+1 unsound
politically incorrect it may be, but “WAF” is a factor, maybe even #2. some of us have little control over the room, which affects everything.
most of us follow an evolutionary path - trial and error. I would recommend prioritizing a keeper amp or speakers and build from there.
the “max out the source” hypothesis was proposed by Linn to sell turntables. Imho, it’s backwards.
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All you need for very good sound is a (preowned) Hegel 590 for 6k, and a great set of speakers. That’s it. Well, a decently set up room too.
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i enjoyed reading all the answer's and I am sure the fellow that asked about the percentage question is more confused now then before. I have been in audio since I was 12( now 69} and in MY experience it’s just trial and error. I will say the room is very important, cuz no matter how much you spend, you always “Hear” your room, for good or bad. Overtime, my taste in sound signature changed from bright and loud to warm and laidback. I just did a lot of reading and the consensus for my taste was I needed a Pass Labs amp. Bought what I could afford (Pass 60) and later on got the Pass 250. Done with amp and very happy with sound. Dac was a ;lot more trouble for me. I tired many, from Schitt Yggy to Denefries terminator Plus 12 anniversary. The Schitt was good for a minute, but ultimately the Holo Spring May KTE made me smile. Source was a Mac air which was good for a minute, then down the streamer rabbit hole. Tried all the Eversolo models from 6 to 8.The Hi Fi Rose 130. It took a aurender N200 to make me smile. I like very good mids and I researched that Dynaudio would foot the bill and it does. Wire and cord is another rrabbit hole. Research led me to cardas and that is what I tweak with.
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If I were to do it again it would be;
1) Speakers- 50%
2) DAC with Preamp -25%
3) Integrated Power Amp-20%
4) Wires -5%
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50% amp, 25% cabling, 20% electronics, 5% speakers.
That's pretty radical.
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I’m years late to this discussion but I have good gear and somebody in 2024 might be reading this.
Without question and without an ounce of trolling, your power amp and cables are the most important components of your system. 50% amp, 25% cabling, 20% electronics, 5% speakers.
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I think many, many really good speakers are short changed by the electronics they are paired with. Then they are sold in search of the perfect speaker. Spend money on really good electronics and get off the buy / sell speaker merry go round
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P.S. Cables, Power cords, Power Condtioners, fuses, isolation pods and room acoustics all play into the equation. However, that can be done later. |
A very interesting thread with no right or wrong answers IMHO. For me, the first component you want to get right is the speakers. Take your time and don't just buy what the local dealer tries to sell you. Then you match the amp / pre-amp or integrated. Depending on your budget, I would go integrated and then you can add a music server to the equation. So my vote is 35% speakers, 45% Dac and Music Server, and 20% amps. I just believe it is easy to change out amps so if you don't like them try something else. DAC's / Music Servers had a major major impact on my system. |
Don’t forget those REALLY expensive fuses!!! |
Op,
If possible, take the time to understand what is important to you in a system.
I have a pair of powered Dynaudio Focus in my living room and a pair of smaller Dynaudio Xeo in the bedroom. They share streaming music through a wireless hub controlled by my phone. I love it.
Even my lower end home theater receiver sounds good to me… and that’s blasphemy in these circles.
I’ve had separates and it’s not for me. Same with tubes.
My long winded point is try to listen to a range of systems before you decide on a budget. No need in building a dedicated audio wing on your home just to realize your cousins $1,500 system sounds pretty dang good. Or maybe it should be a two story wing, haha.
Run your own race, hope you enjoy your new system!
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Everything adds to the sound quality, but some things count more than others. The speakers that you buy set the tone for the rest of the system. Expensive, very revealing speakers will be more sensitive to sources, amps, etc. "warmer," less detailed speakers will be more forgiving of other problems, so you will be able to spend less on the other components. That being said, I listen exclusively to digital these days, and with a very good DAC/power amp combo, you have the foundation for a system that will allow you to expand the quality of the speakers without having to upgrade everything. Remember that more than anything else, speakers play the biggest role in shaping the sound that you hear, while you don't have to shell out big bucks for an amp to get great sound out of them. Get the system set up for your budget and then upgrade things like cables, power conditioners, room treatments and the like. |
^How much was spent on maths studies?:-) |
I spent 50% on speakers.... 60 % on amp , 50 % on sources.... |
I'll preface my statement with, I don't believe in absolutes in audio, because all rooms/systems are different. That being said, I recently changed from my Jeff Rowland 625 S2 amplifier to a pair of Jeff Rowland 735 mono-amps. My dealer(Albert at Precision Audio and Video) has stated for years that, "I never really heard my speakers and he recommended upgrading my amplifier." To say the amplifiers made a difference would be an understatement. My wife never comments when I change components. Her comments, "voices and instruments have more depth." I used REL G1 mkII subs with the JR 625 S2. I sold my REL G1 mkII subs. I prefer the sound of my system with the 735s, without the G1s compare to the sound of my system with the 625 S2 amplifier and G1s. So, in my case changing amplifiers made a significant difference. |
I've never built any system in nearly thirty years with a set percentage of budget for any particular element in chain. I've always started out with amp/loudspeaker as package deal, whatever loudspeaker I started out with required certain type of amplification, I purchase the best I can afford at this point. Rest of system follows from here.
Certainly, there is a certain percentage attached to each element at any single moment in time, just don't pay attention as I'm building system. I can only say that every single link in chain is important, when weak link discovered, 100% of my efforts and budget goes toward eliminating that weak link.
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IMO, From most to least important:
1. Budget
2. Room
3. Speakers
4. Amplification
5. Sources
6. Cables
7. Rack |
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In my opinion this is a shifting % which is dependent on a few items. Budget, difficult speakers to drive and speakers that are extremely detailed. These items in my opinion will loosely dictate where the percentages of money should go assuming you plan on using a source, preamplifier and an amplifier. Source in vinyl is the platter, arm, cartridge, phonostage and cleaning machine. In digitial it is a transport, DAC and streamer.
A very modest budget will require more money to be placed into the speakers budget then followed by source. The pre and amplifier can be split.
A moderate budget will require the most money to be placed between the speakers and source, then followed by the preamplifier. As long as the speakers are friendly to amplifiers the amplifier will be last in line.
A budget where money is of little concern or you have spent the better part of a lifetime upgrading and now you are in that expensive category of equipment when upgrading then go fairly even in all the categories. The goal is to balance everything out because it will be really easy to hear the weak link when you have top tier equipment to chose from. Skimping anywhere will be heard. In this category the speakers will be slightly ahead of everything but source, amplifier and preamplifier all should be split as evenly as possible.
Difficult to drive speakers require quality amplification so go heavy there.
Lastly if the speakers you chose are extremely detailed then go heavy on the preamplifier and source.
Of course this is my opinion and how I went about thinking through my upgrade path and it worked well for me.
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The SOURCE (LP or Digital) is the most important thing and its integrity is responsible for more than 50% of the sound quality.
Oh, except for the quality of the AMPLIFICATION (preamp+amp) which is responsible more than 50% of the sound quality.
Oh, except that the SPEAKERS have the greatest variability, and are responsible for more than 50% of the sound quality.
Oh, and don't forget the ROOM. It will color everything, and is responsible for more than 50% of the sound you hear.
There you go...... It's all very logical. |
I wasn't too worried about the amp as long as it was quality built and powerful...but the Benchmark AHB2 changed the game for me. It made a very noticeable difference in my music.
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After reading through what others have posted, I wanted to follow up with the numbers from my system. I've never really looked at them from a % perspective.
1. Source (20%)
Bluesound Node 2i
Maverick Audio TubeMagic D2 DAC
Sparkos Labs upgraded discrete op amps for DAC - high value
Western Electric Vintage tube for DAC
Pioneer Elite PD-D6-J SACD player
2. & 3. Amplification (39%)
Pathos Classic One MkIII
Mullard Vintage tubes for amplifier - high value
4. Speakers (38%)
Focal Chorus 836v
5. Cables and Power (3%)
Blue Jeans 10 AWG speaker cables
Blue Jeans Coaxial Digital
Blue Jeans Stereo Audio (3x)
APC H10
Total $8,000 |
@limomangus - If you're not willing to give 120% or more then you're not trying :-) |
So now your saying I should make it now 20% for my cables....good bye. |
I think the biggest flaw in assigning a budget % to each piece of the audio chain is that it doesn't take future changes/upgrades into account. Here's how I would approach building a systems based on my limited experience.
First, try to figure out what a realistic goal is for your system. When I purchased my Focal 836v speakers I had the opportunity to listen to nearly everything in the Focal lineup from the $500 bookshelf speakers to the Grande Utopia EM speakers. I never considered that a $30,000 speaker, for example was a realistic option for me and ended up selecting the 836v that was the most expensive speaker that I could afford. I have always liked the Focal sound and have never regretted my purchase.
My speakers were initially paired with the SACD player (still use) and Onkyo receiver that I already had. I almost immediately upgraded the receiver with an Integra receiver (the goal was to still be able to do home theater) and I still have this receiver in my home theater setup.
I eventually added a stereo amplifier and have had several different ones. My current Pathos Classic One MkIII (with vintage Mullard tubes) seems to be my "forever" amplifier.
I recently did an op amp upgrade on my DAC which gave me some perspective on how significant the role of a quality source is. I have a little bit of pro audio experience and know that gain structure is important and in a practical sense means that any flaws in the signal just get more amplifier at each step in the system. If your source produces a noisy signal then your preamplifier and amplifier can only amplify the signal they are given and a quality speaker will expose it.
The issue with starting at the source is that the speakers plays the most significant role in the final sound of your system, so if you don't like the characteristic sound of your speakers I don't think a perfect source will change your mind.
I would recommend investing in a speaker that you love and is expected to be capable of achieving the sonic quality that you desire. I had the opportunity to listen to my chosen speakers in the main room that was setup for the Grande Utopia EM speakers, so was able to evaluate what they were capable of.
I was also able to listen to the $500 bookshelf speakers on the same system and even though they sounded pretty amazing, I could tell that I would want more than they could provide.
It's a journey. |
cclee2022 If you are looking for a great pairing for the XT2 I would highly recommend the Lumin X1 and AMP. I had this combo with the XT1, TD1.2 and TD3.2's. Outstanding synergy..
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Source is most important. The sound can only degrade from there as you go through the signal chain. So turntable (arm/cartridge/phono stage/table), integrated amp (keep as many interconnects out of the chain as possible), speakers. Of course you want to get speakers you like and ensure the amp has the power to get the most out of them, but this is not the typical advice you get from dealers as the margins are higher typically with speakers than the other parts.
And don't forget cables, isolation treatment if necessary, and room placement.
It is impossible to put precise percentages in each area, but be logical. If you have a $10K budget, don't spend $8K on a turntable unless you are planning on upgrading the other stuff down the line. Have an end goal in mind, and then if you are like a lot of Goners, the end goal never stays the same.
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Spend most on speakers, speakers make the greatest difference IMO. Amps have ruler flat responses and almost immeasurably low distortion.
If your power amp has volume controls, try as an experiment by-passing your pre-amp. Plugging in for example your CD output into your power amp, with your power amp turned down - of course). See what difference your pre-amp makes. |
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I mean Thanks to kennyc . |
Thanks Kenny,
A Guide book is a good starting point.
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TAS Robert Harley’s book “The Complete Guide To High-End Audio v6” book has an budget example of 36% speakers, 50% amplification+DAC, 9% power conditioner, and 5% interconnects+ cables. But these percentages are not set in stone- you may get a great deal or discount or may want to pay premium for desired component. But maybe having a place to start vs no clue is a good thing. |
It all matters from the perspective you need these components in order to create a system. Most of the answers you got are nothing but audiophile nonsense. The amp, preamp, DAC if you go digital are way less important than the speakers and room. If you want a true high fidelity experience just spring for a pair of Dutch and Dutch 8c and a decent streamer, apply EQ accordingly and room treatments. If you want a passive speaker most of your budget should be speakers and room treatments. As long as you get speakers that are not crazy to drive there are literally dozens of amps and preamps, DACs that will work and don't cost an arm and leg. |
Responses received are eye-opening. Learning the motto of “it all matters” and the various distribution of components / contributions for a true hi-fi experience can be a great option s reference for beginners like me.
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I love the question. What you didn't ask about was the way more expensive room treatments, cables, power conditioners, isolation pads, racks, and subwoofers. Those actually cost more than the components in question in both my listening rooms.
To answer your question, I have a dedicated listening room and nearfield setup in my office. I'll start with the big system with BIG speakers that unsurprisingly ate up 40% of the total cost despite answer 1 equipment, the DAC/clock/upsampler stack being absolutely ridiculously expensive, possibly the most expensive, and only accounting for 9.8% of the total budget:
1) 9.8%
2) 19.1%
3) 31%
4) 40.1%
The little nearfield office setup does have small-ish speakers. But they are possibly the best nearfield speakers and are shockingly expensive for their size, yet answer 4 this time is only 8.5% of the total cost:
1) 17.6%
2) 28%
3) 45.7%
4) 8.5%
Cheers! |
Clearly, speakers are central. However, you can get and use a perfectly great speaker that is not that pricey. An “honest” transducer need not have the big scale of a large, expensive speaker. And matching your speaker with your amp is also central.
Percentages are not important or relevant. Having the appropriate speaker to amp match is.
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I would think speakers would have the biggest impact. I also think a pair of REL's make a huge difference, especially a lower listening volumes. |
You didn’t specify your budget! I can’t believe all these people made recommendations without that info. It matters because up to a certain level, you’d be better off with an integrated vs. separate power and pre. An integrated will compromise on the preamp section, but save $ on an interconnect. |
Everything matters. Amp matters a lot. Recently I’ve owned 3 amps I can swap among in my system. Each has a very distinct sound. All 3 are way more than enough power (120 - 275 Watts / ch) for my 96dB Tannoys, so overhead & drive capabilities are not really a variable. I’m even writing down particular combinations of cartridge & amp that work best together lol. |
I believe it’s a good percentage of your system and should be chosen per your speakers and their capacity. Don’t forget your power conditioner and monitor. I spent 500$ on one that insures it’s protection. |
Every component shares a slice of responsibility, when it comes to accurate sound reproduction (not to mention: room treatment).
ie: Picture all of your components (sources, cables, pre/power amps and speakers) as panes of glass, through which you want to observe something living.
The accuracy/enjoyment of your observations will be determined by how many and how dirty the panes.
How critical you are as listener, will determine your level of involvement and investment. |
As between pre- and power-amp, it's really a question of what kind of sound you like (warm, analytical, bassy, slightly rounded edges, etc.) and then carefully matching components, within your budget, to get that sound. You can combine a relatively expensive power amp that has a sound you like with a passive or very clean active power amp that is not very expensive. Or, you can spend more on a pre-amp that gives you the sound you like and less on a power amp that adds nothing but power to the sound. Personally, I'd rather have a pre-amp determining the sound and a very neutral power amp. These days I run a Parasound JC2 preamp ($4500 when not on sale) with a pair of VTV Purifi 1ET400A mono blocks (about $2000). Some folks prefer combining tube or hybrid preamps with solid state power amps. But instead of adding the distortion of tubes, I've just ordered a Schiit Lokius tone controller ($300), which allows me to tailor the sound to the peculiarities of specific recordings. |
Assuming a budget of $10K-$15K, I might put nearly everything into a pair of JansZen Valentina A8 active speakers. Plus as little as $550 for a Bluesound Node (the source) and < $100 for cables. Then trade up from the Node later (to Bryston/Cambridge Edge/Exasound). That's assuming I lived within reasonable driving distance of the JansZen shop in Ohio (otherwise, I'd be reluctant to put all my component eggs into their basket).
But suppose a $5K budget instead, as a more reasonable entry point for a "high end" clean slate system. Assume we're going for digital not vinyl. Then very roughly:
1. 60% for speakers (because they make a bigger difference than anything else and are a little harder to trade up due to size/weight);
2. ~10% for a streamer/DAC (such as the Bluesound Node);
3. 30% for an integrated amp (maybe Peachtree or Cambridge Audio);
4. very little on cables (Bluejeans Cable for speaker wire; for everything else, just use what comes in the boxes with your components for now.)
For half that budget, you could build around a pair of KEF LS50 active speakers ~$1250) plus < $1K for everything else, with change back.
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I forgot to mention with amplification ,never skimp on quality- power for on transients dynamic range on peaks can be 10 x
the power in milliseconds and your speakers will dictate the efficiency and what’s required ,balance,quality,and quantity of necessary power . I always look at thepower supplies
and capacitor reserves on any products , for tubes most important
theQuality of chokes and powersupplies , and ample size,
in Solid state ,my Coda for example has a potted 3 kva transformer which is Huge ,and over 80k in capacitance , and over 120 amps short term on demand current , that’s why it’s important to see the quality and exactly what’s under the hood , just keep this in mind ,and digital at least 2 linear power supplies ,which my M3 Bricasti dac streamer has, 3 even better ,like on their M1,m21
two good size linear power supplies is ample and my streamer board is included ,with ample filtering and low noise. |
It is a system and the system will only be as good as the weakest link. You can have the best amp but a bad pre-amp and the pre-amp will not let the amp shine. I my self would consider the pre-amp a little more important than the amp. If you have a budget and have to compromise some where in the system chain the pre-amp would be my last to compromise. |
This guy trying look for good advices and you send him out like drunk girl looking for quite place to sleep a frat house. but it not your fault because op give very little information.
take money you pay for speaker- Raidho and how much you have leftover. That the question is what do you have after purchase the Raidho? That good speaker I have that in workshop system I just cover that tweeter when use machine because ribbon no like dust. |
It all matters...if you did a mashup of all the above posts you would find that "it all matters".
Assigning percentages to components is a fool's errand, you may like to think about it in those terms, but you'll never match it as you move forward.
My simple rule of thumb is that any component that is a transducer requires more dollars. That would be speakers (signal to sound), cartridge (squiggles to signal), cd/dac (digital to analog).
After that you pick the order of spending, but it all matters!
Regards,
barts |
50% gear/cables, 50% room treatment and speaker/listening position placement.
That is not COST, it is the importance and true perspective of a TOTAL system.
The cost of gear and cables can be 100% of the cost, but it's still only 50% of the sound. By putting 5-10% ($$) in room treatment you can reduce your gear cost buy 50-75%. The sound can cost a lot of money or VERY well spent money. The well spent money part, usually comes with a lot of poorly spent (learning) money through the years. :-)
I look at it like this TOO.. 300hz and down gets a certain kind of control system (bass control system) fed from an active preamp (integrated or separate), power amp (class Ds), cables and speakers.
300 hz and up gets a very well made versatile valve power amp for 8 months out of the year and class ds for the HOT summers where I live.
When I was finished with one system I was still under 10k and everything was new or freshly gone through and or moded up.. Room included. The front room my wife's system.
I could add in 15K speakers that I have, but the 1500.00 speakers with the brand new cabinets I purchased for 200.00, work as good because of the room size and type of speaker. I could add a 8K preamp I have but the C20 that cost me 1700.00 total with a complete rebuild, and on and on and on....
The NUGGET from all this is:
I can build a 60K system or a 8K system. I have both... 50% is still the room.. at 5-15% of 8K. LOL :-)
ROOM first, speakers second. I'm sorry I work backward than most people. Then the power amp matches the speaker and the room temp issues.. It's a BIG issue where I live..
Source is source pick what ever you like for your Karaoke Christmas hootenanny. :-)
Regards |
The strongest part of any system is it’s weakest link. …or something along those lines |
