Real friends don't let their friends drink Boone's Farm.
Lay Off the Newbies!
I always try to keep my posts constructive, but there is something that regularly goes on here that I think is detrimental to our hobby - A newbie has a simple question and a bunch of neurotic geezers (of which I include myself) jump on the guy with a million rules and rituals he must follow to achieve his goal, which ends up discouraging the guy right out of hobby. There was one analog thread on static where I recommended Gruv Glide and you geezers started in with so much BS- humidifiers, move to another climate, expensive gimmicks, etc, that GG would kill him and his records. The end result? By the end of the thread, he sold his analog rig because he couldn't deal with the stress. In a recent digital thread, you guys are recommending a newbie buy 20 year old transports. All this does is just make newbies so stressed out that you'll drive them to MP3s. Newbies need simple answers, commensurate with their experience level. Buy a Rega table, screw in a Rega cartridge and play records. They have plenty of time to turn into us. Somehow we survived, listening to our Sansui receivers and JBL L-100s in bedrooms thick with pot smoke and spilled Boone's Farm. And we made it. Sometimes I'm amazed as well. Let the young have fun while they can. Be well.
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I was a newbie about 18 months ago, and I would have appreciated your post back then. One reason I stuck it out on the forum was that there was a good mixture of sound advice which took a sympathetic approach. By sorting out who the jokers were and who the helpful were, I managed to learn who to listen to. Then, I would just wait for their advice. Who were the "helpful"? Those who responded to my OP that: (a) heard what I was asking and addressed it, specifically; (b) made suggestions in line with my budget; (c) justified any suggestions which were pushing me further (in budget or in gear) and explained a bigger picture as to why it might make sense down the road, and (d) asked me follow up questions. To the best respondents on a thread, I reached out by private message to thank them, and told them a bit about who I am. In some cases, now, we email instead of use the forum. Caveat emptor is a good approach to fora, but once you get good advice, thank people personally for it. They deserve the thanks and it solidifies the online connection. P.S. The hardest part about a forum is that some people are both helpful and jokers, depending on mood. The online world simply unshackles some folks from taking serious questions seriously. All of a sudden, they're at the back of a middle school school bus, cracking wise! |
To be clear, I'm not saying that any of the suggestions offered by the more experienced members are wrong per se. But they are wrong for a newbie. Imagine telling a 10 year old child everything that could happen to them at the beach. Kidnapping, sharks, jellyfish, riptides and so on. It's all true, but that's not how you do it in the beginning. Help them build a solid knowledge base and let them enjoy. |
OP I started posting 4-5 years ago under oldhvymec. I was on AG 20 plus years ago and forgot my call sign. Honest to god newbies deserve consideration. I love the new fellows that post the questions and the answer in a 4 page header and ALL CAPS. Then tells you he was drunk or drank a bottle of something.. Potheads included, they tend to be a little more paranoid though. I like it when every other word is spelled wrong, NO caps, a single blur from beginning to end and full of "u" and "4u" and all the lazy crap that goes with being a lazy a$$, THEN a big fat period.. I LOVE it when they log on under audio2design, and 30 other names just to be an A$$ an tell everyone how they are wrong. I really get in happy land when a newbie tells a guy with a good solid answer, has done and given the same sound advise over and over again and the newbie says "but my zillion dollar this and my zillion dollar that, and my zillion dollar friend, told me not to buy the 4.00 usd one (that works) it has to cost at least a 1/2 zillion dollars, if you don’t mind would you mind your OWN business, I’M to busy trying to impress people with the KA-zillion dollars I wasted.. YEA honest to god newbies deserve consideration. BUT HAND TO GOD some DON’T.. Regards |
I really wasn’t talking about people who are just nasty or pot-stirrers. I was talking about experienced well-meaning audiophiles who just overload newbies with too much info. For example, one guy with a Rega table was asking about a cartridge and they’re telling him not to use the Exact, but get something else, but you have to shim the back of the arm and buy an alignment gauge and how Rega’s alignment was bullshit. They may be right, but not for a newbie. Slap in your 3-point Rega cartridge and enjoy. Believe me, it won’t explode. And this also refers to newbies who are genuinely seeking guidance. Not the type @oldhvymec mentioned. They are beyond help. |
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@ oldhvymec Are you kiddin' ? This is your answer to a recent post! https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/decware-zsb-please-help |
No it's not, read what he said, he has NO SWITCH, he want’s to ADD one. LOL I'll bet you don't stop at stop signs or use a turn signal either. :-) This is a great example right here. READ what I said. HE has the box and he has to draw the schemo. WE (that me) can’t get it.. I don’t or can’t copy from what I don’t have. A picture inside the box would have even helped. "good solder skills" now good drawing skills and post the schemo, I’LL DRAW THE LINES and add the switch. I liked the knife edge for an A/B switch.. Did YOU read the post? REALLY? Semi regards at this point.. 6 out of 10.. we’ll see.. |
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Here is my take. . . When a newbie naively asks "What is the best ___ (insert component)?", it seems to me that the most helpful response would be one that encourages the newbie to trust his/her own ears, because ultimately what matters is what sounds good to them-- not to the rest of us! However this rarely seems to hapen. Most often, they are inundated with suggestions from posters who are passionate fans of X or Y brand, which may or may not sound good to the OP, which the OP may or may not be able to afford or even demo for themselves. Even worse, an OP asks about X and very quickly, the focus is changed to Y. Even worse, in my view, are those who constantly respond with denegrating remarks-- "wire is wire"-- "bits are bits" -- "digital is crap"-- which is all about their egotistic drive to prove they are somehow superior. The impact of these polemics upon newbies is hardly likely to be positive. It would be most useful to newbies if we all checked our egos before responding. |
I used to be a regular on a Bodybuilding forum. When newbies come to ask the most basic questions and ask if their kitchen table or bar stool, crate, is good enough to do bench press with their 30 pound dumbells, I would always steer them in a positive direction. Of course I could have given them a list of must haves that they just couldn't live without, but newbies need encouragement at this stage. You use their budget and work with it. Note what excited them enough to get into weight training and let them flourish with that. It would be sad to dampen their enthusiasm from the start. It is sometimes better to do things not perfectly and be happy than being discouraged and know perfection is out of reach. If they fall in love with the sport/hobby, then they can move forward more. Not everyone's a teacher though. |
@cissado: Yes! Great post! @david_ten: That learning necessarily involves difficulty is a given. . . in every aspect of life! Just because difficulties cannot be avoided does not mean one must always learn "the hard way". It is possible, in many situations, to gain knowledge without taking the most difficult path. The road may be rocky and washed out in places, but if one can help steer a newbie in such a way that they avoid falling off th eedge and into a deep gorge, I'd advocate doing that. Saying "well, they're gonna have to take some hard knocks, anway-- leave 'em be" is devoid of compassion, to say the least. cissado did an excellent job of describing what I advocate-- I don't believe I can improve upon his post. |
A while back, I suggested that Audiogon have a FAQ category so that newbies could be directed there to thoughtful and well composed replies rather than get some of the short or snarky answers to their newbie questions, the kinds of answers being lamented here. If I recall correctly, that idea got some credit but enough short/snarky answers that it made me regret starting it. Nevertheless, I also sent it to the forum managers. Who knows? Maybe that will happen someday. |
stuartk"Just because difficulties cannot be avoided does not mean one must always learn "the hard way". It is possible, in many situations, to gain knowledge without taking the most difficult path. The road may be rocky and washed out in places, but if one can help steer a newbie in such a way that they avoid falling falling off th eedge and into a deep gorge, I'd advocate doing that." Wow you should start you're own religion and use that as part of your Bible you are obviously a person of deep faith, caring, and belief good for you don't let anyone stop you from preaching the Goodness of Truth and Caring!! |
"If you want a serious answer, then ask a serious question. People on this forum truly try to be helpful, but sometimes the OP should do some research before posting". Many try, yes. Others appear consistently more interested in pushing their personal agendas. And while I agree that's it's difficult to help someone when they can't seem to clearly state what it is they need help with, it doesn't hurt to keep in mind that such people may be hampered by the fact that they simply "don't know what they don't know". I don't think it's necessarily accurate or fair to assume that someone who is ignorant is not "serious". You speak of "research" as though audio is a field characterized by great concensus. It seems to me far more likely that many beginner's attempts to gain some sort of reliable foundation or foothold will lead them to conclude that this hobby is rife with claims, counter-claims, arguments, contradictions, inconsistencies and unknowns. hilde45's suggestion that an FAQ category for beginners be created might be a way to sidestep some of the controversy and static. If such a resource were to be established, then newbies could be directed to it, straightaway, without trying anyone's patience or triggering a bunch of responses that fly way over the OP's head. |
It seems to me far more likely that many beginner's attempts to gain some sort of reliable foundation or foothold will lead them to conclude that this hobby is rife with claims, counter-claims, arguments, contradictions, inconsistencies and unknowns.But that is what it is. If you want a firm foundation in the electro/acoustics of music reproduction then reading a few books is a better source than an internet forum. |
Thank you so much for this. I've been lurking in the shadows of this site but never joined specifically because of that, I'm afraid to ask a question. I signed up right after reading this just so I could post this. Thank you
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Welcome to AGon.. It can be a lot of fun, They unlock me twice a day.. :-) Regards |
@onhwy61: "But that is what it is. If you want a firm foundation in the electro/acoustics of music reproduction then reading a few books is a better source than an internet forum". No doubt. To clarify, I was thinking of a "common sense foundation" rather than a deep dive into physics, which could prove highly intimidating-- general guidelines for the person who is curious about experiencing better than mid-fi but unsure how to get started. |
WOW! I agree with the Original post! too bad us Folks can't just give a Good Clear Concise REPLY! as with this string Everybody is All Over the Board.. to be Honest, it would be Nice for a Newbie to get a General Recommendation, not so many "Hey I Got The Most Expensive/Name Dropping and then acting Real Technical about Everything for or to the Newbie.. Sorta Sad when they just want a basic answer.. I suppose?? |
Like liamowen Posted.. "Plug my Apheta 2 into my Rega RP10 and listen to records. Has worked for several years now..." - I Guess He Wants Everybody to Know Exactly what that all is? especially a Newbie??" Like me saying: "My JA200 is great with my Coherence PreAmp tied into my AE Reference and Signature Speakers and my Kimber Cables especially if I use my Altis Transport and my New DAC since the older was a lower sampling rate.." which the JA is a Jadis.. AND Point is! We just want help Sometimes w/o having to Google the Gear and saying "Oh, Wow! look at what he has and how much Money he spent.." |
I am new. Had a long hiatus and now able to get back to my beloved hobby. Its a different world. There are not 5 stereo stores with in 10 minutes of me like there used to be. I am not lucky enough to have really reliable local dealers. So I watch you tube reviews and come to forums like this. I do appreciate the advice, noble has been particularly helpful. I am a major jokester however, I will admit sometimes it is exhausting having to go thru 2 to 3 pages to get your answers. I do get the answers and the experience and advice you in-part is priceless…so thank you! |
Don't you wish you still had your vintage JBL L-100s or were still a newbie yourself? The original L-100s were some great speakers for fledgling audiophiles. I can't remember if mine had the orange or blue cubed grills. Newbies, please pardon the nostalgia. You're always welcome here, by most of us anyway. Mike |
Classic: https://youtu.be/DvswW6M7bMo |
What is wrong with a newbie starting their “research “ here? What are the alternatives? Equipment magazines tend to be aimed at the true believers, not at entry level curious. If the newbie wants vinyl then after reading Stereophile they might think they need to spend $200K after reading Fremer. Magazines also tend to reflect the biases of their advertisers. The best thing is for a newbie to throw mud at a wall in a site like this, get a variety of opinions, see what opinions make sense to them, and go from there. With the loss of stores, the chances of a demo of anything are slim and so the opinions of others are now increasingly important |
