MC-MM-MI CARTRIDGES . DO YOU KNOW WHICH HAS BETTER QUALITY PERFORMANCE? REALLY?

Dear @tomic601 : It’s weird that you mentioned the Audioquest HO AQ 404 because as you can read in my Agon virtual system that’s one of the HOMC cartridges that I own and for a good reason. Good.

Btw, Audioquest had the same model but LOMC design too.

 

R.

@mke246 It seems none of the cartridge manufacturers think 78s are worth the effort. I use an Ortofon 2M series for 78s. It has a huge bonded spherical stylus. To describe the 78s I have a scratchy would be an understatement. I would love to know what a new unused 78 sounded like. I do have digital examples of Caruso singing that were taken from 78s and cleaned up with DSP. He sounds like he is in a phone booth holding his nose singing into a plastic bag, but you do get the idea.

Some recent examples from my channel. Both made with the much-maligned Strain Gauge. With 78s, it’s really mostly about the engineer. The climax in the last minute of that Armstrong record sounded brutally harsh with the Shure and perfect with the SG. All the past engineers have rolled it off hard to avoid distortion. Most engineers favor truncated elliptical stylii, and that's what I use, too. Sadly there aren’t many good 78 engineers, so a few of us audiophile collectors have taken it upon oursleves to do it. The work never ends!

 

@tomic601  : Audioquest cartridges weremade by Scan-Tech same builder ( OEM ) of all Lyra cartridges. 

So it's not at random that AQ came with very high quality performance levels.

R.

In my experience I would rank LOMC 1st, then HOMC, followed by MI, and then MM. I've had Ortofons (MM and MC), Grados, B&O, Hana, Grace, Shure, Pickering, ADC, Sonus, and even AKG. My intro to LOMC was an Ortofon MC-20 whose peaky high end was a great match for my soft Double Advents. I loved all 3 B&Os, I always admired the overall sound and presentation of Grados (when compatible and didn't hum). The tracking abilities of the Shure were offset by its ho-hum dynamics. ADC and Sonus were very high compliance and sounded very smooth, but often failed when the cantilever suspension collapsed. The Pickering XSV-3000 was a sleeper, detailed and romantic, would track anything. The AKGs never had much market share, but I would liken them to the Ortofon 2M. Grace F9 never did much for me, neither did the lower end A-T. The higher end A-T (AKA Signet) were excellent, but still lacked the explosive dynamics and transparency of MC. Currently,  I am very happy with a Hana MH running into my modified Holman Apt 1. It is quieter than the LOMC, with great dynamics and transparency, and in my VPI JMW 10.5 3D Printed arm, tracks as well as I have any need for, and I save the not insubstantial cost and hassle of another preamp and cable. So while I have no doubt a higher end LOMC with suitable preamp and cabling may yield an incremental improvement, the 5X to 10X cost differential isn't justifiable for me.

@rauliruegas 

I had previously owned a Clearaudio Concept turntable with a Clearaudio Concept mm cart.  I was then offered the opportunity to upgrade to the brand's moving coil and as my Musical Surroundings Phono stage had appropriate settings paid for the upgrade.  I couldn’t do A/B comparisons but I regretted the change; I had gained a little low level detail at the expense of a dryness.  Eventually became so unhappy that I sold it off .  
  Eventually I acquired a Technics Direct Drive-I had listed after these in my youth-and this time spent a fair amount of time auditioning perhaps six cartridges, including a few moving coils.  The results were all over the place- some would emphasize different aspects of music that others didn’t quite prioritize-so I went for a relatively inexpensive mm that pleased me since vinyl is a secondary play back media for me.

  I only offer my observations as my personal observations, not a dogma, and every one is entitled to their opinions .  In general they all reproduced music at a high level, and then it becomes a question of what each listener prioritizes 

@rauliruegas I mentioned the 404 because i sold probably 50 of them in the Eighties,,,, i started in a Grado centric shop in 1978.. As you may also recall the 80’s shop displayed and sold the ADS 2030 you mentioned. Fun. 

I would submit for @lewm that one mechanism for lower groove noise is tanking in the phono stage… bit surprised  @atmasphere Ralph has yet to weigh in.

Which in my mind leads into thinking about the essential 4 elements of a phono front end: TT, Arm including that VERY sensitive wiring, Cartridge, and very critical the how and how much gain… I suspect some just don’t much like those FET needed for many LOMC… Aint nothing free…transformers, FET, Tubes…. all have + / -

Raul and the civil are welcome in Seattle or Carlsbad… there is always much to be gained in visiting / listening w others….

And i agree, Kid next door got a 4 year full ride on her talents… i’ve a few high speed reference tapes of her shredding the best Royer ribbon…. a steady diet of real music never hurts….

Somebody s mentioned Signet and Grace, i have both an TK-9ea and an F-9 w Soundsmith Ruby OCL. Both are excellent… especially as the allow me to get around the FET front ends of both the Herron and ARC Ref phono front ends….…..but i wouldn’t trade the relatively LOMC Kuzma, Koetsu or the Dynavector for them…

Enjoy the music….

An act of clarification; TT includes effective isolation… HRS grade or better…

The impression made from a Cartridge, as being nudged into the discussion by tomic601, is fundamentally dependant on the Mechanical Interfaces that are present.

A non- True Axis of the rotation of the Platter Baring Spindle and noise/energy transfer from the Platter Spindle Bearing Function are as the most simplistic description, a detriment to the optimal function of the Cart' in use.

The accuracy of the Speed of the rotations are at some degree of variation, quite able to be detected and ultimately effect the impression being made of the sound being produced perception of quality.

The Tonearm is very capable of impacting on the Cart' and can very easily be a detriment to the optimised function of the Cart'.

The selected Mechanical Interface for the Tonearm to Platter and Geometry used are both capable of being  a detriment to optimised function of the Cart'.

The Kinetic Energy Transfer from the Ambient Environment, into the Support Structure and Turntable > Styli / Tonearm > Styli are a detriment to the optimised function of the Cart'.

Any of the above detrimental impacts are present to a varying degree across all systems in use.

The energy sent from the Styli, to be converted to a electrical signal, to be sent on for Amplification, is not ever going to be the purest energy from the groove modulation only, the electrical signal produced will have been impacted on from other energies being transferred to the Styli when interfaced in the groove. If one thinks this is not occurring in their Vinyl Replay Set Up, there is a little bit of the fantastical at play in their thoughts.

'All things being equal', across a broad Spectrum of Users, is an impossibility.

Add to this the LOMC Cart' being reported on.

How many Cart's are being assessed on the experience had when they were at their condition, that could be suggested they were at their optimal.

A Brand New Cart' is well known to need a 100+hours to become balanced in the overall presentation.

When does the Cart' start to lose its designed in optimisation, only when the Styli shows wear? When the Tension Wire loosens and has lost the ideal interface with the Armature and Damper?

As for all Cart's, at what point of usage does their designed in optimised performance become one that is compromised through usage/ wear and tear/ exposure to the environment. 

Dust has been witnessed built up on the critical interfaces within a Cart' where there is a need to have a freedom of movement. Witnessed dust, has clearly been a detriment to the movement and will have been a substance that has been causing a resistance to the freedom of movement. 

As a result of differences of a condition within a Cart's environmental effects on the Cart' not all being equal over a period of time. Once more, 'All things being equal' is an impossibility to be in place.

Each report is a unique and bespoke experience, that can only be had by being at the place where the sound is being produced.

I have no problem with accepting anybody's reports on the experience they have had, the impression made on them and influence of the impression, which motivated their end choice.

A Cart' from the design MM/MI/IM/MF/LOMC/HOMC/Ceramic, where one has proved to be a most preferred Cart' at what ever the cost, is totally acceptable.

Due to all the variations that can be present and impact detrimentally on a Cart' being used, it is not possible for myself to believe there is a report that is one to be ubiquitous, all reports are unique.

Depending on the environment the Cart' is used in, the user report can be quite flawed in its content about the Cart's quality at producing energy to be transferred to produce sound.            

Old Linn Basik/Akito going from MMs to current Ortofon Quintet Blue MC...sort of amazing sounding...tweaked by nearby Goodman's...el cheapo...into an old Caimbrige phono pre with a bespoke Peter Madnick Pangea power supply. Sounds superb.

I've been inspired to read about Induced Magnet and Variable Reluctance cartridges as variations on the Moving Iron concept as a result of this thread. It always seemed a bit odd to classify a Decca as being the same thing as a Grado or a Soundsmith or Nagaoka, and now I have alternative names available! Decca used neither, I think, preferring to call it a tip-sensing design.

@mke246 The Armstrong sounds great. None of my 78's sound that good. It sounds pretty much like the Caruso I have, all midrange. Are you using a pop and click filter?

@dogberry Good for you. The Decca is a purely British view of the situation. Nice idea until you try to use one. It did not survive in the market for rather obvious reasons once you use one. Some people swear by them. Human's are strange creatures. 

@tomic601 There is a strong argument for MI cartridges outperforming MC cartridges. I wound up using both and my reference is a MC cartridge. The Soundsmith Hyperion MR has the most advanced stylus shape I have ever seen. 

@pindac So, what's new?

@pindac Good Lord man…possibly the board room white paper on why the CD was invented… You left off ( possibly due to brevity ? ) the off center record… of course Nakamichi fixed that…. Not everyone is pitch sensitive… love ya man

 

and yet… The line at my local RSD. ( Lou’s in Encinitas ) exceeded 5 hours at about noon… Certainly some audiophiles in the line…but… lot’s of music lovers craving physical media…. fun

 

Don't really need a FET or a SUT to amplify the voltage of LOMC. A well designed BJT  with parallelism and premium parts does it better and just as quietly.

Pindac lists all the things to worry about - good to keep them in mind in a thread like this one.

Bipolar transistor for balanced circuit; FET for single-ended circuit.  Either used in a cascode topology with a tube "on top", gives very high gain with very low noise.

"Strange creature"? That's me, for sure.

I have been exposed over many years to how a Cart' can be perceived in use, when exposed to the conditions being referred to. Unwanted conditions that can be avoidable or much much improved.

Many years past, on a heavily modified Idler Drive TT, a friend introduced a cheap MM to a SME 3009 Tonearm and had visitors assess the Pairing. The intention was to revisit over time, allowing for the Cart' to settle. The Tonearm was to undergo methods to improve its condition, i.e, Servicing and then adding upgrades, from mechanical through to Signal Wire. All revisits as the TA works progressed were assessed using the same MM Cart'. There was a point in time that the Cart' was clearly better than any recollections had, and the perception was it would be hard to better with any Tonearm Cart' configuration. The mind can play games, as a swap out to a different Tonearm and Cart' both known to be better choices, made the SME 3009 > MM sound very very poor.       

I know through my experiences had, that when a Cart' is used on a set up that has attempts made to address the optimisation of Mechanical Interfaces and methods are in use that are able to support and effectively isolate the Critical Parts from excessive influence of Kinetic Energy Transferral, there is easy to detect changes to the sonic being produced as the outcome, the voicing of the Cart' being used can be very easily distinguished.

My experiences around a Certain Cart' Brand, when Cart's are being used between Certain Purchase Values from the same Brands Range of Models, or as a same range of model Cart' having undergone Modification, such a different Styli as a  replacement only, or a Cart having undergone further modification. The differences from Cart's in use are quite discernable, when such Cart's Families are experienced in use on a system addressing referred to interface issues already mentioned.

I avoided the subject of off set Spindle > Groove centring LP's, as there is always a risk of this condition being present, when known the Vinyl Manufacture Quality Tolerance, where the Spindle Hole Centre is acceptable to be offset to the Groove by approx' 0.2mm.

The following will suggest why a 0.2mm off set can be classed as not too concerning issue, and the last one needing to be addressed, as it does not really contribute detrimentally to the energy being sent by the Styli.

I think on this matter the Industry, if able to maintain the standard for a tolerance of 0,2mm,  has been fair to the Customer. Much Much more expensive items are produced to assist with extracting recorded data from the LP that are being sold with conditions much more detrimental to the quality of the sound to be produced.  

Most record pressing standards have a production tolerances that are producing a centre hole to groove eccentricity tolerance of 0.2 mm maximum.

Apply the 0.2mm to a playback radius of 100 mm (approximately the centre of the LP modulated groove area) equates to a wow of +/- 0.2 % peak ( 0.14 % RMS). As this is for most an people inaudible, it does seem like a fair tolerance for a standard production item. Does a Premium production Item address the off-set to a Zero mm dimension?

Usually, when I refer to eccentricity of a rotation, I refer to the eccentric rotation of the LP, in conjunction, with the eccentric rotation of the Platter Spindle Bearing being the main concern.

Where the combined LP/Spindle Off Set eccentricity does become a little more interesting, is when there are individuals reporting that eccentricity is identified up to 5mm as the guestimated off set. Such reports about the off set being more than 0.2mm are quite incorrect, when coming from reports that are claiming noticeable movement of the Headshell that far exceeds 0,2mm.

Using the Headshell as the indicator of the LP's off set dimension, is only showing the effect of the force being applied to the Headshell as it passes the groove location of where there is maximum force being exerted, which is then incorrectly described as the full force being generated by the groove off set.

There are a Huge amount of variables as to why a reported off set from a visual observation can be seen to be approaching up to 5mm. As a layman, I would suggest the LP's 0.2mm off set is a very small influence on what is being detected and there are other influences contributing in a much larger measure. 

How many individuals who are willing to report on a Cart's qualities are using a Cart' on a Tonearm that has a noticeable deflection to the Headshell, at a particular area on the LP's surface, that can be seen to be guestimated between 2-5mm as the off set deflection. Does different Cart's on the exact same set up with the LP placed at the exact same orientation on the platter produce identical off set deflection seen on the Headshell?

If this type of deflection was made known when one is supplying their report on the impression a Cart' has made, how much would another attach themselves to the report declaring it to be creditable. 

Once more, where is the 'all things being equal', all thing are uniquely bespoke to each individuals experiences had at the replay environment.    

@lewm   Cascode forever!

The ideal phono preamp typology should be a separate thread…imo… My point remains it is impossible to evaluate a cartridge by listening without some form og gain, EQ or both…. 

 

@tomic601: And in fact, the cartridge/tonearm/turntable/RIAA phono amp may be considered a single multi-piece component, the performance of each evaluated only in relation to the others. The same is true of the loudspeaker/amplifier interaction, and the loudspeaker/listening room as well.

Addendum: As others have noted above, the unique sound of the London/Decca pickups is not a consequence of them being moving iron designs, but rather of their lack of having a cantilever (Decca referred to their design as "Direct-Sensing"). In J.Gordon Holt’s review of the Decca Blue in the Autumn/Winter (3) 1973 issue of Stereophile Magazine (where I learned of the Decca cartridge), he named that "cantilever haze". He also referred to the "attack" I cited as "transient snap".

Also noted above is the ability of the cartridge to reproduce the "texture" of the sound produced by instruments. The sound of a guitar pick sliding down a string is visceral, as is the sound of the tip of a drumstick hitting a cymbal, producing (in the case of good cymbals) a percussive "click". You can hear the sound of the material the instrument is made of, including the wood texture of an old Martin acoustic guitar, and the steeliness of a Telecaster.

 

Please offer a mechanism to explain why a “good LOMC suppressed groove noise better than the others”, other than that’s your opinion.

 @lewm It’s just an observation that I came to realize after 50 plus years of playing records using different turntables, arms, phone amps and cartridges. There’s no mechanism involved, just personal experience. Could it be wrong? Maybe…Addressing your other comment, “Good” is arbitrary and hard to define but…what ever you think it is…seems best.

@rauliruegas Those ADS’s must sound fantastic in your room! Thanks for sharing! Seeing your cartridge collection I noticed a couple in particular, it takes me back to a time where I put a lot of hours on Stanton 681EEE’s and Empire 2002’s.

Apologies for the late reply, “life” gets in the way sometimes :-)))

@mijostyn  : " and it will not handle high groove velocities near as well as a MI or MC cartridge will. " 

SG has no mistracking problems as a fact exist many MC/MI that can't handle high velocities recorded LP grooves, not the SG. It's brigthness comes from no RIAA and from its dedicated phono stage but that cartridge ( SS models, not Panasonic or Sao Win. ) tracks everything even at inner grooves.

 

R.

Dear @bdp24 : I really don't disagrre with you from your last post but my point of view is a little different due that as we all know each link in the home system chain is overall important but when we are talking of the LP/analogue chain as a " mini-system " the both critical and more important issues other than the LP source and cartridge/tonearm alignment belongs to the cartridge it self and with out doubt the phonolinestage due that the cartridge is the " mini-system " source and the phonolinepreamp is the processor of the source cartridge signal.

Exist importance gradation levels in all the system chain and for me that's my gradation for very good reasons.

 

R.

Dear friends: I can see that all of you are " inclined " for LOMC or MI cartridges and no one posted yet nothing important about MM cartridge motor designs. Well @dgarretson did it when he posted about Precept cartridge.

That fact, at least with the gentlemans that already posted ,  could says many things and for me says that no one of you were exposed/listened to top MM cartridges that outperforms The Voice or the Statement that mijos " die " for or top today/vintage LOMC cartridges.

One gentleman posted that he did not needs to listen MM cartridges and other said that owned the Grace F9 and that's it. Btw, the Grace F9 was in reality as an entry level in the Grace cartridge catalogue but the ones to listen was/is the F14 series that's where a high quality level belongs in Grace manufacturer.

Not even audiophiles as @lewm that posted about Stanton where he is an owner is a top MM vs the really top MM cartridges but at the medium step of that ladder, yes a good cartridge  but no more than that.

I was and am exposed/listen to the true/real top MM quality level performance ladder and that's why I put at the same level that all the other cartridge designs ladder alongits couple top truly to dedicated Pho Stage design that with out it no one can appreciates what I can .

Rigth not I'm listening one of those true top MM cartridge coming from Audio Technica: AT ML180 OCC that can beats any SS MI today cartridges but not only the AT outperforms several cartridge today designs but other MM too as: Audio Technica AT36 with today stylus shape: this is a fantastic performer as is the AT 160 LC OCC or the AT 25 but the Technics EPC 100C MK4 ( stand alone unit. )  or the U205CMK4 are incredible performers. Signet TK 10 ML MK2 or the Precept 440 and 550ML both came from AT Group and named by @dgarretson  or Pioneer 550E. Yes the JVC X-1 MK2 and Excel ES-70EX4 and I can't let out Shure with the Ultra 500 and the ML 140HE.

With out been exposed to one of those MM cartridges along a top first rate dedicated MM phono stage we can't know about MM cartridge performance levels and how it compares against the other cartridge motor designs.

I one of you has the rigth MM phono stage and is lucky enough then will can to find out a couple of those MM cartridges by ebay or directly in Yahoo Japan or other japanese web sited nad you can find out for peanuts when outperforms 10K+ yoday any kind of cartridge motor designs: some of them not all today samples of that level.

 

R.

@rauliruegas Correct, the SG sound's bright because it does not follow the RIAA curve accurately. That has nothing to do with the fact that it can not track well. I sat with Mr Ledermann for 2 hours discussing and listening to the strain gauge and he freely admitted the SG does not track as well as his MI cartridges. The Hyperion will handle twice the velocity the SG will. He relates the hardest part of designing the SG was getting it's tracking up to the level he could sell it in good conscious. He also relates the SG is kinder to shellac masters causing less wear. I'm not sure how this can happen, but this is coming from him, not me. 

@rauliruegas I have talked recently about the Clearaudio Charisma which I have owned. It is a fun cartridge for rock and roll because it is very dynamic and has great bass, it is also dark, tilted towards the bass. The Voice is a better tracker and is dead neutral. I set up a few inexpensive ATs for friends and I thought they sounded great for the price, but the build quality was questionable. One had a positive rake angle of 76 degrees, comically way off. It was returned for replacement.  The Goldring 1042 is the best current MM cartridge I have recently heard, but not in my system and I have not been able to examine one under the microscope. I am not going to go out and purchase a pile of MM cartridges on a lark. My own experience suggests to me that the more expensive cartridges have better overall build quality which should not surprise anyone. In short, I have heard MI cartridges that can compete with the best LOMC cartridges. I have yet to hear a MM cartridge that can compete with the best LOMC cartridges. People will talk lovingly of old MM cartridges as if they were better than strawberry rhubarb pie. I have not had that experience so I can not comment. Back when I had those cartridges, Stantons, Empires, ADC's, Shures, Pickerings and B+O's, my system was not near what it is today. I do find it interesting that my favorite cartridge was the B+O. Go figure. 

Next I am going to find out just how good or bad these new R T R prerecorded tapes are. I was just given a Nagra IV-SJ! What a beautiful little thing. It's  outboard power supply is dead. I have a new one coming. Once I am sure everything is working I'll get the 10.5" adapter set and try a tape. If it does not sound as good as people say it does it will still make a handsome display piece. I do not intend on recording anything myself which is a good thing because it only takes these crazy scientific microphones. I would have to buy an outboard microphone pre amp. 

 

MC

AT ML180 OCC that can beats any SS MI today cartridges but not only the AT outperforms several cartridge today designs but other MM too as:

Am I correct in thinking that this is your favourite MM? Would you care to say more about why you like it? Transients, smoothness, lack of high frequency emphasis, etc.

 

 

 

Dear @mijostyn  : I listened at least 4 times the SS SG cartridge and twice with my LP tracks and no mistracking issues, additional here mke246 use it against a great cartridge tracking as is the Shure he uses and he posted the SG is better in that specific regards.

 

R.

@mijostyn 

 The Armstrong sounds great. None of my 78's sound that good. It sounds pretty much like the Caruso I have, all midrange. Are you using a pop and click filter?

I run my system through a CEDAR Cambridge computer and into the digital input of Genelec monitors, so I can use any type of declicking and signal processing I want, from hardly anything to extremely aggressive. 78 clicks are much more difficult than vinyl clicks, so it's usually a moderate level of removal to avoid hitting the loud brass notes and then some level of manual removal on my part when I clean something up for public consumption. Even near-mint 78s often have dozens of clicks that require manual removal.

Regarding tracking of the SG, my only real reference is other 78 cartridges, which I don't think put up much of a fight compared to high-end MCs and MIs. I haven't noticed any obvious defects regarding velocity, either. As I've said, it's often the high-end moving magnet that has the problems that the SG doesn't. 

I use both cartridges with Dynavector DV505 tonearms, which help a lot with the movement in the vertical plane that 78s often have. The massive main arm prevents unwanted movement in the horizontal plane. Tracking has been generally great with both cartridges.

Someday I'd like to get and compare a few higher-end MC or MI 78 cartridges that can track at at least 4+ grams, especially something where you could realistically own and maintain numerous without breaking the bank too badly.

Dear @mijostyn : " The Goldring 1042 is the best current MM cartridge I have recently heard, "

That’s a toy compared against any of the ones I listed here and I let you know only to examples of what I’m talking about:

 

the AT ML180OCC came with gold plated boron cantilever that not even today any cartridge manufacturer can find out and the Technics with boron cantilever too has a FR that goes from 5hz to 120khz that not even your best today LOMC can’t even it and yes both flat channels measured response. The Voice? what’s that.

You need to learn about but more important is that you need to listen it in your home system and when you finally could do it you will know of what quality performance levels I’m talking about. A way different league of what you are today accustom to.

 

R.

 

I would suggest a Cart' with a Cantilever produced from a Two Layer Boron Tube, has the ultimate Boron Type Material as a Cantilever.

The Technology required to go to the lengths to create the Boron Tube was quite a feat in itself. The Techies' in the hey day of Cart' R&D had some very interesting moments probing where to go next.

Need a Bake Off,  Boron Tube vs Gold Plated Boron  

@rauliruegas I can only talk about my experience and I do not have access to all those cartridges and never will. 

A boron tube may have a frequency response to 120 kHz, but the best a stylus can do is about 70 kHz. The best my ears can do is 16 kHz at last count about a year ago. 

No cartridge has bettered the Atlas Lambda SL in my system running in transimpedance mode, but the selection is admittedly small. 

@mke246 Great work! You should offer digital files for sale. I already have processed recordings of Armstrong's Hot 5 and Hot 7 bands along with some operas. I can record records to the hard drive and remove some pops, but I do not have the time or patience to do it. My wife keeps me in the shop making cabinets and furniture. My only project are the model 4 subwoofers which after a year are almost finished. 

@mijostyn  : " but the best a stylus can do is about 70 kHz.  "

The Technics it's not the only that goes beyond 100khz: Highphonic D-15 ( LOMC ) or other LOMC as the Denon DL 1000 and several others what's sure is that your Lambda can't and your 16khz is not the issue here. All counts in what we " hear ". Your post is wrong about.

 

Dear @terry9 : " Am I correct in thinking that this is your favourite MM? Would you care to say more about why you like it? "

 

Well, not exactly. Today I have not a favorite cartridge between the top quality performers that share in between almost the same performance characteristics where what change in each one of those top cartridge motor designs mainly is its " color ".

All top LOMC/MI/MM/IM/ELECTROSTATIC and the like has first rate transient response; rhythm, dynamics, brigthness,agresiveness, tone equilibrium top to boo

om," perfet " handled of both FR extremes,no mistracking and superb noise floor. All can give you what is in the recordingadding the lessand losting the less.

I can easily truly enjoy MUSIC with any one of them.

 

Yes, now that I remember I have a favrite:MUSIC home system near " perfect " reproduction.

 

R.

@rauliruegas Perfect for you, but then that is all that counts. 

The difference between 50 kHz and 100 kHz is one octave, an octave not a single one of us can hear, not to mention most loudspeakers can not reproduce. The Koetsu of the day sounded better to my ear than the DL1000. After about a week in the store the DL1000 failed internally. Shortly thereafter Denon released the DL1000A. It also had a ridiculously low output. 

here is one thing I have become absolutely sure about during my years of expressing an interest in Vinyl Replay is that a Cartridge is required to achieve this.

With that Bombshell Dropped, I can now reveal I have collected a Cart' +One, Two, Three over the years.

I can also reveal these Cart's do not share the same design and the bulk of the collection is in storage.

I myself have many spare Headshells, in the same material and very close in weight or the same in their weights.

I have opted for the experiencing the Cart' of choice, and have not shown an interest in Pre Mounting Headshells for easy change outs.

One Cart' at a time is all that is able to be listened  to and I stick with this as the methodology.

@mijostyn  : My mistake because I owned the DL 1000A and was and is way way better than any Koetsu of those times and I know becase I owned almost all Koetsu cartridges of those times.

Even today the DL 1000A is a great performer and one of the favorities of your Lambda designer and you can ask him.

 

That the speaker can not reproduce is not the issue.

 

R.

Dear @terry9 ​@mijostyn  and friends:It's obvious that not only the " color " on each cartridge changes but mainly the " color " where the other named characteristics change too but in different way and in way lower gradation.

 

Now, my audio/sound/MUSIC experiences through over 40+ years gave me a lot of lessons on how a human being " hears and listen and in my case this is what I do when listening at my place and what I learned it happening:

first I like to listen MUSIC/recordings at nigth when the street noise floor is lower as is my building noise floor.

I never wear any kind of clothe not made it by natural fabric as cotton, wool, silk and the like.

I don't listen with the room/system ligth off but not very shiny and I never listen with my eyes closed. Yes, my seat position is near field and when I want to listen something seriously by seat is a wood chair with my head totally free of any near boundary because my normal seat is a confortable couch that absorb the sound from speakers what is not a good idea.

 

" 

There's Life Above 20 Kilohertz!
A Survey of Musical Instrument Spectra to 102.4 KHz

---

James Boyk
California Institute of Technology
Music Lab, 0-51 Caltech, Pasadena, CA 91125, USA
Tel: +626 395-4590, E-mail: boyk@caltech.edu
Home: http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~musiclab

Copyright © 1992, 1997 James Boyk. All rights reserved.

 

Abstract

At least one member of each instrument family (strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion) produces energy to 40 kHz or above, and the spectra of some instruments reach this work's measurement limit of 102.4 kHz. Harmonics of muted trumpet extend to 80 kHz; violin and oboe, to above 40 kHz; and a cymbal crash was still strong at 100 kHz. In these particular examples, the proportion of energy above 20 kHz is, for the muted trumpet, 2 percent; violin, 0.04 percent; oboe, 0.01 percent; and cymbals, 40 percent. Instruments surveyed are trumpet with Harmon ("wah-wah") and straight mutes; French horn muted, unmuted and bell up; violin sul ponticello and double-stopped; oboe; claves; triangle; a drum rimshot; crash cymbals; piano; jangling keys; and sibilant speech. A discussion of the significance of these results describes others' work on perception of air- and bone-conducted ultrasound; and points out that even if ultrasound be taken as having no effect on perception of live sound, yet its presence may still pose a problem to the audio equipment designer and recording engineer. Given the existence of musical-instrument energy above 20 kilohertz, it is natural to ask whether the energy matters to human perception or music recording. The common view is that energy above 20 kHz does not matter, but AES preprint 3207 by Oohashi et al. claims that reproduced sound above 26 kHz "induces activation of alpha-EEG (electroencephalogram) rhythms that persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation, and can affect perception of sound quality." [4]       Oohashi and his colleagues recorded gamelan to a bandwidth of 60 kHz, and played back the recording to listeners through a speaker system with an extra tweeter for the range above 26 kHz. This tweeter was driven by its own amplifier, and the 26 kHz electronic crossover before the amplifier used steep filters. The experimenters found that the listeners' EEGs and their subjective ratings of the sound quality were affected by whether this "ultra-tweeter" was on or off, even though the listeners explicitly denied that the reproduced sound was affected by the ultra-tweeter, and also denied, when presented with the ultrasonics alone, that any sound at all was being played.       From the fact that changes in subjects' EEGs "persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation," Oohashi and his colleagues infer that in audio comparisons, a substantial silent period is required between successive samples to avoid the second evaluation's being corrupted by "hangover" of reaction to the first.       The preprint gives photos of EEG results for only three of sixteen subjects. I hope that more will be published. In a paper published in Science, Lenhardt et al. report that "bone-conducted ultrasonic hearing has been found capable of supporting frequency discrimination and speech detection in normal, older hearing-impaired, and profoundly deaf human subjects." [5] They speculate that the saccule may be involved, this being "an otolithic organ that responds to acceleration and gravity and may be responsible for transduction of sound after destruction of the cochlea," and they further point out that the saccule has neural cross-connections with the cochlea. [6] Even if we assume that air-conducted ultrasound does not affect direct perception of live sound, it might still affect us indirectly through interfering with the recording process. Every recording engineer knows that speech sibilants (Figure 10), jangling key rings (Figure 15), and muted trumpets (Figures 1 to 3) can expose problems in recording equipment. If the problems come from energy below 20 kHz, then the recording engineer simply needs better equipment. But if the problems prove to come from the energy beyond 20 kHz, then what's needed is either filtering, which is difficult to carry out without sonically harmful side effects; or wider bandwidth in the entire recording chain, including the storage medium; or a combination of the two.       On the other hand, if the assumption of the previous paragraph be wrong — if it is determined that sound components beyond 20 kHz do matter to human musical perception and pleasure — then for highest fidelity, the option of filtering would have to be rejected, and recording chains and storage media of wider bandwidth would be needed.  "

 

Now, human being " hears " not only with the ears but with his whole body along all his different senses and all the concious information stocked in his brain Amygdala but down there the majority of the Amygdala information we are not concious but has direct influence in all what our body does or reacts. Even our brain with all its resources and it does not matters that mijos can listen to 16khz the brain and senses synthetize over 50khz even if the speakers can's do it.

We are 24 hours alive and everything counts that's why I don't listen with my eyes closed because when I close my eyes immediatly I " look " different " figures/scenarios/ideas " etc etc.

The sense of vew is way important when we are listen at home as is to choose a time to listen when our nervous system is more or less in equilibrium because if we are under high distress or something to worry our senses are afected directly and the rhythm of what we are listening changes that when we are listening in equilibrium.

 

It's really complex what happens around/surround us and normally we don't take care about. I care on all the listening experience at a live event or in a room/system.

 

As all of you I listen my system to live each time the developing of the MUSIC enjoyment, I'm a MUSIC lover not a hardware lover.

 

R.

Oh no Raul, a new subject to argue over debate.  Should we listen with our eyes closed or open?

;^)

Thanks for the Boyk reference.

I never thought I would be associating something, that could be described as almost Monty Python'esc, in relation to how to separate oneself from the usual, to enforce ones place as being the authority.

As an individual who does not like to suggest too much, without having a experience of such a subject that can offer some value, and one who promotes the idea, to avoid being participant in the following :

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation." 

To align myself, at some time in the future, I will be in my listening room, with Chalk Painted Decor, Wood and Wool Rug Floor Covering, with Soft Furnishings produced from Wool and Organically Grown Plants produced into Fabric.

Where I will be seated in a free space position, whilst seated on my Cottage Industry - Bodger Produced Chair, wearing Clothing that comes from Organically Grown Flax, that is using only Traditional Practices to create the Linen Cloth my Clothing will be produced from. I will compare the wearing of Such Fabric to the experience of Naturist Listening and share thoughts on which is the able to create the most attractive end sound. 

To keep my report on any findings effecting the end sound produced as accurate possible. I will train myself to not Blink, or maybe cheat and use Matchsticks. It will be a worthwhile investigation to learn how the shutting of ones eyes whilst listening, can be extremely detrimental to how the end produced sound is perceived.

Maybe somebody can contribute to assist with my selections that will enable my using an Audio System, that is 100% Produced from Natural Product. It seems vital such a condition is put in place to not be detrimental to the end sound being produced.

Ah forget offering any suggestions, I'm out of here, the whole idea, is seemingly to myself, a waste of my time. 

The Chalk Wall Decor, and Wood/Rug Flooring has proved plenty enough, with CD being quite acceptable if one feels a snooze is on the menu.  

       

I can sit on a wooden bench and listen to music.

Here again I am going to disagree with Raul. Nobody in the store though the Denon sounded better than the Koetsu. Perhaps this was an example of groupthink. The cartridge did not last very long, perhaps more listening would have changed some opinions. 

I suggest @rauliruegas you review oculomotor neuroanatomy and physiology. Our eyes and ears talk to each other, anyone who has experienced vertigo knows this. When the ear gives the brain false spatial information the eyes start bouncing horizontally and the person feels as if the room is spinning. Closing the eyes improves the situation although it does not get rid of it. Visual cues distort the image. Some animals like whales are ruled by their ears. We are ruled by our eyes. Taking the eyes out of the equation by closing them or turning off the lights improves audio image definition. The effect is purely on the image not the amplitude response. I suggest everyone try it. When seriously evaluating a system I always close my eyes. When listening from the listening chair I will always have my eyes closed unless the music is coming from a video. 

Nearfield listening to multiway speakers is not a good way to evaluate a system as you begin to hear the individual drivers. You can do this with headphones and full range drivers but not multiway speakers. By nearfield I mean closer than 3 feet.

Somehow, two different discussions got twisted together, the questions of whether reproduced frequencies above the range of your or my hearing acuity have any effect on your or my perception of music vs whether one should listen with eyes open or closed.  IMO, both questions are more interesting than the question of what type of cartridge Joe Blow of Audiogon Forums likes best. And yet this thread on that subject will go on forever; Raul is a genius at posing open-ended questions that provoke opinions for the sake of having an opinion.

On the first new question, Raul and the published scientific papers he quotes are undeniably correct.  The fact that our sense of SQ is affected by reproduction of frequencies we cannot "hear" by the criterion of audiometry has been shown many times.  This could be due in part to bone conduction or whatever, but it's a fact that I not only accept but am grateful for, since I am old and subject to age-related hf hearing loss. In his white paper on designing preamplifiers, Allen Wright even claimed that he or his listeners could detect a difference in treble response between a circuit that went out to 1 MHz vs a different version that went out to 750KHz, when he experimented with two different configurations of the same preamplifier driving the same downstream system. (That seems a little extreme, even to me.)

On the second new question, I am not sure what is the issue.  No one seems to be saying that eyes open vs eyes closed makes no difference. For sure, it makes a big difference to me in perception of soundstage and location of instruments and distortions produced by the venue or the PA system in any live venue. I experienced this as recently as the last few days when we attended two different live performances, one in a local jazz club and one in a small concert hall which has very good acoustics. At any live venue, I always listen both ways, eyes open vs eyes closed, just to amuse myself but also to get an idea how what I am seeing and listening to might sound if I could only hear it on a home system. My late audiophile friend had an extensive library of DVDs containing live jazz performances.  He had a huge flat screen TV flanked by high end Martin Logan ESLs and driven by quality amplification.  I spent many hours listening with him while we watched the actual performance on the screen.  What happened was I lost nearly all consciousness of or obsession with purely the sound quality.  I was immersed in the experience as if it was happening in front of me.

The Cartridge Topic, where Alll thing being equal is quite important for the determining where best qualities are to be found, and offered with a convincing description.

Has now been met with even more variables, as Dress Code, Lighting, Observation, Seating Position and Seat Material are all entered as factors by the OP.

@mijostyn has attempted to show he has the option to attempt to match the seating as a Wooden Bench is available to be used. A bench might be overkill if the OP is only familiar with a Chair type of seat.

The there is not only the exact positioning of seat in relation to speaker, there is also the posture adopted whilst seated. Legs stretched out to max length, Legs with Bent Knee, Cross Legged. 

Maybe even foot size matters. 

All things being equal, good luck with such an idea, it is bad enough trying to believe all TT's in use are the exact same in their level adjustment. 

I'm struggling with much of what is on offer, as each are very very unique as reports, and I am left trying to conjecture the info to fill in blanks where info is deficient.

The latest parameter to be used as a means of unadulterated assessment is way out there.

I'll let the wider audience decide how rediculous this is to suggest as a requirement beyond the 1st of April. 

 

It’s just an observation that I came to realize after 50 plus years of playing records using different turntables, arms, phone amps and cartridges. There’s no mechanism involved, just personal experience. Could it be wrong? Maybe…Addressing your other comment, “Good” is arbitrary and hard to define but…what ever you think it is…seems best.

@bsion A lot of phono sections designed for MM cartridges make ticks and pops all on their own due to poor high frequency overload problems. The cartridge has an inductance and that in parallel with the capacitance of the tonearm cable sets up an electrical resonance (a peak like a tone control) that can be up to 20dB, at the upper end of the audio range or just ultrasonic. Keeping the tonearm cable capacitance down pushes this resonance to a higher frequency which is why tonearm cables are usually low capacitance.

There is noise (and sometimes signal, since any stereo cutter has response to well over 40KHz) and boosted in that manner can overload the input of the phono section briefly with a tick or pop as the result.

So you might want to reconsider that idea that the MM cartridges inherently pick up more surface noise- it might simply be you were playing a phono preamp that had this problem; IME this problem is very common. Many solid state MM phono sections in amps and receivers made in the 1970s and 80s had this issue.

@mijostyn  : " seriously evaluating a system I always close my eyes. "

 

Well that's the way you are accustom to, no problem and maybe when you are in the MUSIC Hall you are sleeping all the time with your eyes closed because in any concert hall not only there is ligth but air conditon noise too and several other issue. Again no problem with.

 

" a system as you begin to hear the individual drivers. "

 

Again no problem but you are wrong and not all multidiver speakers and room/system chain performs the same. What's happening with you?

 

R.

Dear @terry9 : I don’t know if you know that James Boyk is a very well regarded pianist too and made it Hall presentations several times with different scores.

 

I own one of his LP recordings where he plays: a Steinway with this program:

Debussy: Reflections in the Water.

Stravinsky: Sonata ( 1924 )

Shoenberg : Sis little Piano Pieces and

Ravel: Sonatina.

 

He has other LP recordings.

 

R.

As a fact I own 3 LPs from Boyk. I can' find out the other two but in one of them he played  one of the Prokofiev Sonatas.

 

R.

Dear @jdougs  : Maybe you already know but with your Umami Redin " reality " you are listening to the over 15K Etsuro Gold where both cartridges shares the same cartridge motor and yes both are manufactured by Excel. The Etsuro is a Luxury Umami,so you are lucky.

 

Btw, if you can try to find out the vintage LOMC  Excel ES-10 that came with around 0.2mvoutput and where the cartridge top plate is totally made of pure saphyre, very good quality performer.

 

R.