Incredible Audiophile Imaging -- at a Concert!

Here's the image of the venue during setup:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fgcgywHFiIYuEPfARIOhVJpXYk2bfOo5/view?usp=sharing

My issue is that I'd not want to hear a 70' wide keyboard, I want my home stereo or concert experience to present life size images. This sounds like spectacle and special effects rather than life like presentation, may be interesting like pyrotechnics, but not realistic or humanistic, not my cup of tea.

What a cool venue.

While a 70 foot keyboard may not be realistic, I have no doubt the effect was very enjoyable.  i suspect you answered your own question.  The keys probably were very careful miking with along with attention to detail.  The system looks clean and simple unlike some of the monstrous sound reinforcement systems we have all seen. Maybe this was the sound reinforcement equivalent of the SET amp/full range driver set up that can image so well.

Anyway, thanks for sharing this unique experience.

I guess you'll have pros and cons, about the effect.i would like to hear it either atchome...but really inperson...WoW.

Try this tune. Same effect. It is enjoyable in small doses.

https://tidal.com/browse/track/97240315?u

Very cool.  You never know what you will hear until you hear it.  Live concerts provide useful references to help keep the insanity in check. Enjoy!

@sns 

You bring up a very good point. Some folks want to hear a sonic spectacular and some folks want to hear the real thing. Here lies one of the fundamental differences in manufacturers of equipment as well. You have Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, etc on the reproduce natural music precisely and then you have Burmeister, Rowland, etc that work to do sonic spectacular. 

I held season tickets to the Oregon Symphony 7th row center for a decade. Then a couple years ago they installed a whole hall DSP system to make concerts sound better. It completely destroyed the natural musical sound... the violins hardened. the bass became too dominant. The snare drums came from behind the seating. I discussed it with management of the hall. No idea what I was talking about. I brought a professional sound engineer and musician to a concert... he was appalled and appealed to management. They discussed with the consulting firm... and made a couple changes with no improvements. Multi million dollar system that destroyed the sound. Can you imagine being twenty five feet from a world class violinist with a Stradivarius and hearing it spread across the sound stage, hardened and distorted by DSP. I thought for classical concerts they would  turn it off... but no such luck. I guess when you bought a multimillion dollar sound system you have to use it. 

My system at home sounds much better... hence no reason to go to the symphony any more. 

@sns +2 I agree not my cup of coffee. 

Thanks for sharing this experience.

Mike

Thank you all for the responses!

@g2the2nd Thanks for the link. Yes, a very similar effect. It’s not "real sounding", much in the same way that many producers / sound engineers are fond of panning the drum kit all the way across the sound stage. But nonetheless interesting.

@sns I realize that the way I described it, it sounds like it was very in-your-face. But it was more subtle than that. It was a very gestalt-like thing. It was in part why it took a couple of songs to perceive it. You could listen to the concert as a whole and not notice it (and in fact none of the 9 other people I was with -- of which one other was a musician -- noticed it). But once you shifted into hearing it (much like those 1980’s-era stereogram photos where you cross your eyes to see the 3D image), then you could bask in this virtual keyboard.

@corelli Yes I like the SET / full range driver analogy. I think the sheer simplicity of this sound system, the absence of the complications of reflection, and the sound engineers’ maniacal attention to detail all combined in this uber-cool way...

@ghdprentice  Incredible story!  Dumfounds me that these so called sound engineers can be so deaf and clueless as to their destruction of the music.  Hard to believe you can make a living destroying the very essence of the product you are bringing to the public.  But then, if you look around, that kind of thing is all too common now a days.  So, on second thought, sadly maybe I am not so surprised.

I have attended broadway productions locally where sound engineers totally destroyed the event.  Don’t you just love it when they jack things between 2-3khz to the point where your ears bleed!  Couldn’t wait to get home.  Sounded SO much better on my home system.

@corelli

+1

Sad, but often true.

@ghdprentice 

Profoundly sad to eliminate the natural sounds.  Have you been to Lincoln Center?

While the piano may sound 70 feet wide and therefore unrealistic, is the "listening arc" really any wider than that sitting in your living room?

I’ve heard plenty of piano recordings where the sound appears to go well beyond the speakers and certainly much wider than an actual piano in the room unless maybe I was sitting at the keyboard.

This may be what the artist intended, then it isn't wrong. Sometimes a piano even can sound a lot bigger than it is , if in the right type of environment..

Some of you may be interested in the Editorial in the July/August issue of TAS, "A Stunning Breakthrough in Live Sound".  It describes the sound system in The Sphere in Las Vegas. Apparently, it delivers on the title of this thread, "Incredible Audiophile Imaging -- at a Concert!".  I’d love to experience it but don’t know when I will.

No I have not experienced the Lincoln Center. Although I have been to various great halls in various places. I grew up in Chicago... although the Chicago symphony hall is not one of them... unfortunately, that one is a let down. 

@ghdprentice  Commiserations on suffering fools. On a less grand scale, I used go to a small jazz club where the boys were in a corner of the space on a little raised platform. The music was unamplified and sounded wonderful. Needless to say, a well-meaning idiot invested in amplification and a small desk and wretched speakers on tripods. The result was a complete removal of timbre, color and delicacy–replaced with brash, chromium, shouty noise. No one complained and anyone I spoke to in the audience thought the new sound was awesome. 

I apologize to the OP i had posted in the wrong thread then i deleted my above post...

@g2the2nd Thanks for the sample; the effect I'd relate it to is getting to be behind the pianist with the other players about the piano.  Your and others observations will vary, obviously. 😏
One could say 'nuevo 901's' and not be too far off.... *L*

Yes, the mics matter, the effect as an omni and dipole sort is the 'imagery' mentioned above.  When I had a set of surround Walsh, it gets spooky. No DSP, just some eq tweaks...  *G*

@noromance I've been to some sim venues that opted to 'overdrive' said spaces.
What typically happens is the clientele ends up talking louder as the db's rose.

Recent b'day gift by spouse was a string quartet playing covers of some iconic rock songs in a candle-lit stage decorated with branches and twigs.

Very 'gentile' and pleasant, some dressed for the symphony....

Spouse caught a good one... ;)  And no electronics involved. 👍

This is what we get at home in a good setting  with good synergy and excellent recordings , good equipment and lots of trial and error .

Have you read the article in The Absolute Sound about The Sphere in Las Vegas. The reviewer was blown away. It’s a sound system from German Holoplot 😀 

@ghdprentice +1000!

I’ve attended rock concerts in theaters with fancy new DSP systems and the sound was unlistenable. Especially when the systems get overdriven. I heard Tedeschi Trucks band at the Warner theater where I literally couldn’t tell the sound of a slide guitar from any other instrument. Hard, huge amount of high frequency distortion. The Warner Theater is very proud of their new system, especially in db level matching over the entire theater. In truth it’s awful.

Good friend of mine runs a sound reinforcement business and occasionally engineers in the studio. Introduced me to the audiophile world via Dynaco and Linn LP12 setup at his parents home way back in the dayl. Anyway he went into sound reinforcement so all his audio investments went into pro audio equipment, and this not cheap stuff, we're talking custom builds, multi tens of thousands dollar equipment. I've never heard amplified/sound reinforcement concert sound done better, he doesn't overdrive his equipment trying to get maximum volume, actually hear things like timbre and tonality with various instruments. He does virtually all genres, jazz and blues guys especially like him, does a lot of reggae down in the Caribbean, occasionally rock. Back in the day, we were big concert goers, never understood why the sound quality had to be so bad, overly loud, distorted sound seems to be required protocol at live concerts to this day. Most live music has never been my reference for sound quality, smaller  venue, minimal amplification, or the way my friend does it only way to go. 

As for sound extending outside speakers, this doesn't create an exaggerated size center image in any audio system I've assembled. Yes, there may be sound ques that go beyond the speakers but center image maintains a reasonable size. Devoid those ques, image outlines would be too tightly drawn, real life images blend into surrounding space, this how you want home stereo to sound. 

@ghdprentice  Thanks for that post,  which really made me think.  One thing irritating to me is the concept of audio engineers deciding for me what I want to hear.  It's one thing to be sitting in your home with different parts of the keyboard spread across your room and wondering how the thing was miked as opposed to a live venue and be finding the natural sound of a performance not just enlarged, but rather "enhanced" by sonic manipulation.  Obviously someone else decided for me what I wanted to hear.  With a recording it is, admittedly, something different, although I prefer a simpler two-mike or similar technique.  I do like to imagine an actual group playing in front of me, but that's a pretty rare deal nowadays and you just have to ignore what's going on otherwise and focus on the music.  Having that happen when the artists are actually playing right in front of you is something else:  you're not listening to them, you're listening to the speakers. 

Was the piano a real instrument, or an electronic keyboard?

If it was a real instrument, most likely the vibrating strings inside it were arranged in a fairly complex pattern, with the low note strings running diagonally under the midrange strings.  In other words, the acoustic, unamplified instrument does not arrange for low notes to be on the left

Was it a concert grand piano, or an upright?  If a concert grand, was the soundboard (lid) closed, open or removed completely?  Was there just one microphone for the piano, or two, or a whole array?

Most likely the sound engineers electronically panned the piano sound based on frequency.  Incredible sound.  Unbelievable sound.  Indeed, but I for one prefer believable sound

For years, I worked along side the electric unions that set up sound for a ton of shows.  Most of the time, the act sent people to check out the venues and then plan out every inch of cable and every watt. The Rolling Stones put up a really elaborate show in many sports domes and it was amazing how most of them really sounded great!

It’s a science!

So the piano was a grand, possibly a concert grand, opened. It was heavily mic'ed, at least 3 close to the keyboard and 1 or 2 for ambience. My belief is that it was very carefully mixed and panned based on microphones, but not panned based on frequency. It was super clean sounding, and did not have the digital hash which is the hallmark of most DSP systems.

Again, this was more of a gestalt thing. You could listen to the sound holistically without hearing this L to R pan effect, but if you focused on the L to R aspect of the keyboard, you got that clearly. My friends did not notice this. Maybe my hearing is just very visual. I only got it when I listened with my eyes closed.

I guess I am strange in that, if the sound is clean and deliberate, I am inclined to like the presentation. I assume it's what the artist wanted. Not everything has to sound like Jazz at the Pawnshop to be enjoyed. I do enjoy great imaging, but I can also enjoy a manufactured soundstage as well. I won't refuse to listen to music that does not meet some uncompromising ideal of recording standards. 

I understand @ghdprentice 's lamentations with DSP messing up the sound at the symphony, and completely sympathize. I hate artificial sound. But when it appears to be what the artist wants, and is very clean (again, telegraphing intent), then I enjoy it as the artist intends...

What is a shame is that an symphonic orchestra in a good orchestra hall can create sounds at the limit of hearing all the way to well over 100db... crescendos would frequently be louder than I would ever choose to listen... for effect. So the symphony was the place that was natural and amplification was completely unnecessary. 

Rock concerts, plays, other, sure. 

+100 @ghdprentice 

@corelli  As the house audio guy at a major Las Vegas venue for near 10 years, I saw lots and lots of A-list acts and how their FOH engineer used our system, (JBL line array + D&B subs).  Some used analog consoles, PM4000, XL4, Venice, EX56, etc., and of course lots of digital consoles from Midas, Yamaha, Avid, Digico, etc., and I experienced some awesome results, and some that were an absolute train wreck.  This theater was properly designed for rock shows, but we had Norah Jones, and David Gray, and Mariachi, and across all genres, rock bands tended to have worst results, but Jackson Browne sounded great and Korn was a wash of sound.

OT, Rick Beato did a great interview with Dave Natale if any of you are interested in learning a bit more about live sound reproduction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIBYcExFZ2Y

but Jackson Browne sounded great

@tonyrox Not surprising. Jackson Browne is absolutely fastidious about his sound. Listen, for example, to how clean and meticulous the sound is on the live album "Love is Strange" with David Lindley...

OT, nice Beato vid with Dave Natale!

I am not so sure I would ever consider that "audiophile imaging" could be reproduced with amplifiers and sound reinforcement speakers, at a live concert.  

Here in LA, at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art, we used to have these free classical concerts in a great venue, The Bing Theater, on the museum grounds. They were called "Sunday’s Live" and they occurred every week.

The venue was specifically designed for live classical music, with fantastic acoustics. And other than the mic used to introduce the the performances, no other amplification existed. 

If one sat in the first third to half of the theater, one experienced REAL imaging. As in, if a violinist sounded as if they were coming from the left part of the stage, a percussionist sounded like they were coming from behind the other musicians, a pianist sounded like they were in the middle of the stage, etc., that is because that is exactly where they were located while playing. And their instrument sounded exactly how big they actually are.

They didn’t sound like they were to the right or left because that is where the FOH engineer decided to pan them on their mixing board.

And as far as a piano sounding like it is 70’ wide, as the OP describes, for me that is the exact opposite of accurate, audiophile imaging. 

The idea behind good imaging, is to reproduce the instruments at their correct size in relation to the rest of the instruments, in correct space (left/right, front/back), and a reasonable facsimile of size in reality. 

Speaking in general, not specifically to the OP, I personally believe, that modern audiophiles are doing themselves a disservice by not listening to classical music. If for no other reason, than to hear what actual good imaging is. 

I have classical recordings, where the image and soundstage is so holographic (sorry for the use of an audiophile cliché), that I can easily imaging myself getting off my listening chair and walking among the musicians, to the point where I can even tell how far apart they are from each other, and how much space they occupy. 

I own plenty of studio recorded rock recordings, some are quite famous in the audiophile world, and despite being recorded extremely well, none of them create an image and soundstage like the type I mentioned above with regards to classical recordings. 

The now defunct Bing.

Amazing venue, must have been special...

I saw Phish at the Sphere in Vegas last year and it was definitely the best sound I've ever heard in a large venue by far... Behind the world's largest display they have  167k individually amplified drivers and its the clearest cleanest jaw dropping concert at a large venue I've ever heard..

That being said I live near the Disney Hall in LA and I've seen so many shows in that venue which is one of the best sounding rooms on Earth, and it doesn't matter where you sit

I couldn’t make out any brand labels on the line array,

but was wondering if it was L-Acoustics.  They’re very popular in Europe.  
Doing a search on that area and L-Acoustics, here’s what came up from AI search:

“No music festivals in Ammaia, near Portugal and Spain, that specifically mention using L-Acoustics were found in the provided search results.

However, L-Acoustics sound systems are widely used at music festivals worldwide. In fact, L-Acoustics sound systems are utilized at seven of the top ten highest-grossing festivals globally. 

While not mentioning Ammaia specifically, several music festivals in Portugal and Spain have used L-Acoustics equipment:

• World Youth Day (Lisbon, Portugal): Featured over 1,000 L-Acoustics loudspeakers, deployed by Pixel Light, to provide clear and intelligible sound to a massive audience.
• NOS Alive (Lisbon, Portugal): L-Acoustics has been associated with this festival.
• Rolling Loud Festival (Germany debut): Used L-Acoustics K Series loudspeakers for its debut in Germany, demonstrating its suitability for large-scale hip-hop festivals.
• Puy du Fou España (Spain):Multiple shows at this park, including "El Último Cantar", utilize L-Acoustics systems, with L-ISA Immersive Hyperreal installations in particular enhancing the experience.
• Baluarte Congress Palace (Spain):Its main auditorium features an L-Acoustics L Series professional sound system, specifically L2D line arrays, which addressed coverage challenges and sustainability goals. 

It’s important to note that L-Acoustics systems are renowned for their quality, consistency, and ability to handle various musical genres, making them a popular choice for festivals and events globally. If a festival were to be held in Ammaia, it would be plausible for L-Acoustics to be among the sound systems considered, given their reputation and extensive use in the region.”

I went to many concerts over the past  50+ years, of just about every venue. Most all of the Pop. Rock and Country performances were loud, engaging and entertaining, but very few I would consider to be well imaged.

Live orchestral performances in a good hall, where you could hear all the instruments and their sections in their spaces, yes. And small chamber, jazz, or acoustic pop  performances, I also could appreciate as being well imaged.

While I still enjoy a live performance from time to time, I mostly enjoy the imaging and performance of the music I love at home, at a controlled volume that my old ears can handle.

Jim

Open area of course helps a lot but normally amplification and speakers are not  in concerts cannot be compared with good home audio system. Your experience was more an exception than a rule.

Love live concerts....Lincoln Center yes many times the first time I was 13 in drama class at my high school and my English drama teacher took a bunch of us...Wow the Music from the orchestra was Fabulous. This teacher was great he took us to Bway Shows ,I saw Barbara Streisand in a,musical.Funny Girl.....