Is it possible for a high end manufacturer to overprice their goods?

I do not generally think that cost necessarily parallels performance in high end audio. I was recently at an old friends house listening to vinyl on a $1500 rig and it sounded great. There is a very real phenomena of luxury pricing designed to make people THNK it’s better when it’s not. That said the Rockport Orion is worth every penny. Joy and happiness achieved from music do not require anywhere near this investment. That is a different question. 

For it to be really good it has to be expensive right?  

My current phono stage, a Schitt Mani, sounds great to me but it's so cheap that I keep thinking there must be something better because it's so cheap, but I'm not finding it.  If it were priced higher I probably would not be looking.  If I paid a grand for it I would make sure in my mind that it sounds great and wouldn't doubt it and I wouldn't be looking.  

yes of course,, need profit 2000 percent minimum to survive for high end manufacture

I have been playing with audio equipment since I was 13 and now I am 50. I have worked in the industry on an off over the last 37 years. I was was a dealer of new and used equipment. In 2013 I purchased a huge collection of equipment that it took almost 4 years to sell. During the early part of Covid I started selling audio equipment again. I could own just about any kind of audio system I want. In Dec of 2019. I had a pair of Yamaha NS 1000m on L100 stands, a Bryston B60R and BDA 2, Bryston Moving Magnet phono amp, a Technics SL 10 linear tracking turntable with the factory moving coil cartridge rebuilt by the sound smith. The turntable has a built in mc step up transformer for the cartridge. A Simaudio Moon streamer. All of this wired with Mogami. I have owned some of the most exotic beautiful equipment you have ever seen and rarely does it sound as good as my cheap system. Much of the ultra high priced equipment rarely sounds all that great even with really well designed listening rooms. I still have the system that I have mentioned above. I do have a much more resolving system at my office. I have come to the conclusion that price has no correlation with sonic performance. There are many products that are well engineered, built well with great materials that perform at a very high level at a very reasonable cost and there is the pixie dust BS.

It is possible for low end manufacturers to overprice their goods.  

People say audiophile gear prices are crazy and they might be right.  However, show me a (component) for cheaper that sounds as good in all categories,  

Unfortunately many times the price you have to pay is the price of admission for that kind of sound.  

I don’t know the answer to your general question about price evaluation. I can say some things on the specifics of the Orion. You reference hyperbole in the review and I can understand why if you’ve never heard the Orion. That happens all the time with reviewers. In this case in my opinion none of it was hyperbole. I heard Orions in the room that housed Wilson XVX at the Sound Environment in Omaha. To me the Orions are a better overall speaker than the 345k XVX. When Peter set up the XVX they held a presentation as they did when Josh set up the Orions. I’m told there were about 10 attendees that made it to both presentations. As stated in another Audiogon thread and verified by me with the folks at TSE almost all preferred the Orion. It’s a GREAT speaker. Now if you’re a horn guy you may not like them and that’s fine. To each his own. If you are a dynamic speaker guy and you listen without bias you can not help but be impressed. As far as cost goes consider 5/1 cost to retail as a starting point. Does Orion have 30k in cost? Well look at the video on its construction. 360 pounds of cast aluminum and carbon fiber! Every driver is new and was created specifically for this project which took 3 years to develop. Rockport is a small company. How would you amortize the engineering costs for this. Each driver was engineered fully by Andy. Nothing is off the shelf. Every speaker is listened to and measured by Andy and Josh. No two drivers or cabinets are exactly a like so each crossover is fine tuned by the owners before it goes out the door! That is not efficient but it is beyond amazing. Most sane people would say it’s absolutely stupid to pay this kind of money for a stereo. They have a point. In the world of relative value in this crazy hobby I would say these are fairly priced. 

@markalarsen The assumption of a fair market is the root of most problems in our world. There is no such thing as a fair market. The values are rigged or influenced by actors in that market. A direct example would be a monopoly, or oligopoly. These things inherently exist in any market, it's just a matter of time. 

Furthermore, the line between non-experts, experts and salesmen is very very thin and blurry. 

The value of Hermes handbags is 90% the brand and the assumption that its value will rise over time (due to limited production run and high demand). The physical object is worthless in comparison. The NAD 3050 LE is making a farce out of us. NAD will no doubt release a dozen similar amplifiers with slightly different features and specs. The NAD 3050 LE is selling like hotcakes because it's "limited edition" and it looks different. It also helps that the amp is predictably good in an NAD fashion. "You can't go wrong". 

So if you view Hi-fi like Hermes handbags, you'll be buying gear based on re-sale value. Not performance. That's probably the smartest way to go about it. I mean these vintage Pioneer and Marantz amps from the 1970s are shooting up in value because of "Hi-Fi influencers" (which are typically vintage shops trying to move products). You may as well buy them and sell them later for a profit. 

Lastly, there's no such thing as a reasonable buyer. You either have cheapskates, gear flippers or fools. 

No.  Fair market value is what a reasonable seller is willing to sell the product and what a reasonable buyer is willing to pay. If any product is sold, opinions from non-experts are worthless. I have some strong opinions about Hermes hand bags, but no one cares. 

Anything is possible 

in luxury goods, price is one component of the value.  The manufacturer is not selling a function, they are selling the brand. Add limited production-  reduce the supply for the same demand and price may be increase even more.

The best part is: they don't need to sell any. They can keep selling the midrange stuff and claim trickle-down buzzwords and increase its price by 10%

Nope speakers are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars obviously! As well as amps, 20k + power and speaker cables etc. 

@daveyf This discussion may as well branch out into economics, art, politics and philosophy. 

I mean some artist sold a banana taped to a wall for a $120k. Is it overpriced? No because it's art...

Yeah the adage "something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it" is always 100% correct until you talk about utilities or medecine... Fortunately, we're talking about non-essential consumer goods here. So you could even argue that everything is under-priced and underrated considering labor costs. Only the high-end is priced 'correctly'. 

At the end of the day you vote with your wallet. The 'overpriced' question is not something for individuals to answer. It's more relevant if you're the seller. Ask the seller, not the buyer. 

One of the common themes of this thread are posts that state that high end is 'over priced'. While we may believe that, perhaps it is not over priced and is in fact priced at a point that the various vendors know their goods will sell. Since the old adage that something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it is usually 100% correct; maybe the folks who are saying most (all) high end is overpriced-- are in fact incorrect? 

@kokakolia 

Surprisingly Sonus Faber pricing favors the mid-range, the more you pay the exponentially more value you get.

There are two strategies: make the profit on the lower end vs the top end. Of course, with the sound, everyone's priorities are different, for me the best (perceived) value is the no overhead boutique brands 

@grislybutter Agreed. There are many bookshelf speakers from boutique brands under 3000€. But we're getting off-topic. Immense competition is obviously good. But it's hard to get your brand out there. US brands have a huge priority above Euro brands. 

I don't know, I would be hesitant to purchase high-end speakers from Wilson Audio, Sonus Faber or Focal. They're obviously putting a lot of their budget into bribing the press and marketing. 

 

 

@kokakolia I have been looking at prices for 3 weeks now, 100s of speakers (243 and counting), and I don’t see it. Sure there are outliers but for the most part, these companies’ managers aren’t driving Teslas. There is great value at 3K and even better value at 10 and there may be of course, a bigger markup over 20K but way fewer buyers too. The competition is immense that keeps prices in check.

@hoodjem I was about to say something similar. Let's face it, the absolute high end doesn't sell many products. Expect a handful of sales every year. 

I truly believe that buyers are clueless and rely on emotion and gut feeling when buying expensive audio equipment. Let me put it this way: in a room full of $100k speakers, the $50k speaker will seem inferior based on price and expected value alone (even if it performs better). 

So manufacturers may by nudging buyers into spending more money that way. Just create a very extensive, overly complicated line of speakers. Make the prices exponential. This is really a car salesman tactic. You expect to spend $20k on a car, you walk out of the dealer with a $35k vehicle because it was on sale and because most other cars in the showroom were around $50k. Your brain accepts higher prices because you perceive higher prices at the dealership. This applies to eveything: furniture, mattresses, kitchens, bikes etc...

It's not unreasonable to assume that flagship products drive up the prices for lower-tiered products by association. In other words, drive up the averages. 

 

I imagine some audio manufacturers having an internal discussion--

"We can make it for $200, sell it for $500 and sell lots." 

"But, if we sell it for $500, no one will take it seriously as truly ’high end.’  Let’s price it at $5000 and call it our Statement product. Then we’ll sell even more."  

fun fact: the most expensive speakers are made in a region, a fairly straight line from Switzerland to the Netherlands.

Possibly the super priced speakers you refer to are all totally "custom" and not in a retail catalog...and clearly many $100,000+ speakers sell well and others do not...seems to have worked quite well for Rockport and Wilson over decades of sales...not so good for some others

the average (audiophile) low end is $400 and the high end is 60K, based on ~70 brands. There are less than a few well known brands who make speakers for over a 100K. I would call them luxury priced, not overpriced

 

I think overpricing is more common in the jump from mid-fi to hi-fi, when the differences are not substantial but the price jump is

@patrickwilison   Clearly 'overpriced' is a relative term. But, I think we are not so much taking about an 'overpriced' item here, as one that is so costly that even the most well heeled a'phile will balk at the price...

Therefore, my OP was questioning whether the price asked by a high end manufacturer can actually ever be too high for them to sell any of the product that is touted as 'SOTA'?? 

 

Folks, if we look at the pricing points in high end, it seems if we take speakers as an example, the low price points for high end speakers seem to hover around $500 to $1000 ( Maggies, some Polks etc.,) and the ceiling seems to be around $1M or so, ( for Wilson Wamm's and a few others). At the ceiling point, we do not see speakers that are priced in the multi millions. ( $2M or more), yet! But, i wonder why, do these very same manufacturer's know what the threshold is to their maximum attainable price...or is it something else? 

if you ask me all top high end manufacturers offering overpriced products.

 

@mitch2 wrote:

Can speakers that are great at dynamics and drive also excel at detail and nuance?

Why wouldn't they? Or is it that when excelling at "dynamics and drive," certainly among a range of speakers that fare well here, there are aspects of the reproduction, such like detail and nuance, that would seem less prominent in the face of prowess in other areas? Honestly I've never really felt detail and nuance to be lacking in speakers that excelled at dynamics, at least not as a general observation, but that there's instead a typical shift in the distribution of the presentation as a whole; with dynamically capable speakers, larger horn-loaded iterations in particular, the overall sonic imprinting veers towards that of a higher "density" of reproduction overall, with - in many cases - a more outspoken richness or energy in the "power region" (i.e.: ~150-400Hz) in addition to a fuller and more physical reproduction from the central mids on up. Conversely quite a few if not most direct radiating and lower eff. speakers sound leaner (i.e.: less meat on the bones) by comparison, which subjectively tends to heighten the sensation of detail and "airiness." There's also a higher ratio of direct sound vs. reflected ditto sound from larger horns, that may lead to a less "reverberative" presentation and only add to the sensation of a "thicker" and more robust sound. 

@mitch2  An excellent question. I think it is possible that a speaker can do great dynamics and drive and, when called upon, can also excel at detail and nuance. I recently listened to a new pair of Wilson Alexx V’s, that seemed to fit that bill, albeit at a price.

@mitch2 

Can speakers that are great at dynamics and drive also excel at detail and nuance?

That's an interesting question and one which even after some 30 years of experience in Hi-Fi, I'm not too sure of the answer.

I've certainly heard some very expensive speakers (£50k+) that definitely couldn't do both. They tended to be exotic designs where the designer wanted them to do certain things as best as they could even if it meant doing others far less well.

So, for some like-minded people they still might be reasonable value for money but for others they would be stupidly overpriced.

Ridiculously so.

Can speakers that are great at dynamics and drive also excel at detail and nuance?

I would agree that rock does seem to hold a certain challenge to many high end speakers, regardless of the price. Most of the time, I don’t hear it played back well on speakers that are great for jazz or classical. Question becomes as to whether there is truly a certain type of speaker that does all things best…including music like RAP? 
The JBL’s mentioned would be preferable to a lot of speakers for rock,at and above their price range, but for other types of music and specifically something that requires an intimate presentation, not so much. 
 

@cd318 ...*S*  I can agree with that sentiment; any and all salespersons should have a breath of experience with some 'classics' as well as the new & any offerings at hand....but that's a tall order, since (I'd suspect) most that can fill that muse are pending on my age and/or have gone onto the Great Auditoriums In The Sky... ;)

I liked the L1hun....out of my $zone at the time, and the grille would be a tease even my cat, well behaved as Grace was, would have sorely been tempted by...

As to what I had at the time?  I suspect my 901s', in a small studio apartment that I opted to show restraint with regards to my neighbors...and the aged window panes...*g*

?! Is the Pope catholic? Most current hi fi equipment is overpriced!

@asvjerry 

Anyone who could remember the 'sound, the qualities' of even most of the various speakers and/or the equipment would be considered to be a savant of sorts....

 

I guess not, but at the least you should be aware of the strengths of various loudspeakers etc.

In that particular example Howard Popeck was familiar with both the Harbeths and the JBLs. I probably wouldn't pick the JBL L100 if I listened to mainly classical, they're good but there's probably better out there.

However for rock they're amongst the best speakers I've ever heard. It's hard to describe just why but they do have amazing transients and dynamics plus clean mids. They also have good bass but it's not the kind that's artificially boosted and then suddenly falls off a cliff.

Every dealer and reviewer should be familiar with a speaker like that just in case a listener strongly favours one particular genre over others.

As for modern equivalents, I've never heard any of the Zu speakers but I'd expect them to be also extremely good with rock. Maybe PMC too as both Sean Casey and Peter Thomas look as if they might enjoy some hard rock now and then.

 

@kokakolia 

That stuff is either overpriced, overhyped, over-engineered with exotic hard-to-find parts, or all of the above. Everyone is trying to re-invent the wheel in the high-end market. Because the wheel is too basic, convenient and affordable. You're swimming with the sharks in a high-end market. The sharks are the salesmen. Furthermore, high-end equipment can be experimental and unreliable at times. 

Good argument, one that applies across the board.

I remember seeing one of the earliest large screen LCD TVs at a show in London when they were first coming out.

This one had a mediocre picture at best and cost £29,000!

We were told that Buckingham Palace had ordered one.

Who'd have thought the Queen would be at the cutting edge when it came to TVs?

Or perhaps it was the Queen mum, she was said to have enjoyed her horse racing on TV.

There's almost always a risk attached to cutting edge technology as well as a hefty premium to pay.

 

@daveyf Yes, I went off tangent. You are right.

I’ll conclude that the very high end is bogus. The prices are astronomical to inflate the perceived value. You can cite extreme examples with 1 million dollar speakers. Maybe you should define high end in terms of performance. I believe that you can achieve that for tens of thousands of dollars if you’re smart. The very best Yamaha system is « only » $50k. You get all of the electronics (amp, preamp, cd player, turntable, full range speakers). Perhaps I am moving goal posts. I trust Yamaha more than a small boutique manufacturer selling $300k speakers and might go out of business soon. 
 

So yeah, a step below the very high end could be the sweet spot. Going entry level was never your intention. 

@kokakolia While my thread was asking about the very top end pricing in audio, I am interested in your points about the area below high end...commonly called mid-fi, or even mass produced low end gear. I think today, unlike in years past, there are some quite good low priced components that do give one a ’taste’ of what high end can accomplish, ( which is what i think you are pointing out). However, while this is encouraging for folk who cannot budget for what is now becoming very serious $$ for a lot of this gear, the reality of the situation is...and I hate to say this, that one typically does get what one pays for in this hobby in SQ ( in most instances). IF..again IF, you have a chance to listen to what some of this gear can sound like, particularly when set up properly in a proper dedicated acoustic space, I feel certain that you will hear what it is that the top high end companies provide from a SQ perspective. Now my question of whether the $$ asked can be raised to such a point that even the most well-heeled audiophile says...sorry, too expensive and I pass regardless of the ability, still applies.

@skinzy You can buy the Polk « R » series (Polk R200) on the Walmart website. But it’s from a third party vendor. That speaker is seriously good. And I know you’re joking but I’m pretty serious. 
 

In hindsight I am going against the Audiogon lifestyle of taking the HiFi hobby to the next level. Whatever that means. But it certainly doesn’t imply buying reasonably priced and unexpectedly good mass-produced entry level speakers. I suppose that you guys value exotic components, craftsmanship and brand heritage more than others. 
 

I suppose that I am providing a baseline for all speaker evaluations. If a high end setup doesn’t outshine a humble Polk R200 powered by a humble Denon amp then it may as well be overpriced junk and you should feel bad about yourself LOL. 
 

This leads to another thought: high end stuff seems to be reviewed in isolation and compared to other high end stuff. It is implied that the high end is far superior than the entry-level. But once in a blue moon you can become annoyed by the unexpected performance of modern entry-level gear if you own high end stuff. It’s all relative of course. And craftsmanship plays a huge part in the price, less so in the performance. 
 

Last point: I envy the people who just spend less than two thousand on a Hi-Fi setup and are completely happy. Just look at the people on the internet who spend tens of thousands on Hi-Fi and are never happy. The simplicity of spending $1.5k on a full system at Walmart is alluring. 

@kokakolia You convinced me.  I'll start shopping at Walmart for the best of everything.

@cd318 The honesty debacle is hard to tackle, especially in the high-end market. It is kind of implied that you're over-spending on High-End equipment. That stuff is either overpriced, overhyped, over-engineered with exotic hard-to-find parts, or all of the above. Everyone is trying to re-invent the wheel in the high-end market. Because the wheel is too basic, convenient and affordable. You're swimming with the sharks in a high-end market. The sharks are the salesmen. Furthermore, high-end equipment can be experimental and unreliable at times. 

In comparison, the entry-level or midrange feels like a safe ball pit with foam edges. In this environment manufacturers use off-the-shelf parts with tried-and-true methods. There is some trickle-down stuff from the high end. Most of the experimental kinks are addressed. 

My position is: avoid the high end at all costs.

This applies to everything: cars, furniture, homes, clothing, watches etc...

While the news about ARC going into receivership is not really a speaker forum subject, it does possibly connect to this thread.

About a year or so ago, I was at an ARC dealers premier of their new Reference 80s amp. While I was there, the ARC rep was discussing with the attendees some of ARC’s future product line up. It was to include a new flagship model with, if I remember, about 64+ KT150 tubes and slated to be a replacement to the Ref 750SE model. I asked the rep two questions, one was how much heat this beast would give off, and two…how expensive? The rep told me that he didn’t know about the heat, which I thought could be a considerable problem in a hot climate, and that the price was not yet set, but definitely more expensive than the Ref 750 SE! Many attendees said nothing, but the look on their faces said it all.. and it was obvious to all that this new flagship would be a VERY hard sell.

It sometimes pays to have a dealer that has a wide range of tastes and experience in music.

Perhaps every good dealer or reviewer should have that?

 

Great idea, @cd318 .... on a practical level?

Rare.  Anyone who could remember the 'sound, the qualities' of even most of the various speakers and/or the equipment would be considered to be a savant of sorts....

May not be a good salesman for what you came looking for....just saying... ;)

"Freds' great.....but diapers?  On a 35 yr. old....well, whatever....Fred claims to be....today....🙄🤨 "

( Likely to be there all night with Fred as the contrasts/+/-/=/>/</etc. unreels...*L*)

@daveyf

@cd318 Quite a difference between Harbeth’s and JBL L100’s!! Presumably your sister was primarily into rock, which might explain the preference for JBL’s.

 

Your presumption is correct.

If I remember correctly from what she told me, Howard demonstrated both the SLH5s and the C7ES3s which she thought were better but neither were to her taste.

Apparently Howard had been into rock himself and was familiar with what the JBLs could do.

It sometimes pays to have a dealer that has a wide range of tastes and experience in music.

Perhaps every good dealer or reviewer should have that?

@cd318  Quite a difference between Harbeth's and JBL L100's!! Presumably your sister was primarily into rock, which might explain the preference for JBL's.

 

@jl35  You ask a good question, how much do consumers in the very high price range for some of this audio gear concern themselves about re-sale value? I suspect little, because most of this gear drops heavily in value once used. There are numerous examples of high $$ speakers that are not easy to sell at 70% of new- once hitting the used market, regardless of age! 

OTOH, while this is an interesting point, i am not sure at what price point this relates to my OP, because there are also examples of far less expensive gear that also fails to hold value, and naturally, there are a few examples of gear that has actually risen in value ( although a much much smaller category).Albeit, I can't think of a ultra pricey speaker system that has risen in value.

 

@thyname 

1) Lot of noise in the internet. You are right. Coming from "innocent" people with a secret agenda, whether from the manufacturers' side, or themselves profit motif. The key is to get to know the people online or personally that you learn to trust, both integrity wise, and from the perspective of matching their taste with your own. This takes years (if not decades) and constant exposure to what goes on in the hobby, user forums and publications / reviewers.

 

You're right, when it comes to opinions in audio, it can take years to find people who you can trust.

The same thing applies to cars, electrics, plumbing, health etc.

I still have fond memories of Derek Whittington who ran Sound Advice from Loughborough. I bought my first system from him and I'll always be grateful for his honesty and patience.

He was big on Linn and Naim, like so many were back then, but neither Derek nor anyone in his shop ever pushed anything on me.

I remember one difficult listening session where I couldn't find a single well reviewed loudspeaker I liked more than what I had already until someone there suggested listening to the Rega Kytes.

That was a classic case of using your own ears to make a purchasing decision. 

As you say, trying a product at home would be best but listening at a dealers is still far better than taking a gamble on what you've read or heard.

Howard Popeck is another name that comes to mind. Years ago my sister fancied some new speakers and auditioned some Harbeths at home.  She was unimpressed until Howard suggested listening to some vintage JBL L100s which she still loves to this day.

certainly Rockport has been highly successful selling very high priced speakers for decades, while others not successful... I think their speakers sound incredibly good, though have never had the chance to compare them to similarly priced speakers...not sure how much buyers in that price range care about resale value...

@curtdr  The question is not whether a marketing plan exists that banks on 'over pricing' gear to sell at the high end, but rather if it is possible that such a plan might ultimately cause buyer ' exhaustion'? Resulting in a major reduction in sales to a final conclusion of zero sales? This would seem to me to be highly probable, since the upward spiral in pricing is getting more aggressive. But, perhaps we have just seen the tip of the iceberg here, who knows? 

@tomrk +1  "A lot of fun actually, but what struck me is that with few exceptions that price had nothing to do with the quality of the sound coming from the speakers."

what you say has been my experience over 40 years of this audio hobby

not only is it "possible" for "high end" manufacturers to overprice, it’s NORMAL...

and hey, if it works to sell stuff, well, so be it: what the market will bear, right?

some people are attracted to stuff ... "luxury" stuff ... exactly because it's priced high -- such folks are into exclusivity of money, moreso than performance.

Interestingly, most self-made American millionaires are not duped by such marketing ploys and do not care about luxury bling, which explains why they're self-made millionaires.  

 

Funny you should mention that. A lot of good components are getting way over the top expensive. I certainly do not think more expensive = always better.

@thyname,

I do have a lot more skills than you and you’ve just realized that while you really can do just absolutely nothing with your unsupported arguments. What else should I do or say??

Everything else is pretty much OK here (and counting).