With my proac tablettes, I am using 28 inch speaker stands which have two round steel tubes about two inches in diameter. The stands have spikes into my wooden floor (through carpet) and rubber pads on top. I have a rather small room 12x12, and I have played around with the speaker positions in the room, finding a pretty sweet spot optimizing the bass and soundstage. I have done all this with the stands unfilled.
so I am looking for advice on filling the stands. What do I use: sand, steel shot, lead shot, rice? Do I fill them half full, three quarters, or full? Do I fill all the tubes the same? Can overfill makes things worse?
like most things (i.e. speaker placement) I suspect there will be some trial and error, but as it will be a real pain in the rear to fill/empty/refill the various materials to really compare, I am hoping that there are some lessons learned that the rest of you can share with me to get me pretty close with my first trial.
Alos, what effect will the filling have- should I expect deeper bass, bigger soundstage, greater depth, more detail, or..... better yet what should I not expect to change? This will help me know what I should be listening for as I tweak things.
and finally, should I expect my current optimum speaker position to change with filled stands? Will I have to go through the whole positioning exercise again?
Back when I had Dyn C1's I used very dry sand to fill them about 2/3 full. To me the sound was more coherent. Not sure I remember how the sound changed but I did not like the way they sounded when full. Also since the Dyn Stand4 had 2 posts one front and one rear I had a tendency to put a little more in the rear posts to balance it out. The Dyn C1's are front heavy since the driver is in the front and sticks out a bit farther.
As far as how full to fill them I would just try a few combinations and see what sounds best for you.
i think sand is the best filler. its small and absorbs a lot of energy. The height is dependent on the height of the speaker stands. you dont want to make them top heavy but the more sand you put in the better they dampen any vibrations. Filling the stands with sand, or lead on the bottom and sand filling in the gaps then sand higher is similar to making the cabinets less resonant. Helps the speakers bring out details and tightens their low end by avoiding vibrations interacting with the drivers intended movement.
I use playground sand (sold at my home depot) mixed with lead shot and apply evenly distributed but do fill to the top. I have used this on speaker stands in the past and still use on my Lead Balloon turntable stand where it tightens everything up, I have found that the added mass was always a positive.
No idea on how much or what you use would affect sound, but be aware that lead, if ingested, can have an adverse effect on cognitive development. If you have young children in the house and decide to use lead shot, you should fill and adjust in an area that the kids will not have access to. Pouring lead shot will generate lead dust, and children will invariably get dust on their hands and clothes and from there, hard to prevent it from getting into their mouths. In the future, disposing of the lead could be a problem, also. Just my $0.02. You may evaluate the risk differently.
I've done sand and lead shots, I prefer the lead by far, One other method if you will never remove it is to take tiny Styrofoam balls and mix them 50/50 with concrete. It dampens extremely well and cuts the weight of the concrete tremendously.
the idea is to make the stands as heavy as possible so that speaker cabinet movement (caused by the bass reflecting off the cabinet walls) does not modulate the sound
sand will leave less of an air space than lead shot (so the stands will be heavier than you might think) and is not toxic
cones might help too
I bet Dick Vandersteen has a white paper on this...
On the sand being dry- I wonder if an arts and craft store like Michaels or similar would have a dry sand. I could see that if wet, sand could grow things and smell.
I appreciate the comments about lead safety, but am not worried. As a metallurgical engineer, I know my way around these things.
For dry sand, look for Silica at a building supply yard near you. It is not organic sand, but rather man-made, and is used in sand blasting. It is available in many different grades---the size of each grain---60 being a good one. A 100 lb. bag cost me less than $10.
I bought several bags of lead shot and was very unhappy with the experience of filling a pair of stands with them. the dust got all over my hands and arms, and filled the air i was (trying not to) breathe in during the 30 minute process as well. My brain cells are already grown and are a done deal, but lead is lead nonetheless. The stands were heavy as hell afterwards, but i hope that ultra-fine dust doesn't find its way out of a crevice somewhere on the stands. The vendor did not exactly describe the dust problem on their web site either, so beware of what you buy and how it's supplied. And lastly, don't expect to EVER try to reverse the process without a special mask on, double gloves, and a long-sleeved disposable gown.
I used small round pebbles, available at Home Depot in 50lb. bags. Be sure they are dry before using. They are a lot less messy than shot or sand. Filled stands will not effect the position of the stands and I fill them up all the way as long as the stands don't exceed 24" or so.
The speaker stands I just got are filled with a limestone acrylic polymer injection to deaden the sound yet when I strike the metal, I get a single pitched ring no matter where I strike it. It's short in duration but I'm going to get some CLD Tiles and cut a narrow strip to attach to the inside of the upper brace to further deaden things.
It won't be visible with the speaker on the stand so that should be all that needs to be done.
I have a somewhat related question ... hope the OP won't mind the digression a little bit. If I want to raise the speaker stands by around 6 inches, what is the best route to get there? Should I just get concrete slabs (from Home Depot) and put the stands on top of them? Or is wood better for this purpose? Also, let's say if I do put the speakers on top of another platform (concrete or wood), what's the best way to make the speaker stands more stable? When placed directly on carpet, I can rely on the spikes to provide a good foothold, but how to get similar hold when placed on something other than the carpet?
I bought a Solid Steel stand from the U.S. distributor at the Vegas CES in the late 90's. He had applied lead tape to all the metal tubes, in locations that weren't visible---the back of each leg, and the backs and bottoms of the cross-beams.
Harbeth's designer Alan Shaw argues that the material does not make any sonic difference: Ikea stools will be fine if you like them or if the budget is tight. What matters are two things. First, height: the tweeters should be as close as possible to your ears' level in your normal listening position. Sonically, this is the only relevant variable. Second, stability. This is where loading stands with sand etc comes in if it stabilizes them. You do not want your expensive speakers to be knocked over.
willem, surely Mr. Shaw considers room placement, not just height, an important determiner of speaker sound quality. And how about degree of toe-in? I recently finally heard a pair of Magicos in a home (having heard them in showrooms a fair amount), and before listening commenced, I commented on the less-than-"normal" amount of toe-in with which the owner had positioned the speakers---about 15 degrees off straight ahead, I’d guess. He responded that you do NOT want Magicos pointed directly at you, and when we started listening, I heard why! I am much more familiar with planar speaker sound than of speakers with dome tweeters, and many planars need to be heard directly in the line-of-fire of the ESL, m-p, or ribbon tweeter.
There is no doubt that most box type speakers need a little damping as the cabinet resonance is not really good for the sound. So, in addition to a good sounding stand I some effective method of damping cabinet resonance should be explored. Too bad Tekna Sonic Dampers for speakers and subwoofers are no longer available as they were very effective in allowing cabinet vibrational energy to exit the speakers without storing energy, which is an unfortunate side effect of many damping techniques. Also, as I mentioned somewhere last week, large cones act as node Dampers on speaker cabinets a la the “Beaks.” Those Gabon ebony things sometimes work when placed on top of the cabinet, too. Marigo VTS Dots (very small constrained layer Dampers) are effective for damping the internal crossover elements, speaker driver structure, speaker diaphragm, and the cabinet itself.
In addition, I kind of doubt that the ear should always be at tweeter height as it really depends on the actual radiation pattern of the tweeter, the room acoustics, and the location of the listener’s chair. In fact, Pierre Sprey over at Mapleshade is find of saying that the best sound is usually when the listener is sitting on the floor. So, opinions vary. Obviously the speakers should be carefully placed for best results.
The Frog Jump in Water Tweak is based on the concept that ice cold water in bowls on the floor causes the sound waves to bend downward slightly towards the listener so he hears more of the sound.
Nope, no cat :). But I did make the mistake of getting scented once and the listening room smelled like floral for 2 months until it finally dissipated. When I walked in didn't know whether to listen or pull out a dollar bill for the dancer. In my setups kitty litter sounded better than sand or lead shot. If I ever get a cat I'll get back to you on how the used sounds.
Lots of folks have explanations for lots of stuff. My advice to people is never try to explain anything. It will only get you into trouble. Everything is arguable!
mes- you are the first person to mention kitty litter. What is your set up? And full or half or? Any thoughts on why? KL would be less dense than sand, lead, or any of the other candidates. (Although if it were used, the density would be increased😀)
Do not use kitty litter unless you are in a dry climate all year long. Litter absorbs moisture like a sponge, clumps and expands. You need tight welds to use sand or litter as it will leak out the cracks. Small pebbles or steel shot are my recommendation.
I second bdp's comments about the silica sand and it being dry and sounds better in stands than regular moist sand. The ultimate for good sound in steel posts, however, is Star Sound's very small metal bearings. They are about the size of the ink tip in a ball-point pen. They will make the sound much more like live music with the live-vibe technology. The drawback is it's expensive--like $59 for a quart of it times a lot.
I use lead shot in my stands. Walmart used to sell it in 20lb bags, but not any more. Before you fill your stands with anything, make sure there are no gaps between the top plate/columns, and the base plate/columns. Some cheaper stands aren't built with tight tolerances, and will leak terribly with sand. Make sure there's a tight seal everywhere. I chose lead shot because of it's weight. I filled one of my stands (24" with 4 columns) with shot, and one with sand. The one with shot was a LOT heavier, and MUCH more stable. I ended up filling them 3/4 of the way due to the weight. I stuffed the remaining 1/4 with cotton. Use your own judgement depending on the size of your stands. I hear no audible ring when I knock on them. As far as the danger with lead shot, it's safe as long as you (duh!) don't eat it. Fill your stands outside, wear latex gloves, and use a funnel when slowly pouring it in. If you're paranoid about the dust, you can put a small fan beside you to blow the dust in the opposite direction. Let the stands sit for about 15 minutes so the dust can settle inside the columns. Put the top plate back on and wrestle them back into the house. I used a hand truck to move mine. Sand, rice, or kitty litter is certainly cheaper, but I prefer the lead shot for weight and stability, not to mention it's damping qualities.
If you chose to use sand, fill a cookie sheet with a layer of sand no more than 3/16" high and bake it in your oven 350 degrees until totally dry, an hour or longer depending upon the type of sand you purchase.
Noromance- tell me about brass cones. Who makes them, etc? When I think of cones, I think of pointy ends. Sticking into the wood of the speaker? Educate me.....
I used to have my stands ( Dynaudio stand 6 ) filled with Small lead shot, sand and rice, I have since been experimenting with different quantities of lead and have discovered that the more lead, weight /dampening you can fill your stands up ( 3/4) is the limit with the remaining filled with egg crates to further dampen the stands the better imaging, bass including texture and pitch of bass, micro dynamics. I now have the stands filled with different size lead fishing weights, 20 pounds with lead shot, 50 micron aluminium oxide to fill in the gaps and have experienced a huge improvement in the above areas. Highly recommended to experiment with different , heavier, dampening materials to a achieve speaker monitor performance.
To answer your original question.....Freshwater aquarium gravel (the epoxy coated type) Buy new not someones used stuff..... If that doesn't work ...set up a aquarium!!!
For me, stone dust (Home Depot) is the most dense, heavy-as-hell filler.
Imagine a 3' by 2' bag of sand. I would estimate the equivalent size in stone dust to be roughly twice as heavy, at least that's what it feels like. This stuff is so dense, it feels like you are lifting a frigging stone of the same size.
For me, stability is my main concern. I then put a Husky neoprene-like tool-drawer-bottom liner between the top plate and the speaker bottom for protection and grip. The whole thing is pretty tight and solid...
Being retired with lots of time on my hands, I've been playing around more with the mixture and have added more lead weights and have filled the last 1/4 with eggs crates, cotton, really packed down.
The Dynaudio stand 6 have TackAudio footers on the bottom with Alto_ Extemo Lyd II mounted on top of the stand with the S25 sitting on top of the Lyd II.
I have also made sure that each stand weight is exactly the same ( 30 kilos,) along with being perfectly level and both the same height. With the Dynaudio S25,s being 44 1/2 from floor to the top of the speaker.
Speakers must be a mirror of each other for optimal imagine, stage ect. The speakers from the tweeter to the front wall 69 inches, 53 1/4 side walls to tweeter. Total weight with speaker and stand is 44.2 kilos.
All this has added up to a larger life like soundstage, tighter bass and excellent imaging along with all the other audiophile bla bla bla.
I don't have any advice, but do have a story about lead and learning something about physics :-) Not long after I bought KEF 103/3's back in the late 80's, I had the special speaker stands that come with them filled with melted lead by a local factory I knew. What I did not anticipate was that as the lead cooled it expanded - like water in a bottle in a freezer. Uh oh. Without quickly putting heavy duty metal straps around the outsides of the stands, they would have split wide open. In the end it worked out, and the vertical part of each stand is like a solid lead column surrounded by the wood of the stand. Heavy for sure, and a roommate a few years later somehow ran into one a broke his big toe.
How did it sound? Lol. For those who admire sand or rice solutions, I suggest taking a gander at super smooth and super spherical glass microspheres, the operation of which is rather quite superior to non symmetrical sand and rice. These little babies are not cheap, what price glory?
How did it sound? Do you mean when my roommate ran into one and broke his toe? The sound was VERY loud and forward, without a hint of distortion. I could clearly hear every intonation of his vocalizations. LOL.
I thought it improved the sound, but not in a jaw dropping way. Honestly, though, I am audiophile lover but not an audiophile owner or expert. My gear is honestly mid-fi. Maybe the biggest benefit of filling them with melted lead (and narrowly getting away with it) is that my roommate did not knock the speaker over the day he collided with it, which probably would have snapped the KEF from the stand and broken it.
Obviously a super big advantage to fried rice, spam, grapes, pecans, and other delicious 😋 foods that are not too hard, not too soft, is you can eat them if they don’t sound good.
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