" It can never sound great because your speakers aren't tuned to your ears ..."
love,
Kenjit
If it sounds 'great', everything is ok?
G'day to all
Given that the listener has at least a good average hearing: If the sound quality from a record sounds 'great' to his ears, the various settings of the tone arm and cartridge (VTF, etc.) are correctly set.
Right or wrong?
Thanks for your inputs.
Cheers, eagledriver
45 responses Add your response
Ears beat measurements, but it's always worth hearing other systems to see if your overall balance might be better. Also, room acoustics are things which many dont' know they need until they've heard a great sounding room. Some may never care. I know some "audiophiles" that absolutely refuse to invest in room treatments on some moral principle. Good luck to them. :) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
That’s great, for a while, however if something(s) off, inaudible.un-noticable now, there is the potential for future deterioration. IMO, everyone should acquire the basic inexpensive tools, and learn to mount and align a cartridge. Then make periodic checks. .........................................................
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Of course we will try to overcomplicate this. But I think that’s a fair rule of thumb to simplify the 1-million-variable complexity of vinyl setups: if is sounds really good, it probably isn’t too far off the mark on anything. Maaaybe VTF and anti-skate can get into "you shouldn’t do that" territory without being overtly audibly bad. But VTF is super easy to check & re-check, and anti-skate should be applied sparingly. You might add some conditions, too:
I got a new Fluance RT85 a few years ago that sounded obviously "wrong" on first listen. There was a significant Left / Right imbalance, plus additional sonic problems, almost like the channels were a bit out of phase. Then I looked at the headshell, and the factory-installed Ortofon 2M Blue was clearly mis-aligned in the shell: it had a significant offset angle deviation, when the cantilever was straight. Squaring it in the headshell 100% fixed the sound. I forget if I even bothered to verify alignment on any of my tools lol. It still sounds good to this day. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
If you're happy, you're happy. That's probably a truism or some egregious and simplistic error to philosophers, but I'll stand by it. The only problem comes along when you want to compare your sound (and thus, your happiness) with that of others. Then it all gets complicated. Many, many more of us (I include myself) should stop worrying and | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Having over the decades occasionally found that I had been happily listening to a system that was later found to be out of whack in a major way, I would say the short answer to the OP is "no". But some imperfections of set-up or function are OK to leave alone. Or, don't worry; be happy. As time goes on, you will chip away at what you have in search of the elusive quality known as perfection. They say Michelangelo could "see" his images even in a virgin lump of marble. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
So far, many thanks to all of you for your time and effort in answering to my question. Which is acutally a question from a friend living 200 miles south. I have some knowledge regarding this topic (and 4 different tt's in operation) but I know you might have even more (knowledge). So, I am glad you are supporting me. Special thanks to @vonhelmholtz Since you are happy with what you have, why not ask if incorrectly setup tonearm/cartridge will damage a record? @mulveling (....) if is sounds really good, it probably isn’t too far off the mark on anything. Maaaybe VTF and anti-skate can get into "you shouldn’t do that" territory without being overtly audibly bad. But VTF is super easy to check & re-check, and anti-skate should be applied sparingly. You might add some conditions, too:
As to the main raison of my friend's question. It appears that the tracking force he has applied is around 1gr higher than recommended in the user guide of the Ortofon MM Black. However, he measured VTF with a digital scale. And this not a good idea as his tt is a Cleraudio with magnetic tone arm. Despite the 2.9gr the digital scale is showing, he says the sound quality is 'super' to his ears. I assume that the 2.9gr is an incorrect reading. I will recommend to use a basic analog scale ("seesaw" model) and to compare this value with the other one given by the digital scale. If VTF is really way too high, vonhelmholtz's comment comes into play If the sound quality is 'super' to my friends ears, is it possible that the VTF is far away from being correctly set? --> coming back to my initial question. Best regards, eagledriver
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The Clearaudio magnetic bearing arms are far enough away from the VTF scale that it should not affect the measurement at all. However these arms are extremely sensitive to footfalls (or feedback) and require meticulous isolation to work well - but if you’re concrete slab they should be OK. Yes, it’s perfectly possible the VTF is actually 2.9g and still sounds good. That might even be smoothing over issues with the magnetic arm (which I’m definitely not a fan of - especially the Concept and Clarify models. If he has a Magnify, that one is a hybrid and I like it much better). 2.9g won’t hurt anything in the immediate short term, but you really do want to verify and adjust that down to 2.0g max. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Most of these digital scales come with a 1 gm weight to use to check it's accuracy. Perhaps your friend forgot it came with one. modern cartridge tracking 2.9 g ain't good. Can sound good now, however it needs to be properly checked, soon. One of the criteria I look for is light tracking force. Less wear on both stylus and grooves, IF it can stay in the groove which is not always easy. Shure's always went for 'trackibility', their last great MM was V15Vxmr, it tracked between 1.0 and 1.5, I used 1.25. Stiffest Ever: Beryllium cantilever with MicroRidge Stylus. I looked sideways at my Beryllium cantilever and it shattered (I dropped it about 1"). AT440ml tracks 1.25 Current AT33PTG/II MC tracks at 2.0g
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from Shure 1954 bulletin "the downward pressure of the stylus tip on the record groove. The greater this pressure the greater the amount of friction generated between the walls of the record groove and the stylus tip. Increased friction naturally results in increased wear." adding 1 gm over specs ain't good! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
There are going to be opposing views on the dangers of high VTF. Some would say it's better for the stylus to remain firmly seated in the groove, even at a bit too high a VTF, versus being too light and risking mis-tracking, or even bouncing around in/out of the groove. If I found out I'd been running a cartridge at 2.9g for (say) a week by accident, I'd correct it but wouldn't sweat the "what ifs" about whether damage may have occurred. Quite frankly I'm surprised an Ortofon 2M could hit 2.9g without bottoming out, since they're already low riders by nature and have fairly compliant suspensions. FWIW Ortofon's high-end MC's are spec'd to track as high as 2.5g or 2.6g, and I think some SPUs may be even beyond that. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
@elliottbnewcombjr Sorry, the obsession with low tracking weight ended decades ago. Record wear is much exaggerated. With MCs tracking at around 2.5g I have never heard it on any of my records. We all accept stylus wear is inevitable and not much affected by an extra 0.4g of weight. To start with always observe the manufacturer's advice on tracking weight. Set up with weight in the middle of his range. If it doesn't track cleanly add weight 0.1g at a time until it does. If it already does, lower it 0.1g at a time and see if it tracks securely. Stop if you reach the bottom of his range. If you hear the slightest mistracking, especially on high level, high frequency programme then add 0.2g back on and leave it. Apart from poorer sound, more damage is done to records and stylus by mis-tracking at too light weight than by tracking at a few 0.1gs more. Always use enough weight to track securely. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
@ashoka Enjoy listening to your steaks. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I know that if I took my car to a service center,paid good money for a service and was told that they did it by ’feel’. When they ’felt good’ about the intervention, that was all the car needed. I would feel ripped off.
If I went to catch a commercial jetliner and they said that the pilot didn’t learn how to fly. The new policy is that they abandon the instruments and do it by ’feel’. No training neccessary. I would never fly again.
If you aren’t serious about cartridge set up and want to do it by ’feel’. Go ahead. It is your property. Do what you wish. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
clearthinker everything's relative. your example: .4g extra on 2.5g is +16% 1. 2M Black specs say track at 1.4 to 1.7g. 2.9 g is +1.2g, which is +71% of OEM's max tracking force. Something else is wrong if this extra 71% is needed. ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; Not only more wear on it's expensive Shibata tip, and more wear on the grooves: it must be restricting the proper movement without and within. the suspension/compliance/magnet movement within the body are in no way close to their design parameters. ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; Cantilever Material? Ortofon info does not mention it. I found a 2M LVB 250 upgrade that has Boron. I therefore 'presume' 2M Black is Aluminum. It won't take much time for that aluminum cantilever to deflect from the extra weight, becoming a 'low rider', WRONG VTA will result. ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; His entire TT setup needs to be re-evaluated. TT Deck level? Platter Level to Deck; Arm properly mounted: proper Spindle to Pivot, parallel/perpendicular to the deck/platter. Cartridge: overhang, two null points alignment, proper cartridge tightening; Arm height (parallel to LP when in the groove. Azimuth from Front, VTA from side when in he groove. Now factory tracking force; now anti-skate. ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; This is exactly why I recommend everybody acquire the simple tools, and practice setup until they find it is not as hard as anticipated. Or make friends with someone nearby; or pay someone to set it up in your home. Where does your friend live? Perhaps a member here lives nearby. Anywhere near Plainfield, NJ? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
though I also know people who were "happy" with their system's sound until they heard something they actually liked a lot more, and wasn't expensive...,so it's also very relative to knowing what your options actually are...so maybe it sounds great, but might sound "greater" if properly set up - either way, no worries... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Thanks a lot for your assessement and advise. It will be helpful to my friend, as well as other comments. I agree that 71% more VTC as recommended by Ortofon appears to be a bit too much (Wear and tear on the cartridge and stylus). My friend needs to invest some quiet time to get the right things done, if he does not want to replace the cartridge after a few month. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
@dill here here ... Yaaaaaay!
One thing I love about hanging out around here is when you ask for the benefit of others expertise in the hobby, as long as you do it without being a complete d**k, folks show up pretty quickly with the right answers.
I'm not into vinyl, but love to read some of these threads too, because it's always fun to learn, right? And who knows, I might be able to at least get in a good barb in, Lol.
my input on this matter: first of all, there's no such thing as a stupid question. I'm, personally, glad you had the courage to ask, because I guarantee you others had the exact same Q. And I have some other heavy wisdom to lay on you. I haven't been at this nearly as long as a lot of others around here, and admittedly I don't tweak much anymore because I'm real pleased with the sound I'm getting out of my system, but I've done my fair share and have come to the conclusion that it's part of the fun of the hobby. So have fun tweakin. Because that's one of the ways we learn. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
It's not "OK" to assume you're system sounds great...you need to fuss incessantly over tiny details, spend a small or large fortune on hyperbole festooned gear, fill your listening space with sound absorbing ugly stuffings, and take as fact the meandering nonsense of people who have no idea what you like or what your system sounds like. Then face the fact that it's never going to sound as fabulous as anybody else's system and simply give up. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
my turntable sounds great too, but I regularly have a skilled friend with ALL the tools recalibrate it regularly (he enjoys doing this)...not sure if it sounds better, but technically it always needs some adjustment...I like knowing it's set up correctly...I did just use some maple dowel hole buttons as recommended by Pierre of Mapleshade, and things do sound better (at $9.99 for a bag of 50)...lots of tweaks are easy, fun and cost nothing... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
eagledriver_22Switzerland, a land of precision: terrific, he must have a friend who knows about TT setup. Clearaudio ’Clarify’ Tonearm Manual (example, what arm does your friend have?) https://clearaudio.de/_assets/_pdf/manuals/tonearms/CA_Clarify_E+D.pdf?d=1667911999 other arms here https://clearaudio.de/en/products/tonearms.php They recommend a digital gauge to set stylus force (no interference with magnetic bearing, no ’seesaw’ type needed. Presumably the arm was installed by a pro, and is correct. Hopefully the alignment template was provided to your friend. IF NOT, I would request a template from Clearaudio. The manual/template shows everything you need to know about mounting the arm, the cartridges’ overhang; and cartridges’ two null point alignments. arm height a single set screw from the side of the base plate. to align azimuth, there is a set screw in the bottom of the arm tube near it’s head ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; anti-skate is inconveniently located below the plinth. manual page 14 level via adjustable feet must be maintained while in adjustment position with 1 corner ’in outer space’ for access to adjustment screw below. then level re-confirmed when TT moved back to operating location. After confirmation of arm and cartridge: IF the cartridge will not track within the specified range 1.4g to 1.7g something is wrong, EVEN IF it sounds GREAT. Note: anti-skate needs to be reduced to zero from below BEFORE adjusting tracking force; then add tracking force; then back below to ’add’ anti-skate as final setting. Note: ANY subsequent adjustment of tracking force: anti-skate needs to be reduced to zero again, tracking force set; anti-skate set. ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; basic confirmation: 1. suppose arm mounting and cartridge mounting (overhang/two null points), azimuth, arm height are verified correctly. (or correct them). 2. anti-skate needs to be reduced to zero before step 3. 3. tracking force set to 1.7g max with digital gauge 4. ’add’ anti-skate. a. blank disc method b. Clearaudios’ Trackability Test Record We recommend the Clearaudio Trackablity Test Record available from www.analogshop.de or from your specialist retailer for a professional and perfect anti-skating setting.
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Thank you for all these detailed information. We are talking about the Verify arm. And yes, the alignment template is available. There is one BIG difference between the anti skating screw/knob of the Clearaudio Concept and the ROWEN TT1: The screw on the latter has no zero marker. So, it will be necessary to figure zero anti skate first in order to be able to set VTF correctly. I will provide an update as soon as I have received feedback from my friend.
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prior post: "as his tt is a Clearaudio with magnetic tone arm." quick look at Verify Arm, anti-skate, pg 15, also from below. https://clearaudio.de/_assets/_pdf/manuals/tonearms/CA_Verify_E+D.pdf?d=1667911999 when they say counterclockwise is weaker, I would interpret that -5 full turns is fully weak/ZERO Why did you mention Rowen TT1? Is it a variation of Clearaudio? Made for them by Clearaudio? https://www.rowen.ch/en/data/rowen_tt1.php Confusion: Clearaudio has a TT1 arm .You don’t need anti-skate on Linear Tracking Tonearms https://clearaudio.de/_assets/_pdf/manuals/tonearms/CA_Statement_TT1_E.pdf?d=1671461176 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Just one teeny, weeny thing: Back up the thread, Elliott recommended to set AS to equal VTF or some high percentage of VTF. With all respect to E, most agree that the AS force should be set to some small fraction of VTF. In another concurrent thread, you can read where Mijostyn has calculated that AS should be precisely 11% of VTF. I am not necessarily in agreement with his dogmatism on the subject, especially since he built a Rube Goldberg device to measure AS that none of the rest of us has, but I do agree that he is in the ballpark. (Wally make an AS measuring device, too.) There are a lot of ways to set AS, but what I do is to first listen to a representative LP without any AS. I typically hear distortion in the R channel with no AS. I then add AS in very tiny increments only until that distortion disappears. So you could say I do it by ear. But VTF = AS in magnitude is definitely too much AS. One problem I have with tonearms that have a dial setting for AS, usually marked in numbers from 0 to 5, or something like that, is that we don't know what those numbers mean. The dial setting is typically found where AS is done magnetically. Do the numbers refer to "grams" of AS? Or are the numbers to be correlated with grams of VTF, where 2g of VTF is to correlate with setting the dial to 2. Because 2g of AS, which is applied at the pivot is not equal to 2g applied at the headshell. To me this is another reason to do it by ear. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
'Why did you mention Rowen TT1? Is it a variation of Clearaudio? Made for them by Clearaudio?' Sorry for the confusion.. https://www.rowen.ch/en/index.php ROWEN is a Swiss Company who brought his 'own' tt to the market. Basically, it is a Clearaudio Concept. But marketed as the ROWEN TT1. The only visible difference is the 'R' on the front of the tt. ROWEN declares that they let Clearaudio develop and build the ROWEN TT1 according to ROWEN's ideas. ROWEN's contribution is the developpment of another frame and motor control system and has slightly modified the tone arm. However, no further (technical) details are known or disclosed.
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lewm"Just one teeny, weeny thing: Back up the thread, Elliott recommended to set AS to equal VTF or some high percentage of VTF." lewm, either someone else, or maybe I worded something wrong, but I use the Blank LP method, don’t even think about VTF, just start AS at zero, spin platter manually (easy with direct drive) watch the arm pull in (if it doesn’t there is something wrong), add anti-skate a bit at a time, checking in the two approximate null point locations, and set it with no outward force, consistently floating, or if needed to avoid ’out’ set it for a speck of inward pull, rather than a spec of out. I don't look at VTA before or after, just the actual results. I re-check perhaps monthly, to confirm both VTF, AS, and if removable headshell: view Azimuth from front with mirror method. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dear Elliott, I cannot find where you might have written about the amount of AS relative to VTF, and I do see where you described how you arrive at a suitable setting, using a grooveless area on vinyl. Your method as described would be unlikely to arrive at an amount of AS very near to or equal to VTF. So, mea culpa. My mistake. I would additionally remark that since the skating force is a result of friction between stylus and groove, I would prefer to set AS while the stylus is in the groove, because the friction force in a groove is likely to be different from the friction force on a flat area of vinyl. And I do it by ear not by watching the arm move toward the spindle. However, I know there is a school of thought, including some highly respected audio professionals, that recommends your method, so I am in no position to say I am right and all of them are wrong. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
@dweller Ha! I have a habit of touching my drivers as I occasionally walk by my speakers that have built-in powered sub woofers One night I just wasn't getting the magic out of my stereo rig and walked by one of my tower speakers, touched the woofer and sure enough, not working!! Had it repaired and now back in the magic | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
lewm I also finalize by ear, using my favorite CD and LP versions of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friday_Night_in_San_Francisco CD version 1st; side 2, last 2 tracks: all 3 guitarists play, strong L/C/R separation. Now LP: same tracks: refine AntiSkate if/as needed to move center guitar l or r to be centered, also hear balance of l and r guitars, also hear balance of audience cheers
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