@mijostyn I am waiting for the World to be a little kinder with its Land Grab attitudes. When such a long over due period of settled is finally back in place.
I can get back on track with my indulgent and long overdue Celebratory 'Post Covid' Cart' rebuild.
The design is solely because 'I can', more interesting to myself, two pertinent methods for the design have very recently been indirectly given a 'nod of ones head' that agrees the ideas are a practice worthwhile putting in place, 'my interpretation anyways'.
From one source, I have learnt that my design to bypass the Lead Out Pins on my Cadenza Black Donor Cart' and have PC Triple C / EX Wire as the Tag Wire / Continuous Signal Wire, direct attached to the Coils Winding, will be an improved Signal Path, when used as a bypass to the Cart's Lead Out Pins. There is evidence on models under investigation that is showing Ortofon Pins are Gold Plated Brass. For the source of the supplied info to have an alternate experience, I have made available to them AT OCC pins as exchange parts. Additionally, PC Triple C / EX is as a material, sharing similarities with Koetsu Coil Wire, where the Silver used is a very pure outer cladding, and not a electroplated coating. That info being made known,might be a point of Interest to some who are wondering about the very best signal Path for their Koetsu Cart's.
With @mijostyn now not finding a negative about the use of a Cactus Needle Cantilever when it comes to assessing 'end sound', along with the satisfaction seen reported from a selection of others who who have moved over to Cacti Needle Cantilevers.
My own selection for a eight years stored/aged Cacti Needle Cantilever also has a further substantiation for the exchange of Boron to a Cacti Material.
I don't think the last part of the design will achieve the same substantiation as have the above two choices for the design.
The six coats of Urushi Lacquer to the Cart's Body, to be applied by a UK resident trained in Fuki Urushi Applications as part of their preserving Japanese Samurai Artefacts, will be a difficult one to receive a substantiation on. The drying time for Urushi Lacquer is also a Hurdle to be overcome, but fortunately I will be able to separate the Parts to be coated well in advance of forwarding the entire Cart' to be worked on. Herpetology enclosures has helped massively with applications as Humidity and Temperatures can be set to create a very stable environment, to assist with application conditions and the drying process. I am very very confident that there are a host of Cart' owners with Urushi Lacquer who will be encouraging of the extra complication and indulgence.
As the Cart' in question does not need any treatment to minimise, eradicate the impact of moisture absorption on the structural element of the design. The Urushi Lacquer will only be adding a change to the Aesthetic, add Weight and possibly add a Mechanical Control, if the inherent properties is able to improve on how energies are being managed when transferred within the Cart's Structure? There is description to be found that strongly suggests Urushi Applied is a material that has mechanical influences.
Anyways, as said, Solely because 'I can'
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@pindac
You err in assuming that I am brand loyal.
I have listened to a number of cartridges over the decades. It’s simply that none moved me to make a change. If one did, I would have made the change. That said, after the Onyx was gifted to me, I came to the conclusion, for better or worse, that that is the horse I will ride into the sunset.
As you know, much of what makes something work is component matching. Staying with the Koetsu - along with the other components in the system that it is matched to, see link - makes life simpler, more stable going forward and allows me to just stfu and listen to the damn music! 🙂
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I am very much involved in experiences to be had that will mimic the Vinyl Sundays experiences quite closely.
Main difference being a Group of Individuals who have invested in their Audio Set Ups share venues to experience mainly their Vinyl, CD Sources, and one home has the extended option of offering a Streamed Music Experience.
Until recent years my whole Audio Experience has been Vinyl Centric, I was quite pleased when eventually discovered a CD presentation that I could Wed to, not bad after about 35 years of the Medium being available to myself.
After recent experiences of FLAC Files and Streamed Music, I see no reason why such a Medium is not an option for a Source within a System, even though I have detected in the system which is used for the demo's to be carried out, the Streamed content is a little less attractive as a musical content than both Vinyl, CD and FLAC. From all experiences of Streamed Music, I have not been super impressed, but do really see a place for the method, the user interface and end sonic, reminds me of a substantially upgraded Alexa, lacking the option to use a voice command.
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Dear @mijostyn : " it was on the bright side for my taste, probably because I tend to listen at louder volumes. I have EQ capability now and with a slight high end roll off this cartridge is definitely up there with the best "
SPL is not the cause of bright cartridge reproduction, higher SPL only increment the cartridge bright trouble.
In the other side you said that after using your Eq.processor is " up with the best " and I repect your opinion but for me a due of that Hyperion so high price tag sorry to say it but it's a " crap " of cartridge to compete with the " best ".
I know that severalowners are satisfied with but that " scenario " after your post means almost nothing. I listened once in an " unknow/no-experienced " system and have not a " trusty " opinion.
R.
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I have not heard a Hyperion, let alone the special MkII MR version, but I expect it is as sensitive to VTA as the Sussurro. I'm ashamed that it took me a couple of years to discover what I had been missing with the Sussurro. I wouldn't dismiss the Hyperion on one hearing in someone else's system that you yourself could not adjust.
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@mijostyn : Yes your Hyperion compliance is only 10cu, so in no way can even your rule of inferior limit tracking 80u. With that low compliance you can be lucky with around 70u this cartrisdge is a " bad " tracker and in this thread several gentlemants are in agreement of the critical importance of transient response all over the LP surface grooves does not matters the recordedd groove velocities and to achieve that transient response ( where MUSIC begin. ) the cartridge needs to has high tracking abilities.
You was extremely emphatic when in the Dava thread @mikelavigne posted that you need to test the Etsuro Gold and you said: never will bought a cartridge with at least minimum 80u on tracking spec.
That it’s not only an issue with that cartridge because talking of its cantilever the manufacturer says and a reviewer:
" “cactus spine” for the cantilever. The naturally tapered shape, stacked columnar fibers and desiccated resin damping fit the exact parameters of the perfect cantilever: Low mass, extreme rigidity, internal damping, and tremendous strength. "
"
its cactus-spine cantilever, an innovation motivated by the German engineer Frank Schröder, an expert in vinyl playback, a designer of tonearms, and a consultant to Ledermann. It may sound like a gimmick, but it’s not.
Soundsmith doesn’t specify the genus and species of cactus used, but claims that its spines combine the qualities most desirable in a cantilever: stiffness and damping. The spine’s stacked, longitudinal, columnar fibers are further damped with a desiccated resin. A. "
How those gentlemans can confirm those " desired " cantilever characteristics? over Boron or Diamod for example and that " resin " what and how is dampening and why need we that damping exctly in the cantilever?
In the other side the cartridge has not a wide frequency response for its price tag.
Dear friends, in several ways and through the time we audiophiles are way lower demanding and way conformist on the quality reproduction of almost all the audio items, more and more less demanding and with that conformism and that’s why manufacturers give us that so low quality products and we are truly satisfied with. In the past, say 30 years ago, any one of you can be sure that no audiophile at any price will be willing to buy a cartridge like the one in this post.
Almost the best TT’s/tonearms/cartridges came from the old/vintage times when audiophiles were really demanding. Those vintage analog items even today outperforms almost all today top ones like it or not that is the reality and if we audiophiles don’t improve way over today in the near future we have to eat only bs. and I’m sorry to tell it because I’m a member of the audio community.
Come on: Wake UP.
R.
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@mijostyn I have shared with a advocate of using the Cactus Spine as a Cantilever, a White Paper I had in my possession while trying to fathom out where the Cacti and Madake share similarities. The White Paper was specific to a Few Plants from the Cactaceae Genus, which are specifically renowned in the field of Acanthochronology for their unique structure and properties shown when put under test, to show their unique resilience.
The info for somebody like myself was not the easiest to make full comprehension of the entirety of the content, but there is sections that are understood with relative ease. The good thing is I don't really have to know much, there are others who fully get the reasoning and have adopted it to what seems like a really good measure.
What was of real interest was the very positive response from the advocate of Cacti Spines I shared the info with, as one Species presented in the White Paper is a Acicular chosen by this person.
I was content with learning a Acicular with an approx' eight years of controlled environmental storage was in reserve for my design for a Cart's transformation.
Repurposing Cart's, Cacti Spines as a Cantilever, using ones own owned materials for a extension of use. Really fits in with my progressing outlook on how I can develop a Circular Economy in my daily practices. It does seem like the Circular Economy concept has been rooted in myself before it actually received a trendy Title.
As said, I can so I did, better for my person, than being usual, where discarding is practiced to buy in new.
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Dear @dogberry It’s not try to dinish that cartridge because the real issue is deeper in the whole audioworld.
Take cartridges and please name it others than Lyra that really did it something real to up-grade this archaic medium that for been archaicis really a pain in the ass up grading.
Take TTs and other than the @richardkrebs K3 all is more of the same. Example Tech-Das a " rethinked Micro Seiki " at astronomical price tag. The SAT is in essence a Technics SP10.
Tonearms? please name itone today design that can compete with the EPA 100MK2 by Technics.
Now, not only audiophiles arebuying more of the same and even inferior that " the same " with lower quality reproduction at extremely high prices and unfortunatelly exist thousands of audiophiles willing to buy it and ceratinly they bought it.
Severalaudiophiles are waiting for the come back of Decca cartridges.
My home audio system performs at truly top levels with no single today ( other that our Essential 3180 ) audio item, not even atoday cartridge because the vintage ones Iown are very very good.Yes, at priorimy whole system is obsolete and archaic but competes with any $$$$ top system out there, my room/system truly honot MUSIC reproduction and this is at the end all about Ilook for and yes I’m way demanding and with out conformism other that what the life impedes.
dogberry the price tag of that cartridge is 10K and its frequency response 20hz-20khz hasaswing of 2db. Go figure of what you are paying and additionala bad tracker ! ! ! ! ? ? ?
I'm not against the manufacturer he has not the culprit about, it's his design and gentlemans buy it knowing those.
R.
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Raul, I’ve never heard the Hyperion, but to be fair an error of +/-1db, as quoted for it, does not allow for 2db of error at any single frequency, as I’m sure you know. Furthermore the Hyperion excels at channel separation and at a few other standard parameters. Do the latter excellent numbers make it a great cartridge? In my mind, no. The only thing that counts is listening.
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The Math alone is a guide, The Math alone will assist with isolating certain Cart's to be recognised, to be worthwhile listening to.
The Math alone is not an End Sound, and almost all are using the End Sound as the method of Evaluation. If the Audible Experience is not had, there is not any real substantiation to a assessment being made or offered as a description.
Math, Materials used for the production, along with the interfacing mechanically and electronically are what would be considered the factors that influence the End Sound, of which there are numerous permutations and not all used will ever be known about within one forum.
It is always best to spread ones investigations wide and increase the knowledge base,
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Actually it’s rare for a manufacturer to quote frequency response with upper and lower db boundaries. For a cartridge, +/- 1db between 20 and 20khz would seem to be excellent, keeping in mind we’re not talking about RIAA accuracy in a phono stage. Lyra claim 10 to 50kHz with no upper and lower boundaries. We can imagine those boundaries are much wider than +/- 1db.
Also, for any of these data to have real meaning, you’d want to know more about levels and the measuring method.
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Dear @lewm : " The only thing that counts is listening. " really?
" For a cartridge, +/- 1db between 20 and 20khz would seem to be excellent, keeping in mind we’re not talking about RIAA accuracy " really?
Please keepin mind that other that the LP the cartridge is nothing less than the SOURCE from where comes the MUSIC and is for me way more important that even the RIAA eq.accuracy and keep in mind too that that cartridge price tag is 10K not " penauts ".
Transient response along all the otherMUSIC reproduction desired characteristics starts in the cartridge as starts some of the added " colorations/distortions " .
I owned and own alot of cartridges:LOMC,MM,MI, HOMC and the like and I have a lot of cartridges FR charts with measuresat that FR range/crosstalk temperature during the measures VTF used and other parameters where you can see that several any kind of cartridge motor designs its charts show " dead flat " frequency response and the manufacturers gave to the customers these kind of information due to its critical importance.
Sorry, because I know for sure you are not stupid, but could be an stupidity to talk of "listening " or " excellent " FR when the owner ( forgeret about charts.) posted that HF brigth that he had to tamed thrhoughhis digital processor.
A cartridge must has dead flat FR in that frequency range. Ortofon is an exception because they do in purpose the FR deviation that I explained here in the forum several times why Ortofon does that.
In the past mijostyn showed a constant way of thinking and showeda demanding attitude in audio but in the last times he showed some of that " conformism " ( as you ) but I know that he is not conformist but the other way around. In the other side we can be sure that he does not paid those full 10K for that cartridge.
Btw, Where in " hell " is that " proudly " cantilever resin for damping. From where comes that " brigth " andother things?
Btw too, I posted a Swing of 2db. Anyway 1db FR deviation at any discret frequency affects the surrounded frequencies too and for me is unacceptable for all what I posted here and several other reasons.
Don't you think?,my opinion only just like yours.
Of course that I can be totally wrong but all those is what make sense to me.
R.
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Take a closer look at those data that used to come routinely in the box with a new cartridge. They often show errors from flat of 1db. My other point was that no magnetic cartridge is flat in its output, because output goes up with frequency due to increasing stylus velocity. Therefore you’re looking at the output after RIAA filtering is applied. So that adds a source of error in assessing what the cartridge is really doing. I do quite agree that $10,000 is too costly, and I’m dubious about cactus needles. But I wouldn’t condemn the idea without listening.
My other point is that currently most cartridge makers don’t even make a claim as regards the upper and lower boundaries of frequency response, including Lyra.
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@lewm : I remember your same doubt about cartridge dead flat FR and I remember too that @dover posted a link witrh the FR chart of his beloved Dynavector 13D that showed dead flat FR and as I said exist several cartridges with that kind of quality levels.
In the other side you posted that that cartridge " excels on channel separaion and other parameters " where the manufacturer just does not hows those measures.
Here you can see a real time measures in 3 diferent vintaje LOMC cartridges where Joseph Long re-tippiped ( change of stylus only ) and you can see excellent separation in cartridge channels that was something normal and not something " excellent " as you posted:
Cartridge pictures Raúl (canva.com)
Along those I sended to him the vintage Ortofon MC3000 MK2 and he eail to me:
"
and this is what Joseph email me along the picture:
" the Ortofon is testing very impressively. Over 40dB channel separation. Excellent sound. "
the picture:
Imgur: The magic of the Internet
and that cartridge has a hole in its body side, yes a hole.
You need to learn a little more about cartridges measures and history about. Your today way of thinking has no foundation.
R.
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I have been myself unsure about certain ideas selected for the using of a material type to be utilised for the purposes of producing Audio related equipment.
Stepping away from Metals only to Thermoplastic / Metals, that took a bit of convincing.
Stepping away from certain Tonearm Designs to a design utilising new very very stable materials, machined to unusual tolerances for a Tonearm of such a Value, the experience of such a design, was profound in how my thoughts were altered and the idea of making change become overwhelming.
The idea of selecting Beryllium as a Cantilever over other readily available options and the satisfaction that is to be had from it being used, has been substantial.
Now there is a New Approach to a particular Cantilever Material and the intent to avoid using a particular usually used material assembled into the Cart'..
Everything to date equates to, their is little to concern myself about. Those who are in the know, and have passed their knowledge on to myself, having proved the value of their knowledge tenfold to me.
I am not doubting in anyway my new intention to draw on another's knowledge, and use the not too common methods they are advocates off.
A Bespoke Build Cartridge and Bespoke Design for a very impressive Tonearm, to be produced as a Underhung Geometry are both potentially available, and steadily being encouraged to be produced. I see no reason why both are not to be realised and used regularly. There is plenty to suggest from assessments made of such unusual practices, that plenty is on offer.
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@lewm : that cartridge not only not excelin separation but unfortunatelly in no other parameter.
After FR themostobvious and important cartridge parameter is its tracking abilitiesand in this critical parameter that cartridge is far away with that so low compliance level. Excellent trackers ( 90u-100u ) even for 85u needs over 20cu .
High tracking cartridge abilities is what MUSIC reproduction needs no matter what. Everything is important but flat FR and tracking levels are more important to achieve top quality reproduction levels. in analog, remember: the cartridge is the MUSIC Source.
R.
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@dogberry Give the very acute profile of the MR stylus I would assume it is more difficult to align than the Sussurro.
@pindac You are going to have to wait another several thousand years. This is a basic characteristic of the human species. Still, the secret to a successful live is learning to have fun in spite of it.
@rauliruegas Do you think that I do not thoroughly assess the tracking ability of all my cartridges? A lower compliance only requires a higher VTF and that is not a problem for this stylus profile, More important is the mass of the moving assemblage, which in the case of the Hyperion is extremely low. It will handily handle velocities of 90 um. Just because it is 0.5 dB brighter than other cartridges is not a fatal flaw. It may be an advantage for people who listen at lower volumes.
Every system ever made gets brighter and bassier with volume, just a fact of life, Fletcher -Munson.
@frogman , Exactly, some equipment or systems are better at conveying the dynamic attributes of a live performance. That is why I use ESLs. People will agree that they have unmatched transient response, but think they are not very dynamic. This come with the experience of hearing older quads and KLH speakers. Give them the right power and remove them from having to output low bass gives you an entirely different situation.
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I think you’re taking your own thread off its rails, Raul.
SS do publish channel separation data for Hyperion, >36db at 1kHz, if memory serves. Our previous disagreement about response data had to do with RIAA accuracy, not cartridge output.
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This thread went of the rails when the OP brought the Amygdala into their Posts, they went into another realm where they never venture.
Assessing Sound is not all academic waffle, even though in Audio academia has a very large influence on how sound is produced, there is much that can be repelled as a result of Academia being used to its full influence on a design. There is also much that can be embraced as a result of an individuals experience and their understanding of academia, being used for its full influence on a design.
Hopefully now after a period to ponder the importance of Amygdala's influence on a individual, the OP is now coming to terms with their judgements are always askew to others own judgements when assessing sound in a particular environment.
My Motto is there is Hope for Everybody.
@mijostyn I am bamboozled by what will be a very long time being realised.
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If your amygdala knocks on your door, pretend you’re not home.
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@lewm good to see your finger tips smiling as they type.
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I’ll make my answer short :
MM I’ve owned : OM10 - Boomy midrange, treble rolled off - I can’t believe they are still selling this PoS
A Technics PMount in the 1980’s - ok but not much Bass
Shure M97HE (circa 1994) an excellent tracker but sadly the Cart. body oxidized over time in storage (weird)
Grado Red - MI which is my favorite “budget” Cartridge got lost again in storage and never found
and know two MC’s that I love :
Benz Micro wood body with I think a ML stylus (circa 1989) - it has a warm tone but presents everything (Rock, Jazz, & Classical) very nicely
Ortofon Quintet Black is a great all rounder which I first used for listening but know use it primarily to transcribe my vinyl to DSD files.
That my Cartridge journey from 1985 - present with a 15 year hiatus from Vinyl. I’m still a Digital Man but an Anlog Kid sometimes when I’m “In The Mood”
”Hey Baby, it’s a quarter to eight” , I feel I’m in the mood (for Vinyl) 😂
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Dear @mijostyn : Certainly that you are happy with your answer but in true this time you are wrong. Look:
normally the middled of the manufacturer VTF range is where the cartridge shows at its best and at the same time where the cartridge take care it self for the surface LP wear and that prefered manufacturer VTF value is the one used to make all kind of cartridge measures parameters it does not matters the stylus shape where in that manufacturer VTF is already took in count. The cartridge stylus shape per-sé does not defines the cartridge tracking abilities and only tells how deep/good can trace the groove modulations ( if can pick up more or less recorded information. ) but it's the cartridge compliance ( mainly lives in the cartridge kind of suspension where the designer already tooks in count the stylus shape and everything around the cantilever insluding its lenght. ) the one that defines if the cartridge can trace high, higher or to higher recorded velocities grooves and that's it
In the case of the Hyperion all happened at 2.0grs.
Your cartridge can't in anyway trace with out let in touch with the grooves at 90u
not even at 3grs-4grs. with out damaged the grooved LPsurface.
You just can't go from 10cu to 20cu only changing the VTF and with out grooves surface damage. This time and in this specific Hyperion regards you are wrong.
Look, the Excel made Etsuro Gold comes with a specially polished 80ummicroline diamond stylus shape an running at 2grs. it trace a little higher than 70u with a 10cu.
Please do it a favor and don't run your cartridge over 2.0grs
In the past I owned two fantastic LOMC cartridges designed by Ikeda with cantilever-less main characteristic, were the REX 9 and the 9C and where fantastic if and only if the LPdoes not comes with any high velocity recorded grooves because itsmistracking even at the manufacturer higher VTF it its VTF range: just let to stays in touch with the modulations and I had tu sold it.
R.
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@mijostyn : : this is my vintage Excel ES-10 LOMC cartridge:
and here the made it by Excel Etsuro Gold:
https://www.etsurojapan.com/product/gold
You can see that both cartridges share the same sapphire top plate and that's all.
My vintage design comes with lower output level, runs at lower than 1.5grs, has higher compliance and not came with the today Etsuro Super polished MicroLine stylus shape or the Etsuro diamond cantilever however the ESE-10 can track easily 90u against the little higher 70u in the today Etsuro.
R
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@mijostyn : You own the 11cu MC Diamond that under real time test only runs the 70u-75u band and its Replicany stylus is 100um that's a little better than the Etsuro in that specific shape.
Look, the Etsuro Gold 20K, Hyperion 10K and the 1979 design ES-10 250 bucks.
Btw, my mistake: the Excel runs at 1.7grs.
Now, please don't misunderstood me because I know that the Etsuro Gold sounds good and the Hyperion too but that's is not the overall issue because for those tag prices it must sounds nothing less than excellent.
R.
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@lewm : I had not previous disagreement because I never touched the eq. RIAA but you, I posted about the cartridge FR 20hz-20khz, you have a misunderstood.
Look, that 36db separation that for you is excellent SS shows it in its site for Mono version to shines a little more but I think that you did not look very well the 3 vintage normal separation real time pictures I linked where at least 2 of them shows better than 36db in stereo fashion not Mono as SS and J.Long said the 4 vintage MC3000MK2 has over 40db and this is not normal but excellent.
Now, I can’t find out cartridge FR charts with a 2b swing 20hz-20khz as the Hyperion one. Here you can see some of those charts that all are even with lower than 1db deviation and even flat, 2 of those charts comes from the same MC A6 cartridge where Highphonic shows it’s flat all over the FR range and obviously flat from 1khz-20khz that’s the range where mainly happens the higher deviations but even there you can see the 103 by Denon 60 bucks " totally flat " in that range. No one of those cartridges has a tag price not even 1/10 of the Hyperion one that from specs is for me a measured in the mediocrity/average, yes for you is excellent;
Raul Iruegas (canva.com)
No, it’s not " off its rails " but the other way around. The right transient response and the other critical characteristics that makes a cartridge an excellent quality performer never comes at random. So and for me the information is in the " rails " and we have to understand it or learn it or confirm what we know. Tha’s all about.
R.
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I’m sorry but where do you see a claim that any mono cartridge affords stereo separation of any sort?
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Here are stereo separation data, confirming >36db at 1kHz for the stereo version, and other pertinent data from the Upscale website. Can you find another cartridge with better numbers? I’m sure you can. My only point was these numbers are very good, better than most.
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@rauliruegas That old cartridge is a battle axe constructed with outdated techniques. The cantilever of any good modern cartridge is 1/2 the size and the stylus of the MR is so small you would have a hard time seeing it in a picture like that. Sorry Raul, you can not beat physics. You are thinking like an old a blog man. Your God is amplitude, it has to be flat or else? In the digital world amplitude is plastic, you can adjust it any which way you want. There is no right or wrong, only what you want to listen too. Factors like tracking ability are far more important and it seems you do not understand the relationship between compliance, VTF, contact patch and effective moving mass. Compliance is only one small part of the equation.
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I’d like to be present at a shootout between the Hyperion and a Grado Epoch3, two of the most expensive MI cartridges money can buy. And then I’d like to compare them to a B&O MMC1 or some others of the great vintage MI cartridges that never cost an arm and a leg, all on the same system of course.
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Hyperion vs Epoch3? Yes, interesting. I've compared their little brothers (Sussurro and Statement3) and have a clear preference. If Stewart does start manufacture of the London Reference again in August, you'll need a three-way competition!
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You can't beat a Bake Off to learn how short exposure to a device compares to another.
Extended Listening periods, where the individual listener is experiencing different moods, emotions and attention given, will change the perspective of the impression made from the devices in use.
I am happy to loan out items, even owned Cart's to enable this extension of experience to be materialised.
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@mijostyn : You are only bla, bla, bla, with out any white paper foundation or any " number ". Your bla, bla, bla, is not enough in this specific regards where this time you are still Wrong no matters what. My posts proved and have the foundation wth vintage and today top cartridges when you have NOTHING to show and you will not.
Your last sentence is totally wrong due that in reality is the other way around. Do you think J.Carr is wrong?. You are wrong, period. Please don’t insist, is useless and you can contaminate other in good shape gentlemans.
Sorry, this time.
R.
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@lewm : Your link shows Mono version. Enough.
R.
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@mijostyn : I know for sure that you have not a single hair of stupidity however in an very un-usual way you are posting several stupid things and I don’t know why but in this post I will try to help you again because you know that I appreciated you:
" The cantilever of any good modern cartridge is 1/2 the size and the stylus of the MR is so small you would have a hard time seeing it in a picture like that. Sorry Raul, you can not beat physics. ............................................................................................ it seems you do not understand the relationship between compliance, VTF, contact patch and effective moving mass. "
All of those is totally wrong:
Dynavector 13D came with the world smallest cantilever ever in cantilevered cartridge designs:1.3mm and was not the only one but in those times were the 23R and 17D too or one of the jcarr prefered vintage LOMC that is the Highphonic D15 with a minuscle cantilever and very wide FR range from 10hz to over 85khz where my MC A6 goes from 10hz to 75khz miniature cantilever and both cartridges with 24cu obviously great trackers
Guess what? that even today Dr. VDH reference cartridge is the vintage MM Technics EPC100C MK4 ( stand alone version. ) that came with tube tapered boron cantilever that is less weigthy than the today boron rod cantilevers but that’s not all because this very old MM cartridge comes with a stylus with the lowest effective world moving mass of only 0.098mg: yes you are reading well and yes very high compliance but all these examples are not the only ones there are a lot more and these are only examples for you can learn overall and don’t try to diminished again what I posted in that specific regards in this thread.
Yes,I can’t beat physics and certainly your misunderstood no sense bla, bla, bla, neither can.
R.
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Btw, I owned or own all those top vintage cartridges that I named.
That Technics MM cartridge can’t be overall beated for any MI design including the AKG P100 LE however the MM AT ML180OCC or the AT25 are a true challenge for it.
As a reality exist several great MM/MI/HOMC/LOMC that came from those old times. Lyra and VDH designers know it.
R.
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Raul, you’re misreading the data table. And what would be the meaning of “stereo separation” applied to any mono cartridge? Try again.
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Dear friends: The world of cartridges is really fascinating specially if you experienced the whole one over the years like me. I don’t know if any of you has my first hand wide cartridges experiences ( perhaps @dover but I don’t know for sure ).
My MUSIC knowledge levels other that the live MUSIC experiences comes from that cartridges world and it’s from here when that so critical MUSIC characteristics as Transient Response has a true meaning and you know for sure it’s the way it has to be and when you already had those experiences with the best of the best year after year for years it’s nothing but outstanding and fascinating as I said.
Now, imagine a pair of two different LOMC cartridges that runs at 0.7grs and 0.9grs with a wide FR of 110khz and very low output at 0.12mv and that can reproduce with high aplomb and true fidelity the Telarc 1812, go figure !. Yes Highphonic and Denon. Yes, both high compliance at around 26cu, there is no other way ( Physics Laws as mijos said. )
That MM Technics EPC 100CMK4 is not only the one with so low effective moving mass ( the world lowest. ) but with the widest FR range of any cartridge from 5hz to 120khz where only 2 SUTs I know ( one vintage I own and other today design. ) can shows off/brag that kind of wide FR range.
Exist a cartridge that runs as low as 0.25grs VTF with out mistracking that comes with a nude miniature diamond with 1 mil tracing radius.
I’m way fortunate to have all those years opportunities/experiences and that I still today can share with all of you other than the long MM thread.
R.
lewm: could be so what? Now I see that you trust in those 2 different models that shows exactly same specs?. which one was measured? or were measured both?
Never mind, who cares, not me.
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As stated in a earlier Post
"I would suggest a Cart' with a Cantilever produced from a Two Layer Boron Tube, has the ultimate Boron Type Material as a Cantilever.
The Technology required to go to the lengths to create the Boron Tube was quite a feat in itself. The Techies' in the hey day of Cart' R&D had some very interesting moments probing where to go next.
Need a Bake Off, Boron Tube vs Gold Plated Boron".
Interesting how my Posts are not read, but my subject content is at a later date referenced as the Cornerstone of another claim.
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If you don’t care, why do you keep arguing about it? SS claim the stereo Hyperion exhibits >36db stereo separation at 1kHz. Separation is pretty good at high frequencies too. Period.
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Dear friends: I forgot to talk of my oldest and a true cartridge gem that I don't listened in a few years and I will do in the next weeks because righ now I'm hooked up by a Ernst Benz colector design where even the stylus was made it by him self.
Here my oldest cartridge reviewed 6 years ago:
R.
Lewm, my mistake because I don't care about.
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I have tried to find value in this Thread but have not been introduced to anything that has got my attention, apart from the cost of TOTR MI Cart's, which won't suggest as being educational in relation to Audio as a means to create sound.
The Thread has caused myself to rethink a few things about my own contribution's to the Analog Section of this forum, so much that I can't but help sense, my repetitive covering of personal experiences had are seemingly mundane and not really a stimulus to encourage others who may look in to try something new.
For those who are looking in bit not contributing to the thread, I really hope something of value has been discovered from what has been read.
On that note, I will be taking a Hiatus from being a contributor to the Analog Section of Audiogon.
To all I have interacted with on the Analog Section, all the best in your future endeavors.
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Btw, even today we can find out with a little patience the ADC 26 through ( mainly ) ebay.
The ADC 26 is not exactly for any cartridge because the extreme compliance of 50cu that comes in that ADC design.
I think that all the cartridges ( any cartridge motor kind design. ) named here sooner or latter we can put our hands on it and is worth to try it.
When those vintage cartridges comes in good operation conditions you can be aware of its high quality performance levels and you can get for " penauts " prices.
I know that for several of you vintage is " forbidden " because we want the new ones but at the end: is it not the maximum MUSIC enjoyment through our LPs what we are looking for?
If yes, then new or vintage cartridges can satisfy that MUSIC maximum enjoyment
Don't you think? because in my audio life that's what I wa sand am always looking for but maybe that is only me and for me.
R.
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@mijostyn : It’s not coincidence that the Denon DL1000A not only goes to 110khz but runs at only 0.7grs been a LOMC cartridge but its cantilever that’s a short one is made of amorphous Boron pipe. The Highphonic uses diamond short cantilever and very high compliance to runs at 0.9grs.
Btw, Technics uses a technical: chemical vapor deposition to manufacture its cartridges Boron pipe.
Top cartridges in those times normally came with effective moving mass in the range: 0.098-0.22. Usually. The Technics 20’5MK4 had 0.149 on that parameter.
Today we can’t find out any single cartridge with those kind of numbers or any LOMC cartridge that can runs not at 0.7grs-0.9 not even at 1.25grs
Today times are very good and in the past were truly great specially with cartridges/tonearms/TTs but not electronics. Today are great times in electronics and very good in speakers if not excellent.
R.
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This thread is so far removed from the original poster (OP) that I won't even try to bring this one back. I have 3 Rega turntables and after the 4th time switching out the spacers from my B880 tonearm, I braised the locking screws. I became disgusted with the Rega (control freak) way even though the Asia, Asia Pro and Apheta 3 I had use previously were auto synched to the table, I wanted to experience other MC offerings which required spacers.
In any event, I decided to buy a Technics 1210 G and added several cartridges on different headshells including an AT33GTP/II MC (excellent), a Hana Shibata MC and a Denon 103R. I then added an Ortofon Black 2m (MM) to the mix and started doing some comparisons.
The least expensive cartridge in this lot is the Denon 103R, but at $600 it is open and breathes easy, especially for a conical stylus. The Ortofon Black 2M is probably among the best moving magnet designs I ha=ve ever heard but it lacks that high end my B & W Signature 702 S2s command. Don't get me wrong, in many systems, higher end moving coil cartridges are not a good value. My system is fairly high end and I invest more $$$ for cartridges to maximize the sound profile I am looking for.
On my Rega Planar 3 anniversary, I tried the Apheta 3 and realized that anything above the Ania Pro would not improve the sound. I then put the Exact 2 back on it and it performed well. Sounded within its boundaries. The Ania was a small upgrade from there, but in this mid-fi kit, (speakers are B & W 703 S2s), these carts were fine.
Finally, we all hear distinctly and what may be too high in the treble, may be perfect for someone else. I prefer natural bass with a reasonable decay (I balance the 702 Sigs with a REL ST/9x)--my daughter, the disco queen feels the "bass" is too light. As I said to each his own. Bottom Line: our collective audiophile hobby has no price points, just the desire to appreciate music and seek the respective affordable way to attain one's maximum output.
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Dear @mervo : I don't know what you mean: " removed by the OP ", I did not.
You are totally right with your last sentences:
" our collective audiophile hobby has no price points, just the desire to appreciate music and seek the respective affordable way to attain one's maximum output. "
That's the best each one of us can do. Thank's for share your opinion.
R.
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@rauliruegas It is very true that none of our modern day cartridges are near as compliant and track as light as cartridges back in the 70s and 80s, nor should they. The contact patches of modern styluses are far larger and the pressure loading even lighter than it was in spite of the lower compliance and higher VTFs. We discovered that those featherweight tonearms of yor do not sound near as good as modern, stiff, intermediate mass arms which require a lower compliance. I am very happy with the performance of modern cartridges and tonearms and have no desire to live in the past. Mike
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Dear @mijostyn : I don’t know why you are following posting no-sense information almost false and un-true.
Medium mass tonearm " require lower compliance ": totally false at any audio standard.
I own amodern mediummass tonearm and several vintage medium tonearms, I know what I’m talking about. You can ask lewm how good performs and with which kind of quality high compliance cartridges in his FR64/66.
" contact patches of modern styluses are far larger ", false again. MSL uses a semi-line contact, Ortofon still today uses Shibata/FG 70/FG80 y FG 100 not even the FG 110/120, Etsuro Gold 80u Micro-Line similar to the old AT cartridges.
Where is the problem then? that today LOMC cartridges are to heavy: your MC Diamond 17.5grs, MSL13grs, etc, etc.
The other problem is that today does not exist the heavy and very hard competence that in the old times cartridge market.
Matsudaira designer MSL cartridges designed too ( example ) Luxman vintage LOMC cartridges with a lower weight than 6grs. and with high compliance as other cartridges as Miyabi or Audiocraft that were not so diferents than the Luxman ( I owned severalof his cartridges including Supex. )
You love analog and tubes so you are living in the PAST not only me, difference is that I truly know how achieve maximum MUSIC enjoyment with that really archaic analog medium.
You know that I respect you but certainly not the false information you are sharing with us.
R.
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@rauliruegas Raul. you have to be kidding me. The styluses with the largest contact patches by far are the Replicant 100, The Soundlabs MR and the Gyger S. Not far behind are Lyra's Stylus, the MSL stylus and the Soundsmith OLC sylus. These are all modern styluses. I have studied all of them under the microscope and you have seen the pictures. The end result is that even with higher VTFs the actual pressure (PSI) the record is subjected to is lower, in some cases, much lower. Another factor is modern styluses are much smaller and mounted in ways that lower effective mass. All this improves tracking. The lightest assembly is definitely on the Hyperion MR.
Matching the Effective mass of a tonearm to the compliance of a cartridge is a very simple matter. Just measure the resonance frequency. Nobody today that I know of makes a tonearm like the Infinity Black widow or the Michell Vestigial which in my mind is a good thing. They are way too flexible. The Syrinx PU3 proved in most minds that stiffer tonearms perform better. Thus you have arms like the SAT and the 4 Points. I never liked FR tonearms, they are beautifully made overpriced garbage, but that is me. You like them and a lot of people like them. I also do not like the SAT arm. The Kuzma 4 Point is a much better value.
Again you have to be kidding me. My entire system is operated digitally including the turntable. The turntable's RIAA correction is digital which is way more accurate and better sounding. Most of my listening is done with ALAC files. The only reasons I listen to records are I have thousands of them, the habit is burned into my brain and I enjoy F-ing around with turntables, bicycles, 911s and Motorcycles, things that go around and around.
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@mijostyn : No,I'm not kidding you the subject is that you think that because you have a " super-microscope " that makesyou a cartridge expert but certainly you are far away from be a cartridge expert not even with decent knowledge levels.
" contact patches " : Replicant 100 is the FG 100 ( Gyger ) that came in the Ortofon Bronze/MC Diamond with VTF at around 2.5grs. but the Cadenza Blue comes with a way smaller " contact Patch " FG70 and VTF is exactly the same Ortofon recomendation.
I heve not time right now to completemy answer that I will latter but the anterior information says that:" Are you kidding me? ".
R.
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