MC-MM-MI CARTRIDGES . DO YOU KNOW WHICH HAS BETTER QUALITY PERFORMANCE? REALLY?

Dear @richardkrebs : How you doing?  rauliruegas@hotmail.com

R.

When the Pair of Bespoke Phon's, of which I have one in use, was undergoing being built. Part of my commitment to the design was to contribute to the purchasing of parts to be used or tried out for experimental purposes.

As the Prototypes progressed, an increase to the alternate parts to be exchanged were being introduced, as a purely experimental venture.

All selected Parts inclusive of Caps, Resistors were perfectly matched to each other, I can't recall exactly but feel confident the criteria for accuracy was as low as practically sensible to read for the parts. I'm sure one man's cut off for being an accurate match is another man's poison?

The Prototype was under this type of control for part matching from initial build through to final selections being made.

As a supplier of Parts, I found this accuracy at times to be quite costly, as Cap's were bought in excess, with many only to become discards. Resistors were more Pocket Book Friendly.

Additionally when selected Parts were to be exchanged, the exchange part had been exposed to a period of burn in, to give it a improved chance to perform at its best. The EE was even making allowances for new solder needing a burn in period. 

Having Two Prototypes running Parallel as a build, made it very easy to evaluate changes being made as there was only on Phon' receiving the mod's at a time.   

When the end sound was first discovered that was really wanted to be worked on, other parts on the Schematic were swapped out to see how the end sonic was effected.

Valve Bases were swapped, the impact on the end sonic was quite relevant, as different bases were discernible for altering the sonic. The Bases selected in the end, were a Pure Copper Pin design, but were also a design where the Valve fits as if it is almost mechanically fastened. Certainly not tube exchanging friendly. These Bases really stood out on how the end sonic was perceived for being a betterment.

My experience of having been present to assess the impact on the end sound of a Phon' as a result of exchanging components, has been that there are Components that can create a end sonic that is extremely attractive in comparison to an alternate part used, especially one selected for the high spec' and matching.

Not only did I receive a Phon' that has been carefully produced using parts not typically selected for their matched levels. 

I also received a Phon' voiced to my own unique wants using Parts that are not typically selected for the Spec' and matched levels.

Is there really any need to be looking anywhere else to have a experience of listening to Vinyl?

For me yes, do the same once more with a design I have recently been experiencing on a regular basis, but this time postpone the venture to a later date and do to it all once more with a SS Design. 

Why not have the best of both Schematic Types that are affordable to oneself, at their fingertips to be experienced, as Phon' Only, Phon + SUT, Phon + Head Amp.

I know one thing for sure, as result of having Two Bespoke Designed Phon's produced, one Valve Input / Output and SS, by two very very skilled EE's in this field. 

I will still have substantial monies in reserve, through my not using the route of purchasing only one Branded Design of a particular schematic type, that may be able to prove itself as being close as a equivalent to one of my options.

I will state it once more, that the user of a Vinyl Source, who really enjoys their replays, and would like to venture into experiencing a replay that is maybe able to deliver a sonic that is perceived as being more refined to their usual experiences.

DOES not have to spend Stupid Sums of Monies to experience Phon's, that may just prove through being experienced, to be more than enough to be end game keepers. 

I am confident that a selection of Vinyl users, owning commercial Brand Phon's, could sell on these models, and for the monies received or a small addition, get more out in front with a electronic device. If choosing to use a non commercial route to achieve their next Phon' experience.

Russian silver mica capacitors on eBay and give them a try....

These are absolutely as transparent and neutral as a TI TX2575 resistor. 

This is not possible. Capacitors have phase shifts, resistors don't.

 

Dear @lewm  :Through my audio years I modfied the elctronics I owned but  never touched any RIAA circuit mainly for what terry9 pointed out about in this thread.

Of course that all depends of the manufacturers quality designs and the owner targets.

First issue with the RIAA it's that is not linear but a developed curve whre any frequency change affects around two frequency octaves and this fact means that will introduce a coloration/distortion added that many times and depending of the quality system resolution we can or not aware of it.

It's not only about colorations but RIAA overall deviation.

In our designed units we can't even change a 0.022 uf and not only for all those but we were and are so demanding that going from measured 0.022uf to 0.023uf has a consequence, nothing comes by free depending on that design and your targets and we have to think that that cap is not only the cap but its very close relation ship wwith the other passive parts.

Well, that's me and nothing more than an opinion.

 

R.

I don’t design RIAA circuitry. That’s over my head. I substituted.022 uF caps into an RIAA that already required .022uF.

@lewm  : " I have used.01uF and .022uF values mostly, in an RIAA circuit,  "

Was a RIAA circuit designed by you?. In a RIAA circuit using caps adding capacitance ( somewhere ) changes the RIAA deviation curve but if was you who designed it then you made a new calibration and if not that was a very bad " move " even if you like the result.

 

R.

I have a box of Russian Cap's for a Speaker Xover design that was put in place for me.

I highly recommend to anyone who knows how to solder and likes to experiment with different capacitor types that you acquire some Russian silver mica capacitors on eBay and give them a try. They are VERY large for very small values but very inexpensive. I have used.01uF and .022uF values mostly, in an RIAA circuit, and I use one at the inputs of my Beveridge amplifiers. The highest value I know about is 0.13uF, and those are about as big as half a pack of cigarets (if anyone can remember a pack of cigarets). These are absolutely as transparent and neutral as a TI TX2575 resistor. This is not just my opinion; the Russian silver micas have a bunch of followers on TubeDIY Asylum. They generally are rated for 350V, so can be used in most circuits.

Dear @lewm  : We need in the RIAA passive trusty ( bullet proof.) parts and the air electric has several issues about and what you can get today are variable value caps not fixed ones. For me it's out of question in the 3180 but I had to learn about and I did it thank's to terry.

 

In the other side audiophiles are not mentally prepared for the almost absolute neutrality with Wima/Vishay/Kemet caps in the audio signal. Almost all audiophiles areaccustom to additional colors other than the natural MUSIC color in the LP reproduction.. Now, if they do not know thatsome of those caps are in the audio signal you can be sure that never will be aware of it and will like what they listened throughly.

 

R.

The idea of having choice is a stimulus.

The extra effort made to produce changes as a result of making choices is a experience of learning.

I was learning all the time, to the point I settled for a particular sonic that was easily able to be Wed.

Once that discovery was made, I could no longer care for what other alternatives to the end sonic may be able to be produced.

I have been contented to this day and not thought about change. 

A related issue with using air dielectric capacitors in phono stages would be drift as air heats up or humidity changes. Thus it would be difficult to maintain accurate RIAA. On the other hand I guess the pF values in RIAA would be relatively easy to construct.

Raul, no, I cannot say I ever critically evaluated WIMA capacitors, except to say they’re all over the 3160, and I do like the 3160. I’ve not had the urge to tinker with it in any way except for the attenuator upgrade, which you know about.

Should have added, "Wish others would try it." Not you, Raul.

@pindac 

Glad it's working for you. Nothing like an experiment to inform an opinion.

@terry9 Stated "But the results are ... worth it to me."

Exactly my assessment of the additional time and expense added to my commission built Phon', when Voicing to my liking was a part of the build stage.

After having been demo'd a variety of VC's on a Pre Amp that is quite enjoyed.

I was also left very impressed after a Demo' using a particular expensive VC.

For my own design for this amp, I have had two Bespoke Built Mono VC's of a similar design, but with tighter matching for each channel.

I am yet to use them, but a friend who has them, is using them Temporarily on their builds, using them with a selection of VC's, and really likes the influence. 

You are most welcome, Raul. I agree with all of that - air and vacuum caps are impractical for standard production and only good for a one-off by an utter maniac with more time than sense. But the results are ... worth it to me.

Dear @terry9  : Thank you. Unfortunatelly the fixed ones hasvery low pf capacitance and are NOS so we can't get it in future and along that in reality for different reasons needs a special circuit board to use it.  It's not a true viable " excellent " option for a phonolinepreamp and non-imaginableforcrossover speakers.

In the other side I read somethings about  that kind of capacitors:

 

" One disadvantage of using air as a dielectric in a capacitor is that it has a relatively low dielectric constant compared to other materials. This means that a larger distance between the plates is needed to achieve the same capacitance as a capacitor with a higher dielectric constant material. Additionally, air is not suitable for use in capacitors that require a high level of stability or precision."

that could means bigger dimensions that other caps.

" In summary, an air capacitor would not be a viable energy storage option because the flowing air would not retain a dielectric constant necessary for the capacitor to work properly. "

" 

An air capac is a capacitor that uses air as a dielectric, and this capacitor can be designed in fixed or variable capacitance form. The fixed capacitance type is not often used because there are different types of fixed capacitors with much better characteristics than it, so the variable capacitance form is more frequently used due to its simple construction.

Air capacitors are usually made of two sets of semicircular metal plates, which are separated by an air dielectric material. Of these metal plates, one set is permanent and the other is attached to a shaft that allows the operator to rotate the assembly to change the capacitance when needed. When the overlap between the two metal plates is large, the capacitance is higher. Thus, the highest capacitance condition is reached when the overlap between the two sets of metal plates is maximum, while the lowest capacitance condition is reached once there is no overlap. For better capacitance control, finer adjustment, and higher accuracy, a reduction gear mechanism is used.

In addition, the capacitance value of air capacitors is very small, ranging from 100pF-1nF, while the operating voltage range is from 10 to 1000V. The breakdown voltage of the dielectric is small, so the electrical breakdown inside the capacitor can change, resulting in poor operation of the air capacitor. "

 

So, for me at the endyour adviselooks as useless in practic audio way.

 

Btw, the  self by-passing Multicaps means higher developed inductance that's not good and maybe from therecomes its kind of coloration that's away from the neutral Wima/Vishay or Kemet ones. Only my opinion through first hand experiences.

 

Thank's again, I learned.

 

R.

 

Without going into referencing Parts being exchanged. 

My experiences had where Voicing Phonostages and Line Level Pre Amp's and even a Tonearm through Internal Wand Wire exchanges as a Signal Path has been that all Voicing methods used will add,

It is how much perceivable addition one is willing to accept as the goal of voicing. 

Again I have heard identical designs used in comparison, with only a few choice components in use changing the base build. 

When comparing for a short duration a change might be discovered that has increased attraction.

Allow a lesser liked model to have a extended play time, and the preferred model is not pined for. 

This is aldi the same with same models and differing VC's. 

Some VC's can pop with attraction. 

Today I look on it similar to CD and Vinyl. 

A short term comparison there are differences detected. Let either run on and neither not being used are pined for. 

Disclaimer: Many periods of comparison are not carried out with myself in a wooden chair. 

My findings might be accused of being compromised. 

 

 

@mijostyn I should have mentioned a possible x - intercept. What you wrote is true if everything is linear and the x - intercept is 0. That is, there is a noise floor.

Surplus Sales of Nebraska. Many values, all small. At least, that was years ago.

@lewm  Interesting experience of yours. I ended up using my teflon film and foil for component level power supply filters. Don't suppose you'll like to sell some of the RTX?

@lewm  : Do you tested Wima as coupling caps? and if yes: which model?

 

R.

Dear @terry9 : Please: can you share with me the link of your air dielectric source and models? here:

 

rauliruegas@hotmail.com

 

Appreciated, thank's in advance,

R.

I used to use the Multicap RTX caps for critical applications. (Those are the polystyrenes.) But in my listening opinion, the teflon capacitors that came along later are far better (REL or other). In fact, now I cannot bear the RTXs, and I have a bunch of them in many different values. I also found some 2uF/200V polystyrenes (so not applicable for RIAA or hi-pass filtering unless your filter is set at a high-ish frequency), made by PAS (Pacific Audio Supply), that are unsurpassed for output coupling capacitors. I originally bought 36 of them to use as a high pass filter in my Sound Lab speakers, and when I totally removed the high pass filter in the speakers, I ended up with a box full of the PAS which I then tried experimentally in output coupling and now love. Sadly, PAS is now defunct. I have several PAS polystyrene also in 0.22uF/600V; Ralph used to use them as internal coupling caps in his OTLs. They’re superb but fairly large and don’t fit everywhere. For low value capacitance below 0.1uF, I have found the Russian silver mica capacitors the most absolutely transparent. I use them in RIAA. They were or are cheap on eBay. I guess my point is that no one company or no one type of capacitor is "best" for all applications.  You have to experiment and listen.

@terry9 Unfortunately, it is flawed. Not only is the distortion amplified but so is the signal. The distortion remains the exact same percentage. 

"Can't be serious" because a phono signal is 1/100 the size of a line stage signal, and any distortion is therefore magnified 100 times before the crossover. That was my reasoning. Do you think that my reasoning is flawed?

@terry9 : Why can’t be serious? I’m refering that the same cap runs as the amplifier coupling capacitor and at the same time I’m taking advantage on that Levinson design and is used too as the high pass crossover for my speaker/subs.

So, the high pass filter is not an additional " nothing " in the speaker/sub audio signal,I just use that coupling cap for both jobs.

 

Btw, for years I used the Multicap polyestirene ones and still own in stck several samples and asafactI use it today in the high pass filter for the add-on back speaker tweeter that works from 7khz up. Btw, in my system applications main speaker crossovers and amplifiers input coupling caps the Multicaps were and are beated easily for theWima model I’m using and Kemet does the same. In my external hard wired speaker crossovers I’m using the Kemet for the woofers instead the Wima.

 

Now,all what I have to do is to make a self test at the input of the amplifiers and in the speaker tweeters waiting that the size of the air caps permits that I do it.

At both places is very easy to me detect be aware if the air cap can beats the Wima I’m " married ". I can’t make the test in the RIAA due that then we have to re-calibrates everything in that circuit to achieve our 0.012db RIAA deviation and this is to much work for us rigth now.

 

R.

 

 

 

 

 

I had much the same experience with caps - Wima was quite good, some of the boutique brands not. I settled on Multicap styrene caps as being the most neutral.

As for direct experience and experiment, I can help you there. I did experiments with a break-out box, then on alternate channels of my phono stage.

Since all the good caps use a dielectric with a dielectric constant in the 2 - 2.5 range, and vacuum and air are very close to 1.000, I wondered. I thought that maybe radio stations that used $10,000 caps knew something that I didn’t. Tried those dielectrics in the same circuit as my favoured Multicap and it was no contest: clearer, cleaner, and far smoother (ESL system powered by mono blocks with air bearing / Koetsu front end).

Costly, though. Very bulky. And a wee bit tricky to design for. But worth it, IMO.

PS high pass filter in my crossover aso this cap is two times critical in that electronics as in the RIAA

You can’t be serious.

Dear @terry9 : Well, there are some really critical factors in the RIAA curve stage and depends on what the designer decided is the best overall quality performance level kind of design.

In our phonolinepreamp caps are critical as resistors too. Yes,almost all know that the best dielectric is the air and in a different place I experienced years ago with IC cables with air as dielectric and over the time were outperformed for " normal " dielectric cables, in reality never sounds better but just different.

Now and talking only on caps I have to say that everything the same probably you are rigth however a cap is more than dielectric and I’m not trying to diminish the dielectric importance down there.

I have deep first hand experiences with caps running in speaker crossover and electronics as the RIAA and at the input of my 20.6 Levinson monoblokcs that functions as coupling ( by Levinson design ) and at the same time as high pass filter in my crossover aso this cap is two times critical in that electronics as in the RIAA.

I even started a cap issue thread that thanks to that I made " hundred " of discoveries that at the end let me know that I was wrong with my way of thinking that in those times and about caps were for the boutique caps levels as: Duelund, Mundorf, V-Caps, Clarity, Jantzen, Audyn, and the like. I used and tested all those names and using its top models as the Duelund silver or V-Cap teflon Cu.

No one in those both applications where I used can’t compete against Wima ( this was my conclusion. ) looking for true/real neutrality.

Wima does not uses Cu or Silver ow any other inmaginable cahrateristics as paper in oil or in wax and other aberrations as that but in the input of my 20.6 I was using a very expensive V-Cap Teflon Cu and Wima outperformed with out any single doubt and for afew dime$ ( no more than 5.00 vs over 300.00 )

Nothing can’t beats a good electronics design using the rigth model Wima cap that’s way humble cap at any standard but we have to remember that Wima is the Standard in the whole Industry not only audio.

For me it’s more important the design of the cap and the quality level excution of that design and in these Wima is way superior no matters what, in some models Kemet is very near to along Vishay.

You can look to almost any good electronics design and all of them use Wima, yes the red/blue ones different models. Boutique caps are MKTG making money with each one ignorance levels ( including manufacturers. ). I paid thousand of money for those caps ( I have to say: heavy colored caps, each one in different ways but down there just does not exist neutrality. ) and yes it was a very high price paid it but finally I learned and here there is no true going back.

In the audio world happens things that many times maybe we don’t have a scientific response due to its complexity of to many invloved parameters, the caps is an example but next an example of a truly old cartridge wher even its output pin connectors are not gold plated but is a true challenge for any today top cartridge. I made a review of and several gentlemans testify different sessions what I said in the thread:

 

Audiogon Discussion Forum

 

So, it’s dificult for me to confirm the air dielectric in caps other that my experiences with the IC cables. Wima knows for sure what it’s doing. Yes, almost no one likes Wima in the analog/electronics audio signal path because has not any coloration you can detect: this is why.

 

R.

I suspect that the biggest single factor in an RIAA stage is the capacitor dielectric. Once you have heard air gap or vacuum, there's no going back. IMO.

Btw and about those DartZeel cartridges: even that what @mikelavigne  listened in that show he posted that sounds " very very good " and he listened through an analog rig similar to one of the 3-4 he owns and his Dartzeel electronics. This for me says a " lot " and I could think that the finished cartridge is even better.

The issue is how good is the cartridge in a non Dartzeel electronics.

 

It's weird that in the DartZeel web-site does not appears the cartridges.

 

R.

 

R.

 

I have been impressed in a way that is difficult to describe as a result of my experiencing a Carefully Thought Out Approach to producing a Low Eddy Signal Path in use on the Circuit between Cartridge to Power Amp.

I do know the Low Eddy Approach is now in use on the Power Amp connections as well.

This is something at present that is the highest of priorities to attempt to get right when I rebuild my system, which might prove to be the most cost effective betterment I have achieved in a very long time.

My search to Compliment the Low Eddy experience extended to discovering if devices used were specifically produced from Scratch to improve on the Management of a Low Eddy Signal. My interest being I would attempt to introduce these items as a curiosity to see where furthering the benefits might be realised.

My Search lead me to a discovery that is at present Free and unfortunately at resent I am not able to experience the part as I would like, which leaves the experience to be postponed.

The ECC System will have to wait for my own purposes.

Hopefully a Forum Member will Jump at the chance to experience for Free a affordable Cart' that has build standards and material selection not usually adopted that should be off appeal.

The Link will introduce Forum Members to a option for a Cart' that is very very realistic.

I have not heard this Cart' in use, so can't make a statement with conviction.

I will suggest, by using such a Cart' as the 'LS 10MkII' with a Phon' like a Paradise, or a Design like one produced by Salas.

For not too much monies there is plenty of memorable experiences to be had.

There is also a good Possibility a Phon' will be discovered that is not wanted to be exchanged.

Obviously my references to a Phon' of a certain type, are met with something that resembles the Viv Tonearm debacle. Look how many were convinced their usage was correct and the converts that manifested as the futile discussions kept on spieling out. 

My own introducing the Le Son Cart' Brand to this thread will most likely be met with Similar Viv Arm duplicated moments.

I really don't care, the options put out, are obtainable and reachable by many who are merely attempting to learn how to refine their listening to their Album collection.

My advise is silly monies are not a requirement to listen to an Album. 

Dear friends: DartZeel showwed in June-2023 a prototype ( @mlavigne  was there. ) and from the information in this link seems that the cartridge price includes a phono stage but I can’t be sure today:

 

DartZeel Phono Cartridge (audioshark.org)

 

R.

Dear @robert53  : Thank's for the new 2024 cartridge link..

Obviously " more of the same "  due that  in that regards nothing really can chage totally.

The Dartzeel cartridge looks as a heavy $$$ one and the information about says nothing special:

 

Model: FS 00 Founder Series

 

• Body ULH gilded with gold leaf
• Cantilever Squared diamond
• Stylus material Pure natural (non synthetic) diamond
• Stylus shape darTZeel ultimate proprietary shape
• Output voltage 0.066 mV
• Output impedance 2 ohms
• Coils – one single layer pure silver coated copper
• Frequency response 10 Hz – 100 kHz ± 1.5 dB
• Rise / fall time less than 1.5 µs
• Channel separation > 30 dB

 

Dartzeel has other new cartridges:

 

FS01 Founder Series

 

• Premium service
• Two free retips included within 5 years following delivery.
• Custom installation by the darTZeel team and/or Hervé Delétraz himself.
• CHF 53’535.35

Description

• Body ULH machined wood
• Cantilever Squared diamond
• Stylus material Pure natural (non synthetic) diamond
• Stylus shape darTZeel proprietary shape
• Output voltage 0.077 mV
• Output impedance 4 ohms
• Coils pure silver coated copper
• Frequency response 15 Hz – 25 kHz ± 1.5 dB
• Rise / fall time less than 2 µs
• Channel separation > 28 dB

 

and the FS02 Founder Series

 

• Premium service
• Two free retips included within 5 years following delivery.
• Custom installation by the darTZeel team and/or Hervé Delétraz himself.
• CHF 42’424.24

Description

• Body ULH machined wood
• Cantilever Ruby
• Stylus material Pure natural (non synthetic) diamond
• Stylus shape darTZeel proprietary shape
• Output voltage 0.088 mV
• Output impedance 5 ohms
• Coils pure silver coated copper
• Frequency response 20 Hz – 22 kHz ± 1.5 dB
• Rise / fall time less than 2.5 µs
• Channel separation > 28 dB

 

What all these cartridges shares is its very low output that the DartZeel phonolinepreamp can handled with out problem due that its active high gain stage goes at over 83db of amplification.

 

Well, we have to wait for owners opinion in its quality level performance and how compares against the top today cartridges. We will see.

 

R.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: I'm not sure if this reviewer is using a Wooden Chair for their reviews.

There is a similarity to a certain thought pattern where Large Sums of Monies parted with ensures the best is to be had.

  

Dear @mijostyn : Good question that does no " talks " about cartridge inconsistences but phono stages with different design quality levels.

My experiences with the CH confirmed that statement because the same cartridge Etna Lambda SL runs in current and voltage design with no differences in signal to noise ratio and this against your unit speaks that the voltage CH design is really good because there is no reasons for a current design ( everything the same, specially the design quality level/knowledge down there. ) with same cartridge been superior to a voltage design.

Now, it’s way more easy to design a current mode phono stage that a voltage mode one and not all designers have the same knowledge level for both kind of designs but at the end there is no advatage between current vs voltage.

Other that CH I can’t remember other top top phono manufacturer using current design. I think that CH did it as marketing as a way to earn more money with out a true justification for the customers as is too the additional to RIAA different eq. curves and even the Wizard but it’s Ok because that’s the way for CH to offer its products to the market and always exist customers in that market for it as for your unit too.

 

" the point being that if a phono stage can not do both formats it should not be considered a viable option. "

 

Well, that is only a very personal statement that has a meaning only for you ( you are married with with out really knowing why. ) and that can’t be justified in anyway for cartridge owners that what the only thing we are looking for is the maximum MUSIC enjoyment where a good voltage design can and did it for years. Why have I to pay an additional money for that other option that in reality can’t outperforms the voltage one?

Please ask to Boulder, Gryphon, Dartzeel, FM Acoustics, Moons, and the like. Btw, Dartzeel designer says about :

 

 

" A lot has been written about phono amplifiers with a current source or voltage source… Many contemporary current source phono preamps claim that they are the something mostly unique and much more “modern”. Delétraz begs to differ. And with a reason…

The NHB-18NS uses a truly low impedance voltage source input so that the cartridge can express itself rather than being imprinted by the electronics signature of the phono stage.

Delétraz does not regard the source phono stages as inferior. All the contrary!

Delétraz does not regard the source phono stages as inferior. The CTH-8550 from 12 years ago already used a current source phono stage because it was easier to design it for a given (high) performance level. From Delétraz’s point of view, the revival of current sources and the assertion of anything new is not quite up to beat…"

 

R.

 

It is a pleasure to learn that certain individuals make it their concern to Censor my Posts and not read them. The fact effort is made to achieve this, strongly  suggests there is some underlying emotional triggered issues not able to be resolved.  

It is also Hilarious to learn of a certain individual, who has added as a very recent  content to their Posts, the referencing ‘Amygdala’ and a Value for a RIAA. Is not having read Posts from the individual having brought these Subjects to the forefront of a discussion, suggesting Telepathy is now able to be exercised.

The idea of having Telepathy as an extension of the usual senses, is a little bit Fantastical. I would use Fantastical, another might say Delusional.

There are many times on the Gon, that my finger tips radiate a smile on each Keyboard contact. There are Posts made / to be made that are to make the involvement a highly amusing place to be, when interacting on the Gon', especially the Analog Section. 

Such effort in place for the avoidance / pretending to avoid 🤣 my Posts, do seem to be limited to the forum member, that are as a Keyboard Cruncher, making themselves known in a very small area of activity.

It does seem as a forum member, this type of individual has found a place where being Obsessed with their neediness to be seen as an Authority and being Significant has a place that a tolerance is shown for it. 

I also express a Tolerance to it, otherwise, I might express a different reaction to the ugliness of Posts that can delivered with such sprite or venom.

Let the Jury decide on how ugly and venomous a Post can be.

For those that are looking in and not too involved with their contributing. There are certain individuals within a Forum, that are present with a predatory pursuit , they are regularly, maybe even always, contributing to steer.

Again let the Jury decide on the agenda of the individual.

Within certain Threads on Audiogon, certain types of agenda where self interest is the fundamental, is attached like a Humongous Carbunckle. It becomes the Cornerstone of the Subject under discussion. Possibly my suspecting such Self Interest is once more prevailing , is the basis of this Post. Is not there recent announcement's of new electronics merchandise coming to fruition ??, especially centred around, previous Phon' Models being superseded with new models. 

I don't doubt anybody's capabilities who make claim, to be able to produce  electronic devices, maybe some above average, to be used for Audio Purposes. As I am not familiar with much work undertaken, it would be silly to suggest a Audio Product does not satisfy, as a result of not having received a Demo’ and in front of listening experience.

I also don't believe that the Math is King as some do, there is plenty known to strongly suggest the Math is one Variable in the overall.

The Math for the Electronics only becomes Sound as it leaves a Speakers Cross Over and Drives a Speaker to move Air.

Sound is the transfer of an energy to make air move.

Sound is the end goal, and assessing sound is a great way to decide where one is content with the experience being had.

All that comes before sound is management of electricity through a range of devices. 

When voicing of a device is undertaken, the Math can be tweaked endlessly to create a perception the end sound is a betterment.

When voicing a device that is already proven adequately in the Math Department, the end sound is the area of interest, the Math concern becomes a lesser interest.

End Sound is what matters, End Sound is the area that almost all with an interest in Audio Equipment express as an Interest.

All Electronic Devices assembled to produce a Audio System will produce sound, as the end result and that in general is plenty enough for most.

A smaller selection of users of Audio Systems seek out a refinement of the end sound being produced. Usually making decisions on very very personal preference's for their attraction to a particular sound.

I make references to my own preferences in Threads and on occasion, others who contribute are seen to express their own too.

Also what is interesting is that those who put substantial attention on to the one variable being the Math, are not too forward with their perceptions of sound. It does seem there is a selection of individuals who are seemingly convinced that the Math supersedes the requirement to be influenced by the end sound.

This selection of individuals who are seemingly convinced that the Math supersedes the requirement to be influenced by the end sound, may have something, but I am where I am in my own Journey, and as I don’t do the Math, it is an area I leave to other’s better than myself at such practices. As in all academic activity, there are expanses of knowledge and learning capability that differentiates individuals. One would be considered conceited if there self assessment of their capability was unusually elevated.

 For myself to date, I remain totally trusting of individuals I have selected for their adeptness and skillset in such an area where Math is required.   

As an individual who has experienced the end sound from a reasonable amount of Systems, which has incurred a broad range of Costs to create. As well as having heard selected devices added to a few systems that have been quite impressionable.

I have confidence and little concerns about my assessment of an end sound being produced. As an assessment offered from myself, is solely based on my unique preference for what an end sound can offer, along with a description of the impression having been made.

In relation to all Demo's had of the Paradise, it has been on a £200Kish System.

The Demo's were carried out in comparison to a range of Phon's present on the days I was in attendance of which the upper price range exceeds £10K.  

I have never heard this as a sole listener, and always heard it as an attendee to a group get together.

The following is something the individuals with a Self Interest might not want the broader forum membership to be introduced to:

I have heard this Phon' debated by Directors of Audio Production Companies, Individuals who have commission designed Phon's for Audio Businesses, Proprietors of Audio Retail Business, where Phon's are handled up to multi £0000's and I can also add, a UK Known Audio Journalist with over 30 Years as a Journalist/Editor.

Across the entirety of the attendees and cross talk, it would seem most will be somewhere in an agreement, that for the cost to produce this Phon', and the level of performance that can be eked from it between Basic Build and Bespoke Build, to have this as an item of interest would be very wise and prudent with ones finances.

As an assessment made with confidence, based on experiences had, an individual might just find their end game Phon', that presents in a way they are totally satisfied with  for very very sensible monies. It costs $00.00 and no pressure applied from the self interested types, to take the time to see how a Paradise Phon' can be produced for themselves.

For myself, I have my interest on another SS Phon' produced not too long ago and one that is continuously gaining a following across the Globe.

A Statement follows, that was made earlier in this Thread reflects my own activities around Audio and one that I am total agreement with.   

"Unfortunately I no longer have that decent sized group of audio friends nearby.  That was important since in San Diego I had opportunities to hear many different audio systems in a variety of home settings.  Just like live unamplified music, and the almost embarrassing number of components I've gone through, hearing a multitude of different systems is an education for our ears. "

I tip my hat to the foot work done.

Locked away solely in a room, and believing one has all the credentials to be a Armchair Audio Critic - Blah Blah Blah. 

To those using Telepathy - Happy Fantastical Reading 🤣🤣🤣

 

@rauliruegas Then, Why does my Atlas sound better in current mode? It also has more gain and a better signal to noise ratio.

Dear @mijostyn  : " It is not the inconsistency of current mode or voltage mode. It is the inconsistency of cartridges. "

NO, it's the inconsistence of your current design phono stage where the manufacturer works more for specs than almost everything in his designs.

 

As the @dover  current design phono stages my experiences with the Classé Audio first true high end current design/Natural Impedance Loading where exactly the same working perfect to over 40ohm cartridges.

Additionala gentleman with my 12 years ago phono stage voltage design and against the BMC ( that I know does not works for specs only.) he prefers that voltage design with the same cartridges and LP recordings.

 

I just had the Swiss made CH current/voltage design with almost the same Lyra you own and the voltage unit I own outperformed and I know that the CH is way better design that your unit. Maybe your experiences about are alittle tolimited using that current design unit and perhaps you never had the opportunity to listen a state of the art voltage phono state design.

So, you and me have different first hand experiences about and that's all. Cartridges are not the culprit,at least not the MC Diamond that you can besure will performs very well in the CH.

 

R.

Dear @dover : You are rigth, that RIAA spec is a ridiculous one but  thatonly says the " stupid "level/audio knowledge that has whom posted. I never read his posts, useless.

Btw, this is coming from the manufacturer site:

 

" Ideal for professional use in bars and clubs and for at-home DJs and musicians who know what an RIAA curve should sound like, "

Who know what an RIAA should sound like: Really?. Same stupidity .

Yes, we have to learn about.

R.

@rauliruegas  It is not the inconsistency of current mode or voltage mode. It is the inconsistency of cartridges. In my experience the cartridges that work best in current mode have an impedance less than 5 ohms. It is generally said 10 ohms, but I think this is overly optimistic. I would not use transimpedance mode with any cartridge with an impedance higher than 3 ohms. Then the performance is definitive. This represents a very small selection of cartridges, the point being that if a phono stage can not do both formats it should not be considered a viable option. 

I looked for the Paradise on line. Found a thread that included many favorable opinions of 3- and 4-box versions. Seems to be a mix of SS and tube gain devices. Since it’s got tubes for gain, I doubt it operates based on current or transconductance, unless the latter term is used to describe voltage mode. Because tubes lose transconductance as they age which would screw up RIAA. But still, it is much admired. Reminds me of the Herron phono that has ardent supporters in this side of the pond.

@dover As you are aware and others are within the Gon's Analog Section.

I have left on the Sub's Bench, equipment that plenty would really like to own, even aspire to own, as a result of the 'Personal Experiences' had through 'Demonstration' of alternatives options on tools to function as a equivalent role.

I am not forming an 'Opinion' I am making known how a 'Personal Experience' as a result of a 'Demonstration' made an impression.

I totally agree that my assessment made known is merely another 'Opinion' in the mix, and it is relevant to where my interest is at present.

The idea that certain experiences are indelible, keeps them at the forefront of sharing experiences.

Your last comments made are I assume based on your want to have a say other than an assessment of a direct experience through demonstration.

I am pleased to inform you, that you are to get the Hat Today to wear the following in a very Public Place:

 "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

    

@pindac 

RIAA that follows:  +0.3db c 20hz and 17khz

This might have been state of the art back in the early 1960's - but not even close today. There are tube phonos today more accurate than that.

You were listening to a RIAA tone control designed for the DIY/DJ market.

Bit like your much vaunted tonearm you keep banging on about which is just a modified Audio Technica AT1010 - nothing state of the art there. Its just a good 1970's tonearm - with upgraded bearings etc but still has major inherent design flaws compared to todays arms and is far from state the art around materials, energy control etc.

 

 

In another Forum the renowned EE Producer was asked about his setting for the RIAA, as there is talk in Build Threads about the Original Design, having a Bespoke RIAA advised by the Creator of the Paradise.

I fell confident in saying I have been demo'd Paradise Phon's, especially the Four Box Design, with the RIAA that follows:

+0.3db c 20hz and 17khz

I don't know or didn't know what a "transconductance" phono stage is, but I do know that the word "transconductance" has a specific definition, in that it is a measure of how voltage output changes with respect to current input, usually measured in A/V, and since that is the inverse of an ohm, the units are "mhos".  For triodes, typically expressed in micromhos. Anyway, Dover, thanks for your response to my question.  If you are correct, then that seems a bit of an odd way to do RIAA, since the RIAA curve is defined based on voltage changes, owing to the fact that a magnetic phono cartridge of any category, increases its output voltage according to stylus velocity, which increases with frequency. So an RIAA filter operates based on db as a measure of relative signal voltage amplitude.  But since db starts life as a measure of Power, I guess it can also be a measure of current. I dunno.

@lewm

It would appear that Pindac is a devotee of the "new" sciences. If the Paradise identifies as a trans it is all encompassing.

The Paradise is a DIY phono that has a RIAA curve that has been jacked up in the bass ( "a slight enhancement in the lower frequency ranges" according to their website ). From what I can see it has a fixed 1600ohm MC input and you use loading resistors to adjust the load that the cartridge sees.

Clearly there appears to be some confusion in this thread about transconcuctance and transimpedance.

Transconductance converts voltage ( ex MC ) to current.

Transimpedance converts current ( ex MC ) to voltage.

So I assume ( I’m not a technical guru here ) that

For a transconductance phono they converting the MC voltage to current, followed by a current amplication stage to amplify the signal, and then I would assume coverting the amplified current back to voltage, since most domestic audio components assume a voltage gain device precedes them.

For a transimpedance phono, I would assume they convert the MC current to voltage at the input stage, and then amplify the signal using a voltage amplification stage.

Unfortunately many audio reviewers describe transimpedance phono stages as current gain phonos, which is not strictly accurate. Most are what I assume would be a combination of current input and voltage gain stages.

Of the transimpedance type personally I have listened to at length ( for some years ) to the Nibiru, BMC, Van den Hul Grail SE and a custom transimpedance head amp unit built by Reno Andreoli. The units built by Reto are so good I bought two of them.

The Van den Hul Grail SE and Reto’s custom units are in a different league to the others.

In terms of cartridge compatibility Reno’s cartridges are 40ohms and my units have truckloads of gain for all of my MC cartridges which range from 3-40 ohms. They will amplify any MC from 0.1mv up.

The Van den Hul Grail SE I have set up with both low impedance ( Koetsu/Kuzma ) and medium impedance ( Van den Hul Grand Cru ) - plenty of gain for both. Actually the gain range with the Van den Hul phono is massive and is dialled in to the cartridge using internal selectable settings.

From the owner of both the BMC and Nibiru he has found the matching with cartridges is quite sensitive and can produce different results between the 2 phonos.

 

 

 

 

"Transconductance" = voltage mode amplification, the way you are using the term?

@lewm The Transconductance Phon' , I am referring to is the Paradise.

I have heard this in various build guises, from an individual's DIY attempt.

DIY Built with a renowned UK EE who builds these as the mentor and also the Bespoke Four Box Version produced by the renowned UK EE.

I have never heard this as a sole listener, and always heard it as an attendee to a group get together, where the Resident System is costing approx' £200K.

I have heard this Phon' debated by Directors of Audio Production Companies, Individuals who have commission designed Phon's for Audio Businesses, as well as a Proprietors of Audio Retail Business, where Phon's are handled up to multi £0000's.

Across the entirety of the attendees most will agree, for the cost to produce this Phon', and the level of performance that can be eked from it between Basic Build and Bespoke Build.

Ownership of one is a no brainer, as as £10K - £20K more will be required to get close to a version of a presentation that competes.

My Tonearm Designers own Design SS Phon', only made available to the Broader Audio Community about a year ago has been compared to the above Phon'.

Interesting outcomes have followed, as a few owners of the above Phon' have superseded this with the new available Phon'.

Even more interesting one customer has superseded their very expensive commercial Phon', with this new available Phon'. 

I am very familiar with my Tonearm Designers Phon' and it is the one that I believe will be the SS Phon' that I will have around me for when I stop using Valves.          

probably just another reason to recommend: This is What it Sounds Like by Susan Rogers and Ogi Ogas, ii found it of some value…

 

Dear @dogberry  :Everything what I posted in this thread is not " one man best " and let me explain about.

Historically when I post about electronics or cartridges that someone else brought to my place to listen his or their audio items normally the listening sessions are for the guests ( 2-3 of them , very rare that came only one ) and what this means?:

I never gave/give to them my opinion on what I'm experimenting with those " new " items in my system. Conclusions do not come from mebut from them where sometimes coicide with my take and in other times not exactly as that.Aniway at the end of the sessions always discuss about and if necesary I repeat the listen experience where are to many doubts.

My opinion NEVER is one man opinion ( at least in the late times. ) and I want to let

clear.

 

In the other side and a bout current vs voltage mode @lewm  posted: " Nor would Raul... "

certainly I can't do it because I don't know each phono stage circuit boards design but as general voltage design is the way to go and I don't want to repeat what other very high knowledge technical gentlemans already posted in 2-3 other threads. but the inconsistency of current drive wasposted here by mijos when he posted that the Lyra works really good and the MC Diamond runs better in voltage mode and that's only an example. Now, the CH is toptop phono stage design and wasnot me but other two gentlemans whom said what I posted that I agree with.

 

R.