kudos to Raul! +1 - analog system performance relies on all pieces, thus there could be bigger setup problems than cartridge. 

Inna, buying expensive cartridge, with hope it will open analog experience horizon, is the same as buying Ferrari to use it as commuter for everyday shopping, work, etc.. Ferrari driving experience will be framed by road condition, traffic, fear of getting scratches etc. If you like to make you feel good and you have money to spend - go ahead and buy $10k+ cart! You will find nice looking magazines with pictures and reviews, you also will finance with your purchase! Buying Rolex will not deliver more accurate time info comparing to simpler watch! Analog sound magic start with musician’s creation, then it is amplified with recording studio work, and finally is pressed into vinyl. Vinyl press is never checked with ultra-expensive TTs+carts, most 80..90s vinyls were tested using Audio-Technica/Ortofon professional grade MMs. 

This is a wonderful discussion.  I love all the ideas and perspectives.  Like many of you, I have a lot of cartridges.  $50, $500, $3000, $5000, and $10,000 ones. My favorite ones are an Ortofon 2M SE Mono (the mono version of the Black), and a SoundSmith Hyperion MkII.  Why do I like the SE mono better than other mono mc ones costing 5-10x more?  I dunno.  Why do I like the Hyperion better than my Winfeld (previous favorite) or the Atlas.  I dunno.  These are not rational preferences.  But I know what I like.  And although I agree with Raul that our standard should be live music, it is not easy to do an A-B against live music is it?  So, what I use as a standard is DSD, which is measurably more accurate than any analog system.  I know this to be true.  Why do I like to listen to my records and my less perfect analog cartridges, arms, turntables, phonostages and so on better?  I dunno.  But I know what I like.

I cannot comment on $10K cartridges since I do not own one. I think the most expensive cartridge I have is an Ortofon Verismo at $6K. But I am a hobbyist of modest means, and to be frank, the cartridges I own are usually bought carefully from the pre-owned market and sent to a service company for refurbishment. I prefer Expert Stylus or Allclear, but in the past have used Andy Kim, Soundsmith, and VAS. It is my opinion that a good tech can fit a new diamond to the cantilever, clean it, and adjust the suspension to where the cartridge is performing optimally. In the past a suspension could harden up or get spongy and render a cartridge unusable, but modern materials appear to have eliminated that issue. If I was limited to new cartridges I would not buy anything over $2K. 

But what I have noticed is that cartridge and phono stage pairings offer more variability and synergy than almost anything else in hi fi. Yes we talk about speaker and room compatibility, and to a lesser extent amplifier and speaker pairings and how fundamentally different the sound is. Transducers is what is important! A cartridge is a transducer. 

This morning I moved my Verismo/Schroder pairing off a BMC MCCI Signature ULN phono stage onto a Musical Fidelity Nu Vinyl and gave it a listen. I did indeed have to use a set of Nuetrik XLR to RCA adapters, not ideal but the only practical way to do this. The sound is fundamentally different, to the point where you are listening to a different vinyl experience. Richer, more textured, and introspective is what I hear. It is difficult to say which I prefer because it is fundamentally different. There is as much variance at this step as there is in the cartridges we have available. 

I sometimes wonder if having multiples of analog stuff is really the best use of my hobby money. I feel that I could easily live with my Sota Cosmos Eclipse/Origin Live Agile/Transfiguration Proteus into an Esoteric E-03. I should buy another Proteus and have it rebuilt for back up and call it good. But then again, this is a hobby....

+1 Transfiguration Proteus rebuilt.

I think more importantly than simply the value difference of going from $5000-$10,000 is the design and the brand. Speaking retail, I have a $3200 Kiseki Purple Heart and went to a $5500 Koetsu rosewood signature. I preferred the Kiseki. I haven’t experimented a lot but I suspect once you find a mfg that you like then climb their ladder.  I tried another $5000 cartridge, the Soundsmith Sussuro MkIi ES and I did not care for that or the support they provided. 

Kiseki Purple Heart is highly thought of cartridge among those in the know. Beyond my reach, or the capability of my phono stage.

I started out with a Pickering in a Garard when I was in high school. That was $50.

I moved up to a Stanton on a Dual 1229 in college.

Next was a Koetsu on a Sumiko MMT on a VPI HW MK II. This retailed at the time for about $900 at the time I believe.

I bought a Benz Micro as an alternate and back up. About $800. I’m selling it if anyone is interested.

I believed in the law of diminishing returns and thought that was it. But I was gifted a Koetsu Onyx, and that was a big jump. That’s $9,900 retail.

I bought a rosewood signature second hand for $1,100.00 as a backup. Very silky, not as much oomph on the bottom, great for solo and concerto classical. 

I bought a Koetsu Leopard. $11,000 retail. I paid nowhere near that. It sounds different from the Onyx. It does the bottom end better than the onyx, and it has more of an excitingly dynamic sound. The Onyx does most everything else better, it’s a smoother more natural sound.

So the answer is, overall, yes.

The answer is yes but usually with a highly transparent audio chain. 

$30k table, $15k arm, $25k phono stage and you may be ready for $10k cartridge. Or perhaps it is $40k table and $10k arm. Whatever. And don't forget about tonearm cable, it is the most important cable in the entire chain. Oh, and motor controller for the table. That would be excellent though still not top of the line analogue front end.

OP,

I agree that this proportion, in general, makes the most sense.

That is about what I have and am waiting to for the right time to make the jump.

However, a couple of my friends have put a $12K cartridge on a ~ $10K table / arm and ~$10K phono stage. The difference was very amazing... of course they had very high quality speakers / preamp / amp. So, it is just like the rest of high end audio... there are rules of thumb that sometimes can be broken.

In general, I have found if you have all really great components... sometimes you can drop in something of much greater or lessor value and the outcome is surprisingly good. But I wouldn’t build systems like this. You always want to put the odds on your side.

ghdprentice, of course.

I once put $2k power cord on $1k integrated amp and it was much better compared to $500 power cord, let alone $100 power cord.

Conversely, I evaluated 6 different power cords providing power to the bias supplies of my Sound Lab ESLs.  I did not expect to hear much if any difference, but I did hear a hardware store power cord (the stock cord. provided by Sound Lab) come in second to a ribbon type power cord from Maple Shade, which was by far NOT the most costly of the 6 cords I evaluated.  LIkewise, one ought not to generalize that cartridges can in any way be ranked for SQ according to cost. You can do it, but you will be ignoring some superb cartridges.

Interesting power cord comparison with your Sound Labs.

And speaking of tonearm/cartridge match..

I'll let others speak, I don't know much about it.

My today self is amused by my then self for even taking the trouble to assemble 6 pairs of power cords, let alone doing the listening test.

Why not ? After all, six is not sixty, that was reasonable.

I'll never be at that range so,forget about it...not even 1k.

$30k table, $15k arm, $25k phono stage

@inna 

I believe you can reach a high quality analog rig for less.   Targeting a rig good enough to play top carts but at least cost while minimally sacrificing Sonic quality, I got a used VPI Avenger Rim drive $8k (excellent established mass type turntable), new 4point (excellent price/performance) n Schroeder tonearms $5-10k, used VDH Grail SB phono stage $6.5k (bargain priced current phono to lower noise floor). With this I run top carts from Lyra, VDH, Koetsu….  One drawback - if I want to run a SUT, then I’ll have to get a quality “voltage” phono stage

@neonknight I find myself wondering same.. across 3 TT, arms , etc… but as you say it’s a hobby..i prefer passionate affliction… To paraphrase Lew.. my current self is thankful …

There is some good description of what makes a difference here, from the founder of Soundsmith: https://youtu.be/F65mODzn4Gk?si=chNaLUA7EOkvrW6s

@inna @rauliruegas  and @lewm both make good points. I have two more to offer that are in the same vein:

1) the ability of the arm to properly track the cartridge is far more important than what cartridge you have.

2) there is something called the Veblen Effect where there is abnormal market behavior where consumers purchase the higher-priced goods whereas similar low-priced (but not identical) substitutes are available. It is caused either by the belief that higher price means higher quality, or by the desire for conspicuous consumption. 

The thing to keep in mind here is that a more expensive item might only be more expensive for that reason alone.  High end audio is driven be intention rather than price; this means that there is often a less expensive device that can perform and sound better for less (sometimes a lot less) money.

$30k table, $15k arm, $25k phono stage

Agree with others - it’s a mistake to think like this. For example, the top-range Koetsu cartridges match brilliantly to Fidelity Research arms that can be found quite easily under $2K (used). There are other affordable arms they’ll sound great with too. You actually DON’T want to put them on a modern high-end straight, low mass, highly damped arm. That's not their sonic partner. It will sound dull and boring. 

$25k phono is gratuitous. Go for it, if you can and have the desire. But much more moderate stages can do wonderfully. The match of MC cartridge to MC stage is crucial (especially as lo-MC’s have lower output levels), but it’s not necessary to shovel anywhere near that much money in.

Same with the table. You can have well less than $10K total in arm, cartridge, phono - and still get the "full Koetsu" experience out of whatever stone you put on it.

Someone else said you can sometimes be pleasantly surprised by placing a very high-end component into a more modest system, and vice versa: placing a very budget component into a very high-end system. I’ve certainly found that can be true, in both cases.

mulveling, you just seem to like cartridges more than the rest of analogue front end! And I like the table more than others.

It is not a mistake to think like I do - it is a different approach. And I follow it.

@atmasphere 

Thanks for the post, which is a good example of why I like this forum.  It's an excellent opportunity to learn more than just about the underlying audio issue.

Putting Ralph's # 1 at the center, how do you choose cartridge that your arm will track perfectly ? And we are talking about extremely expensive cartridges here, no margin for error unless you want to end up with BS.

how do you choose cartridge that your arm will track perfectly ?

@inna Good tonearms are a trick!

You'll want to use a calculator like this one.

A good arm will have absolutely no slop between the cartridge mount and the base of the arm. Its very hard to do this with a jeweled bearing since over-tightening such a bearing could result in damage.

The arm tube should be damped in some manner so it can't resonate while the cartridge is tracking.

Its helpful to have the arm bearings in the same plane as the vinyl so the tracking pressure is constant with warp and bass modulation.

The arm must be very adjustable so settings can be dialed in precisely.

Of course, I could not afford the setup that a 10K cartridge would require, but I have a question. What type of LP would be up to the task of producing such high quality sound? It seems to me that only the highest quality audiophile discs would justify such a cartridge. I don’t believe the run of the mill LP would benefit, but I may be wrong.

Go home $5K and $10K cartridges. You're all drunk.

 https://trackingangle.com/features/clearaudio-launches-new-flagship-diamond-jubilee-mc-cartridge

Of course, I could not afford the setup that a 10K cartridge would require, but I have a question. What type of LP would be up to the task of producing such high quality sound? It seems to me that only the highest quality audiophile discs would justify such a cartridge. I don’t believe the run of the mill LP would benefit, but I may be wrong.

Literally any decent sounding LP - there are tons out there. And again, a lot of the difference is just "different sound" with "better" being harder to quantify and agree upon. You might be blown away by a $10K cartidge one day, only to later find a $2K cart you like even better. If you want to go for the most "accurate and resolving" cartridges, I'd probably look at the latest top-end Ortofons or (based on impressions of others - I have not heard these myself) the DS Audio optical carts. The couple times I heard an Ortofon Anna (which is now outdated) it sounded reminiscent of really good, very high-end digital. The A90, Windfeld MC and Ti walk that line a bit, too.

Clearaudio Launches New Flagship Diamond Jubilee MC Cartridge

limited to 45 units, priced at $29,000

mulveling, judging by your description Ortofon doesn't sound appealing. Do you like Lyra cartridges ?

mulveling, judging by your description Ortofon doesn't sound appealing. Do you like Lyra cartridges ?

I actually did enjoy the Windfeld Ti and A90 - they're not completely dry & analytical, nor without their own unique charms. The Windfeld Ti is quite a punchy and dynamic cartridge, to go along with its high level of detail - it has some decent body to its mids - and its balance is not too tipped in favor of HF's. Also have to respect that Ortofon has really pushed the envelope of experimenting with technologies and designs. 

But in the end it was still sort of hit-or-miss; some days I loved it and others I'd just lose patience and return to the warm embrace of Japanese MC's. 

No Lyra's yet. I'm curious, but the rep of tipped-up HF has kept me away so far. 

I bet, at this level I would choose Japanese MC as well. I don't like too much energy in high frequences. Japanese understand sound, no doubt about it.

@rvpiano  @mulveling Regular albums absolutely do benefit from higher end cartridges. That's a big part of the reason I have gone down that path of upgrades. If I just cared about boutique audiophile reissues I would have been done upgrading long before many of the changes/upgrades I have made in recent years. My primary motivation for system improvements is to bring more out of all the regular records I have collected over the last 50+ years. I think one of the biggest benefits I get out of using my Lyra Atlas Lambda SL is how well my old classical records (from 60s, 70s, etc) play with it. The audiophile records already sounded great with lesser cartridges. The regular records benefited more, IMO.

@mulveling 

No Lyra's yet. I'm curious, but the rep of tipped-up HF has kept me away so far

That's not at all how I personally describe my Lyras. The HF is very smooth and silky. It sounds beautiful with every kind of music I have played with it. It's a somewhat similar sound of the better Dynavectors, IMO (I have a XV-1s). 

I also have an older Clearaudio Concerto V2. That's a cartridge I feel has tipped up HF, with a midrange that's too anemic and analytical for my taste. I especially don't care for it playing classical music.

dwette, what table/arm do you use with Lyra ?

+1 @atmasphere 

@rvpiano +1 "What type of LP would be up to the task of producing such high quality sound?"

Vinyl records produced/tested with “professional” grade carts, with focus on sound accuracy. 

“Vinyl records produced/tested with “professional” grade carts, with focus on sound accuracy”.

It seems to me that would be a very limiting factor for me, acquiring a 1oK cartridge. I don’t want to just listen for the sake of listening. I’d rather listen for the music therein.

Well, some recording studios use $5 per mile cables to make recordings. This doesn't mean that your audiophile cables don't make them sound better than similar $5 per mile cables. They do. Better equipment makes everything sound better, regardless of the quality of the recordings. The degree will vary.

@inna 

dwette, what table/arm do you use with Lyra ?

Clearaudio Innovation and Clearaudio Universal 12", with Boulder 1108 phono-stage.

dwette, I see. Do you also have Boulder preamp and power amp ?

In general, ones entire collection sounds better with better sounding cartridges. As I moved from $100, to $1K, to $3K to $7K they also seemed to track in a different location and my 1960's and '70s albums nearly sounded new. I am assuming they track much deeper. I have only heard $12K cartridges and did not know the albums history, so can't comment on those. 

@inna

dwette, I see. Do you also have Boulder preamp and power amp ?

No, but that may come to pass, based on my experience with how very good the Boulder 1108 phono-stage is.

I have a Naim Audio NAC 252/Supercap DR preamp + Naim NAP 300 DR power amp, with Dynaudio Confidence C2 Platinum speakers and a pair of REL S/510 subs. I was using a Naim Superline + Supercap DR phono-stage, but after adding a 2nd tonearm I needed something with dual phono inputs, but I wanted something that is not a downgrade from the Naim phono-stage. The Boulder ticked all the boxes.

If I ever decide to move on from my Naim 252/300 I have (which is quite excellent) I would first audition a Boulder 1110/1161 series for pre/amp, based on how good the phono-stage is.

My digital front end is a Naim NDX2/XPS-DR. I won’t make any changes there, for the simple reason I just don’t play digital that much in my main system as I do analog.

@ghdprentice

In general, ones entire collection sounds better with better sounding cartridges.

I couldn’t agree more. To my mind – forget the audiophile reissues – that’s the best reason to climb the ladder on great cartridges.

dwette, excellent plan. Boulder is top level of SS amplification.

This is an "Oh Good Lord" type question.

I can't imagine spending close to that much on a cartridge for vinyl. But this is a hobby and some just like what they like and believe what they want to believe.

I would hope there was a meaningful difference in quality for twice the money, and at that level, particularly. But I am cynical.

"Better equipment makes everything sound better, regardless of the quality of the recordings"

-only if you know what “better” is! LOL

I am so glad I never went down this rabbit hole 🕳️ 🥕.

This doesn't mean that your audiophile cables don't make them sound better than similar $5 per mile cables. They do.

@inna In the recording studio they don't. That is because the equipment in the studio is balanced and supports AES48, the balanced line standard, and all the connections are low impedance. That practice swamps noise and sonic artifacts of the cable caused by materials and the geometry of the cable.

Vinyl records produced/tested with “professional” grade carts, with focus on sound accuracy. 

@westcoastaudiophile Any LP mastering operation uses a cartridge for playback, but usually its nothing expensive. We used a Grado Gold in our operation. The reason isn't to winnow out the last detail, rather is so the engineer can test to see if the cut he made is track-able by a 'normal' pickup. Things like out-of-phase bass can knock the stylus out of the groove, grooves can be 'overcut', interfering with the groove next to it and so on.  That's all about making the cut playable. Sound quality otherwise has nothing to do with that and everything to do with how carefully the cutting stylus is set up, how much care is put into the cut (whether short cuts like compression are used) and the quality of the recording itself.

Ralph, I suppose you are right, but I was talking about reproduction outside recording studios.