Magnepan .7 Alternatives

At that price point for a DAC, you’re squarely in Topping and SMSL territory. Looked down by many here, but I like them, they’re in my modest wheelhouse. Just got a SMSL DO100, an entry level DAC, but I must say it sounds mighty fine, fully transparent with shimmery highs and solid driving lows, as well as smooth midrange. Measures perfectly, if that means anything to you, probably around 30 dB higher in SINAD than what you have now. Listening through my MMGs with Airborne Magna Risers is an awesome experience, oodles of detail from top to bottom. A couple of recordings are bright or sharp, but that’s just bad mastering. Should be thankful to have a system resolving enough to tell the difference.

But with such a high resolution and high fidelity source, have to be careful that your preamp isn’t a bottleneck. I compared between going through my tube pre, a Rogue Metis, and straight into my amp through balanced connections, and it’s clearly better without the pre, which was a bit of a bummer for me. Not even using my good old buddy right now which has served me well for so many years, and my precious turntable isn’t hooked up either. Plan on alleviating that soon, the Topping Pre90 is on my Christmas list. But right now I’m in digital audio nirvana, something I thought wasn’t possible a short time ago. I would go for either SMSL DO100 or DO200 for best bang for buck. The DO200 adds MQA and some tone control presets.

So here’s my question, Can anyone recommend an inexpensive DAC that’s a step up above the Bluesound Node’s in the $300-$500 dollar range that I’d hear a significant difference with? That’s all I can swing right now, so I’d like hear your thoughts / suggestions

significant difference over node n130 at $300-500 price point for an outboard dac? don’t think its gonna happen

closer to a grand, particularly if bought used... yes, definitely...

My mistake … My Bluesound Node is the N130 not the 2i 

Hey, I’m back… Had to fly up to NJ for my mother in law’s funeral and couldn’t get a flight back to Florida due to the Hurricane…Got back on Sunday to minimal damage and once situated took Jonny R’s advice from Audio Connection and ran the Bluesound Node 2i directly to the Odyssey amp and no difference.

I need to elaborate, my system sounds great and I confirmed with Klaus over at Odyssey Audio that the the amp is 22k not 10k as Johnny R had mentioned.

The issue seems to be the output quality of the Bluesound Node 2i from the source I’m streaming, which is Amazon Prime Music, sounds great a majority of the time but other times ugh!  My (2) REL T5x subs couldn’t be dialed in more perfectly and complement the .7 Maggi’s beautifully. 

I called and spoke with Johnny R over at Audio Connection, his suggestion was to use an amp with more input impedance, more like 100k to really make the Maggi’s shine, unfortunately this is the amp I’ve got and to tell you the truth, I really like the amp, so no plans in the immediate future to switch it out. His reasoning was he felt the tube preamp, my tubes4hifi SP-13’s ability was limited by the Odyssey’s lower 22k input impedance. I can’t say enough how much I really like how my Odyssey Khartago Extreme sounds and is a keeper. 

We did agree adding a better DAC than what’s in the Bluesound Node to the chain would significantly improve what I’m feeding the preamp then amp, thus making a better listening experience when streaming.

So here’s my question, Can anyone recommend an inexpensive DAC that’s a step up above the Bluesound Node’s in the $300-$500 dollar range that I’d hear a significant difference with?  That’s all I can swing right now, so I’d like hear your thoughts / suggestions . 

DAC’s like the Ifi units in my price range pretty much are a lateral move, so please keep that in mind.

@flasd 

Your audio components seem to reflect careful audiophile choices.  I'd expect a major sonic uptick with better speakers.  

$3k floorstander speaker suggestions great price/performance:

• Tekton
• GoldenEar Triton
• Monitor Audio Gold

I have wrestled those dragons! The good news is that they can be set up to sound amazing….

To achieve this they will need to be 

-Bi-amped

-EQ corrected

-Crossover‘s modified 

-Signal quality and room treatment considerations

If it can be replicated as our set up, it is a rich immersive sound, intimate and not treble forward.  *Enjoyable with most content.*

If you’re interested in help toward pursuing this, send me a PM.   Otherwise pursue a more plug and play friendly speaker.  The Wharfdale Linton‘s are in that price range, with a frequency response that should complement a good range of sounds.  

@flasd Though maybe too late, all I can say that I combined two Magnepans .7 + two RELs Quake II + one Dussun V8i (2x500W at 4 Ohm. Magnetostats need real current). The perfect combination that reproduces all kinds of music. From classical guitar, Baroque, Frank Zappa, Armin van Buuren, David Bowie, Daft Punk to ACDC. Provided that the REL's are set to modestly fill in. If you give them too much base, they'll loose integration with the pure and clean sound of the Magnepans. If you want to feel the base rather than hearing it, planar speakers in general are not your peace of cake.

I have Emerald Physics 3.4 OB 12" mid-woofer with 1" polyester concentric tweeter. Ive own many speakers over my 6+ decades (including Maggies). IMHO, the 3.4s would be a great fit for your room.

Unfortunately, they are no longer made, BUT, they do come up for sale from time to time for under $2K

While I like my .7s, what I really like is acoustic music. I honestly don’t think they are the best choice for amplified rock and the like. Also, when I auditioned the .7 at a local dealer (lucky me!) with a Rogue Sphinx, a Node was the source. I was so disappointed from the first sound I heard. So was my wife. I asked to change the source to turntable and CD. Much better. On any good system, weak sources or recordings get shown up. My DAC, a PS Audio Directstream, is the most expensive component now in my system. I didn’t plan it that way, but that’s where the search led.

If you ask me, I think there are many, many fine amps that don’t cost a fortune. Picking the speaker that fits your own ear and music preferences — and your room — sets the stage. And then feed the system with the very best signal you can afford, meaning good recordings and a good TT cartridge and a good DAC. Best of luck in your search.

It is very simple first the recordings second take a power amp.

preamp to power amp gain/impedance matching is one of the most difficult issues for many audiophiles playing with separates

sometimes it can only be sorted out via trial and error, which can be an expensive proposition

one of the reasons why it is often a smart practice to use separates from the same maker, or rely on a good dealer who has this aspect well understood and embedded in their equipment recommendation to the customer

I had the same issue, and want to reiterate what was mentioned here that mixing and matching components is a tricky business, some things just don’t work well together even though they are lauded and praised. My tube preamp/amp combo seemed to be good on some tracks and lifeless in others. I blamed recordings, but that’s not the reason. Once I went to a matched system, preamp amp, dac all by the same company everything clicked. Also, preamps really are important! Turning down the volume proves Maggie’s do miracles with the right setup. It’s when you try to use volume to create more engagement it can suffer. 

If anyone is interested, my pair of Eminent Tech LFT-8b’s are for sale here on Audiogon right now. The only reason for selling them is that we moved and the new living room is trapezoid shaped, with the furniture positioned such that the entertainment center is in one corner, not allowing for a good dipole back bounce. Otherwise, as others have said, they’re wonderful speakers with tremendous clarity and musicality.

Room makes a huge difference in how the Maggies sound, I have had my Maggies in 3 separate rooms over the 8 years I have owned them and I was a winner in 2 out of 3. I was also skeptical about adding a subwoofer to my 1.7i's, coz on paper it sounds logical, cone cannot keep up with dipole, but then a deal came up locally for a REL S3 SHO and I was like what the hell, let me give it a try. I was always happy with my Maggies until then, but man was I gobsmacked, The REL integrated beautifully with the Maggies and it took it many notches above where it already was. The music got a heft that you didn't even realize was missing. Maggies are truly a magical speaker. I hope you find that bliss OP.

LFT 8B or LFT 8C....

Before you ditch the Maggies...please check on placement.  I would say at least 2 feet from the back wall and use a measuing tape to get the distance of each exact. I have had MGIIs and currently MGIIIa models...setup is critical. I biamp mine with a pair of brystons and a bryston 10A crossover.  after screwing around with position for quite some time they sound great....that being said, if I were to change, I would go with Martin Logan.  They have a lot of the advantages of the Maggies, but a little more bottom end.

Look at Tekton. I have maggies and vandersteen and bought a pair of Double Impacts SE. Wow, big bass slam with clarity. Get the 4 ohm of whatever model will fit your space. IMO. I have not let go of my MMGs or Vandys. I think the sonic signature is similar on these.

@rnl997, I too have heard great things (but haven't actually heard) the Ohm Walsh 1000 talls and they are within OP's budget.  there are several threads here by fanboys of the Ohm Walsh speakers and probably are a lot more forgiving of crappy recordings than the Maggies and easier to drive.

Try and listen  to these

I'm not getting it?

Unless your room expands and contracts, then the size of your room or where you sit can't explain inconsistency  I kind of doubt that..

If it is inconsistent, then either A) You're equipment is malfunctioning (and needs to be isolated and replaced) or B) you are running into "lesser" recordings, so they do not sound good.  It is that simple.  I'm guessing it is the latter.Or some believe other factors like time of the day (electricity) or listening in the dark make a difference...I am not thinking this is the case.

Regardless, a few thousand dollars isn't going to do it.  My only advice would be to save your money and by "pre-owned".  Like a car, you get a whole lot of more for your dollar.

The biggest mistake is that 99% wants a low, i call it in  Netherlands a pump low but  thats not a instrumental low. They want a lot of pression and thats not a musical low. A magnepan give the most natural  instrumental low. But evrything depends how is the recording. A room full with low pumping air is not a bass guitar or a contra bass.

Check out Spatial Audio open baffle speakers several sizes ,even builtin

powered subs.

First off condolences on your loss.

I’ve been watching this thread with great interest as I recently purchased the .7 and couldn’t be happier with them.

I would definitely take Johnny R.’s advice and go straight out of the Node into your amp. Impedance mismatching and system synergies are real things and it’s easy to try.

2nd, I don’t know how flexible you are with placement, but i think you’re sitting way too far away in a room that small. My room is 11’ x 13’. I’m setup on the short wall. From the front wall to the top screw on the Maggie frame on the inside edge is 3’. Tweeters are out and I have them toed in significantly. The speakers are about 6’ apart and I’m sitting about 6’ away.

The soundstage and imaging is superb. Probably the best I’ve heard in my room.

The fact that your room is nearly square is not doing you any favors, but don’t believe the naysayers that say Maggies don’t work in a small room. I’m proof that they do and can excel.

Also, the Node is a great little entry into streaming, but as funds allow; I recommend stepping up to one of the better streamers from the likes of Lumin, Auralic, or Aurender.

Best of luck to you and happy listening,
Joe

There is always an alternative, except one...

Your biggest issue is the room.  When reading your room was near square I thought 'ow, the only save is a low ceiling...'  Yeah, some room treatment would help, even with anything new to the situation.

AMT fan myself when I'm not listening to my Walsh, so I 'do' dipoles and omnis...in a larger space ( 16w x 20' 'ish', 12'h average, sloped). 

The MMGa’s I lucked into are pleasant if a little ’polite’ imho. I run them with a sub that needs to be tweeked to fall in the mags...works for me.

They are particular as to what sounds best from them. Vocals are nice, melodic works best. But they need space about them to do their dipol thing, lightly furnished on the back wall...

My condolences to the OP, and family first. Take the time. ;)

There are 3 immediate problems I see: 1) the room is too small to allow a dipole to work properly. 12 x 18 would be more like it. 2) the acoustical panels would be of more help on the sidewalls helping to scatter and diminish the first reflections, effectively helping the room sound bigger. 3) the dimensions are nearly cubical, causing a cluster of eigentone resonances in the 100-120 Hz range.

For speakers, the Monitor Audio Silver 300 7G works well with the face only 24-30" from the back wall and 18-24" from the sidewalls. With dual 6" woofers and dual rear-facing ports, bass tuning is easily matched to your taste and the room. While the Soundstage will never be as big as a Maggie, you'll never get that with Maggie's in a small room anyway. But the midrange clarity and dynamics of the MAs will capture your attention every time. Anything with larger 8" woofers will likely overload the room. Other high quality brands with similar configuration 2X6" woofers, stuffable ports will yield similar results, only with their own 'flavor' e.g. B&W, Focal, Dynaudio, to name three.

I'd also consider a few more acoustical panels. The short critical distance in a small room means the reverberant field overwhelms the direct sound very early. More acoustical treatment will help mitigate that.

Once you've addressed the the big acoustical issues, then if you wish to pursue tweaks, you'll have an environment where you might actually be able to hear minor improvements. 

Finally, different mixes of the same song from different platforms can and do sound dramatically different. Some will favor your rig, and some won't. 

The peddler Dave and Troy strike again!

we have a set of amazing mini monitors that will give you a warmer sound with more precise imaging 

the speakers are jern cast iron and graphite loudspeakers 0 cabinet resonances so they sound like planners 

and they match with your subs 

we have ome pair on speciel normally 5k

see our ad on audiogon

Dave and Troy

Audio intellect nj

jern importers

I have always liked the planar or ribbon sound. I hadn't tried the Magnepans so a few years ago, I found someone selling the LRS speakers nearby and went for a listen and really liked them. I loved them but also felt a loss in the bass and dynamic area so I sold them and found a used set of .7s which I thought were better in all respects. I had a guy listen and he asked if I had a subwoofer going. They were in a large room that is my office so they are out from the wall about three feet but there are open shelves of boxes and files behind them. My office not a good set up for listening because I have a half wall in the middle. My computer and chair where I do a lot of my listening is about 12 feet away and is semi-blocked by some partial walls but that is where I am working which is what I do a lot when I am listening.  

After listening for a while, the nagging feeling of missing dynamics and bass kept creeping in. I kept looking at forums and found discussions on open baffle speakers. The main thing that jumped out was the description of the sound to be similar to Magnepans but with the dynamics and bass. I followed trails and finally honed in on Spatial Audio Labs as a source. I saw some sound demos from a dedicated buyer on YouTube and the sound quality came through even on that format. 

I lucked into finding someone selling their X5s about 100 miles away. I drove there and listened and got a great deal and brought them home. Again, since I don't really have things set up to really set up the room, I just plopped them down and plugged them in and it was everything I wanted. The price I got was in the low $5k for the almost new speakers but it is definitely my endgame speaker so there's that. The other problem is that it made me acutely aware of my electronics so I've spent money switching to tubes and fine tuning a DAC and then spending stupid money (for me -- I buy almost everything used and try to keep it reasonable) on cables and connects. That is because you can hear everything. 

The neat thing is that it sounds great from my normal work listening position but the magic happens if I sit about 2 or 3 feet away from these speakers. Depending on the quality of the recording, you cannot tell that sound is coming from the speakers and there is an image projected in front of you. 

The different speakers they have also influence the amp. The X5s and the X3s have a powered woofer so they are extremely easy to drive and you can use a very low powered SET amp or a higher powered amp. The X4s have a passive woofer that still are fairly efficient but need more power to bring it out. There's also an M4 which has a different tweeter but is far less expensive. I've seen some of Spatial Audio Lab speakers being sold used from time to time so you can check the used markets if you have any interest. 

So that's my deal. Having said that, let me also second much of what others have told you. The quality of the recordings are going to really impact how well the sound is. Also, since the sound is bouncing off the back wall, you are going to have deal with the out of phase, bass canceling bounce back and room treatments or just moving the speakers may help a lot. The Maggies are power hungry animals and the electronics may really bring out more of that sweet sound and even give you significantly more bass. 

@flasd

my condolences on your loss

music, good music, has been very important to my own coping with many of the pressures and vagaries of living life -- hope it offers the same essential solace for you

back to the hifi question you posed... please do what johnny rutan suggests -- much of your sonic issues may well stem from the preamp impedance mismatch

stay well, stay level, and enjoy the music

There is no alternative.

OP was asking for Maggie alternative. Obviously, building a great system means everything works synergistically—being an audiophile beginning on my journey into this hobby—I’ll trust what you say about preamp impedance matching. I was trying to offer an alternative loudspeaker design option that would work in his room. I believe the loudspeakers are the most critical piece in the puzzle in creating a great system…

rnl997

 What part of this do you not understend?

 With his system, the way it is tube preamp running into a 10 K load kills the extremes.

The same issue will; happen even with different speakers. 

that's why I told him to expose the issue by taking the Bluesound node directly into the amp bypassing the tube preamp.

Cheers

JohnnyR

First off, my condolences for your loss—this is a great hobby—but your family comes first…

Many great thoughts posted thus far but since you seem married to this room, let me suggest a loudspeaker option that could work and falls in your budget.  The Ohm 1000 Tall is a hybrid omnidirectional loudspeaker that should work with your present gear. They like being placed close to your front wall/corners. Should also benefit from your REL subs with some care in placing these subs in your room.

I have owned the Ohm F5’s now for almost one year now and find them to be the best loudspeaker in my room by a long shot.  Ohm’s will energize your room like nothing you have ever experienced. Great company in Brooklyn with a very generous return policy if you don’t like them…

Good luck with the journey…

Been a very rough couple of days, especially the last day and a half, Mother In Law just passed away this morning around 2:00 am, So I won’t be able to get back to the discussion for several days.

Thank you all for understanding and will try to return shortly.

Please keep the suggestions coming…been trying to juggle things along with all that’s been going on with this post as a little escape from what’s been happening and please don’t think I’ve abandoned the discussion or your comments & recommendations.

🔊

Grossman616, dont forget the amp but what you say keep them!

I would consider switching to a more relaxed sounding speaker. Some would say a musical speaker. The music I like never sounds edgy, so I tend to enjoy that sound ProAc speakers with the dome tweeter, haven't heard the ribbon tweeters but have never heard one I liked. Get a monitor so you will eliminate the cabinet resonance to the greatest degree possible, They will sound very clean and more like your Maggies. 

Crickets 

If a low input impedance in the power amp is the problem, there are four tube pre-amps which will drive a load as low as even 600 ohms: two from Atma-Sphere, and two from EAR-Yoshino. EAR's Tim de Paravicini did a lot of work in recording studios, where 600 ohms is the rule, not the exception.

Magnepan with tubes :( 

Problem with system interface!

the amp has a10 k input impedance 

tube pre amps are not at their best here

Get a real amp with a friendly 100 k input impedance 

or get a matching pre amp for your solid state amp

in the meanwhile take the Bluesound directly into the amps rca inputs and be sure to activate the nodes volume control.

just to test please respond asap

JohnnyR

Magnepan dealer

NJ

lots of good comments here, valuable reading not just for the op, but for many having or interested in the smaller maggies

key points:

-- room appropriateness and setup for any speaker choice is always critical - the dipole maggies illustrate this in spades

-- subs are needed for little maggies and many work well, despite wendell saying they don’t (god bless wendell but he is salesman and he is trying to sell his new bass panels lol!)

-- maggies are very very revealing, and like any truly hi-rez transducer, the resolution can be a dual edged sword -- poor recordings are revealed to their full extent

kingbarbuda

479 posts

09-17-2022 at 11:21pm 

@mschott I think this narrative about Maggies not integrating well with subs is a myth

Truest thing ever posted here.

Work up stream from preamp. A-B dacs streaming serivices they very greatly in resolving on type, sample rate.format all play math in a peculiar way.

No two r the same in the sweat spot point, equilateral triangle in front of your Maggie’s.

Or if material you listen to is on CD or DSD. Buy a cd/DSD spinner which is a dac

Lastly, If you still have all the vinyl collection and your turntable, convert the library to various hires formats on pc/Mac you probably can find an a/d converter then stream library from networked drive from that.although that rabbit trail extends Another six months and $$$ to short to ground variable.

Or just work the preamp upstream angle. If you listen to piano reel piano, my experiences difficult at best to beat vinyl OR well recorded CD/DSD . But I recorded a lot of piano and analog so my opinion is skewed.

digital done well . It’s Not perfect but nice to play ability from your sofa.

Most of the time my .7 Maggi’s sound fantastic, just a little finicky.

I know my room is smaller than I would like, but unfortunately this is the room I have to work with. I certainly understand the “bloom effect”.

My (2) REL T5x Subs blend beautifully, they’re fast, musical and appropriately sized & placed for the room. The Maggi’s are 3’ out from rear walls & 2’ from side walls, spread is 6-3/4’ apart, After hours of listening and adjusting, I’ve tried them both ways and have opted on having them towed in with Tweeters on outer edge so every seat on the sofa is a sweet spot. Played a lot with placement as well as researched a lot on their nuances and I get it, but have to work within the constraints thrown at me. 

Think I’m going to try running the Blusound Node’s output to a better DAC… Being I mostly listened to vinyl prior, pretty sure it really wasn’t as profound an issue till I started streaming. I’ll be researching the speaker suggestions and trying to figure out how and where and I can audition.  All comments are read and appreciated. Keep those suggestions coming.

Thanks

Your room is the obvious limiting factor, with both size & dimension issues.  A smaller Maggie might improve the situation, but not likely to cure it.

The safest approach is switching to nearfield monitors.  You've already got the subs, so they don't need to go deep.

If you live near Boston, are feeling lucky (or just experimental) and want to remain out-of-the-box(-speaker), I see there is a pair of used Linkwitz LxMini dipole speakers available online (check hifishark).  Warning - guaranteed negative Spouse Acceptance factor, unless they have a quirky sense of humor!  I haven't heard this design, but his larger speakers are spectacular.  The smaller form factor here probably works better nearfield.

I don't respond often on the forum here but thought I would try and help.

I brought home a demo pair of .7s for a 3-day trial. They sounded great and I decided tto order a pair from the dealer. I had the dealer hold onto them for 3 weeks after they were delivered. Since I live in an apartment they could break them in for me. Got em home and the first week was nothing much to write home about. They were just ho-hum. Didn't understand why the demo pair sounded so good and but the ones I brought home sucked. Thought maybe they weren't broken in completely. So, they were bound and gagged with several layer of blankets and comforters and taped tightly. I then ran them at high levels of pink, white, and brown noise and played music through them during the day. Signal was being pumped through them 24/7. They were being thrashed at around 80 watts of steady conditioning noise according to the meters on my power amp. Listened again after the 10 days so I could get a better read on them. Bass was better. Highs were better but they just didn't invite me in. Nothing compelling about them at all. My son lent me his REL T/5 subwoofer. His is the original, around 7-years old. It was immediately apparent the sub added much needed extension on both the lows and highs, rounded out the imaging so much more, and added much needed presence while expanding the soundstage. But, they still seem like they need a measure of clarity and speed to get them where I think they should be.

Still, I was impressed enough that I bought a new REL T/5x. It will be arriving around 9/20 or so. I will break it in per REL instructions and should have it in place next weekend to change out my son's T/5 starting with identical settings. Stay tuned to see what that brings. Since the T/5x is the third generation of this sub, there are many improvements over the original, according to REL.

Also to add, a life-long friend of mine has a room with similar dimensions. He is absolutely thrilled with his Magnepan LRS (original versions) using a REL T/Zero running them with a Willsenton R8 integrated tube amp. He has it running in the triode mode exclusively with only 25 WPC. Possible the .7 Maggie's may be too much for the size of your room? The room I am using the .7s in measures 24'x13'.

I'll post my impressions of the new T/5x sometime next weekend. Check back here later.

Cheers.

I have had Eminent Technology LFT-VII(a) upgraded to (b) and thanks to your question will be up grading to (c) shortly, for better than twenty years. I am still extremely happy. One of the best deals ever. Why they are not more popular? Remember, audio is only half the battle, marketing is the other. Next time you read a review take note of the prominent full page ad that happens to be published in the same issue. It is a business after all.

Hello flasd!  The Maggies are telling you the truth. If the music sounds bad, it's because the music was badly recorded. Although dynamics are a bit compressed with Maggies, the details are what they are famous for. I'm on my third set of Maggies and a friend brought over his favorite CD. It sounded terrible. Genuinely unlistenable. It was a "rock" recording of a famous band. We were shocked! I immediately played some known good music and it was fine. Bad recordings will sound bad on really good systems. Be proud of those Maggies and get  few well regarded CDs as "proof."  Happy Listening.

I am very acquainted with Maggies as an owner (MG3s, similar to today’s 3.7i) and a retailer. As others have said your room is too small to adequately play any Magnepan model. Get some direct radiators with 6.5 or 7” bass/ midranges on stands. People enthuse about Philharmonic Audio BMR monitors. Other options abound. Also, get a Wellfleet stylus and keep the Moonstone around for yard sale records. Your electronics seem to be solid.