MC-MM-MI CARTRIDGES . DO YOU KNOW WHICH HAS BETTER QUALITY PERFORMANCE? REALLY?

In another Forum the renowned EE Producer was asked about his setting for the RIAA, as there is talk in Build Threads about the Original Design, having a Bespoke RIAA advised by the Creator of the Paradise.

I fell confident in saying I have been demo'd Paradise Phon's, especially the Four Box Design, with the RIAA that follows:

+0.3db c 20hz and 17khz

I believe I am at a place in life where the Cart' no longer really matters. 

Historically, I have been through MM, HOMC and LOMC.

I believe I have heard enough Cart' Types to come to a point in time, where I was convinced LOMC was the most desirable option to be maintained in use. Especially when used with Phono Amplification Support, that allows the Cart' design to work at its most attractive as an audible impression.

Today and many years on, I am certain, the ears are lesser in their hearing range, so a alternative and more affordable Cart' type should suffice for my basic needs. I have no interest in pretending my most expensive Cart's Types are making myself hear more frequency range than I can actually hear.

Approx' 8 years passed at a hearing test, I made it known about my investments in audio and my interest in the hearing test. The nurse said after, I was getting a good return on my investments. I take it I was very simply informed my being able to detect the audible frequency range was reasonably accurate?

Now I am getting close to being 60 Years of Age, I see no reason why the Stored MM's, HOMC and Ceramic Cart' that have all at some time very much hit the right note with me, should remain stored. It is time to get them out and attached to some of the Head Shells stored away as well. These models no longer need to be hidden from the main system. 

As for knowing which is better as a performance? I don't see myself taking the time to be analytical, as along as the presentation of any design is able to listened to for extended periods of time without desiring a change to be put in place, then for me this is the win, as it is a win with all assessments of audio equipment I undertake where devices in use are desirable to be maintained. 

It would be off interest if contributors stated an approximate age, as the younger ear as is the younger eye, a little more reliable with being accurate.

   

@lewm Len Gregory has been synonymous with MI Cart's in the UK.

Even though not having owned a Cart' from this producer, I have encountered the design in use many years ago and in use in conjunction with the system and environment the Cart' was being used, there was not enough on offer to get my inquisitiveness going for a further follow up experience.

It was either a MM or HOMC that was the Cart' to be used from the result of investigations undertaken from this period of time.

I know individuals today with substantial monies that can be spent on their audio hobby, but remain loyal to HOMC Cart's as their choice. It is impossible to make an individual like anything more than what they like.

I know there are endless notions why a Ceramic Cart' should not be taken seriously in the world of audio, but I encountered one in use by pure chance, that has a Paratrace Styli fitted. The impression made on myself was profound, I own the Cart' with spare styli. I will state that many may be selling themselves short, by not having a Ceramic Cart experience, to see what is the impression that can be made.

As stated, for myself, I am only interested in what is the devices experienced in use, that are capable of encouraging myself to keep them in use for extended periods and are proven to be devices wanted to be maintained as part of the home system.

There is not a recommendation for a device, that is able to be a guarantee to the above being realised, following an encounter with any types of audio device.

In relation to Cart's and Phono Amplification, I have been demo'd many devices. Which many have been repelled and without any doubt not wanted to be experienced any further.

A much smaller quantity of devices experienced in use are ones I have developed an attraction to and there has been something indelible about the encounter.

A smaller quantity again, are those that have been very attractive, hence, selected to be maintained for long term use in the home system.   

I don't run/cycle like I have as a younger person. I don't have stamina like I had as a younger person. I don't have sight like I had as a younger person. I will take a wild punt, the hearing test if done today, will not be as kind as a description as the one given previously.

I am willing to 'err on the side of caution' and lean more towards a description on assessment of produced sound from particular Cart' types from the younger of the ears being used to gather info to be described on produced sound.

Then there are those who use the math over their ears to determine the sound to be produced, I have no ageism concerns for math being produced, but also no interest in the math only, as the notion the math is the guidance for the choice to be made.        

@lewm I have been active in a few forums and over the years met up with more than 300 audio enthusiasts which are owners of dedicated systems.

To date I have not shared with or met any who are in possession of identical twin systems. Owned systems by any enthusiast will be in general unique as the system evolves in relation to the system owners developing unique preferences.

As stated earlier in a post: " It is impossible to make an individual like anything more than what they like." I'm sure there are many with an interest in producing a Closed - Won as an outcome of a meeting,  who spend plenty of their energy attempting to change another's thoughts on 'what they like'.     

All Audio Enthusiast who put together audio systems, are unique in relation to the end sound they are attempting to create. There is not a ubiquitous approach, apart from Devices capable of generating a Electronic Signal and Electronic Devices to Amplify and produce Sound are the requirements for most who want to experience recorded music. 

I myself, as a contributor, attempts to remain within the objective to share only on  experiences had. I do not deter anybody from increasing their own experiences and gathering extended knowledge, that could be very beneficial to their own interests in this hobby.

I do not see having limited experiences in a very small area of a particular type of Cart' design, as a reason to discredit ones overall experiences. Nobody has extensive experience of being in the Company of all options available. All contributors are deficient in their experiences had in this respect. 

On the subject of knowledge of products available from Past production and Present, there is very easy to access info to assist with research. If one wants to extend their knowledge base about a design intent for a particular product, this info  can be found. Specification for a Particular Product will be quite successfully found. This info type being discovered, does not increase or broaden ones experiences of how a product encountered is capable of making an impression at the time of a demo'.      

A thread such as this, will become a place to share ones own unique preferences, for a Cart' Design. Which will then most likely, and as already seen, extend to individuals expressing where they are different, about where they believe the design is to be found that is most satisfying for their unique preferences.

The Group that is very satisfied with LOMC will most likely not have the same Cart' Model from a Brand as their preferential model, or will not have the same Brand as the preference.

I myself today has in use a LOMC Cart' that has never been designed by any Manufacturer. As a end design it is Bespoke Built and Unique. It has a Ogura Vital Styli > Beryllium Cantilever, WRD from a upper range Model and never used in the Donor Cart' model when in production. This is a Cart' I really would like to be able to make Old Bones with. 

The same as said for the LOMC will be seen to be realised for all Cart' designs referred to in the OP:  MM/MI/IM/MF/HOMC and Ceramic.

I do have experience of Grado Cart's, I have heard a range of Grado's Models in home systems belonging to others and at Commercial events. Where I fall short is not being able to confirm if these were MM or MI, but again, the end result was that not enough impression was left to encourage myself to pursue the use of one to be used in the home system.  The Len Gregory design is the one I can confirm is a MI and possibly a Grado by original design taken to the LG level of presentation ?  These are now very distant from the past recollections.

I hope this Thread becomes very populated with the preferences of others, I am always keen to be introduced to something quite new to my knowledge base.

As to being interested in the comments offered by those being Younger in years

Presbycusis ( Age Related Hearing Loss) has plenty of research carried out and info produced to show the impact on the general population.

In relation to 60 - 69 years of age, research which is very easy to understand shows statistics that from 250Hz to 8000Hz, there are a substantial amount of Males with hearing impediment not able to detect these frequencies, especially with the impediment impacting on typical audible communication.

As the age rises into the 70's and 80's the Men with hearing loss grows in much increased number to the above frequencies.

There is the likelihood some who are to report within this thread, even myself, are reporting with a proportion or the full impact of this type of hearing loss being present.

Hence, in my own case, why the idea of using owned Cart's has an attraction, in place of investing into Cart's that may never be fully experienced across the entirety of the Bandwidth designed for them. 

This still does not Wane me from my intention to invest in having a few more bespoke built Cart's produced, especially a Cacti Cantilever on one such build and a Boron Cantilever with FGS on a Ceramic.

I have yet to experience the Ceramic Cart' as a basic design on my home system.

I have purchased a Ceramic Cart' of the same model that I thoroughly enjoyed experiencing in use, I also purchased spare Styli. The idea of a Boron Cantilever and FGS is as strong now as it was when first put forward as a design for it. A Cadenza Blacks Cantilever may prove to be the donor part. 

When I do eventually get to the place this is to be used, from recollection a small tweak is required to the circuit of an MM Phonostage to get the best from it.

Having Cart's stored is not a unusual practice for myself, I have a collection of Cart's awaiting their day to be put back into service.

I still have a A&R P77 and AT MLX 150 MM to go head to head at some time.

The idea of a Gold Plated Boron Cantilever on a MM, that does get ones pot simmering

A&R P77 are to found on offer today where a Boron Cantilever is used, but this does come with a fair price attached to achieve it.

It might be cheaper to find a spent AT Cart' with a Gold Boron Cantilever and have the Retipped Cantilever put onto the P77.

There is also a Cadenza Black to have a Cactus Cantilever and PC Triple C / EX wire taken directly from the coils, bypassing the Lead Out Pins. This will be the least interrupted signal path I have used on a Cart'. 

Interesting Post from @mglik, Using the typical usage life on a Cart' is suggested to be 1000 hrs.

The Cart' that superseded a $14 per hour Cart's was superseded by a Cart' costing $12 per hour and quite different as the fundamental design.

I don't think many contributing to this thread will have any experience of or come close to being able to describe the impression to be had, using a $12K MI Cart' for creating the signal that is to be presented as produced Sound. 

It is quite interesting to hear of such a Cart' being selected for use, certainly more interesting than the LOMC's that seem to get all of the High Price Tag coverage.  . 

I've myself attended many live performances, Choirs, Choristers, Orchestral, Acoustic, Rock.

Some of the Venues visited have been wonderful to listen to Music, with even the Albert Hall included, which has had extensive work carried out to enhance the Venue for live performance.

A HiFi System can't do it, it can't encapsulate an individual in the expanse of the sound.

The Sound at a Live Venue is usually omnidirectional and expands to envelope the listener.

A Rock Venue not so much, as this is expansive sound but directional.

A Sound produced from a Audio System is directional, it is here where all similarities are lost to a live performance.

I don't disagree with the idea, a particular instrument when heard on a Audio System, can create the perception there is an honesty to the sound being produced, bit the lag between a Instrument Heard in one location, the exposure to endless ambient sound from the local environment, and then listening to a recorded music on the home system, even if achieved in the shortest of timeline, leaves a individual with a corrupted hearing.

I suggest anybody with the notion on board, they are able to have equivalent of a  Live Music Encounter, as a match for a Recorded Music Audio Experience, has a little fantastical attached to their notion and inaccurate assessment.

Under the category of " everything the same" as a methodology for having experienced a broad range of Cart' Types.

All my previous reports are askew, as I have not had the experiences where all ancillaries to support the use of the Cart' are identical.

I am also sure TA used today are selected for their being better for the usage of a particular Cart' Design and Phonostages Types used have evolved in their designs where they have become more desirable to keep maintained in use.

 " everything the same ". Is to prove to be difficult to adhere to, as a means of offering a report. 

 

What I have learnt from this thread is that a MI Cart' can now be acquired for $12K.

Setting the Brand of that Cart's other models aside, what is the price jump from another go to MI Cart' to get to the cost referred to above, $6K, $7K, $8k as there are no in between models?.

In the MC Market the outlays to get to $12K, would easily be progressive in 300 - $500 increments, even all the way up to $15K, as a result of the range of models on offer.

@pryso Your below statements are ones that I identify with and can not be in more agreement, that broadening ones listening in the homes of others with a real enthusiasm and adeptness for thing audio is a substantial foundation for finding ones place in how a Audio System can sound. 

"I had opportunities to hear many different audio systems in a variety of home settings. "

"I've gone through, hearing a multitude of different systems is an education for our ears."

The impression made from a Cartridge, as being nudged into the discussion by tomic601, is fundamentally dependant on the Mechanical Interfaces that are present.

A non- True Axis of the rotation of the Platter Baring Spindle and noise/energy transfer from the Platter Spindle Bearing Function are as the most simplistic description, a detriment to the optimal function of the Cart' in use.

The accuracy of the Speed of the rotations are at some degree of variation, quite able to be detected and ultimately effect the impression being made of the sound being produced perception of quality.

The Tonearm is very capable of impacting on the Cart' and can very easily be a detriment to the optimised function of the Cart'.

The selected Mechanical Interface for the Tonearm to Platter and Geometry used are both capable of being  a detriment to optimised function of the Cart'.

The Kinetic Energy Transfer from the Ambient Environment, into the Support Structure and Turntable > Styli / Tonearm > Styli are a detriment to the optimised function of the Cart'.

Any of the above detrimental impacts are present to a varying degree across all systems in use.

The energy sent from the Styli, to be converted to a electrical signal, to be sent on for Amplification, is not ever going to be the purest energy from the groove modulation only, the electrical signal produced will have been impacted on from other energies being transferred to the Styli when interfaced in the groove. If one thinks this is not occurring in their Vinyl Replay Set Up, there is a little bit of the fantastical at play in their thoughts.

'All things being equal', across a broad Spectrum of Users, is an impossibility.

Add to this the LOMC Cart' being reported on.

How many Cart's are being assessed on the experience had when they were at their condition, that could be suggested they were at their optimal.

A Brand New Cart' is well known to need a 100+hours to become balanced in the overall presentation.

When does the Cart' start to lose its designed in optimisation, only when the Styli shows wear? When the Tension Wire loosens and has lost the ideal interface with the Armature and Damper?

As for all Cart's, at what point of usage does their designed in optimised performance become one that is compromised through usage/ wear and tear/ exposure to the environment. 

Dust has been witnessed built up on the critical interfaces within a Cart' where there is a need to have a freedom of movement. Witnessed dust, has clearly been a detriment to the movement and will have been a substance that has been causing a resistance to the freedom of movement. 

As a result of differences of a condition within a Cart's environmental effects on the Cart' not all being equal over a period of time. Once more, 'All things being equal' is an impossibility to be in place.

Each report is a unique and bespoke experience, that can only be had by being at the place where the sound is being produced.

I have no problem with accepting anybody's reports on the experience they have had, the impression made on them and influence of the impression, which motivated their end choice.

A Cart' from the design MM/MI/IM/MF/LOMC/HOMC/Ceramic, where one has proved to be a most preferred Cart' at what ever the cost, is totally acceptable.

Due to all the variations that can be present and impact detrimentally on a Cart' being used, it is not possible for myself to believe there is a report that is one to be ubiquitous, all reports are unique.

Depending on the environment the Cart' is used in, the user report can be quite flawed in its content about the Cart's quality at producing energy to be transferred to produce sound.            

I have been exposed over many years to how a Cart' can be perceived in use, when exposed to the conditions being referred to. Unwanted conditions that can be avoidable or much much improved.

Many years past, on a heavily modified Idler Drive TT, a friend introduced a cheap MM to a SME 3009 Tonearm and had visitors assess the Pairing. The intention was to revisit over time, allowing for the Cart' to settle. The Tonearm was to undergo methods to improve its condition, i.e, Servicing and then adding upgrades, from mechanical through to Signal Wire. All revisits as the TA works progressed were assessed using the same MM Cart'. There was a point in time that the Cart' was clearly better than any recollections had, and the perception was it would be hard to better with any Tonearm Cart' configuration. The mind can play games, as a swap out to a different Tonearm and Cart' both known to be better choices, made the SME 3009 > MM sound very very poor.       

I know through my experiences had, that when a Cart' is used on a set up that has attempts made to address the optimisation of Mechanical Interfaces and methods are in use that are able to support and effectively isolate the Critical Parts from excessive influence of Kinetic Energy Transferral, there is easy to detect changes to the sonic being produced as the outcome, the voicing of the Cart' being used can be very easily distinguished.

My experiences around a Certain Cart' Brand, when Cart's are being used between Certain Purchase Values from the same Brands Range of Models, or as a same range of model Cart' having undergone Modification, such a different Styli as a  replacement only, or a Cart having undergone further modification. The differences from Cart's in use are quite discernable, when such Cart's Families are experienced in use on a system addressing referred to interface issues already mentioned.

I avoided the subject of off set Spindle > Groove centring LP's, as there is always a risk of this condition being present, when known the Vinyl Manufacture Quality Tolerance, where the Spindle Hole Centre is acceptable to be offset to the Groove by approx' 0.2mm.

The following will suggest why a 0.2mm off set can be classed as not too concerning issue, and the last one needing to be addressed, as it does not really contribute detrimentally to the energy being sent by the Styli.

I think on this matter the Industry, if able to maintain the standard for a tolerance of 0,2mm,  has been fair to the Customer. Much Much more expensive items are produced to assist with extracting recorded data from the LP that are being sold with conditions much more detrimental to the quality of the sound to be produced.  

Most record pressing standards have a production tolerances that are producing a centre hole to groove eccentricity tolerance of 0.2 mm maximum.

Apply the 0.2mm to a playback radius of 100 mm (approximately the centre of the LP modulated groove area) equates to a wow of +/- 0.2 % peak ( 0.14 % RMS). As this is for most an people inaudible, it does seem like a fair tolerance for a standard production item. Does a Premium production Item address the off-set to a Zero mm dimension?

Usually, when I refer to eccentricity of a rotation, I refer to the eccentric rotation of the LP, in conjunction, with the eccentric rotation of the Platter Spindle Bearing being the main concern.

Where the combined LP/Spindle Off Set eccentricity does become a little more interesting, is when there are individuals reporting that eccentricity is identified up to 5mm as the guestimated off set. Such reports about the off set being more than 0.2mm are quite incorrect, when coming from reports that are claiming noticeable movement of the Headshell that far exceeds 0,2mm.

Using the Headshell as the indicator of the LP's off set dimension, is only showing the effect of the force being applied to the Headshell as it passes the groove location of where there is maximum force being exerted, which is then incorrectly described as the full force being generated by the groove off set.

There are a Huge amount of variables as to why a reported off set from a visual observation can be seen to be approaching up to 5mm. As a layman, I would suggest the LP's 0.2mm off set is a very small influence on what is being detected and there are other influences contributing in a much larger measure. 

How many individuals who are willing to report on a Cart's qualities are using a Cart' on a Tonearm that has a noticeable deflection to the Headshell, at a particular area on the LP's surface, that can be seen to be guestimated between 2-5mm as the off set deflection. Does different Cart's on the exact same set up with the LP placed at the exact same orientation on the platter produce identical off set deflection seen on the Headshell?

If this type of deflection was made known when one is supplying their report on the impression a Cart' has made, how much would another attach themselves to the report declaring it to be creditable. 

Once more, where is the 'all things being equal', all thing are uniquely bespoke to each individuals experiences had at the replay environment.    

I would suggest a Cart' with a Cantilever produced from a Two Layer Boron Tube, has the ultimate Boron Type Material as a Cantilever.

The Technology required to go to the lengths to create the Boron Tube was quite a feat in itself. The Techies' in the hey day of Cart' R&D had some very interesting moments probing where to go next.

Need a Bake Off,  Boron Tube vs Gold Plated Boron  

here is one thing I have become absolutely sure about during my years of expressing an interest in Vinyl Replay is that a Cartridge is required to achieve this.

With that Bombshell Dropped, I can now reveal I have collected a Cart' +One, Two, Three over the years.

I can also reveal these Cart's do not share the same design and the bulk of the collection is in storage.

I myself have many spare Headshells, in the same material and very close in weight or the same in their weights.

I have opted for the experiencing the Cart' of choice, and have not shown an interest in Pre Mounting Headshells for easy change outs.

One Cart' at a time is all that is able to be listened  to and I stick with this as the methodology.

I never thought I would be associating something, that could be described as almost Monty Python'esc, in relation to how to separate oneself from the usual, to enforce ones place as being the authority.

As an individual who does not like to suggest too much, without having a experience of such a subject that can offer some value, and one who promotes the idea, to avoid being participant in the following :

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation." 

To align myself, at some time in the future, I will be in my listening room, with Chalk Painted Decor, Wood and Wool Rug Floor Covering, with Soft Furnishings produced from Wool and Organically Grown Plants produced into Fabric.

Where I will be seated in a free space position, whilst seated on my Cottage Industry - Bodger Produced Chair, wearing Clothing that comes from Organically Grown Flax, that is using only Traditional Practices to create the Linen Cloth my Clothing will be produced from. I will compare the wearing of Such Fabric to the experience of Naturist Listening and share thoughts on which is the able to create the most attractive end sound. 

To keep my report on any findings effecting the end sound produced as accurate possible. I will train myself to not Blink, or maybe cheat and use Matchsticks. It will be a worthwhile investigation to learn how the shutting of ones eyes whilst listening, can be extremely detrimental to how the end produced sound is perceived.

Maybe somebody can contribute to assist with my selections that will enable my using an Audio System, that is 100% Produced from Natural Product. It seems vital such a condition is put in place to not be detrimental to the end sound being produced.

Ah forget offering any suggestions, I'm out of here, the whole idea, is seemingly to myself, a waste of my time. 

The Chalk Wall Decor, and Wood/Rug Flooring has proved plenty enough, with CD being quite acceptable if one feels a snooze is on the menu.  

       

The Cartridge Topic, where Alll thing being equal is quite important for the determining where best qualities are to be found, and offered with a convincing description.

Has now been met with even more variables, as Dress Code, Lighting, Observation, Seating Position and Seat Material are all entered as factors by the OP.

@mijostyn has attempted to show he has the option to attempt to match the seating as a Wooden Bench is available to be used. A bench might be overkill if the OP is only familiar with a Chair type of seat.

The there is not only the exact positioning of seat in relation to speaker, there is also the posture adopted whilst seated. Legs stretched out to max length, Legs with Bent Knee, Cross Legged. 

Maybe even foot size matters. 

All things being equal, good luck with such an idea, it is bad enough trying to believe all TT's in use are the exact same in their level adjustment. 

I'm struggling with much of what is on offer, as each are very very unique as reports, and I am left trying to conjecture the info to fill in blanks where info is deficient.

The latest parameter to be used as a means of unadulterated assessment is way out there.

I'll let the wider audience decide how rediculous this is to suggest as a requirement beyond the 1st of April. 

 

The extension of references to SS Phon's  with fundamental design being Current Driven and Transimpidence, has encouraged myself to investigate a few Phon's demo'd in recent years that made a very good impression. 

The Phon' demo'd aside numerous Phon's and the one I am a advocate of is now learned to be Transconductance as the fundamental design.

I now know by looking at a few models used at Bake Off's that there has been a Tranimpedance SS design present. That has not been able to produce a indelible impression.

The Phasemation EA350 has been another SS Phon' experienced as a Brand New model not too far back, that has been indelible for all the right reasons to my perceptions.  This a different fundamental design to the above that are referred to. 

The SS Design I listen to the most, and has now generated 50 Sales is my friends own design.  For myself this is able to really impress, it has much of the presence of the Transconductance Desigbln and EA 350.

I intend on owning my friends design further down the line, but to feel the Transconductance Model will be best demo'd along side it in the home system. 

The Sculpture A SUT will be an excellent device to have ready to experience in the home system for this same period of demo's

 

 

Now the subject is taking on a vety important area to be considered. 

Assessments of Audio {produced sound} are an Environmental Occurrence. 

The Amygdala sends info on into the limbic system, that generates  millions of Chemical Reactions, each unique to each individuai in how they influence a response or reaction to an exposure to a happening in their Environment. 

Read all the Books and White Papers one likes, the Amygdala is Survival, Humans are unable Control their survival mechanisms, but are very selective in academia they choose to learn . 

Nobody can evaluate or make a choice, as a result of their being a stimulus Sent to the Amygdala, without survival function having manifested,  way before choices are made. 

It something to be embraced not fought, even the smallest of willingness to comprehend is weight of one's shoulders. 

On this subject there is endless reading to be done and much is for the mindsets that are fully academic and research this field of Science.

As an absolute Layman and having learned research has stepped into the research of the Amygdala in a unusually intensified manner in the past 10 years.

There is now a lot of info that strongly suggests the Amygdala is the Gateway to how each Human has a unique relationship with their Environments and each individual are unique in their Sensory Perception.

Sound is one Sensory Perception that the Amygdala is going to process, and stimulate the Limbic System.

This is Survival and each individual is unique in how their Electrical Activity and Chemical Activity.

"With information traveling at 260 mph, more than 100,000 chemical reactions occurring per second, 86 billion cells and over 10,000 types of neurons, the human brain is probably the most complex entity known to man."

"One intriguing aspect of the limbic system as a mechanism for multiple chemical sensitivities is the system's responsiveness to both chemical and cortical stimuli. Therefore, conscious thought processes and emotional states influence limbic activity just as chemical or physical stimuli can. The former may be under more or less conscious control of the individual, whereas the latter arc almost entirely unconscious and automatic However, conscious efforts that play into the delicate circuitry of the limbic system may be able to alter or suppress concurrent electrical activity evoked by environmental agents."

My putting such info out there, is for one reason only, much of what one thinks they are contributing in elation to how an end sound has impacted on / influenced them. Is not their assessment of s Sound but a very unique response / reaction to a stimuli sent as a part of  survival function within the body from a sensory perception created in a particular environment. 

When an individual can get to the place, that they have one grain of sands worth of acceptance of this. The Flood Gates will open for them, and they will be quite liberated, knowing their interaction with sound is unique and not able to be replicated by another.

Or as an alternative, an individual might struggle with the concept of not being an authority, and will not even accept a Sand Grain of the knowledge strongly suggesting, their interaction with sound is unique, not able to be replicated by another's and is pretty much worthless to another individual.

"All things being equal" It is impossible to factor in only the Math and Production of a Particular device designed to create manage electricity. At one point the Electricity will meet with a Part designed to Transfer received Electrical Energy into a Sound.

When this sound is experienced the Human has a Survival Function, that will override all intellect, and will most likely be the control of the intellect to manifest.

All the above without adding to the mix, Phonophobia and Hyperacusis Tolerances, that are exponentially increasing in numbers being afflicted with symptoms as age increases.

I am not tested for Phonophobia or Hyperacusis, but I would bet I have a symptom discovered? I would bet I persevere with a enforced tolerance for my want to enjoy experiencing music.

Strange Fact to Ponder: Some of the most renowned and revered, who have produced Amplified Music have when tested, shown both P'phobia and H'acusis Symptoms that are quite prevalent.   

@lewm The Transconductance Phon' , I am referring to is the Paradise.

I have heard this in various build guises, from an individual's DIY attempt.

DIY Built with a renowned UK EE who builds these as the mentor and also the Bespoke Four Box Version produced by the renowned UK EE.

I have never heard this as a sole listener, and always heard it as an attendee to a group get together, where the Resident System is costing approx' £200K.

I have heard this Phon' debated by Directors of Audio Production Companies, Individuals who have commission designed Phon's for Audio Businesses, as well as a Proprietors of Audio Retail Business, where Phon's are handled up to multi £0000's.

Across the entirety of the attendees most will agree, for the cost to produce this Phon', and the level of performance that can be eked from it between Basic Build and Bespoke Build.

Ownership of one is a no brainer, as as £10K - £20K more will be required to get close to a version of a presentation that competes.

My Tonearm Designers own Design SS Phon', only made available to the Broader Audio Community about a year ago has been compared to the above Phon'.

Interesting outcomes have followed, as a few owners of the above Phon' have superseded this with the new available Phon'.

Even more interesting one customer has superseded their very expensive commercial Phon', with this new available Phon'. 

I am very familiar with my Tonearm Designers Phon' and it is the one that I believe will be the SS Phon' that I will have around me for when I stop using Valves.          

@dover As you are aware and others are within the Gon's Analog Section.

I have left on the Sub's Bench, equipment that plenty would really like to own, even aspire to own, as a result of the 'Personal Experiences' had through 'Demonstration' of alternatives options on tools to function as a equivalent role.

I am not forming an 'Opinion' I am making known how a 'Personal Experience' as a result of a 'Demonstration' made an impression.

I totally agree that my assessment made known is merely another 'Opinion' in the mix, and it is relevant to where my interest is at present.

The idea that certain experiences are indelible, keeps them at the forefront of sharing experiences.

Your last comments made are I assume based on your want to have a say other than an assessment of a direct experience through demonstration.

I am pleased to inform you, that you are to get the Hat Today to wear the following in a very Public Place:

 "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

    

It is a pleasure to learn that certain individuals make it their concern to Censor my Posts and not read them. The fact effort is made to achieve this, strongly  suggests there is some underlying emotional triggered issues not able to be resolved.  

It is also Hilarious to learn of a certain individual, who has added as a very recent  content to their Posts, the referencing ‘Amygdala’ and a Value for a RIAA. Is not having read Posts from the individual having brought these Subjects to the forefront of a discussion, suggesting Telepathy is now able to be exercised.

The idea of having Telepathy as an extension of the usual senses, is a little bit Fantastical. I would use Fantastical, another might say Delusional.

There are many times on the Gon, that my finger tips radiate a smile on each Keyboard contact. There are Posts made / to be made that are to make the involvement a highly amusing place to be, when interacting on the Gon', especially the Analog Section. 

Such effort in place for the avoidance / pretending to avoid 🤣 my Posts, do seem to be limited to the forum member, that are as a Keyboard Cruncher, making themselves known in a very small area of activity.

It does seem as a forum member, this type of individual has found a place where being Obsessed with their neediness to be seen as an Authority and being Significant has a place that a tolerance is shown for it. 

I also express a Tolerance to it, otherwise, I might express a different reaction to the ugliness of Posts that can delivered with such sprite or venom.

Let the Jury decide on how ugly and venomous a Post can be.

For those that are looking in and not too involved with their contributing. There are certain individuals within a Forum, that are present with a predatory pursuit , they are regularly, maybe even always, contributing to steer.

Again let the Jury decide on the agenda of the individual.

Within certain Threads on Audiogon, certain types of agenda where self interest is the fundamental, is attached like a Humongous Carbunckle. It becomes the Cornerstone of the Subject under discussion. Possibly my suspecting such Self Interest is once more prevailing , is the basis of this Post. Is not there recent announcement's of new electronics merchandise coming to fruition ??, especially centred around, previous Phon' Models being superseded with new models. 

I don't doubt anybody's capabilities who make claim, to be able to produce  electronic devices, maybe some above average, to be used for Audio Purposes. As I am not familiar with much work undertaken, it would be silly to suggest a Audio Product does not satisfy, as a result of not having received a Demo’ and in front of listening experience.

I also don't believe that the Math is King as some do, there is plenty known to strongly suggest the Math is one Variable in the overall.

The Math for the Electronics only becomes Sound as it leaves a Speakers Cross Over and Drives a Speaker to move Air.

Sound is the transfer of an energy to make air move.

Sound is the end goal, and assessing sound is a great way to decide where one is content with the experience being had.

All that comes before sound is management of electricity through a range of devices. 

When voicing of a device is undertaken, the Math can be tweaked endlessly to create a perception the end sound is a betterment.

When voicing a device that is already proven adequately in the Math Department, the end sound is the area of interest, the Math concern becomes a lesser interest.

End Sound is what matters, End Sound is the area that almost all with an interest in Audio Equipment express as an Interest.

All Electronic Devices assembled to produce a Audio System will produce sound, as the end result and that in general is plenty enough for most.

A smaller selection of users of Audio Systems seek out a refinement of the end sound being produced. Usually making decisions on very very personal preference's for their attraction to a particular sound.

I make references to my own preferences in Threads and on occasion, others who contribute are seen to express their own too.

Also what is interesting is that those who put substantial attention on to the one variable being the Math, are not too forward with their perceptions of sound. It does seem there is a selection of individuals who are seemingly convinced that the Math supersedes the requirement to be influenced by the end sound.

This selection of individuals who are seemingly convinced that the Math supersedes the requirement to be influenced by the end sound, may have something, but I am where I am in my own Journey, and as I don’t do the Math, it is an area I leave to other’s better than myself at such practices. As in all academic activity, there are expanses of knowledge and learning capability that differentiates individuals. One would be considered conceited if there self assessment of their capability was unusually elevated.

 For myself to date, I remain totally trusting of individuals I have selected for their adeptness and skillset in such an area where Math is required.   

As an individual who has experienced the end sound from a reasonable amount of Systems, which has incurred a broad range of Costs to create. As well as having heard selected devices added to a few systems that have been quite impressionable.

I have confidence and little concerns about my assessment of an end sound being produced. As an assessment offered from myself, is solely based on my unique preference for what an end sound can offer, along with a description of the impression having been made.

In relation to all Demo's had of the Paradise, it has been on a £200Kish System.

The Demo's were carried out in comparison to a range of Phon's present on the days I was in attendance of which the upper price range exceeds £10K.  

I have never heard this as a sole listener, and always heard it as an attendee to a group get together.

The following is something the individuals with a Self Interest might not want the broader forum membership to be introduced to:

I have heard this Phon' debated by Directors of Audio Production Companies, Individuals who have commission designed Phon's for Audio Businesses, Proprietors of Audio Retail Business, where Phon's are handled up to multi £0000's and I can also add, a UK Known Audio Journalist with over 30 Years as a Journalist/Editor.

Across the entirety of the attendees and cross talk, it would seem most will be somewhere in an agreement, that for the cost to produce this Phon', and the level of performance that can be eked from it between Basic Build and Bespoke Build, to have this as an item of interest would be very wise and prudent with ones finances.

As an assessment made with confidence, based on experiences had, an individual might just find their end game Phon', that presents in a way they are totally satisfied with  for very very sensible monies. It costs $00.00 and no pressure applied from the self interested types, to take the time to see how a Paradise Phon' can be produced for themselves.

For myself, I have my interest on another SS Phon' produced not too long ago and one that is continuously gaining a following across the Globe.

A Statement follows, that was made earlier in this Thread reflects my own activities around Audio and one that I am total agreement with.   

"Unfortunately I no longer have that decent sized group of audio friends nearby.  That was important since in San Diego I had opportunities to hear many different audio systems in a variety of home settings.  Just like live unamplified music, and the almost embarrassing number of components I've gone through, hearing a multitude of different systems is an education for our ears. "

I tip my hat to the foot work done.

Locked away solely in a room, and believing one has all the credentials to be a Armchair Audio Critic - Blah Blah Blah. 

To those using Telepathy - Happy Fantastical Reading 🤣🤣🤣

 

Disclaimer: I'm not sure if this reviewer is using a Wooden Chair for their reviews.

There is a similarity to a certain thought pattern where Large Sums of Monies parted with ensures the best is to be had.

  

I have been impressed in a way that is difficult to describe as a result of my experiencing a Carefully Thought Out Approach to producing a Low Eddy Signal Path in use on the Circuit between Cartridge to Power Amp.

I do know the Low Eddy Approach is now in use on the Power Amp connections as well.

This is something at present that is the highest of priorities to attempt to get right when I rebuild my system, which might prove to be the most cost effective betterment I have achieved in a very long time.

My search to Compliment the Low Eddy experience extended to discovering if devices used were specifically produced from Scratch to improve on the Management of a Low Eddy Signal. My interest being I would attempt to introduce these items as a curiosity to see where furthering the benefits might be realised.

My Search lead me to a discovery that is at present Free and unfortunately at resent I am not able to experience the part as I would like, which leaves the experience to be postponed.

The ECC System will have to wait for my own purposes.

Hopefully a Forum Member will Jump at the chance to experience for Free a affordable Cart' that has build standards and material selection not usually adopted that should be off appeal.

The Link will introduce Forum Members to a option for a Cart' that is very very realistic.

I have not heard this Cart' in use, so can't make a statement with conviction.

I will suggest, by using such a Cart' as the 'LS 10MkII' with a Phon' like a Paradise, or a Design like one produced by Salas.

For not too much monies there is plenty of memorable experiences to be had.

There is also a good Possibility a Phon' will be discovered that is not wanted to be exchanged.

Obviously my references to a Phon' of a certain type, are met with something that resembles the Viv Tonearm debacle. Look how many were convinced their usage was correct and the converts that manifested as the futile discussions kept on spieling out. 

My own introducing the Le Son Cart' Brand to this thread will most likely be met with Similar Viv Arm duplicated moments.

I really don't care, the options put out, are obtainable and reachable by many who are merely attempting to learn how to refine their listening to their Album collection.

My advise is silly monies are not a requirement to listen to an Album. 

 

Without going into referencing Parts being exchanged. 

My experiences had where Voicing Phonostages and Line Level Pre Amp's and even a Tonearm through Internal Wand Wire exchanges as a Signal Path has been that all Voicing methods used will add,

It is how much perceivable addition one is willing to accept as the goal of voicing. 

Again I have heard identical designs used in comparison, with only a few choice components in use changing the base build. 

When comparing for a short duration a change might be discovered that has increased attraction.

Allow a lesser liked model to have a extended play time, and the preferred model is not pined for. 

This is aldi the same with same models and differing VC's. 

Some VC's can pop with attraction. 

Today I look on it similar to CD and Vinyl. 

A short term comparison there are differences detected. Let either run on and neither not being used are pined for. 

Disclaimer: Many periods of comparison are not carried out with myself in a wooden chair. 

My findings might be accused of being compromised. 

 

 

@terry9 Stated "But the results are ... worth it to me."

Exactly my assessment of the additional time and expense added to my commission built Phon', when Voicing to my liking was a part of the build stage.

After having been demo'd a variety of VC's on a Pre Amp that is quite enjoyed.

I was also left very impressed after a Demo' using a particular expensive VC.

For my own design for this amp, I have had two Bespoke Built Mono VC's of a similar design, but with tighter matching for each channel.

I am yet to use them, but a friend who has them, is using them Temporarily on their builds, using them with a selection of VC's, and really likes the influence. 

The idea of having choice is a stimulus.

The extra effort made to produce changes as a result of making choices is a experience of learning.

I was learning all the time, to the point I settled for a particular sonic that was easily able to be Wed.

Once that discovery was made, I could no longer care for what other alternatives to the end sonic may be able to be produced.

I have been contented to this day and not thought about change. 

I have a box of Russian Cap's for a Speaker Xover design that was put in place for me.