I am Looking for That Elusive 3 Dimensional Room Filling Soundstage

Vandersteen VLR's, though the CT version is a bit out your budget.
I use mine in a 10x10x8 room. 
Bob

Fritz Carbon 7 new version.

Right now I'm listening to a pair of Graham Chartwell LS3/5's in a very similar size room.(9x13)  They simply disappear. 

eag618,

     I understand and appreciate, from your aquarium analogy, the type of overall system sound your after and I believe you're on the right track with using tubes to try and achieve it.  
     Unfortunately, I can't offer much useful advice for you.  I use high powered solid-state class D monoblocks with Magnepan speakers and get glimpses, on good recordings and with proper positioning of the speakers and listening seat, of the elusive 3D soundstage that is so palpable and realistic that the instruments and musicians are perceived as being in the room or you are at the venue.  
     I also find it thoroughly enjoyable and I'm striving to achieve those overall characteristics and quality level on a more consistent basis.  My current emphasis is planning a strategy of room treatments, with the assistance of a free room analysis and recommendations provided by GIK Acoustics, that will potentially contribute to our shared overall sound goal.
     My main advice is to use the best recordings you can find, using tube electronics seem to have a natural but not exclusive advantage in 3D imaging and optimizing your room acoustically would also be beneficial.


Best wishes,
     Tim

That room is awfully small! I myself would stick with headphones! However you want speakers! So, from my experience as an owner I can recommend a pair of Ohm Walsh's. I have the Sound Cylinders. They are capable of room-filling 3-D imaging - even in restricted spaces! And are quite affordable! Contact John Strohbeen at Ohm in Brooklyn, NY for details!

Ohm's are a nice choice. Though, they are floor standers. In that case a pair of Vandy 1ci's would be another move. With subs, they would be superb. I have heard Rogue amps paired with Vandy's and was very impressed.
And, as Noble pointed out, room treatment is very helpful.
B

If you are looking for immersive soundstaging hard to beat something like these Shahinian Obelisks used they are in your price range.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649554774-shahinian-acoustics-obelisk-speaker-system/

Lots of damping out room reflections.  I think you'll have to experiment.  I had to remove some furniture.....

For my identically sized room the only speaker that comes close to your price that I am considering is an used Thiel 2.7. You can only get them used and they are hard to find now. The only one available for sale I see right now is up in Canada for $3300 USD. Company is out of business and there is the danger of driver replacement not being possible (need to research that).

I have about 5 speakers that I am considering at higher price points for my identical room. One is the KEF Reference 1 which is around $5K used. The new KEF R series is supposed to be similar to the Reference line and is around your price requirement brand new. I am using the KEF LS50’s right now and the R series is supposed to be much better than the LS50’s.

https://us.kef.com/speakers/hi-fi-speakers/rseries-2018.html

Oops, my mistake the R series is priced per SINGLE speaker so add $1000 MRSP to around $3K (new).

The ELAC speakers are likely similar to the KEF’s though I have not heard the latest, just the ones from 2 years ago. Which was very good.

I've got a buddy who has 25 year old M&K bookshelf speakers which he runs full range; he also uses an M&K 12" sub to augment the bottom.  His electronics are 25 year old Adcom fed by an Oppo 103 player in a 12x14 room with drywall and hardwood floors over concrete.  The listening position is a sofa backed up to one of the walls.  He positions his speakers when listening, 7' out from the front wall, 3' off the side walls and 7' from the listening position.  Every time I hear his system, I'm shocked....it sounds like surround sound.

It makes me think that especially for smaller rooms, optimal positioning is even more critical to get that 3d soundstage you are looking for.

Every time I hear his system, I'm shocked....it sounds like surround sound.

He probably has them wired out of phase. 

I think the best way to improve sound stage is room correction. Something like MiniDSP.  In your price range I think it will work magic. 

@kenjit I thought the same thing... nope, wired in phase... but tons of ambience probably caused by all the reflections off the hard walls, ceilings and floors.... so pinpoint imaging isn’t the greatest but soundstage is pretty impressive. 

That size room, and that budget?

Pretty easy call for me.  Ohm Walsh.  Possibly used/upgraded, or maybe new.

But big 3d soundstage, modest budget and space.  That would be my first call.

+1 for the Walsh. Also, adding a subwoofer almost always improves the ambience and expands the soundstage. 

Please audition the GT Audioworks 
planar speakers. They throw a massive transparent 3D Soundstage.
https://youtu.be/2ZgRiAdbDNw

Gallo acoustics Strada 2... impossible imaging

@faxer 

Can they be had for 2k, that was one of the OP guidelines?

Tough to tell as the GTAW website is a bit of a mess.  I'd like to hear them though.

get 2 mullard 10m goldpin 12au7's for the preamp
or other nos 12au7 made in the 50's 

I've been bitten by the same bug as you and I have tried several ways to reliably get a holographic effect.  My system consists of Thiel CS5 speakers and Krell amplification. I also have a pair of Mirage M3si speakers that are bipolar. Both of these speakers image very well. Both also respond well to processing to achieve a better image.

My favorite is a BSG QOL processor that enhances the 3D image. They are discontinued but I see one on US Audio Mart for $800 (they were $4k new). The QOL adds depth and definition to the soundstage without any deleterious effects that I can hear. It also doesn't force you to sit in one exact position. You can read reviews of this unit on line.

The second option is a Carver Sonic Holography Generator. I've got one of these too and if you set your system up carefully you can indeed get the "aquarium" effect. The problem is that you need to sit in one exact spot (called "head in a vice") or the effect goes away. These come up regularly on the used market and sell for a couple hundred bucks.

The third thing you might experiment with is a Yamaha DSP-1 Processor. These are long discontinued but you can find them for cheap (< $100) on the used market. You need an extra set of speakers and 2 more channels of amplification but the effect can be absolutely amazing if you take the time to set everything up properly.

I've got all three of the above processors but most of the time I listen with the QOL processor. The Yamaha is really cool and it's fun to demonstrate it for someone who hasn't ever heard this effect (their jaw usually drops to the floor). For a good live recording it's uncanny how real it sounds.

The last thing I suggest is that, if you haven't already, play with speaker positioning including toe-in. If you listen from a very nearfield position you can get an immersive effect from nearly any good speaker.

the ifi itube tube buffer\preamp helps to expand soundstage it has a "3d" switch with 3 positions: 0 no enhancement. first position is meant for floorstanding speakers so a little wider. second position is meant for desktop bookshelves so it's substantially wider,i use the second bookshelf position all the time with floorstanders. it lets me raise the volume a bit more without feeling the sound coming straight at me.i got mine used for a 120$ the new itube 2 is 350$ and has extra bass as well .what bought me was their use of a ge nos tube which i knew before. just for comparison the ps audio bhk at 6k$ uses russian tubes and peachtree audio uses chinese tubes...

Linkwitz Lab LXmini
Works a treat in the smaller room
About 1000 U.S.

As much as I love conventional speakers, no box is going to fill a room with a huge 3D soundstage like a good omnidirectional or bidirectional speaker.

For a room that small I would consider the smallest Ohm Walsh, the Larsen 4s or maybe a pair of cute little Neat Iota Alphas.  Also a pair of used Spatial M4s would work if you could pull them away from the wall two or three feet.

The best way to get 3D sound is to use a 5 channel system. 

RSL Speakers 5.1 Speaker Package $999
Add a second Speedwoofer S10 $399
Yamaha RX-V385 5.1 4K Ultra HD AVR w/Bluetooth $280
Used DENON DBP-1611UD Universal player SACD Blu Ray DVD A $120

With the extra $200 you can pick up about perhaps 10 pretty decent multi channel discs 
Dire Straits Brothers in Arms SACD $15
Pink Floyd / The Dark Side Of The Moon SACD $15...

https://www.superdeluxeedition.com/feature/top-10-sacds-you-can-afford-to-buy/

A side benefit is that as speaker count goes up, speaker deficiencies are less noticeable.

You could easily substitute an older higher quality 5.1 AVR if you do not need bluetooth, etc, elac speakers, etc.

or you might pick up some Owens Corning 703 and make make some acoustic panels 

All fascinating stuff, I am liking the Ohm Walsh ideas after having read ad nauseum about them first and then the other speaker that caught my eye is the Graham Chartwells, and possibly a pair of KEF LS50's but not sure about them.....Comments on the KEFS?

A number of people have mentioned room treatments.  I agree.   In an untreated  room with those dimensions, you are going to have a confused mess from early reflections that really frustrate any attempts at achieving your goal.  I spent a lot of money and effort chasing better sound not realizing how important the room is.  For me, utilization of REW to discern room issues has been a game changer.  My room is still under treated, but little by little I add more treatments as I figure out where I can make the biggest impact.  I have no intention of changing any of my current equipment until the room is where it should be.  

Another + for room treatment. The room and setup gives at least 50% of what you will hear. Not magic, just physics.

Room Treatments, I need a primer!
How do you decide what treatments to do, where does one buy it, how does it look (WAF) and what will it cost? Educate me,  I’m pretty good with physics!

I'm using Primacoustic panels, purchased from Sweetwater Sound (no affiliation, just a customer). I installed them on all four walls plus the ceiling. You need a helper to determine your first reflection points. This requires a flashlight and a mirror. This made the biggest change I've ever experienced in over 35 years in audio. That plus meticulous attention to the setup finally gave me that wonderful elusive 3D effect. 

WAF doesn't apply here. I have a dedicated room. That's a big plus. The room looks more like a recording studio. It definitely looks "purposeful", but it sounds WONDERFUL...

I spent about $1000. Plus the large area rug to cover the wood floor. The room is almost 14' x 14' x 8' with some odd alcoves so it doesn't suffer from the dreaded "square room bass boom".

There is pair of Thiel CS3.7 here at Audigon for about $7K.  For room filling, 3D soundstage, it's really hard to beat them and they sound natural too.

Vienna Acoustic Hayden would fill the bill. I think the reason there’s been so many used ls50’s is because when the reviewers call them giant killers thats what people expect. The r300 is close in price and has a dedicated woofer. Kef speakers are accurate while I would call the VA’s musical both are excellent for the money but cater to different listeners.

The other thing to consider is how big of a sweet spot or zone do you need for that sound stage and imaging? Choices are much more limited for that.

Tomcarr
So how does the mirror and flashlight thing work?

@eag618,  I suggest you spend a good bit of time taking a look at the Realtraps website.   You will find a wealth of information on room and system set up and acoustics.  Also really useful tools.
http://realtraps.com/info.htm

GIK Acoustics has some really cost effective treatments and I think an industry leading free consultation.  
https://www.gikacoustics.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwldHsBRAoEiwAd0JybSTTbBYpusCnPntumCDCKkolhDErBYA7oLqT7_Pa...
However, in order to make best use of that free consultation, you should fully inform yourself on the basics of room acoustics and get up to speed on the REW software for room measurement.  It is free, there is great support while you are trying to get started, and companies like GIK can use the data to identify and target your room's biggest issues. 

If you are using monitors with limited output below 40 Hz, your problem is somewhat easier than if you are dealing with full range speakers, but you still need to measure to understand your decay times etc.  

Since you are pretty good with physics, you have a huge leg up on most of us.  You might want to also pick up a text book like "Master handbook of Acoustics."   

I hate to rain 🌧 on anyone’s parade but no amount of room treatment can fix the horrible mess created by CD players, generally speaking. If anyone in the DC area wants to hear what a real soundstage sounds like - not the usual congealed, thin, projected, narrow, synthetic, digital, shrill, tepid, bland, disorganized one you’ve heard many times before and have got used to - make a beeline 🐝 to BWS Consulting in Arlington, Va. But don’t blame me if you decide to throw your whole rig in the nearest lake or change hobbies afterwards.

An ordinary man has no means of deliverance.

Well you may hate to but you just did.

From a technical perspective, streaming is a much more robust process than reading data of an optical disk (CD) in real time. All my CDs get ripped first right up front then streamed. Even off my smart phone in the car. I never "play" CDs anymore. The results are pretty much never as good as ripping. Not all CD players are created equal of course but they all face the same challenges.

Plus when you rip a CD with good ripping software (not expensive) you get very reliable metrics as an adjunct that help you determine which CDs have defects and are more error prone and which are not.

Many CDs may produce many read errors during ripping even when they may look to be in perfect condition.

However with ripping, the data can be re-read multiple times as needed until good whereas when playing a CD there is limited time for that (unless buffered up prior).

Only very few of the 1000’s of CDs I’ve ripped were so bad that they had to be ripped with errors in the resulting file. Even with those, it is still unlikely anyone will ever hear the errors that might remain with a properly done CD rip.

Streaming using a high quality service like Tidal, Qubuz, or Amazon also all share similar quality advantages over trying to play a CD in real-time yourself.

OP- I'll PM you

Be careful with room treatment.  Go slow, consider the speakers.  OHM recommends a live front end and treated mid/rear of the room.  I have my room set up differently based on speakers and a room can be overtreated.  You might get a precise soundstage and imaging, but a small soundstage as a result.  Diffusion is as important as absorption.  Go slow, maybe a couple bass traps in the rear corners and a couple absorbers.diffusers to play around with before going nuts.

the room is important, no question.  But the speakers still matter the most, as does the source.  Hi res streaming is where it’s at.

I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but no amount of vinyl is going to fix an untreated room that is perilously close to a perfect cube.   Fortunately, these two solutions are not mutually exclusive.   But everything in its proper order. 

@dep14 offers excellent advice with respect to going slowly on room treatment.   One too many traps, or one trap poorly located, can suck the life out of a room.  With respect to the OPs goals, in my opinion the best bang for the buck is going to be addressing whatever low frequency ringing may be present and judiciously treating first reflection points.  However, there is nothing cheaper than free, so the first step is optimal placement of speakers and listening position.   Properly treating a room is an exercise in patience.  Measure, interpret, treat modestly, then repeat.  

An important part of the puzzle is every time you add/change/delete/upgrade room treatments you must then reestablish ideal speaker locations. Sorry to be the bearer of bad gnus. 🐂 🐂 🐂

mapman
From a technical perspective, streaming is a much more robust process than reading data of an optical disk (CD) in real time. All my CDs get ripped first right up front then streamed. Even off my smart phone in the car. I never "play" CDs anymore. The results are pretty much never as good as ripping. Not all CD players are created equal of course but they all face the same challenges.

>>>>>Uh, I was addressing those who do play CDs, not people who don’t.

" An important part of the puzzle is every time you add/change/delete/upgrade room treatments you must then reestablish ideal speaker locations. Sorry to be the bearer of bad gnus."

No you don’t have to  Debbie Downer, if you just do it right.

But you seem always determined to get everyone to spin their wheels, chase their tails, battle windmills and fork over money in general for useless tweaks. I guess its a living.

Actually, not to be too harsh, but you guys seem to do fine chasing your own tails and spinning your wheels without any help from me.

@eag618 
i sent you a pm this evening.

If you use a speaker like the Larsen 4 you most probably won't need room treatments.  Seriously.  Sit them smack against the longest wall, move them apart or closer until the sound image is what you want and pour your favorite beverage.

I used to be a Larsen dealer and I set up Larsen speakers in some of the worst rooms you ever saw.  10x10x7 cube.  14x36x9 "porch" w/ rock front wall and waaay off center.  Only one customer needed treatments and that was because of the crappy room construction.

There was a time when amp mfg's were making 3-channel amps for this purpose, does anyone know what that was called?

JBL 4312a’s a CJ SS amp and you are golden!