MC-MM-MI CARTRIDGES . DO YOU KNOW WHICH HAS BETTER QUALITY PERFORMANCE? REALLY?

Dear friends: Yesterday received a call from the gentleman that came at my place with his CH P1/X1 and ask me for the model of the Astatic cartridge he listened here and tell me that he really still impressed with its quality level through his CH and my phonolinepreamp unit.

Yes, it's something unexpected for a 200 vintage cartridge. I still own the Astatic MF 300 that I think is new because I don't remember been tested, I will do and we will see. 

 

R.

Dear @richardkrebs : How you doing?  rauliruegas@hotmail.com

R.

Dear @lewm  :Through my audio years I modfied the elctronics I owned but  never touched any RIAA circuit mainly for what terry9 pointed out about in this thread.

Of course that all depends of the manufacturers quality designs and the owner targets.

First issue with the RIAA it's that is not linear but a developed curve whre any frequency change affects around two frequency octaves and this fact means that will introduce a coloration/distortion added that many times and depending of the quality system resolution we can or not aware of it.

It's not only about colorations but RIAA overall deviation.

In our designed units we can't even change a 0.022 uf and not only for all those but we were and are so demanding that going from measured 0.022uf to 0.023uf has a consequence, nothing comes by free depending on that design and your targets and we have to think that that cap is not only the cap but its very close relation ship wwith the other passive parts.

Well, that's me and nothing more than an opinion.

 

R.

@lewm  : " I have used.01uF and .022uF values mostly, in an RIAA circuit,  "

Was a RIAA circuit designed by you?. In a RIAA circuit using caps adding capacitance ( somewhere ) changes the RIAA deviation curve but if was you who designed it then you made a new calibration and if not that was a very bad " move " even if you like the result.

 

R.

Dear @lewm  : We need in the RIAA passive trusty ( bullet proof.) parts and the air electric has several issues about and what you can get today are variable value caps not fixed ones. For me it's out of question in the 3180 but I had to learn about and I did it thank's to terry.

 

In the other side audiophiles are not mentally prepared for the almost absolute neutrality with Wima/Vishay/Kemet caps in the audio signal. Almost all audiophiles areaccustom to additional colors other than the natural MUSIC color in the LP reproduction.. Now, if they do not know thatsome of those caps are in the audio signal you can be sure that never will be aware of it and will like what they listened throughly.

 

R.

Dear @terry9  : Thank you. Unfortunatelly the fixed ones hasvery low pf capacitance and are NOS so we can't get it in future and along that in reality for different reasons needs a special circuit board to use it.  It's not a true viable " excellent " option for a phonolinepreamp and non-imaginableforcrossover speakers.

In the other side I read somethings about  that kind of capacitors:

 

" One disadvantage of using air as a dielectric in a capacitor is that it has a relatively low dielectric constant compared to other materials. This means that a larger distance between the plates is needed to achieve the same capacitance as a capacitor with a higher dielectric constant material. Additionally, air is not suitable for use in capacitors that require a high level of stability or precision."

that could means bigger dimensions that other caps.

" In summary, an air capacitor would not be a viable energy storage option because the flowing air would not retain a dielectric constant necessary for the capacitor to work properly. "

" 

An air capac is a capacitor that uses air as a dielectric, and this capacitor can be designed in fixed or variable capacitance form. The fixed capacitance type is not often used because there are different types of fixed capacitors with much better characteristics than it, so the variable capacitance form is more frequently used due to its simple construction.

Air capacitors are usually made of two sets of semicircular metal plates, which are separated by an air dielectric material. Of these metal plates, one set is permanent and the other is attached to a shaft that allows the operator to rotate the assembly to change the capacitance when needed. When the overlap between the two metal plates is large, the capacitance is higher. Thus, the highest capacitance condition is reached when the overlap between the two sets of metal plates is maximum, while the lowest capacitance condition is reached once there is no overlap. For better capacitance control, finer adjustment, and higher accuracy, a reduction gear mechanism is used.

In addition, the capacitance value of air capacitors is very small, ranging from 100pF-1nF, while the operating voltage range is from 10 to 1000V. The breakdown voltage of the dielectric is small, so the electrical breakdown inside the capacitor can change, resulting in poor operation of the air capacitor. "

 

So, for me at the endyour adviselooks as useless in practic audio way.

 

Btw, the  self by-passing Multicaps means higher developed inductance that's not good and maybe from therecomes its kind of coloration that's away from the neutral Wima/Vishay or Kemet ones. Only my opinion through first hand experiences.

 

Thank's again, I learned.

 

R.

 

@lewm  : Do you tested Wima as coupling caps? and if yes: which model?

 

R.

Dear @terry9 : Please: can you share with me the link of your air dielectric source and models? here:

 

rauliruegas@hotmail.com

 

Appreciated, thank's in advance,

R.

@terry9 : Why can’t be serious? I’m refering that the same cap runs as the amplifier coupling capacitor and at the same time I’m taking advantage on that Levinson design and is used too as the high pass crossover for my speaker/subs.

So, the high pass filter is not an additional " nothing " in the speaker/sub audio signal,I just use that coupling cap for both jobs.

 

Btw, for years I used the Multicap polyestirene ones and still own in stck several samples and asafactI use it today in the high pass filter for the add-on back speaker tweeter that works from 7khz up. Btw, in my system applications main speaker crossovers and amplifiers input coupling caps the Multicaps were and are beated easily for theWima model I’m using and Kemet does the same. In my external hard wired speaker crossovers I’m using the Kemet for the woofers instead the Wima.

 

Now,all what I have to do is to make a self test at the input of the amplifiers and in the speaker tweeters waiting that the size of the air caps permits that I do it.

At both places is very easy to me detect be aware if the air cap can beats the Wima I’m " married ". I can’t make the test in the RIAA due that then we have to re-calibrates everything in that circuit to achieve our 0.012db RIAA deviation and this is to much work for us rigth now.

 

R.

 

 

 

 

 

Dear @terry9 : Well, there are some really critical factors in the RIAA curve stage and depends on what the designer decided is the best overall quality performance level kind of design.

In our phonolinepreamp caps are critical as resistors too. Yes,almost all know that the best dielectric is the air and in a different place I experienced years ago with IC cables with air as dielectric and over the time were outperformed for " normal " dielectric cables, in reality never sounds better but just different.

Now and talking only on caps I have to say that everything the same probably you are rigth however a cap is more than dielectric and I’m not trying to diminish the dielectric importance down there.

I have deep first hand experiences with caps running in speaker crossover and electronics as the RIAA and at the input of my 20.6 Levinson monoblokcs that functions as coupling ( by Levinson design ) and at the same time as high pass filter in my crossover aso this cap is two times critical in that electronics as in the RIAA.

I even started a cap issue thread that thanks to that I made " hundred " of discoveries that at the end let me know that I was wrong with my way of thinking that in those times and about caps were for the boutique caps levels as: Duelund, Mundorf, V-Caps, Clarity, Jantzen, Audyn, and the like. I used and tested all those names and using its top models as the Duelund silver or V-Cap teflon Cu.

No one in those both applications where I used can’t compete against Wima ( this was my conclusion. ) looking for true/real neutrality.

Wima does not uses Cu or Silver ow any other inmaginable cahrateristics as paper in oil or in wax and other aberrations as that but in the input of my 20.6 I was using a very expensive V-Cap Teflon Cu and Wima outperformed with out any single doubt and for afew dime$ ( no more than 5.00 vs over 300.00 )

Nothing can’t beats a good electronics design using the rigth model Wima cap that’s way humble cap at any standard but we have to remember that Wima is the Standard in the whole Industry not only audio.

For me it’s more important the design of the cap and the quality level excution of that design and in these Wima is way superior no matters what, in some models Kemet is very near to along Vishay.

You can look to almost any good electronics design and all of them use Wima, yes the red/blue ones different models. Boutique caps are MKTG making money with each one ignorance levels ( including manufacturers. ). I paid thousand of money for those caps ( I have to say: heavy colored caps, each one in different ways but down there just does not exist neutrality. ) and yes it was a very high price paid it but finally I learned and here there is no true going back.

In the audio world happens things that many times maybe we don’t have a scientific response due to its complexity of to many invloved parameters, the caps is an example but next an example of a truly old cartridge wher even its output pin connectors are not gold plated but is a true challenge for any today top cartridge. I made a review of and several gentlemans testify different sessions what I said in the thread:

 

Audiogon Discussion Forum

 

So, it’s dificult for me to confirm the air dielectric in caps other that my experiences with the IC cables. Wima knows for sure what it’s doing. Yes, almost no one likes Wima in the analog/electronics audio signal path because has not any coloration you can detect: this is why.

 

R.

Btw and about those DartZeel cartridges: even that what @mikelavigne  listened in that show he posted that sounds " very very good " and he listened through an analog rig similar to one of the 3-4 he owns and his Dartzeel electronics. This for me says a " lot " and I could think that the finished cartridge is even better.

The issue is how good is the cartridge in a non Dartzeel electronics.

 

It's weird that in the DartZeel web-site does not appears the cartridges.

 

R.

 

R.

Dear friends: DartZeel showwed in June-2023 a prototype ( @mlavigne  was there. ) and from the information in this link seems that the cartridge price includes a phono stage but I can’t be sure today:

 

DartZeel Phono Cartridge (audioshark.org)

 

R.

Dear @robert53  : Thank's for the new 2024 cartridge link..

Obviously " more of the same "  due that  in that regards nothing really can chage totally.

The Dartzeel cartridge looks as a heavy $$$ one and the information about says nothing special:

 

Model: FS 00 Founder Series

 

• Body ULH gilded with gold leaf
• Cantilever Squared diamond
• Stylus material Pure natural (non synthetic) diamond
• Stylus shape darTZeel ultimate proprietary shape
• Output voltage 0.066 mV
• Output impedance 2 ohms
• Coils – one single layer pure silver coated copper
• Frequency response 10 Hz – 100 kHz ± 1.5 dB
• Rise / fall time less than 1.5 µs
• Channel separation > 30 dB

 

Dartzeel has other new cartridges:

 

FS01 Founder Series

 

• Premium service
• Two free retips included within 5 years following delivery.
• Custom installation by the darTZeel team and/or Hervé Delétraz himself.
• CHF 53’535.35

Description

• Body ULH machined wood
• Cantilever Squared diamond
• Stylus material Pure natural (non synthetic) diamond
• Stylus shape darTZeel proprietary shape
• Output voltage 0.077 mV
• Output impedance 4 ohms
• Coils pure silver coated copper
• Frequency response 15 Hz – 25 kHz ± 1.5 dB
• Rise / fall time less than 2 µs
• Channel separation > 28 dB

 

and the FS02 Founder Series

 

• Premium service
• Two free retips included within 5 years following delivery.
• Custom installation by the darTZeel team and/or Hervé Delétraz himself.
• CHF 42’424.24

Description

• Body ULH machined wood
• Cantilever Ruby
• Stylus material Pure natural (non synthetic) diamond
• Stylus shape darTZeel proprietary shape
• Output voltage 0.088 mV
• Output impedance 5 ohms
• Coils pure silver coated copper
• Frequency response 20 Hz – 22 kHz ± 1.5 dB
• Rise / fall time less than 2.5 µs
• Channel separation > 28 dB

 

What all these cartridges shares is its very low output that the DartZeel phonolinepreamp can handled with out problem due that its active high gain stage goes at over 83db of amplification.

 

Well, we have to wait for owners opinion in its quality level performance and how compares against the top today cartridges. We will see.

 

R.

 

 

 

Dear @mijostyn : Good question that does no " talks " about cartridge inconsistences but phono stages with different design quality levels.

My experiences with the CH confirmed that statement because the same cartridge Etna Lambda SL runs in current and voltage design with no differences in signal to noise ratio and this against your unit speaks that the voltage CH design is really good because there is no reasons for a current design ( everything the same, specially the design quality level/knowledge down there. ) with same cartridge been superior to a voltage design.

Now, it’s way more easy to design a current mode phono stage that a voltage mode one and not all designers have the same knowledge level for both kind of designs but at the end there is no advatage between current vs voltage.

Other that CH I can’t remember other top top phono manufacturer using current design. I think that CH did it as marketing as a way to earn more money with out a true justification for the customers as is too the additional to RIAA different eq. curves and even the Wizard but it’s Ok because that’s the way for CH to offer its products to the market and always exist customers in that market for it as for your unit too.

 

" the point being that if a phono stage can not do both formats it should not be considered a viable option. "

 

Well, that is only a very personal statement that has a meaning only for you ( you are married with with out really knowing why. ) and that can’t be justified in anyway for cartridge owners that what the only thing we are looking for is the maximum MUSIC enjoyment where a good voltage design can and did it for years. Why have I to pay an additional money for that other option that in reality can’t outperforms the voltage one?

Please ask to Boulder, Gryphon, Dartzeel, FM Acoustics, Moons, and the like. Btw, Dartzeel designer says about :

 

 

" A lot has been written about phono amplifiers with a current source or voltage source… Many contemporary current source phono preamps claim that they are the something mostly unique and much more “modern”. Delétraz begs to differ. And with a reason…

The NHB-18NS uses a truly low impedance voltage source input so that the cartridge can express itself rather than being imprinted by the electronics signature of the phono stage.

Delétraz does not regard the source phono stages as inferior. All the contrary!

Delétraz does not regard the source phono stages as inferior. The CTH-8550 from 12 years ago already used a current source phono stage because it was easier to design it for a given (high) performance level. From Delétraz’s point of view, the revival of current sources and the assertion of anything new is not quite up to beat…"

 

R.

 

Dear @mijostyn  : " It is not the inconsistency of current mode or voltage mode. It is the inconsistency of cartridges. "

NO, it's the inconsistence of your current design phono stage where the manufacturer works more for specs than almost everything in his designs.

 

As the @dover  current design phono stages my experiences with the Classé Audio first true high end current design/Natural Impedance Loading where exactly the same working perfect to over 40ohm cartridges.

Additionala gentleman with my 12 years ago phono stage voltage design and against the BMC ( that I know does not works for specs only.) he prefers that voltage design with the same cartridges and LP recordings.

 

I just had the Swiss made CH current/voltage design with almost the same Lyra you own and the voltage unit I own outperformed and I know that the CH is way better design that your unit. Maybe your experiences about are alittle tolimited using that current design unit and perhaps you never had the opportunity to listen a state of the art voltage phono state design.

So, you and me have different first hand experiences about and that's all. Cartridges are not the culprit,at least not the MC Diamond that you can besure will performs very well in the CH.

 

R.

Dear @dover : You are rigth, that RIAA spec is a ridiculous one but  thatonly says the " stupid "level/audio knowledge that has whom posted. I never read his posts, useless.

Btw, this is coming from the manufacturer site:

 

" Ideal for professional use in bars and clubs and for at-home DJs and musicians who know what an RIAA curve should sound like, "

Who know what an RIAA should sound like: Really?. Same stupidity .

Yes, we have to learn about.

R.

Dear @dogberry  :Everything what I posted in this thread is not " one man best " and let me explain about.

Historically when I post about electronics or cartridges that someone else brought to my place to listen his or their audio items normally the listening sessions are for the guests ( 2-3 of them , very rare that came only one ) and what this means?:

I never gave/give to them my opinion on what I'm experimenting with those " new " items in my system. Conclusions do not come from mebut from them where sometimes coicide with my take and in other times not exactly as that.Aniway at the end of the sessions always discuss about and if necesary I repeat the listen experience where are to many doubts.

My opinion NEVER is one man opinion ( at least in the late times. ) and I want to let

clear.

 

In the other side and a bout current vs voltage mode @lewm  posted: " Nor would Raul... "

certainly I can't do it because I don't know each phono stage circuit boards design but as general voltage design is the way to go and I don't want to repeat what other very high knowledge technical gentlemans already posted in 2-3 other threads. but the inconsistency of current drive wasposted here by mijos when he posted that the Lyra works really good and the MC Diamond runs better in voltage mode and that's only an example. Now, the CH is toptop phono stage design and wasnot me but other two gentlemans whom said what I posted that I agree with.

 

R.

 

 

 

@mijostyn  : I can't talk on the Atlas but the Etna is similar design and sounds better through voltage design. The issue here is not " depends of cartridge " but more depend of phono stage/line electronics design. Even in the CH by a " hair " the Etna performs better than in current mode. Everything the same there is no reason for current outperforms voltage designs.

 

No he does not buy it because he has only 3 months with his CH that was an important investment around 54K and that's with out a line stage, so is an expensive stand alone phone stage.

 

Btw, I don't know yet which cartridge can outperforms the Astatic MF 200, is a tremendous and outstanding performer that at least for me tell me that phono cartridge today are only " refinenments " cartridges but I wondering which kind of refinements when a way vintage cartrridge design beats that top today cartridge and things are that at the end the cartridge motors is still the " same " with out a true deep changes. I think I paid 150 for the MF 200 that's in as new condition due that in those times I always try to buy at least 2 samples of the same model ( really inexpensive. ) due that were vintage and almost all second or third hand even in NOS condition a few times the cartridge gone down/failed.

 

R.

Dear friends: I had a really motivated and learning week end at my place.

A close audio friend came with a good friend of him that in the past been listened twice my system but this time he brought his 3 months old CHP1/X1 and his Lyra Etna Lambda SL and obviously with the CH recording to use the CH Wizard.

 

He ask to listen the Etna in the CH current sensing mode and that latter on in the normal voltage mode. I have to say that was and is a great opportunity for me not only tolisten the CH in my system but make several comparisons between current/voltage and even that the CH owner was not interested about we listen too MM/MI cartridges. We had a 7 full hours ( at least maybe a little more. ) of great listening fun where all of us learned.

 

We started to connect the P1 to my Essential 3180 integrated line stage for listen the Etna in current mode ( made it all the protocol in the CH digital software. ).

The CH owner knew my room/system qulity level performance . I was not surprised of the very high CH/Etna listened quality levels but who was surprised was the CH owner due that the 3180 line stage is a unique elctronic design. He brought wiith him his own LPs and I listened too to some mine. After a time weswitched to voltage mode where there we can't find out a winner mode stage and only we have a winner when we switched the Etna tomy voltage Essential 3180 that was really better than the CH in current/voltage modes. 

The lessons for allof us is that current mode in reality is not what today phono stages owners believe where the voltage in my 3180 is superior and in the CH through the 3180 line stage is at least at the same level than current mode and we had not any singlenoise levels better in current mode than voltage one. So I confirmed that current superiority is only a myht and not so good voltage designs against it.

But the big surprise for my audio friends where when I switched to a MF cartridge that @dgarretson named in this thread Astatic MF 200 where the top of the line is the MF 100 that I sold because the MF 200 is superior quality performer and the best of Astatic was the earlier MF 2500 that today I really regret to sold it.

Terrifc ( forsay the least ) quality levelperformance that no one but me could believe because the MF 200 outperformed the Etna in the CH or in the 3180. The MF 200 in the CH plays really good too but not like in the 3180.

All those confirm what in this thread and in other threads I posted that to really appreciate the true MM/MI/etc we need the rigth MM phono/line stagesand I'm proud to have it.

 

I remember than a friend Agoner that when the MMlong thread were with posts after more posts bymany audiophiles I told him to buy some of the real top cartridges that we can boughtfor less than 200 dollars and he never want it he was pesimistic/incredulous even with several audiophiles opinions about and obviously that losted that great opportunity and that same gentleman I offered twice that " rigth " MM stage and as with the cartridges he just rejected.

That's why I'm glad with the @dgarretson posts because he pulls the triger in those times, good.

That's the way I learned everything in my audio life:I almost always try everything and almost never say no.

 

R.

Dear @pryso :closed eyes/open eyes. Debate?

Certainly not because that listening characteristic is PERSONAL and each one of us is different in that specific regards.

 

It’s the same with the near field listening position, in both cases mijostyn posted what for me is his personal opinion where I disagree with him. His Amygdala has different information that mine.

 

R.

@mijostyn : " separate the audio band which is noticeable as you walk up the speaker. "

 

Not in mines that are true Professional Studio Monitors ( yes, for Studio recording not to audiophiles and that's how ADS designed. Telarc was one of  the labels that trusted in those monitors. ) where you can detect something if you are walking at less than 1m. I think is better that you talk of what you have that what other experiences are . Of course that you are free to talk of whatever you want any time you want it.

 

" Because I can’t listen to every cartridge out there I am not interested in the quality of performance of my system? So, the Atlas SL, MC Diamond and Hyperion MR are second rate cartridges? "

What I posted is not " every cartridge out there " but cartridges that beats the Hyperion and MC Diamond and I don’t know about the Lambda because I never heard in my system or a well know system.

About your subs that’s really good but is something that you love and sdie for: wood building where you have not only a high knowledge levels but full tools to do it so you are really enjoying your subs building. Again, good.

 

R.

 

@bdp24 : I remember that way, I have years that I don't listen to those label recordings and this is time to do it.

The Label producers were very carefully in all the recording choices as microphones and its positions,recorder machine and kind of tape,all tube electronics, Shefield Labs team,pressingand the like.

Stereophile reviewed 1-2 of PR recordings.

 

R.

@lewm  : " What happened was I lost nearly all consciousness of or obsession with purely the sound quality.  I was immersed in the experience as if it was happening in front of me. "

 

Spoton. Well in a little different way that's whatshould be happens only with the sound:IMMERSED in the experience ".

 

I don't need my eyes closed to achieve that but this is me.

 

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : " I do not have access to all those cartridges and never will. "

 

Well through this thread and other threads along that post it's clear for me that you are not looking the maximum room/system MUSIC accurated reproduction enjoyment ( what is in the recording, for good or bad. )

Yes, each one of us has different targets.

R.

 

 

Dear @jdougs  : Maybe you already know but with your Umami Redin " reality " you are listening to the over 15K Etsuro Gold where both cartridges shares the same cartridge motor and yes both are manufactured by Excel. The Etsuro is a Luxury Umami,so you are lucky.

 

Btw, if you can try to find out the vintage LOMC  Excel ES-10 that came with around 0.2mvoutput and where the cartridge top plate is totally made of pure saphyre, very good quality performer.

 

R.

As a fact I own 3 LPs from Boyk. I can' find out the other two but in one of them he played  one of the Prokofiev Sonatas.

 

R.

Dear @terry9 : I don’t know if you know that James Boyk is a very well regarded pianist too and made it Hall presentations several times with different scores.

 

I own one of his LP recordings where he plays: a Steinway with this program:

Debussy: Reflections in the Water.

Stravinsky: Sonata ( 1924 )

Shoenberg : Sis little Piano Pieces and

Ravel: Sonatina.

 

He has other LP recordings.

 

R.

@mijostyn  : " seriously evaluating a system I always close my eyes. "

 

Well that's the way you are accustom to, no problem and maybe when you are in the MUSIC Hall you are sleeping all the time with your eyes closed because in any concert hall not only there is ligth but air conditon noise too and several other issue. Again no problem with.

 

" a system as you begin to hear the individual drivers. "

 

Again no problem but you are wrong and not all multidiver speakers and room/system chain performs the same. What's happening with you?

 

R.

Dear @terry9 ​@mijostyn  and friends:It's obvious that not only the " color " on each cartridge changes but mainly the " color " where the other named characteristics change too but in different way and in way lower gradation.

 

Now, my audio/sound/MUSIC experiences through over 40+ years gave me a lot of lessons on how a human being " hears and listen and in my case this is what I do when listening at my place and what I learned it happening:

first I like to listen MUSIC/recordings at nigth when the street noise floor is lower as is my building noise floor.

I never wear any kind of clothe not made it by natural fabric as cotton, wool, silk and the like.

I don't listen with the room/system ligth off but not very shiny and I never listen with my eyes closed. Yes, my seat position is near field and when I want to listen something seriously by seat is a wood chair with my head totally free of any near boundary because my normal seat is a confortable couch that absorb the sound from speakers what is not a good idea.

 

" 

There's Life Above 20 Kilohertz!
A Survey of Musical Instrument Spectra to 102.4 KHz

---

James Boyk
California Institute of Technology
Music Lab, 0-51 Caltech, Pasadena, CA 91125, USA
Tel: +626 395-4590, E-mail: boyk@caltech.edu
Home: http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~musiclab

Copyright © 1992, 1997 James Boyk. All rights reserved.

 

Abstract

At least one member of each instrument family (strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion) produces energy to 40 kHz or above, and the spectra of some instruments reach this work's measurement limit of 102.4 kHz. Harmonics of muted trumpet extend to 80 kHz; violin and oboe, to above 40 kHz; and a cymbal crash was still strong at 100 kHz. In these particular examples, the proportion of energy above 20 kHz is, for the muted trumpet, 2 percent; violin, 0.04 percent; oboe, 0.01 percent; and cymbals, 40 percent. Instruments surveyed are trumpet with Harmon ("wah-wah") and straight mutes; French horn muted, unmuted and bell up; violin sul ponticello and double-stopped; oboe; claves; triangle; a drum rimshot; crash cymbals; piano; jangling keys; and sibilant speech. A discussion of the significance of these results describes others' work on perception of air- and bone-conducted ultrasound; and points out that even if ultrasound be taken as having no effect on perception of live sound, yet its presence may still pose a problem to the audio equipment designer and recording engineer. Given the existence of musical-instrument energy above 20 kilohertz, it is natural to ask whether the energy matters to human perception or music recording. The common view is that energy above 20 kHz does not matter, but AES preprint 3207 by Oohashi et al. claims that reproduced sound above 26 kHz "induces activation of alpha-EEG (electroencephalogram) rhythms that persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation, and can affect perception of sound quality." [4]       Oohashi and his colleagues recorded gamelan to a bandwidth of 60 kHz, and played back the recording to listeners through a speaker system with an extra tweeter for the range above 26 kHz. This tweeter was driven by its own amplifier, and the 26 kHz electronic crossover before the amplifier used steep filters. The experimenters found that the listeners' EEGs and their subjective ratings of the sound quality were affected by whether this "ultra-tweeter" was on or off, even though the listeners explicitly denied that the reproduced sound was affected by the ultra-tweeter, and also denied, when presented with the ultrasonics alone, that any sound at all was being played.       From the fact that changes in subjects' EEGs "persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation," Oohashi and his colleagues infer that in audio comparisons, a substantial silent period is required between successive samples to avoid the second evaluation's being corrupted by "hangover" of reaction to the first.       The preprint gives photos of EEG results for only three of sixteen subjects. I hope that more will be published. In a paper published in Science, Lenhardt et al. report that "bone-conducted ultrasonic hearing has been found capable of supporting frequency discrimination and speech detection in normal, older hearing-impaired, and profoundly deaf human subjects." [5] They speculate that the saccule may be involved, this being "an otolithic organ that responds to acceleration and gravity and may be responsible for transduction of sound after destruction of the cochlea," and they further point out that the saccule has neural cross-connections with the cochlea. [6] Even if we assume that air-conducted ultrasound does not affect direct perception of live sound, it might still affect us indirectly through interfering with the recording process. Every recording engineer knows that speech sibilants (Figure 10), jangling key rings (Figure 15), and muted trumpets (Figures 1 to 3) can expose problems in recording equipment. If the problems come from energy below 20 kHz, then the recording engineer simply needs better equipment. But if the problems prove to come from the energy beyond 20 kHz, then what's needed is either filtering, which is difficult to carry out without sonically harmful side effects; or wider bandwidth in the entire recording chain, including the storage medium; or a combination of the two.       On the other hand, if the assumption of the previous paragraph be wrong — if it is determined that sound components beyond 20 kHz do matter to human musical perception and pleasure — then for highest fidelity, the option of filtering would have to be rejected, and recording chains and storage media of wider bandwidth would be needed.  "

 

Now, human being " hears " not only with the ears but with his whole body along all his different senses and all the concious information stocked in his brain Amygdala but down there the majority of the Amygdala information we are not concious but has direct influence in all what our body does or reacts. Even our brain with all its resources and it does not matters that mijos can listen to 16khz the brain and senses synthetize over 50khz even if the speakers can's do it.

We are 24 hours alive and everything counts that's why I don't listen with my eyes closed because when I close my eyes immediatly I " look " different " figures/scenarios/ideas " etc etc.

The sense of vew is way important when we are listen at home as is to choose a time to listen when our nervous system is more or less in equilibrium because if we are under high distress or something to worry our senses are afected directly and the rhythm of what we are listening changes that when we are listening in equilibrium.

 

It's really complex what happens around/surround us and normally we don't take care about. I care on all the listening experience at a live event or in a room/system.

 

As all of you I listen my system to live each time the developing of the MUSIC enjoyment, I'm a MUSIC lover not a hardware lover.

 

R.

@mijostyn  : My mistake because I owned the DL 1000A and was and is way way better than any Koetsu of those times and I know becase I owned almost all Koetsu cartridges of those times.

Even today the DL 1000A is a great performer and one of the favorities of your Lambda designer and you can ask him.

 

That the speaker can not reproduce is not the issue.

 

R.

Dear @terry9 : " Am I correct in thinking that this is your favourite MM? Would you care to say more about why you like it? "

 

Well, not exactly. Today I have not a favorite cartridge between the top quality performers that share in between almost the same performance characteristics where what change in each one of those top cartridge motor designs mainly is its " color ".

All top LOMC/MI/MM/IM/ELECTROSTATIC and the like has first rate transient response; rhythm, dynamics, brigthness,agresiveness, tone equilibrium top to boo

om," perfet " handled of both FR extremes,no mistracking and superb noise floor. All can give you what is in the recordingadding the lessand losting the less.

I can easily truly enjoy MUSIC with any one of them.

 

Yes, now that I remember I have a favrite:MUSIC home system near " perfect " reproduction.

 

R.

@mijostyn  : " but the best a stylus can do is about 70 kHz.  "

The Technics it's not the only that goes beyond 100khz: Highphonic D-15 ( LOMC ) or other LOMC as the Denon DL 1000 and several others what's sure is that your Lambda can't and your 16khz is not the issue here. All counts in what we " hear ". Your post is wrong about.

 

Dear @mijostyn : " The Goldring 1042 is the best current MM cartridge I have recently heard, "

That’s a toy compared against any of the ones I listed here and I let you know only to examples of what I’m talking about:

 

the AT ML180OCC came with gold plated boron cantilever that not even today any cartridge manufacturer can find out and the Technics with boron cantilever too has a FR that goes from 5hz to 120khz that not even your best today LOMC can’t even it and yes both flat channels measured response. The Voice? what’s that.

You need to learn about but more important is that you need to listen it in your home system and when you finally could do it you will know of what quality performance levels I’m talking about. A way different league of what you are today accustom to.

 

R.

 

Dear @mijostyn  : I listened at least 4 times the SS SG cartridge and twice with my LP tracks and no mistracking issues, additional here mke246 use it against a great cartridge tracking as is the Shure he uses and he posted the SG is better in that specific regards.

 

R.

Dear friends: I can see that all of you are " inclined " for LOMC or MI cartridges and no one posted yet nothing important about MM cartridge motor designs. Well @dgarretson did it when he posted about Precept cartridge.

That fact, at least with the gentlemans that already posted ,  could says many things and for me says that no one of you were exposed/listened to top MM cartridges that outperforms The Voice or the Statement that mijos " die " for or top today/vintage LOMC cartridges.

One gentleman posted that he did not needs to listen MM cartridges and other said that owned the Grace F9 and that's it. Btw, the Grace F9 was in reality as an entry level in the Grace cartridge catalogue but the ones to listen was/is the F14 series that's where a high quality level belongs in Grace manufacturer.

Not even audiophiles as @lewm that posted about Stanton where he is an owner is a top MM vs the really top MM cartridges but at the medium step of that ladder, yes a good cartridge  but no more than that.

I was and am exposed/listen to the true/real top MM quality level performance ladder and that's why I put at the same level that all the other cartridge designs ladder alongits couple top truly to dedicated Pho Stage design that with out it no one can appreciates what I can .

Rigth not I'm listening one of those true top MM cartridge coming from Audio Technica: AT ML180 OCC that can beats any SS MI today cartridges but not only the AT outperforms several cartridge today designs but other MM too as: Audio Technica AT36 with today stylus shape: this is a fantastic performer as is the AT 160 LC OCC or the AT 25 but the Technics EPC 100C MK4 ( stand alone unit. )  or the U205CMK4 are incredible performers. Signet TK 10 ML MK2 or the Precept 440 and 550ML both came from AT Group and named by @dgarretson  or Pioneer 550E. Yes the JVC X-1 MK2 and Excel ES-70EX4 and I can't let out Shure with the Ultra 500 and the ML 140HE.

With out been exposed to one of those MM cartridges along a top first rate dedicated MM phono stage we can't know about MM cartridge performance levels and how it compares against the other cartridge motor designs.

I one of you has the rigth MM phono stage and is lucky enough then will can to find out a couple of those MM cartridges by ebay or directly in Yahoo Japan or other japanese web sited nad you can find out for peanuts when outperforms 10K+ yoday any kind of cartridge motor designs: some of them not all today samples of that level.

 

R.

Dear @bdp24 : I really don't disagrre with you from your last post but my point of view is a little different due that as we all know each link in the home system chain is overall important but when we are talking of the LP/analogue chain as a " mini-system " the both critical and more important issues other than the LP source and cartridge/tonearm alignment belongs to the cartridge it self and with out doubt the phonolinestage due that the cartridge is the " mini-system " source and the phonolinepreamp is the processor of the source cartridge signal.

Exist importance gradation levels in all the system chain and for me that's my gradation for very good reasons.

 

R.

@mijostyn  : " and it will not handle high groove velocities near as well as a MI or MC cartridge will. " 

SG has no mistracking problems as a fact exist many MC/MI that can't handle high velocities recorded LP grooves, not the SG. It's brigthness comes from no RIAA and from its dedicated phono stage but that cartridge ( SS models, not Panasonic or Sao Win. ) tracks everything even at inner grooves.

 

R.

@tomic601  : Audioquest cartridges weremade by Scan-Tech same builder ( OEM ) of all Lyra cartridges. 

So it's not at random that AQ came with very high quality performance levels.

R.

Dear @tomic601 : It’s weird that you mentioned the Audioquest HO AQ 404 because as you can read in my Agon virtual system that’s one of the HOMC cartridges that I own and for a good reason. Good.

Btw, Audioquest had the same model but LOMC design too.

 

R.

Dear @mahler123  : I'm curious how do you arrived to that conclusion that's similar to mine? because I read that you own only MM cartridge/phono stage. I don't think that what you posted was just at " random " but could be.

Can you explain a little about? thank's in advance.

 

R.

Dear @ak749  : IM means:Induced Magnet as the ADC crtridges and MF is: Moving Flux as the Astatic/Micro Seiki/Glanz and MP: Moving Permalloy like the Nagaoka ones. The Electrostatic I mentioned is the MicroAcoustic cartridges and all these cartridge motor designs work through MM phono stages.

You can get samples of all the cartridge motors mendioned in the thread through ebay and other web sites.

R.

Dear @mahler123 and friends :

" One can speak of general traits of differing technologies, but ultimately a high degree of musical fidelity can be obtained with all of them. "

 

Tha’s my main conclusion that I achieved through all my first hand experiences in the MUSIC/audio world.

 

Exist and existed several MM/LOMC/HOMC/MI/IM/MF/ELectrostatic/ and the like that are superb one against the other with no real winner no matter what.

 

As many of you I made and still make several cartridge compARISONS/EVALUATIONS/TESTS using over 30 different tonearms, over 10 different TTs, over 10 different phono stages, over 15 different SUTs, heavy different cartridge output levels/compliances/stylus shapes/cantilever materias and in several room/system and mainly in my room/system. In all cases/situations using almost the same test whole proccess using almost the same LP tracks at almost the same SPLs. So I trust in my unbiased conclusions.

One important issue is that my audio system noise floor is inaudible other that by a bat. You can swith on system link one by one or switch off and you can’t detect any noise even with your ear at 5cm. of my 95db efficiency speakers.

Each kind of design cartridge has its own noise floor and I agree with @mijostyn

that when we have a HO cartridge we totally now is HO and not a LOMC design no matter what and this is a heavy advantage between a HO cartridges against the LOMC ones but in the other side the LOMC cartridge has the great advantage that the cartridge signal pass internally to very short wires against the HO that in that specific regards makes a little higher signal degradation that the LOMC but nothig comes by free because that LOMC advantage has a price to pay for: it needs phonolinepreamps with additional gain stages that degrades too the cartridge signal where in the HO cartridges that degradation is lower.

So, it’s a figth between those cartridge specific characteristics that again has no inherent winner.

LOMC cartridges arenon sensible to load impedance/capacitance and this fact is an advantage when the MM and MI are sensible to load impedance and

capacitance.Nothing is perfect but electrostatic designs are not sensitive at allin those characteristics.

LOMC cartridges has other advantage when his cantilever/stylus is not changeable like the MM/MI/IM;MF;elctrostatic but in the old times and today these cartridge type of designs (not all only a few of them ) took assolution and B&O was the first design with fixed cantilever/stylus ( today only Grado and SS that came from B&O desin cartridges.) other manufacturers made different as Technics in his EPC 100C MK4 and Audio Technica in their models AT 24 and AT 25 but Signet too ( member of AT group. ) with the TKS9/10 where the stylus cantilever/is ounted in a tiny metal frame srewed to the bottom cartridge body.

This fixed cantilever/stylus is way important because avoid additional developed distortions that I detected with the Stanton/Pickering cartridge and where both been exactly the same cartridge design/motor Pickering

came with a tigther assemble to the cartridge than the Stanton one and you know what: you can interchange one for the other cantilever/stylus in the HO MM designs as a fact is the way how I listen to the Stanton.

There is an Agoner that almost hates the HOMC cartridges and my take is that he had not the opportunity to listen it in a first/top phonolinepreamp and the HOMC specific models that perfortma beautyful through a MM stage.We need a topMM stage to do it and for the MM cartridges and even the MI/MF/IM and the like that phono stage needs at least the we can load the cartridge at 100k not 47k and even 200k is better along the need it capacitance according each cartridge.

Well if some of us do not like the HOMC cartridges mainly reasons are the ones explained here but what about MC cartridges designs that are designed with user remplacable cantilever/stylus,ether LO/HO?

Well I still own 3 of those designs. One from Empire, one from Sony and the best ones in the world by Satin. Till you listen the Sony or Satin ( different models in between. ) HO changeable cantilever/stylus in the rigth MM phono stage you just can’t know whay you losted in the MUSIC enjoyment. The Sony was made by Satin and is a truly dificult cartridge to mates to any tonearm due that its weigth 18grs. with over 30 cu and 4.0mv output but it’s an excellent performer, its bass range is something you can live only true live MUSIC seated at near field position:period.

 

That I remember and he did it by coincidence the only Agonerbs that I know that already listened to a Satin HO replaceable stylus/cantilever are @sbank  and @dgarretson due that @sbank bougth from me a Satin ( that I still own and is formidable. ) that when he received and aftera few hours started to distort when @dgarretson by coicidence was at his place: Spencer knows about and yes I changed for a different cartridge that fortunatelly likes himand the Satin came back to me..

 

Btw, @dogberry touched the word " neurologist " and this link will explain all about that when listening MUSIC at home or in alive even or when we are doing comparisons:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8228195/#:~:text=The%20amygdala%20participates%20in%20the,of%20the%20fight%2Dor%2Dflight

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : " I auditioned the Strain Gauge. It is on the bright side do to response irregularities and it will not handle high groove velocities near as well as a MI or MC cartridge will. "

I agree with you on the brigth side of SG but not in your last sentence due that as optical cartridge design SG did not develops voltage due that " no sense " groove velocity but its amplitude and tha's why in the first page of the thread @mke246  posted that his SoundSmith SG cartridges has not only lower noise but lower distortion even at inner grooves that his high compliance Shure cartridge and he has reason on what he is listening.

 

R.

Dear @pryso : " I don’t intend to say attending one or two a year is sufficient. Repetition is needed to ingrain the unique sonics or each type of instrument and vocal range. Again there is the likelihood for sonic variations from one live venue to another, one brand or design of a given instrument to another, and individual vocal characteristics. So broad and aggregated experience becomes necessary. "

 

You are just spot on.

 

Btw, you know I live in México and in one of my USA trips I was in San Diego Area where I meet you along other incredible gentlemans and audiophiles. I was at your place listening your system through those great Duntech Sorveign and was at your home where took place the second shoot-out between the Dartzeel phonolinepreamp and my Essential 3150 That was a great time with all of you where the most important issue for me was to know great great human being with which all been shared our first hand experiences of our beloved hooby: MUSIC and MUSIC home reproduction.

For me the time with all of you were learning audio times that even today gaves me certainty to my way of thinking in audio world.

Same happened in Dallas ( two times ) with audio lovers as @albertporter and his group, he had the opportunity to listen the Essential 3150 and in the second trip the Essential 3160 too. I was in Idaho, Austin, LA, Denver, Georgia, twice in Houston where I been hosted in his house both times by a gentleman that is some one to meet him and obviously his audio friends he is @fcrowder where I listened for the very first time Rockport TT and the top of the line Acapella speakers: great room/system for say the least.

To many places to name all but I can’t let out Phiuladelphia area hosted by a dear @sbank and his group and between that group was @slipknot1 and that time we liste to the Essential 3150 in his place in a meeting with their audio area club ( at least 20 audiopphiles there ) where was there Lloyd Walker ( TT designer. ) a close fiend of him , obviously that he owned the Walker Procenium surrounded by top audio system.

From here a hot regards to all of them and you in especial.

 

R.

 

Dear @dgarretson  : Certainly is a real pleasure to meet you here again, as a fact I know that as me several Agoners miss you and miss your very kigh knowledge audio world levels either technically and sound system first hand experiences. I hope you can continue, time to time, in this forum that needs gentlemans as you.

 

" throughout your epic thread I accumulated many vintage TOTL MM/MI cartridges, many NOS, and was finally convinced that on identical tonearms a Stanton 981LZS was pretty close to a Lyra Etna. Not to mention top Grace, Precept, Astatic, even an inexpensive Sonus Blue-- a fast and lovely sounding very high compliance design. "

 

As you several music lovers/audiophiles ( including me ) really enjoy that " new " long cartridge voyage that still today continue.

Your sentence about the Stanton/Etna truly helps me to confirm part of my opinion/answer that till today I don't posted yet in this thread. Obviously that I have my self OP conclusions that will share with all Agoners any time from now.

Btw, yes optical old design cartridge is the " fashion " ( for good reasons. ) in analog with the advantage ( along SG cartridge designs. ) that to develops voltage through tracking grooves velocitties both optical/SG makes it as an amplitude devices and yes as everything in analog has its own trade-offs.

Good to see you again.

 

R.

Dear @terry9  :Both different cartridges overall tone color and other characteristics.

I used several cartridges with ruby cantilever and no oneof them really satisfied totally to me. The top  Grado lost alittle the natural agresiveness, brigthness and even agresiveness that we can listen seated at near field posiiton in live MUSIC but overall is a good performer.

@daveyf : " is the impact on the cartridge of the phono stage, and the arm, both of which make a very large difference. "

Yes, but remember that in the OP says: " everything the same. " and I touched there all what you posted and what @bslon did it to. Btw, the designer of your Aerial speakers by coincidence was the engineer in chief on ADS and he was the personal designer of my vintage  Professional Monitors ADS L2030 speakers, after ADS he started his own company: Aerial.

 

R.

Dear @daveyf  :I can see in your system the Kleos and I think the BM Ruby.

Permit me ask: why have you preference for the LOMC cartridges?.Btw, I own the Kleos and owned all Ruby versions.

 

R.

Dear @mglik  :I don't own the Epoch 3 but I own severalvintage Grado ones where the  TLZ is from where the your cartridge came on design and main difference is that the TLZ does not usegold wire and its cartridge body is plastic where cantilever is not made by ruby material.

The Grado TLZ series was the Joseph Grado cartridge motor design and the next model a tophad a 1K price in those old times.

So, I think in good " hands " with. The main characteristic I remember ( I still own the TLZ ) is that is a performer that just refuse to distort no matters what.I like it but " to musical " for me and different to the London Decca you owned.

Good that you enjoy it so much.

 

R.

 

Dear @frogman  :  I think I know you on MUSIC/audio reproduction targets and of course rhythm  is at the top chatacteristic and is not for free or at random because exist several reasons behind it.

From where comes/came that live MUSIC rhythm?. Well and this is only my take about:

months ago maybe years in other Agon forum was opened a thread with a dialogue about rhythm and I participated down there and what I posted is that differences for the better or bad belongs to Transient Response here is where starts MUSIC and from that Transient Response ( instruments/audio system ) is developed the Rhythm and MUSIC Dynamics.

That first attack that @bdp24  is exactly where start Transient Response but the Rhythm that is developed depends of several issues:

first which the rhythm proposed by the MUSIC composer and is very important because  ( example ) the Orchestra Director needs a correct explicit interpretation of what the composer try to achieve and the Director must has to transmit that issue to the Orchestra players  that's why so many training sessions to show a MUSICAL score to the Hall public seated there. 

But here exist some troubles: one is the venue that has implicated part of the natural color of tha MUSIC score, then the quality level of all the player instruments and obviously their talent invloved there but each human being today can have a rhtyhm/feels and 6 hours latter a little different one due to changes in the mood or for whatever other reason.

With out transient response rhythm can exist, overall is to complicated to explain it and needs a new thread but at the end that rhythm is what makes the differences between cartridges even coming from the same manufacturer.

The ones like me that owns or listened in their system several cartridges know exactly what I'm talking about. Each cartridge has its own rhythm that sometime makes us to move our legs/foots very easy and other times not so easy or even no movements at all and yes we  all have our own rhythm too.

Cartridges with out rhythm are cartridges with bad transient response or not so good levels.

 

R.