Is it even possible to set up a system in 12x12 room?

Hey Steve, I actually purchased my pair of Dynaudio Special 40's after reading one of your reviews, and I find them every bit as delightful as you mention. What a beautiful, beautiful sound! I haven't tried the 45 toe as above. I'll give it a try, I concur on the nearfield positioning.

I am in a 12X13 room and I have never heard a better system in my lifetime of 35 years in HiFi. At shows, at dealers, no matter the cost. Starts with choosing the right speakers. Small ones. Avoid floor standers, and stay with small two way high quality speakers.

I have several speakers and amps I swap out on occasion but right now I am alternating a a Vinnie Rossie L2i SE and Naim Nova with B&W 705 S2’s and Dynaudio Special 40’s. The way I achieve magic here is simple. The room is damped with carpet, window coverings and a couch. Things are on the walls and I also have shelves behind me. The couch is pulled 8" from the wall and my speakers are placed WELL into the room about 6 feet from me (nearfield) and 5 1/2 feet out from the back wall, so almost six feet into the room. They are about 2 1/2- 3 feet from the side walls. They are then angled at a 45 degree toe in. YES, 45 degrees so. they cross a good 1-2 feet in front of me.

Looks crazy but the sound is pure holographic magic with solid bass that never booms but is tight, tuneful and massive when called upon. There is also a sweet silky treble with a 3 dimensional aspect one could never re-create in a larger room. I wouldn’t trade my just about square room for anything. But it is dedicated to only my music. If I place my speakers in a traditional way, 1-2 feet from back wall I will get awful boom and if I pull the out more I have no bass. So I must bring them out farther, a little closer together, 45 degree toe in and listen nearfield. This allows me to literally see through the performance and be inside of it, I can look around and literally almost see the instruments in space. Give it a go if you like, and no treatments are needed if your room is naturally treated already (carpet, couch, etc). 

Oh, and these also sound just as big as my Cornwall IV's in my living room. So I have scale, bass, sweet treble, holographic imaging and a massive wall of sound that goes to the boundaries of the room. Had my audio in this room for ten years and have learned along the way ; ) 

Towed in is seemingly dependent on the speaker and the room. In my room, I slightly prefer straight ahead with my speakers, possibly not the case with different speakers. Again, experimentation is the key here.
Room acoustic treatments are possibly more important in a small room than big..again room and speaker dependent would be my experience.
I think there is no wrong or right about the small room set up, trial and error is the key, IME. BUT, once it locks in, you will know it...and the SQ should be excellent...with the proviso that very deep bass probably isn’t going to happen...and neither is large scale. These two aspects take a larger room and large speakers, BUT the off-set is greater intimacy and a more resolved sound in many cases. Near-field listening, again IME, is in many ways beneficial than to listening to music from some distance..in many instances too far due to the size of the room.IMHO.

I'll try 1/3, never tried a laser, that's a good idea. I have no idea just eye balled it. When I get time I'm going to start walking speakers around. I did notice soundstage is not as locked in and confused compared to last room, would like to fix that. Is room treatment more crucial in a small room, I've never spent much time and money on room treatment, maybe I should. Do most toe in or out, I found towed almost facing straight sounded natural but that's how I have always towed speakers. I haven't spent any time with this room or placement.

@paulcreed   Glad to hear that you are coming to grips with your small room. IMO, experimentation with speaker placement is beneficial...even in very minor amounts. I use a laser to get the accuracy needed. To that, i think a good general rule is the 1/3 application. 
Room acoustic treatments are definitely a major plus, and I think some bass trapping is always warranted.

I was too lazy to break down racks to try to go low for now. I  lined all 3 racks together and have no extreme experimenting  yet with speaker placement. I have only tried floorstander which I put front baffle 3 1/2 feet off wall and rear is 2 feet off wall, with side of speaker 1 1/2 feet off side wall. The crossover is external so that was a little tricky with the bend of speaker wire but it worked. I have no room treatment yet. Couch is up against wall for now. After all I have read over the years how bad a square room and chair up against wall is I was very surprised how good it sounded. Speakers totally disappeared, that was big concern. I wanted to try the most bass dominate recordings I could think of so I put on Herbie Hancock Head hunter and Allison Krauss/Robert Plant Rasing Sand first. The bass is fairly tight but there can definitely some boominess with the bass but it's not bad at all. I did not find it to be overly bright which was a little shocking, I think the copper foil Jupiter and Miflex in Preamp and speakers may have helped. I was very happy with highs very airy and detailed with out being fatiguing in the slightest.  I do have rear firing tweeters, I did notice it was very sensitive when turning the dial vs the previous room. I'm going to call GIK this week and now figure out how to tighten bass and achieve a little more tone. I'm now going to put a little time in with speaker placement, room treatment and getting as much gear lower on the floor and see what happens.

Sounds good Paul!

Thanks everyone for there support, I thought I was an odd ball with such a small room, looks like I was totally wrong. Looks like many have had great results with a small room. I am going to set up everything this weekend and see what happens, I'm going to break down some of the racks and use the maple shelves on the floor to keep things low if I can. I have some spikes and old Nordost pulsar and Quasar footers to use on carpet over concrete floors if I can. I also looked at GIK panels not bad prices either just need to figure out how many and where to place them. Soon as I get things up and running I'll report back.

I too have a 12x12 audiophile room, and vaulted ceiling up to 20 feet with a pair of Vandersteen 2CE Sig II Speakers driven by a pair McIntosh monoblocks 601 watts each and a Mac tube preamp, two large acoustic panels behind each speakers and two behind the back wall,  I tell you, when I’m listening to my music and volume at 50% or higher, it sounds like listening to a live band, it’s so clean and clear like having an audiophile headphone over your ears.

I had this same dilemma and settled on a pair of Quad 57's with a small subwoofer. Amazing sound since, when one puts the speakers about 3 feet from the wall, one is in an ideal listening position to listen to these marvelous performers. Like opening a window to a performance. Could always put a small sub in also if desired. Won't work for rock music!!!!!

@paulcreed Sounds like you have a little work to do to get all of that gear into the room. The fact that it will be dedicated means that in all likelihood it should sound great!
Placing gear as low as possible can also pay dividends. Although having the LP12 on a wall mount is probably a good idea. I have mine on a center stand that is very massive ( yes I know that’s not what Linn likes) but I use a Tramp 2 and this seems to alleviate any issues with that. I also place the power supply on a separate lightweight shelf with Harmonix footers beneath it. The WTA arm replaced an Ekos 1 in my set up. It is FAR more transparent and resolving and a lot more precise across the frequency spectrum. The imaging jumped up a notch and the air around instruments was much better delineated. There was a minor loss in bass power but not in bass precision. Overall, a major increase in SQ. Having heard your previous set up with an Aro, I can say that the WTA is a far more precise and accurate sounding arm than the Aro. ( I never like a pivot point bearing on any arm, very easy to hear the chatter as it pivots off the point, IME) To that, I think that the very poor cabling that comes with the Linn arms and the Aro is a real detriment to the table. The Nordost Tyr that I use from the arm to the preamp is in a different league to the stock cables and connectors that come on the Naim and Linn arms. Odd that both Linn and Naim don’t seem to place much emphasis on this highly imperative aspect! Oh, set-up...that’s another thing. I am VERY lucky i have a set up wizard near me, no way i could attempt to set up the table, or the WTA by myself! The WTA is very difficult to set up...and not for the hobbyist like myself to consider! To that I have mounted a Lyra Kleos ( fabulous match) and the set up there needs to be ultra precise to get it to sing. Took my set up wizard hours and hours to do...if that tells you anything.

Don't take this the wrong way, but this is a silly question. Of course you can set up a system in a 12 x 12 room. I have had a great sounding system in a 9 x 11 room that in some ways is better than the same system in my current 11 x 13 room with open closet (no doors) at the back of the room.

Part of the question relies on your hearing. Some people listen more critically and base new setups on something different. Your brain will always hear something different and that can be bad or good. At first ...

I don't use wall treatments. I could use them, but frankly, I have found positioning of speakers to have the biggest payoff. 

I have Vandersteen 3A speakers and some M&K S-1B's and V-1B sub. The 3A's are in a permanent position, and the M&K's are setup for my listening position at the desk. This allows me to maximize the experience while I work during the day, and when I want to enjoy the 3A's, I just move the sats/sub out of the way. The 3A's are almost 3 feet from the back wall and 2 feet from the side, and slightly toed in. With some material, it's like living in a pair of headphones. They sound great. When it gets to hard rock, or congested material, that's when my room size shows weakness. But that is at high volumes. My wife's office is below mine, so that doesn't happen too often. 

Where there is a will, there is a way. I'm just saying. Many have to work with what they have. If I wanted to optimize my room, I would just use small speakers and reduce the audio stacks for more space around everything. But the compromise for me is not to the point I would do that.

Further......


https://s.amsu.ng/FsooNYhMHxaN

GiK for 1st and 2nd reflection points..
Great Bass...Deep Soundstage.
Non fatiguing soundin room.

Yes....

Here is my 12 x 17 room.....

https://s.amsu.ng/yRAKtVlKeCHN

@paulcreed


I have a friend who also has a small room...with the sofa set up for listening and placed in the room with a wall directly behind it.  My friend has tower speakers which he put on furniture sliders so that when he listens, the can position them about 6' from the sofa and about 7' apart.  He has 2 12" sealed subs in the front corners of the room....directly opposite the sofa.  Hardwood floors, drywall and 9' ceilings best describe the room.

The Sound:  In a way, it is almost shocking considering what you know in your brain is going to be a mess of reflections and boominess....but it isn't.  The bass is reasonably tight, defined and low....and no doubt could be even better with 3 or four subs to further smooth out the small room resonances.  As for the mids/highs....you almost get the sense that you are experiencing an all enveloping surround sound....not with pinpoint imaging but also not bright and totally diffuse....and it is a very "live" sound with most music.


My takeaway is that it is easier to get good sound in a bigger room...but it is not impossible to get good sound in a small room.

I am all analogue, FYI. 

I have a perfect 12x12 room as well that I use as my main listening space.  I had terrible luck with it when I moved in ~10 years ago but now have very good sound.  Some things that worked for me:

1. Listening on the diagonal.  Set-up speakers such that you are facing a corner.  The best things about this way is that you will get incredible center fill that is deep.
2. Bass traps in the corners (I do two corners, floor to ceiling with GIK).  If you have slap echo or such (clap your hands, does it reverberate or sound metallic, or does it sound natural) as I do, I would but some additional treatments in the ceiling-wall junction. (I use Auralex LENRD bass traps with push pins to hold in place.)
3.  Play extensively with speaker and chair position.  You will find that bass will vary dramatically depending on speaker and especially chair position.  With my current speakers, I have them nearly pushed to the wall and I listen in the near field such that my chair is almost dead center in the room.  This worked less well with my previous speakers that needed some distance to integrate.

I had to try a few different speakers as my room is on the bright side even with the treatments.  Any brightness in the speaker choice (or other upstream choices) will be amplified.

Best of luck!

Or you could go digital and put in a DSP and never look back. It kind of eliminates the analogue part all together. :)

I’ll keep it short... what works for me in my 8 x 12 room. Two "tricks" that made all the difference:

1. Turn down the bass (a lot.. below 150 hz or so) in one speaker only. this reduces the boom effect caused by close room corners in your small room. Bass is non-directional and will sound so much cleaner. (less corner effect, fewer phase problems in small rooms). Try it!

2. Judicious use of a separate channel equalizer. Necessary to reduce inevitable upper midrange peaks (shrill) exacerbated by close-in walls, even with treatment (especially at higher volume levels) as well as provide the bass control mentioned above.

A smaller room can cause greater differences than amplifier and even speaker selection as you know. Let me know how it works for you!

DO NOT replace equipment. Everything you have is fine. Some people think they need different stuff, which is a fallacy and waste of money. Plus you end up with the same problems as before.

I'm in an 11' X 12' X 8' room. The listening chair is against the back wall. Monitors on stands are 5' 6" from the chair and 56" apart. There is plenty of room behind the speakers and on the sides. The equipment racks are on the (drum-roll, please) front wall! There is a TV there also. Record storage and computer desk are on the sides. Cozy.

Treat the trihedral corners and reflection points on the sides and back wall first. GiK Acoustics will probably start with more than is necessary, but they will be a great help. Talk to John Dykstra, he did a very thoughtful design for my room.  I would do it incrementally because you don't want too much control.
You're starting from scratch so you have the luxury of doing almost any configuration that will fit in that room. Jim Smith (GetBetterSound.com) suggested going to the 45 degree setup, but I would have to tear my room down and start all over. For me the treatments were a better option but if I were doing it from scratch I'd do more homework to design the room correctly from the floor up.

It took a long time to get where I am now and if I had been more thoughtful when I moved in to the room it would be laid out differently and I would have had way less trouble. I thought I would never get it right. I had two modes that were annoying but now I can't believe how good it sounds.

Now I'm going to install two REL T/7i's. They say they will work although I am skeptical. Proper room treatments can make a kids phono sound great (almost).


Rollin

No this is a dedicated room, no tv but may put one on later. There will be a lot of gear going between speakers. 2 amps, preamp, CD player and power supply, Linn turntable on wall shelf with power supply, phono preamp, 2 power conditioner one rack mount and one behind rack. Also a tube amp when I want to swap out. Before I used 3 maple 3 foot racks with 3 shelves each, so between speakers it's full but I had more room since  speakers were father apart. I have a couple amp stands I could use to keep things low and get rid of one of the little racks. Dave I noticed you have well tempered arm on your Linn how do you like it. I had a Naim aro but regretfully sold it, I'm now using a ittok 3 and hot rodded audioquest PT 9. Were you able to mount and set up WT arm yourself or did you have to send it off?

@paulcreed   Cannot help you with home made acoustic treatments, they may or may not work? However, if you look at my system photo, you can get an idea as to how I have placed the room treatments. I also utilize a pair of the excellent Shakti Hallograph's. These tend to focus and extend the soundstage. 
Couch vs. chair...IF you have space in the room with all of the other gear, then I would say it probably doesn't matter. I use a chair, for the simple reason that it gives me more space and it allows me to sit a little higher.
I very much doubt that your new room will be any harder to set up than a 'normal' size room, whatever that is?? BTW, is this going to be a dedicated room..or are you also going to be putting in TV's, beds etc?

Went by new house yesterday and looked at 12x12 room, damn it's small. I have some room treatment from long ago in a box somewhere, can't remember brand. It's not rigged, it is covered in material with reflective on one side and non reflective on other side with some type of batting inside. It has 4 triangle corner traps, 4 4'x1' corner traps and 4 2'x2' panels, never really used them so don't know if they are any good. I have some Corning 703 DIY panels but they will be used in other system so I'm going to make some more. Has anyone ever found a place to buy 703 local, shipping on it is as much as the panels themselves. Does anyone have an idea of how many panels I will need in a room this size. This may sound crazy but I was going to put a leather couch in there but is that reflective also would I be better off with a chair also taking up less air space. I know this is going to be trial and error but I'm guessing this is going to be harder than a normal size room am I correct.

I have a 9 1/2 by 14 feet room with 9 foot ceilings so I too am interested in the advice and example setups in this thread.  My speakers are going to be quite large and honestly too big for the room but I'm hopeful that when installed I can get them dialed in as best I can.

I don’t agree that in a small room speakers always have to be toed in. IME, that is not always the case, and in fact, in my room, I prefer the speakers to be placed straight ahead. (https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/4100) Experimentation is the name of the game here also. The design of the speaker has a lot to do with this aspect.
Also, I do believe that if the equilateral triangle placement can be accomplished, that is preferable.
Lastly, I think that getting the speaker more into the room and off the back wall is going to give you the most depth and imaging precision. Near field listening is the rule in this size of room, there really is no getting around that...which I actually believe is beneficial anyhow.
Rule of thumb...small rooms and small speakers...horses for courses.

I have a small system in my computer room which is about the same size as your room.  My computer desk is right up against the front wall, so I'm very near field.  I have the speakers in the front corners of the room, about 1 foot from the wall and angled towards me at a little less than 45 degrees.  Wood paneling, no treatment (yet, hoping to pick some up this weekend), sounds great!  It doesn't have the sense of scale of my main system, but in terms of sound quality and clarity, it sounds as good, if not better.  Speakers are Harbeth P3ESR and I have a small SVS SB12-NSD sub on the floor next to my desk.

Most people never have the 'ideal' imaging triangle, their listening position, like mine and most of my audiophile friends, is further back than the width of the speakers, by a few feet or more. Usually that is combined with the rear wall being farther back than you will have. 

I have equal triangle in my office, and using small B&W bookshelf speakers with a powered sub, it is quite enjoyable. I get just a bit from the sub, you should only notice it when you turn it off.

Your room will force the near perfect triangle. It's problem is square and rear wall right behind you. You will definitely need to strongly reduce reflections off the rear wall. Less bass from the speakers helps.

Using the smaller speakers, toed in a bit away from side walls, perhaps tilted back a bit (not parallel to floor and ceiling), and only going for 40hz, no port is my suggestion. Then, tame the rear wall. Then, if you want, try a small powered sub, but don't go overboard.

Tweeters at seated ear height, bass below that.

Small size speakers and small size sub to enable alternate positioning. NO PORT!!!!!!

Yes. Also try setting up your system at 45 degrees to a corner 
this eliminates a lot of the dead’s and highs with a square room and setting the sound coming from one end 

We see plenty of systems with the loudspeakers too far from the front wall. Yes, too far. For whatever reason there is a commonly held belief that 2, 3 feet or more is needed for good depth of soundstage. In practice, many loudspeakers can be ideally placed much closer to the front wall with better results in every aspect. Bass, imaging, width of soundstage, and better sound from more listening spots. 

If you would like help just let me know. I can walk you through the process over the phone.

Another thing that you can try is to toe the speakers in so that they cross in front of your listening position.  Looks weird but it can work in some circumstances.

Sure, I'm getting excellent sound in my temporary apartment in a room roughly that size. Obviously speaker dependent.  fear not!

I’ve got a system set up against a 12ft short wall and on the living room end of a long (almost hallway-like) dining/living room space (old 2/1 bungalow, baby). Locked into that position as the entire length is mid-flanked by the fireplace and entry way/front door. At first I thought t would be too much, but with even minor room adjustments, it’s really pretty nice. Definitely seems, however, small treatments make an almost exponential difference, that part has been tricky. Had to work with the wifey on “compromises” ie blanket ladder, hell yes!...huge mirror, hell no!!...etc.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7605

My office is the same size as your room and it sounds pretty amazing now. I am going to put a new system in there since I figured out how to tame the room. I am looking at a few small floor standers and also very large bookshelf speakers as the next speaker for this room.

I started a thread last December that helped me figure out how to tame this room. I was considering using DSP along with acoustic treatments, however, now I think acoustic treatments is all I need. Tone controls maybe useful in the next preamp I get.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/big-speakers-in-small-room-at-moderate-volume-levels

Another consideration is speakers that are designed for placement very close to the wall or even the corners that will give you more room in the room for your listening space. 

I moved from a 26x18 room to a 11x14 room and found the larger system would just not work in the smaller room so I went to smaller stand mount monitors ( Sonus Fabers) that worked well with some room treatment. after a year I got a set of AudioNote ANE's and they sat in the corners and gave me the bass back I was missing from the monitors and with the room treatment sounded great. I had an open double door behind my chair so I was able to get back further from the speakers. 

It all depends. If its any consolation, I have 2 very different 12X12 rooms set up pretty well these days. One in particular is especially challenging, the other not so much. So yes it can be done. Way more things will work well in a small room compared to a large one. The key to any room offering tight quarters is often that less = more. With that in mind, just try different things and see what works out best.

Whenever quarters are tight and the listening position cannot be far from speakers, I tend to steer away from larger speakers with widely spaced drivers, like many but not all tower designs. Those usually require farther distance to listening position for the drivers to mesh properly.

In my tougher room, my wife’s acoustically challenged sun room with hard tile floor,  lots of windows and cathedral ceiling, I’ve settled currently on a pair of Vanatoo Transparent One Encore speakers (on very short isolating floor stands located near corners and angled up slightly) that work fabulously well in there. They also happen to be the smallest and least expensive speakers I’ve ever tried in there.

My other room is more conventional size and construction (couch near rear wall also) and my main gear is located there. Currently I run a pair of Kef ls50s with a separate powered sub there, but I’ve run many other suitable monitors and floor standers there as well also with very good results over the years.

@paulcreed  In my room, my listening chair is placed against the back wall..with no detriment to the SQ. I have placed absorption panels on the back wall and do have a vault ceiling, which obviously helps. Listening in the near field should allow the speakers to totally disappear in the soundstage, I get tremendous precision of musicians on the stage..and plenty of depth. The hardest part about a small room is the bass response...which will require a lot of trial and error, and in my instance dual small subs. Nonetheless, IME you won’t get very deep bass regardless, although I have managed clean to 35hz.
One other thing you probably will not get is large scale...this seems to be a requirement to large floor standing speakers, which won’t work in these types of small rooms. Precision is the name of the game here, and something I would not want to trade for scale.

Paul,

I had to relocate my system into my daughters old bedroom which is 12x12x8. My speakers are placed about 3-1/2 ft from the front wall and 3 ft from the sides walls so the speakers are 6 ft apart. My sitting position is about 1-1/2 ft from the back wall and approximately 6-1/2 ft from each speaker. I installed wall to wall carpeting. 
I use GIK bass traps on the front corners and placed 2’x4’x4” panels at the side reflection points that also help with the bass. I placed 2 2’x4’x2” panels behind my sitting position half way between the ceiling and the floor.

The results are better than I expected. The bass is tight without sounding boomy and the room is still lively without sounding bright. I tried extreme toe-in but it caused the bass to sound boomy.
If you have any question please send me a PM. Ron

My biggest concern is couch directly on back wall, I would think I need to pull it out into the room, am I wrong? Problem is there's not much room to pull couch into. I'm very glad to hear many have success in smaller than average rooms, I do feel better knowing that. This system was in bigger room and speakers disappeared. if I place myself near field will I hear music coming from speaker or will they disappear. When I place myself near field with this system in bigger room I hear the speaker, there is still imaging but not the same type of sound stage.

I think you can get a system together that will sound pretty good if you accept limitations in terms of bass response.  The biggest issue I have run into is not being able to get adequate space between the speakers (9' minimum is ideal) and distance from back wall. 

Many speakers have minimal issue in terms of near wall placement.  If you can be 8' away from speakers that are 9' apart and are 2' from the back wall...you should be in a good spot.  

You might consider setting up the system on the diagonal. Will the couch fit that way?  I know of several users who get better results that way in square rooms.

Nice to have a 9-foot ceiling!

If you are able to set up a nearfield listening position...you probably won't have to turn the volume up as much as if you were 10' away which will reduce some of the unwanted reflections and give you a better overall sound...this would be a good place to start because the investment is zero...and then if you aren't happy with the sound you can start exploring treatments.

I'm using Magnepan LRS with and without their DWM woofer and sounds great in similar room.  Chairs, bookcases, area rugs, wall hangings, all kinds of free room treatments available...very do-able !!!

From everything I've read, square rooms are very challenging,but doable. You'll need to treat your room. Take the advice of the above posters. 

Primacoustic panels at all first reflection points (all four walls plus ceiling). Alternately, setup on a 45* axis. 
Obviously, this mandates a dedicated room to try the "45".
My dedicated room is also almost square, almost 14x14.
Sounds wonderful (only after the treatments placed).

Tom

I'm in a 9x9 room. A pair of Paradigm Studio 60 v.3 speakers, SA 8260 SACD player, and a temporary Cambridge Audio 100 wpc receiver. Wouldn't trade anything but the Cambridge (as soon as my integrated gets repaired) and I'm content with the SQ. 
  I wouldn't worry about what it MIGHT sound like, set it up, adjust the speaker placement and enjoy. You may be surprised.

My system sits in a 10 x11 room. Look at my system thread. With the judicious application of room treatments and careful speaker placement...and naturally a near field listening position, I believe a great SQ can be had. I am VERY happy with my SQ. 

Brother in law gets fantastic sound in a similar but not square room with Vandersteen 1ci , MoFi Ultradeck and a VTL integrated.... yes it is very possible

GIK Acoustics.