I am Looking for That Elusive 3 Dimensional Room Filling Soundstage

I didn’t see it mentioned, but with those room dimensions, I would try firing the speakers diagonally. This can be effective in smaller, square rooms. You have nice electronics; with the right positioning you might get amazing results with something like PSB Alpha P5’s without throwing too much money at the problem.

If you fancy OHMs I suggest you take a close look at the cheap drivers and crude fit and finish of those speaker. I found it to be a depressing experience. I very much wanted to be an "OHM believer" so over the past couple of years, I tried three different models in my home, and either returned them (eating substantial shipping costs) or selling them at a significant loss. I THOUGHT I wanted that kind of sound reproduction in my dedicated listening room, so I foolishly persisted. The SQ of the tweeters was especially bad.

Lesson finally learned.

My Maggie .7’s and Sonus Faber monitors are infinitely more satisfying, in so many ways.

YMMV

Placement is critical but if you can get them 2’ off the wall I would look at the Revel Performa3 line.  I had the paired with a different Rogue power amp for years.  The M105s with stands are $2K.  The M106’s without stands $2K.  

It is a well designed speaker that takes advantage of cheap labor in Indonesia. It is not the be all end all but it is very good for the money.  

I have to admit that I also chased that "all enveloping" sound for many years.  Then, one day, I realized that I already had it in my car and that no matter how good the car's sound system was, the experience never matched my home system or live music.

It hit me that live music normally had a 120-180 degree soundfield from the listening position (not 360 degrees)...and that tonality, clarity and dynamics were equally key elements in the overall listening experience.  I stopped chasing "full immersion" and focused on clarity and tone and my home system experience moved up a whole new level.

I guess my conclusion is that 360 degrees is fun...especially for home theater....but at least for me when it comes to music, there are other things that are equally or even more important.

Wolf_garcia
Big fan brother 😎

Well, that certainly would explain all the flashbacks. 🤡

I think it's much simpler to just take some LSD...not for everyone and it might be hard to find it (legality issues notwithstanding), but based on my experience many decades ago, that should work. It might be available from your psychiatrist or a nearby college student. No room treatment required...in fact, no audio gear required...a win win!

anglobud2....you've Got to be single....or significant partner is Very Accepting....a Keeper. ;)

A dozen umbrellas?  Hmmm...cloth or nylon?

With a little bit of positioning, Dynaudio Special 40's throw a huge holographic soundstage in small/medium sized rooms. Best I have heard amongst the 10 brands/speakers I have had in my house. they list for $3000 new but can be had for just over $2000 used, meeting the OP's initial requirements. Only concern is that the provided port bungs might need to be used in that space.

Small Maggies.

Soundstage is a lot like charm. You’ve either got it or you don’t. What passes for soundstage much of the time is really nothing more than a projection of the sound, at best.

Charney Audio has just released a new version of the Maestro Horn designed on the tractrix theory. The Maestro is a full range single driver design utilizing the 8" Voxativ AC 1.6 driver. All Charney Audio designs deliver wide and deep sound stage with pinpoint imaging. The Maestro measures 42"h x 15"w x 7"d and are very room friendly with minimum treatments need to achieve what your looking for.
Reach out to Charney and set up an audition.
http://charneyaudio.com/the-maestro.html

There’s occasionally some revel f52’s that come up close to $2k tho they may overpower your room they image better than any others I’ve had up to $20k. 

@pokey77  Mbl......Realy? Let us know where one might find a pr. of Mbl used, much less new for anywhere remotely close to $2,000.00 

@eag618 - OP........I have a budget of $2000 for the next little babies so let’s not talk about Focal uber expensive stand mounts at $9500 thank you! (That might also include $25K Mbls)......just says...Jim

For a large 3D stage in a small room, and under $2K, I would, hands down, would go with either little Maggnapan LRS. or the small Ohm Walsh.
Either way you would need treatment, ie. acoustic drapes or panels on the wall behind the speakers and have the speakers at least 3' from the wall behind.
At under $700.00 new, for the little Maggies, it would leave enough $ left to add a good used sub. and I can't think of a box speaker at anywhere near the price, that can make a stage as large, full and detailed as the little Maggies with a good sub, when set up properly....IMO....Jim

KEF LS50s and a pair of JL Audio D108 subwoofers.  
The point source, high polar dispersion of the LS50s will absolutely give you a 3-dimensional sound stage once they are properly positioned.  

Greetings. Certain rock / pop recordings were/are recorded using holographic techniques, mainly using out of phase "tricks" which is maybe what you have experienced. But the absolute fundamental for making the best out of any equipment - including really mega, mega buck gear - is room acoustics. You can achieve this at very little cost by simple research and then some DIY effort to produce the likes of tube traps and absorbers. I have even mounted 12 umbrellas filled with BAF wadding up tight to my ceiling ( 6 of them also have inflated car inner tubes inside ). Result ? An astounding difference and all for under a 100 Euros.I have bought ZERO new equipment for the past 11 years. Good luck and Viva la Musica !

As long as you keep the Rogue in the system, Ref 3a DeCapo should get you there. I have not tried this in a small space however. With patience, a good used pair should be had for $1500.

Mbl

If speakers disappearing is your desire, my experience is that Audio Physic can’t be beat. I’m using Scorpios in a similarly small room with vacuum tube electronics. Huge spacious soundstage - disappearing walls. My room has lots of variable bookshelf, record racks, desk and such to break up any constant reflections - so that contributes to the effect.
Have also used A P Virgo with similar result.  Should be available on A-gon for your price range.

And surround sound setups are nowhere near as good as reproducing well the 3D imaging information already available in good stereo recordings. Sooooo much more satisfying! Honestly once you get that ‘surround’ from stereo you’ll never look back. Dark Side of the Moon and lots of Hendrix work, side two of Physical Graffiti and some of Nine Inch Nails work just sounds amazing in stereo. When you system is set up right for your room and tonally for your ears, you will hear things 12 feet away from the speakers, sometimes behind you and the really freaky one is when you hear sounds that feel like they are right inside your head.

You can get excellent 3D sound without major room treatments. A thick throw rug (even over existing carpeting) and a dense fabric covered couch and you should be good. If you want that holographic sound you need to not be afraid of some wall and ceiling bounces. You may need to pick less bright gear because of this but you don’t need to go crazy with sound absorption panels all over the place.

Gallo Acoustics Strada-2 with Gallo powered sub.
That will make your room sound wide and deep with some serious 3D imaging.

I found ( for your budget and room) some of the best imaging-disappearing act for speakers were the Omega SAM's ( single driver), Ohm's, and many of the dipoles and omni's. I also really liked the smaller monitors by ProAc like the tablets.  of course the BBC type monitors but they tend to be power pigs.

I know you were hoping for something that wasn’t a floor standing model, but the OHM 1000 sounds perfect for what you are searching for and are designed to do exactly what you described 360 degree omnidirectional sound. Incredible customer service. I’m looking at the larger 3000’s myself. They’re at least worth a look! Happy Hunting!

Without a perfect replica of the performance space, - i.e. a lot of careful sound treatment in your listening room, you probably won't get close to a 3D experience using two speakers.

If you must have more than what you are getting, either invest in considerable room treatment, or consider a 7 or 9 channel AV surround system.  The problem with that is that I have yet to hear an AV system that has components that match the sound quality of really good high end audio-only gear.

These should be a slam-dunk improvement over the Paradigms, silly good for the $$$$:
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9h141-jean-marie-reynaud-bliss-silver-full-range

Just be sure to buy the stands also if you go that route. 

I'd avoid floorstanders - there's a good possibility they'd overload a room that size, and the ones in your budget range tend to have noisy cabinets that will worsen rather than improve the soundstage.

Speakers aside, I agree with others that room treatments are probably your best bet. But there are no hard rules as to what should be placed where. I find that I don't like any absorption or diffusion behind the speakers but I do like it between the speakers. However, if your speakers are close to a wall, you might want some diffusion behind them as otherwise, the reflected waves would be too near in time to the initial waves. 

If indeed your speakers are near the forward wall, try moving them out a couple feet.

Either single ended triode amps, 300b, 45 tube based, or low powered class A solid state amps. Pass First Watt. They are all low power, so I pair them with mini monitors, with an active tube crossover with subwoofers. Speakers are either ither Proac 1sc, or currently, Infinity Infinitessimal  V.1, that have been modded with upgraded crossover components, and rewired for bi-wiring. I like your analogy. That listening experience is number 1 on my list too.

The sound stage you desire is less a function of the equipment and more a function of how you set things up.  Your room is problematic in several ways, but I would suggest the following (which worked great in a 13x15 ft room I once had).  Place rack in the middle of the front wall and seated position against the middle of the  back wall.  Bring speakers nearly half way out into the room , a couple feet off the sidewalls forming an equilateral triangle with your listening position.  A pair of 6 1/2" monitors with a soft dome tweeter should be plenty.  Avoid speakers with a shelved up top end--pick a smoothly voiced speaker and you will be shocked at the huge sound stage you can achieve!

Forget your speakers dilema...

You need diffusor/absorbers for 1st and 2nd point reflections....

I use GIK....

I am getting what you desire with the same room as mentioned above.

In case your wondering what speakers..?

Advent/1's

Try stacking a pair.

Omnis....If you want '3D' (4D, actually), there is no substitute.  Dipoles will get you 'closer', and Yes, either are going to be 'fussy' about room placement, what's in the space, and et cetera, ad infinitum....
If you desire an 'immersive experience', L+R, F& R.  Even with a 2 channel source, it's an eye-opener.
4 chan, you can have the vocalist in your lap....if that's your thing.

And, NO, I'm not open or interested in arguing with 'you'. MHO....
*L*  I'd rather be listening than tap-dancing keys....

(Hi, geo...maps....;)  I'm just cranky today...*smirk*)

...and don’t chase 5.1. Good stereo is much better, once you get that holographic setup working. 

Feel free to message me. 

...and take time finding the right room placement. Serious. All you need for seriously holographic presentation. 

JBL 4312a’s a CJ SS amp and you are golden!

There was a time when amp mfg's were making 3-channel amps for this purpose, does anyone know what that was called?

If you use a speaker like the Larsen 4 you most probably won't need room treatments.  Seriously.  Sit them smack against the longest wall, move them apart or closer until the sound image is what you want and pour your favorite beverage.

I used to be a Larsen dealer and I set up Larsen speakers in some of the worst rooms you ever saw.  10x10x7 cube.  14x36x9 "porch" w/ rock front wall and waaay off center.  Only one customer needed treatments and that was because of the crappy room construction.

@eag618 
i sent you a pm this evening.

Actually, not to be too harsh, but you guys seem to do fine chasing your own tails and spinning your wheels without any help from me.

" An important part of the puzzle is every time you add/change/delete/upgrade room treatments you must then reestablish ideal speaker locations. Sorry to be the bearer of bad gnus."

No you don’t have to  Debbie Downer, if you just do it right.

But you seem always determined to get everyone to spin their wheels, chase their tails, battle windmills and fork over money in general for useless tweaks. I guess its a living.

mapman
From a technical perspective, streaming is a much more robust process than reading data of an optical disk (CD) in real time. All my CDs get ripped first right up front then streamed. Even off my smart phone in the car. I never "play" CDs anymore. The results are pretty much never as good as ripping. Not all CD players are created equal of course but they all face the same challenges.

>>>>>Uh, I was addressing those who do play CDs, not people who don’t.

An important part of the puzzle is every time you add/change/delete/upgrade room treatments you must then reestablish ideal speaker locations. Sorry to be the bearer of bad gnus. 🐂 🐂 🐂

I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but no amount of vinyl is going to fix an untreated room that is perilously close to a perfect cube.   Fortunately, these two solutions are not mutually exclusive.   But everything in its proper order. 

@dep14 offers excellent advice with respect to going slowly on room treatment.   One too many traps, or one trap poorly located, can suck the life out of a room.  With respect to the OPs goals, in my opinion the best bang for the buck is going to be addressing whatever low frequency ringing may be present and judiciously treating first reflection points.  However, there is nothing cheaper than free, so the first step is optimal placement of speakers and listening position.   Properly treating a room is an exercise in patience.  Measure, interpret, treat modestly, then repeat.  

Be careful with room treatment.  Go slow, consider the speakers.  OHM recommends a live front end and treated mid/rear of the room.  I have my room set up differently based on speakers and a room can be overtreated.  You might get a precise soundstage and imaging, but a small soundstage as a result.  Diffusion is as important as absorption.  Go slow, maybe a couple bass traps in the rear corners and a couple absorbers.diffusers to play around with before going nuts.

the room is important, no question.  But the speakers still matter the most, as does the source.  Hi res streaming is where it’s at.

OP- I'll PM you

Well you may hate to but you just did.

From a technical perspective, streaming is a much more robust process than reading data of an optical disk (CD) in real time. All my CDs get ripped first right up front then streamed. Even off my smart phone in the car. I never "play" CDs anymore. The results are pretty much never as good as ripping. Not all CD players are created equal of course but they all face the same challenges.

Plus when you rip a CD with good ripping software (not expensive) you get very reliable metrics as an adjunct that help you determine which CDs have defects and are more error prone and which are not.

Many CDs may produce many read errors during ripping even when they may look to be in perfect condition.

However with ripping, the data can be re-read multiple times as needed until good whereas when playing a CD there is limited time for that (unless buffered up prior).

Only very few of the 1000’s of CDs I’ve ripped were so bad that they had to be ripped with errors in the resulting file. Even with those, it is still unlikely anyone will ever hear the errors that might remain with a properly done CD rip.

Streaming using a high quality service like Tidal, Qubuz, or Amazon also all share similar quality advantages over trying to play a CD in real-time yourself.

I hate to rain 🌧 on anyone’s parade but no amount of room treatment can fix the horrible mess created by CD players, generally speaking. If anyone in the DC area wants to hear what a real soundstage sounds like - not the usual congealed, thin, projected, narrow, synthetic, digital, shrill, tepid, bland, disorganized one you’ve heard many times before and have got used to - make a beeline 🐝 to BWS Consulting in Arlington, Va. But don’t blame me if you decide to throw your whole rig in the nearest lake or change hobbies afterwards.

An ordinary man has no means of deliverance.

@eag618,  I suggest you spend a good bit of time taking a look at the Realtraps website.   You will find a wealth of information on room and system set up and acoustics.  Also really useful tools.
http://realtraps.com/info.htm

GIK Acoustics has some really cost effective treatments and I think an industry leading free consultation.  
https://www.gikacoustics.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwldHsBRAoEiwAd0JybSTTbBYpusCnPntumCDCKkolhDErBYA7oLqT7_Pa...
However, in order to make best use of that free consultation, you should fully inform yourself on the basics of room acoustics and get up to speed on the REW software for room measurement.  It is free, there is great support while you are trying to get started, and companies like GIK can use the data to identify and target your room's biggest issues. 

If you are using monitors with limited output below 40 Hz, your problem is somewhat easier than if you are dealing with full range speakers, but you still need to measure to understand your decay times etc.  

Since you are pretty good with physics, you have a huge leg up on most of us.  You might want to also pick up a text book like "Master handbook of Acoustics."   

Tomcarr
So how does the mirror and flashlight thing work?

The other thing to consider is how big of a sweet spot or zone do you need for that sound stage and imaging? Choices are much more limited for that.

Vienna Acoustic Hayden would fill the bill. I think the reason there’s been so many used ls50’s is because when the reviewers call them giant killers thats what people expect. The r300 is close in price and has a dedicated woofer. Kef speakers are accurate while I would call the VA’s musical both are excellent for the money but cater to different listeners.