end it tracks 100u.

All in as every day is a learning day and this one was and is a learning onr for me.

Than’ks again and surely I will wait for your first hand experiences with.

R.

Some more

Lew, here is a discussion on AudioKarma about the series

Also here is some more info

Theophole, is the Epoch II LZ9S a modern, current product? I own an NOS Stanton 981LZS and an NOS CS100, but I’ve never heard of “Epoch”. Thx. 

I don't.

Dear @theophile : Good/nice to meet you again in Agon.

No, unfortunatelly I never had the chance to listen in my system but were Stanton top of the line in its times as were the CS 100, both 981 II and Pickering 7500.

All those share with the Epoch the same famous Stereohedron stylus and all those are the only Stanton/Pickering cartridges that came with that  individually Calibration Card reserved for the top models.

I still own the 981 HZ that I use with the Pickering stylus holder because it makes a better/tigther asssemble with the 981 body than with the Stanton own stylus and performs a little better.

I only can add that you are lucky enough the own two very good MM cartridges that even today are way competitive under any quality standards.

Btw, when I started and through the years in that long MM thread I seen on Ebay for sale and never pull the triger due that I owned all its other " brothers ".

I think that you will like it when you can give a listen sessions and if you can could share with us your experiences with in this thread or the long MM one.

R.

Raul,

Have you used the Stanton Epoch II LZ9S? I have a NOS LZ9S and HZ9S. I posted the specifications here:

Another one interesting cartridge information from a true expert. This gentleman is the retipper I’m using and is a great one: Joseph Long.

Btw, the Goldring 1042 uses a similar stylus diamond that the Replicant 100 however its VTF is only 1.5grs.

@needlestein is the Agon moniker of J.Long.

R.

@mijostyn   : 

Audiogon Discussion Forum

Audiogon Discussion Forum

R.

 @mijostyn :  No,I'm not kidding you the subject is that you think that because you have a " super-microscope " that makesyou a cartridge expert but certainly you are far away from be a cartridge expert not even with decent knowledge levels.

" contact patches " : Replicant 100 is the FG 100 ( Gyger ) that came in the Ortofon Bronze/MC Diamond with VTF at around 2.5grs. but the Cadenza Blue comes with a way smaller " contact Patch " FG70 and VTF is exactly the same Ortofon recomendation.

I heve not time right now to completemy answer that I will  latter but the anterior information says that:" Are you kidding me? ".

R.

@rauliruegas Raul. you have to be kidding me. The styluses with the largest contact patches by far are the Replicant 100, The Soundlabs MR and the Gyger S. Not far behind are Lyra's Stylus, the MSL stylus and the Soundsmith OLC sylus. These are all modern styluses. I have studied all of them under the microscope and you have seen the pictures. The end result is that even with higher VTFs the actual pressure (PSI) the record is subjected to is lower, in some cases, much lower. Another factor is modern styluses are much smaller and mounted in ways that lower effective mass. All this improves tracking. The lightest assembly is definitely on the Hyperion MR.  

Matching the Effective mass of a tonearm to the compliance of a cartridge is a very simple matter. Just measure the resonance frequency. Nobody today that I know of makes a tonearm like the Infinity Black widow or the Michell Vestigial which in my mind is a good thing. They are way too flexible. The Syrinx PU3 proved in most minds that stiffer tonearms perform better. Thus you have arms like the SAT and the 4 Points. I never liked FR tonearms, they are beautifully made overpriced garbage, but that is me. You like them and a lot of people like them. I also do not like the SAT arm. The Kuzma 4 Point is a much better value. 

Again you have to be kidding me. My entire system is operated digitally including the turntable. The turntable's RIAA correction is digital which is way more accurate and better sounding. Most of my listening is done with ALAC files. The only reasons I listen to records are I have thousands of them, the habit is burned into my brain and I enjoy F-ing around with turntables, bicycles, 911s and Motorcycles, things that go around and around.

Dear @mijostyn : I don’t know why you are following posting no-sense information almost false and un-true.

Medium mass tonearm " require lower compliance ": totally false at any audio standard.

I own amodern mediummass tonearm and several vintage medium tonearms, I know what I’m talking about. You can ask lewm how good performs and with which kind of quality high compliance cartridges in his FR64/66.

" contact patches of modern styluses are far larger ", false again. MSL uses a semi-line contact, Ortofon still today uses Shibata/FG 70/FG80 y FG 100 not even the FG 110/120, Etsuro Gold 80u Micro-Line similar to the old AT cartridges.

Where is the problem then? that today LOMC cartridges are to heavy: your MC Diamond 17.5grs, MSL13grs, etc, etc.

The other problem is that today does not exist the heavy and very hard competence that in the old times cartridge market.

Matsudaira designer MSL cartridges designed too ( example ) Luxman vintage LOMC cartridges with a lower weight than 6grs. and with high compliance as other cartridges as Miyabi or Audiocraft that were not so diferents than the Luxman ( I owned severalof his cartridges including Supex. )

You love analog and tubes so you are living in the PAST not only me, difference is that I truly know how achieve maximum MUSIC enjoyment with that really archaic analog medium.

You know that I respect you but certainly not the false information you are sharing with us.

R.

@rauliruegas It is very true that none of our modern day cartridges are near as compliant and track as light as cartridges back in the 70s and 80s, nor should they. The contact patches of modern styluses are far larger and the pressure loading even lighter than it was in spite of the lower compliance and higher VTFs. We discovered that those featherweight tonearms of yor do not sound near as good as modern, stiff, intermediate mass arms which require a lower compliance. I am very happy with the performance of modern cartridges and tonearms and have no desire to live in the past.  Mike

Dear @mervo  : I don't know what you mean: " removed by the OP ", I did not.

You are totally right with your last sentences:

"  our collective audiophile hobby has no price points, just the desire to appreciate music and seek the respective affordable way to attain one's maximum output. "

That's the best each one of us can do. Thank's for share your opinion.

R.

     This thread is so far removed from the original poster (OP) that I won't even try to bring this one back. I have 3 Rega turntables and after the 4th time switching out the spacers from my B880 tonearm, I braised the locking screws. I became disgusted with the Rega (control freak) way even though the Asia, Asia Pro and Apheta 3 I had use previously were auto synched to the table, I wanted to experience other MC offerings which required spacers.

     In any event, I decided to buy a Technics 1210 G and added several cartridges on different headshells including an AT33GTP/II MC (excellent), a Hana Shibata MC and a Denon 103R. I then added an Ortofon Black 2m (MM) to the mix and started doing some comparisons. 

     The least expensive cartridge in this lot is the Denon 103R, but at $600 it is open and breathes easy, especially for a conical stylus. The Ortofon Black 2M is probably among the best moving magnet designs I ha=ve ever heard but it lacks that high end my B & W Signature 702 S2s command. Don't get me wrong, in many systems, higher end moving coil cartridges are not a good value. My system is fairly high end and I invest more $$$ for cartridges to maximize the sound profile I am looking for. 

     On my Rega Planar 3 anniversary, I tried the Apheta 3 and realized that anything above the Ania Pro would not improve the sound. I then put the Exact 2 back on it and it performed well. Sounded within its boundaries. The Ania was a small upgrade from there, but in this mid-fi kit, (speakers are B & W 703 S2s), these carts were fine.

     Finally, we all hear distinctly and what may be too high in the treble, may be perfect for someone else. I prefer natural bass with a reasonable decay (I balance the 702 Sigs with a REL ST/9x)--my daughter, the disco queen feels the "bass" is too light. As I said to each his own. Bottom Line: our collective audiophile hobby has no price points, just the desire to appreciate music and seek the respective affordable way to attain one's maximum output.

@mijostyn : It’s not coincidence that the Denon DL1000A not only goes to 110khz but runs at only 0.7grs been a LOMC cartridge but its cantilever that’s a short one is made of amorphous Boron pipe. The Highphonic uses diamond short cantilever and very high compliance to runs at 0.9grs.

Btw, Technics uses a technical: chemical vapor deposition to manufacture its cartridges Boron pipe.

Top cartridges in those times normally came with effective moving mass in the range: 0.098-0.22. Usually. The Technics 20’5MK4 had 0.149 on that parameter.

Today we can’t find out any single cartridge with those kind of numbers or any LOMC cartridge that can runs not at 0.7grs-0.9 not even at 1.25grs

Today times are very good and in the past were truly great specially with cartridges/tonearms/TTs but not electronics. Today are great times in electronics and very good in speakers if not excellent.

R.

Btw,  even today we can find out with a little patience the ADC 26 through ( mainly ) ebay.

The ADC 26 is not exactly for any cartridge because the extreme compliance of 50cu that comes in that ADC design.

I think that all the cartridges ( any cartridge motor kind design. ) named here sooner or latter we can put our hands on it and is worth to try it.

When those vintage cartridges comes in good operation conditions you can be aware of its high quality performance levels and you can get for " penauts " prices.

I know that for several of you vintage is " forbidden " because we want the new ones but at the end: is it not the maximum MUSIC enjoyment through our LPs what we are looking for?

If yes, then new or vintage cartridges can satisfy that MUSIC maximum enjoyment

Don't you think? because in my audio life that's what I wa sand am always looking for but maybe that is only me and for me.

R.

I have tried to find value in this Thread but have not been introduced to anything that has got my attention, apart from the cost of TOTR MI Cart's, which won't suggest as being educational in relation to Audio as a means to create sound.

The Thread has caused myself to rethink a few things about my own contribution's to the Analog Section of this forum, so much that I can't but help sense, my repetitive covering of personal experiences had are seemingly mundane and not really a stimulus to encourage others who may look in to try something new.

For those who are looking in bit not contributing to the thread, I really hope something of value has been discovered from what has been read.

On that note, I will be taking a Hiatus from being a contributor to the Analog Section of Audiogon. 

To all I have interacted with on the Analog Section, all the best in your future endeavors.  

Dear friends: I forgot to talk of my oldest and a true cartridge gem that I don't listened in a few years and I will do in the next weeks because righ now I'm hooked up by a Ernst Benz colector design where even the stylus was made it by him self.

Here my oldest cartridge reviewed 6 years ago:

R.

Lewm, my mistake because I don't care about. 

If you don’t care, why do you keep arguing about it? SS claim the stereo Hyperion exhibits >36db stereo separation at 1kHz. Separation is pretty good at high frequencies too. Period.

As stated in a earlier Post 

"I would suggest a Cart' with a Cantilever produced from a Two Layer Boron Tube, has the ultimate Boron Type Material as a Cantilever.

The Technology required to go to the lengths to create the Boron Tube was quite a feat in itself. The Techies' in the hey day of Cart' R&D had some very interesting moments probing where to go next.

Need a Bake Off,  Boron Tube vs Gold Plated Boron".

Interesting how my Posts are not read, but my subject content is at a later date referenced as the Cornerstone of another claim.    

Dear friends: The world of cartridges is really fascinating specially if you experienced the whole one over the years like me. I don’t know if any of you has my first hand wide cartridges experiences ( perhaps @dover but I don’t know for sure ).

My MUSIC knowledge levels other that the live MUSIC experiences comes from that cartridges world and it’s from here when that so critical MUSIC characteristics as Transient Response has a true meaning and you know for sure it’s the way it has to be and when you already had those experiences with the best of the best year after year for years it’s nothing but outstanding and fascinating as I said.

Now, imagine a pair of two different LOMC cartridges that runs at 0.7grs and 0.9grs with a wide FR of 110khz and very low output at 0.12mv and that can reproduce with high aplomb and true fidelity the Telarc 1812, go figure !. Yes Highphonic and Denon. Yes, both high compliance at around 26cu, there is no other way ( Physics Laws as mijos said. )

That MM Technics EPC 100CMK4 is not only the one with so low effective moving mass ( the world lowest. ) but with the widest FR range of any cartridge from 5hz to 120khz where only 2 SUTs I know ( one vintage I own and other today design. ) can shows off/brag that kind of wide FR range.

Exist a cartridge that runs as low as 0.25grs VTF with out mistracking that comes with a nude miniature diamond with 1 mil tracing radius.

I’m way fortunate to have all those years opportunities/experiences and that I still today can share with all of you other than the long MM thread.

R.

lewm: could be so what? Now I see that you trust in those 2 different models that shows exactly same specs?. which one was measured? or were measured both?

Never mind, who cares, not me.

Raul, you’re misreading the data table. And what would be the meaning of “stereo separation” applied to any mono cartridge? Try again.

Btw, I owned or own all those top vintage cartridges that I named.

That Technics MM cartridge can’t be overall beated for any MI design including the AKG P100 LE however the MM AT ML180OCC or the AT25 are a true challenge for it.

As a reality exist several great MM/MI/HOMC/LOMC that came from those old times. Lyra and VDH designers know it.

R.