To the folks that suggested an ethernet filter, thanks a bunch. I bought the smooth Lan filter from Stack Audio. It arrived today. I have had this system in the configuration it is in now for over two years. So, I am very certain I know exactly how it sounds. I put the Stack Audio filter in and played Lyle Lovett's The Boys From North Dakota, The background was significantly quieter, thusly better detail. So far, I am liking it quite a bit. I have been listening to it for less than an hour. I just wanted to post this for the folks that gave tips/advice, thanks, Allen.
Looking for a true upgrade in sound quality
I currently stream Qobuz and Tidal through my Lumin T2. I have had this about 4 years. I have AT&T fiber optic internet to the house the ethernet cable direct to the Lumin. About 30' of cable from the router to the device. I was thinking of using the Lumin only as a streamer and adding a conceivably better DAC. Is this a legit way to go about a more resolving sound. To my ears there is a slight veil over everything and maybe a little etched overall, bass response is great. I was also hoping for a recommendation for the DAC if this is a good option. $6,000 budget new or used is fine. I have had very good luck with used equipment over the years. Thanks, Allen.
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I have been investigating SS DAC's for quite a period of time and until yesterday had not discovered one used on systems that I am familiar with that has caught my attention like the way a Denafrip Venus II had yesterday at a Bake Off between DAC's and CDP's. SS DAC's and Valve CDP's were used as comparisons. I am / have been familiarised over time with all models in use, and these were attached to a New Design 3 Watt Output Tetrode Pre Amp - Tetrode -Pentode Power Amp, with a Speaker unfamiliar to me, with reasonable High Efficiency. The Venus II has had FW Updates. In the past the Venus with out a FW update was OK but a big ?mark being present over how long it could be lived with used for extended length replays beyond comparison periods of time allocated. Yesterday in this system and a follow up Amp in use, a PP 300b, the Venus II proved itself to be a very attractive SS DAC, especially one I would consider experiencing for much longer periods of time in the home system. The Denafrips Venus II was used in comparison to other Digital Sources costing up to £6K |
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+1 @soix , assuming a transparent enough audio chain and hearing capability to match Agree that the OP should try a filter first, then new DAC, then maybe streamer upgrade. some DAC s with very favorable reviews:
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This does not sound a whole lot like an issue with the digital front end or your Lumin (that threw a veil). For starters, try plugging in your dac analog out into the different inputs of the Modwright amp, swap inputs with whatever you had your TT plugged into, etc. Are you real sure that your TT isn’t sounding a bit veiled too dude? Are your ears being a lil extra forgiving there with the TT for some reason? Eitherway...the confoundance here is that a TT/phono stage plugged into the same flaky hybrid amp sounding fine is not a full guarantee that your amp has no issues (source output V being a lil different). It is generally a good idea for any audiophile to have an extra pair of speakers, an extra amp, dacs, etc sitting around in storage to swap/identify/diagnose things easier by process of elimination. If you don’t, borrow/swap a SS amp (with no tubes in it whatsoever this time) from another guy in town and determine if it is a Modwright or a flaky Modwrong. I bet the Modwrong didn’t give you a input trim feature either.
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Backwash ++1 Soix, EVERYTHING matters If you are on the DAC upgrade path, I doubt you could do better than a Denafrips Terminator Plus DAC (NOT the Terminator II as the Plus is a large upgrade). There is one right now used for $4,900 on US Audio Mart, which has a list price of $7,600. It is a little over 2 years old, so the model has many of the latest upgrades....and the firmware is upgradeable via a flash. Also the unit has a 3 year fully transferrable warranty, so has a little under a year left on the warranty If I had the money, and the DAC was my next upgrade, I would buy that unit (and I am a long time Denafrips owner of several of their products) |
At Deer Creek Audio we believe Dirac Live calibration is one of the most powerful ways to gain dimension and accuracy in both the time and frequency domains. Having performed Dirac calibrations on many high-end systems we have found than there are fundamental systems issue about 30% of the time. So we always validate the systems before proceeding. In any case we recommend getting back to the basics and verifying the following:
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Agreed. Roon is very good for tweaking sound because of its DSP capabilities. However you have to have a fairly powerful server for some of the DSP, depending on what you want to do. Roon is also great because it allows for a thin, non-high powered endpoint (streamer) to be used such that any heavy processing is done on the server, which can be in another room, so no ambient noise and limits theoretical concerns about any electrical aspect of the streamer (if you buy into that).
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@jji666 Classic denial. And yeah, there are tons of people here who agree with me. The vast, vast majority of very experienced audiophiles here have achieved significant improvements with upgraded network switches/cables and streamers because everything matters when it comes to streaming and matters a lot, so make no mistake that you are in the extreme minority here when you say they have no sound and it is critical that the newbies also understand that. |
They don’t have a sound. I did add more to my statement in a later post that explained that what I was referring to was that it is pointless to try to match to specific analog gear in the sense of "my system is cold, I need more warmth" like one might do when adding tubes to a system. The pure streamer won’t do that. A DAC might. But I will stick with the bare statement here if you would like me to. That way you can have a bigger target for your ad hominem. You may have others who agree here, but your statements are contrary to the knowledge of a massive majority of network engineers, physicists, and other scientists, etc. But what’s critical is simply that newbies understand that there is substantial disagreement with network tweaks, and more importantly that even if some believe in their effect, the priority is well below that of any core component in the system. When someone is shopping for their first outboard DAC (my assumption) it makes sense to suggest good DACs...not an off the shelf switch that has been put in a platinum case with a linear power supply. And I’ll repeat - I have used many switches, routers, and network cables. So please don’t tell me I don’t listen. Edit/PS: I am not an ASR guy. I do believe components can have different sounds. But I do not apply analog logic to the digital end. It's just different. But moreover I disagree with those who take a simple newbie question about DACs as an opportunity to go straight to network tweaks. |
@jji666 No, in that other thread you literally said word for word that streamers have no sound just like you did about switches and network cables here. I’ll go find it and copy it here if needed. If you wanna walk that back somehow, fine, but you absolutely said that streamers have no sound so don’t try to say otherwise. |
Why the name calling and assumptions? I've used hundreds of network cables, dozens of switches and routers. What I said about streamers was that they weren't something to "match" with analog components as tone controls - i.e. to add warmth to a cold system type of thing, and that matching a DAC was the better bet to "mate" with that OP's gear, as that OP asked (different thread). This OP asked if there might be a sound improvement from using an outboard DAC versus what's built into his streamer. I think there might be and would well prioritize that over questionable network tweaks. My suggestion is to focus budget on a core component like a DAC. |
@jji666 Many people who understand networking refuse to just use their ears because they’ve convinced themselves something can’t possibly make a difference. You’ve also said streamers have no sound so let’s consider the source here. It’s fine to be skeptical, but dismissing something without hearing it is arrogant and ignorant — but it’s a lot easier, I’ll give you that. |
If you are serious about streaming, I would consider investing in Ansuz Acoustics Power switches. I tried first Silent Angel Bonn N8 and English Electric 8Switch switches (with Supra CAT 8+ ETHERNET cables) and while the improvement was there it was marginal. And then I got Ansuz PowerSwitch A2 and Oh My God! The difference in sound quality was just shocking! I stream music in four different places and in each case, it was like replacing a sound system with a much better one. Even the cheapo system in my exercise room sounded perfectly musical and satisfying. If I were to start again, I would spend more money on Ansuz PowerSwitch and save on the rest of the system. The biggest one piece of equipment improvement I have ever experienced. Who knew that cleaning up the noise on the Ethernet line could go that far! |
As others mentioned, particularly in your situation the first thing I’d do is try a filter before your Lumin. This SmoothLAN filter has been getting pretty rave reviews on another thread here, and at $254 with a trial period I’d consider this an absolute no brainer to try. After that and if still looking for further improvements I’d try a Lampizator DAC although there are many other outstanding choices at your budget from Bricasti, Weiss, T+A, Meitner, etc. that would all likely provide a significant and very meaningful upgrade to the DAC in your Lumin. Hope this helps, and best of luck. |
Allen @backwash You have a very nice and capable DAC in T2 and rest of the system. As @baylinor and I suggested, install a passive filter ahead of T2 and you should hear noticeable improvement with streaming. I have a DAC that uses ESS Sabre Chips; nothing but very natural, refine, wide and deep soundstage. I also am using a very high quality Ethernet switch ahead of DAC + Streamer so that helps tremendously. |
The rest of my system is pretty decent. It consists of a Modwright KWH 225I integrated, Tyler Acoustic Woodmere II speakers, an OPPO 105 for disks, Panasonic SP 10 TT with Dynavector SUT and Ortofon MC10 cart. All synergistic Reasearch Tessla apex cabling. Stereo Rythmic F12 subs. Room is lightly treated with GIC bass traps in front corners and some homemade absorption at first reflection points. The veiled portion of the sound is in the mid to upper midrange. Thanks, Allen. |
I don't have enough $ to recommend a nice DAC but I hear lots of talk about Laiv, Holo Audio and others, tubes or no tubes. for example. Sure, the signal comes from a cheap box somewhere but once you get the sinal in your house you need good solid connections and I use contact enhancer. Sometimes the connections can oxidized otherwise. Noise filters and a power conditioner helped as well. I am assuming you have updated power cords. I also isolated each piece. You can spend as much as you want on filters, etc. A separate DAC is not a waste either.
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The differences between modern DACs are small but audible. I've tried a number of different DACs including the PS Audio Directstream MKII, Berkeley Ref2, Denafrips Pontus, Gustard R26 and several others but the very best sound I've ever gotten has been from the Holo May KTE. You should be able to buy one used for about $4500. But it is probably wishful thinking to expect that to give you a BIG improvement in sound quality. Speakers, room treatments, and potentially cords and cables might all have a more noticeable impact. |
Well, a different DAC would change the sound, but so would a different ethernet cable, or a different digital cable, or different interconnects and power cables. Everything makes a difference and will change the sound to varying degrees. All you can do is try different combinations of things until you find the sound that you're searching for. |
Can you outline the rest of your system? The issues you are having could be with the preamp and amp as well. I had etch in my system and much of it was caused by the preamp section of my integrated amp. And at higher volumes, the amp itself, and even the speaker cables to a smaller degree. Tell us more. |
Veiled and etched seem to be mutually exclusive to me. Sounds like you want something more resolving but smooth. I have a Hermes DDC running into a Pontus II 12th Ann. that I like very much. It’s definitely smooth and pretty resolving. I’ve not heard many other DACs and none above this price point, which is about half what your budget is. You might like the Terminator. |
Remember that 'fiber' is only local. Actual path to the streaming cloud goes via multiple paths, electric, fiber, satellite, hundreds of switches and routers. Data comes out of order and reassembled locally. There is no actual "stream" between your unit and Tidal cloud. In fact, it is not even Tidal, datacenter is probably a stack of cheap boxes rented from a Google farm. |
When I was experiencing some “etched sound” when doing a long run of Ethernet direct to my streamer I tried Small Green Computers Fiber Media Converter (FMC) bundle found here. I also inquired the Audiogon community about Network Acoustics Eno Streaming System which can be found here. Due to my positive experience with the FMC bundle, I went further with an OpticalModule Deluxe with linear power supply (this is FMC) to a OpticalRendu with linear power supply (this is a streamer) which is offered by Small Green Computer. Essentially it looks like this: TRENDnet Switch (above) > Pangea Premier Ethernet > Sonore opticalModule Deluxe w/ LPS & Finisar SFP 1324P2BTL > FS LC UPC to LC UPC OM1 (62.5/125) Multimode Fiber Optical Cable (15’) > Sonore opticalRendu & Finisar 1324 w/ Sonore LPS > Supra Excalibur USB 1 meter > TEAC NT-505 If I could do it over again, I’d love to try the Eno out of simplicity - I also like how it’s passive and doesn’t need an LPS. I of course say all of the above, but who knows if your etched sound would be addressed by any of the suggestions provided. Too many variables within each of our systems. Food for thought nonetheless. |
