in 1994 when i got seriously into hifi system building and music collection building, the internet was in it’s infancy, and there were zero on line forums. it was hard print Hifi magazines, the occasional show, and dealers. we also had a local hifi club. over time i made hifi friends and it took some energy and effort to learn stuff.
initially i did rely on my local dealer for their guidance, for about 4-5 years while i learned. during those 5 years i used all the above sources, listened and asked questions, tried to determine what i liked and did not like. figured out the most credible sources for information. at that point i started to understand what i liked and did not like. i developed my own reference to some degree, and then moved beyond the dealer’s products.
about that time 1999-2001 forums were emerging as sources for information.
my advice; actively find all the information you can, if you know someone with a system you like, ask lots of questions. keep your mind open to alternate approaches to system building. nothing wrong with a brick and mortar dealer for info.
hifi forums can be great places to learn. don’t limit yourself to Audiogon; there are other’s.
good luck, my learning process has been a true pleasure and have made many friends and had great experiences. the confidence to make good decisions takes time to attain. no hurry.
To answer “just one source”, I would say Stereophile magazine. Years ago they had a reviewer that shared my taste in music and preference for gear. I found that helpful in future upgrades, although most of my gear was never on Stereophile’s Recommended Components List. When he reviewed equipment with music I had, I could compare what I heard with his comments. I became better at listening and understanding the lingo.
Although a reviewer may give a glowing report, the equipment may not give the same results to someone with different system components, room, music preference and ears. But it can still be helpful and educational.
I know the magazine has its detractors but I consider it one of the better resources for reviews, information and audio news.
I’m a long time subscriber. I’ve subscribed to most of the other audio mags over the years (many defunct), this is one of the last ones standing and one of the best.
You need a solid information base. So an absolute requirement is: The Complete Guide to High-End Audio. by Robert Harley
Winner winner chicken dinner!
I was gonna say that but didn't want to just give it away. There is so much in that book, the typical audiophile even after many years can pick it up and still learn a lot. Highly recommended!
Not this forum. Possibly Steve Guttenberg but Stereophile and Absolute Sound are not bad also. The German magazine Stereo is good also but a bit Eurocentric in the gear it covers.
Stereophile, mainly Herb Reichert, and analog planet’s Michael Fremer...just a few...lots can be learned by just reading reviews, even on equipment you could never realistically afford...there is no one source really, you just have to continually seek the info you desire...the internet is a wonderful thing. I second the book suggested by MC...
Where ever you go you will run into bias. Since speakers are the most important item read The Loudspeaker Handbook (Second Edition) by John Eargle.
Rule #1 Never listen to anyone who is trying to sell you something. This includes reviewers who are agents of the companies that advertise in their rag. Reviewers are generally not technical people, they are English majors. John Atkinson of Stereophile is an exception. Rule #2 Never listen to anyone who owns the equipment you are interested in. It will always be "great." Rule #3 Books are best.
As for Audiogon the advice here is all over the map extending from excellent to mythological.
An indication that you have found a comfort level.
I became better at listening and understanding the lingo.
You made an effort and have shown an interest! Now dig in ... The tech side (lingo) of is about the ' nature of the beast '. Any technical background especially basic electronics / sound engineering will help move ahead quicker. As stated this is a beginning point.
"How do you learn?" is one fascinating topic. I’ve read that learning involves making new connections between neurons, literally re-wiring the brain, which is why repetition is so often involved. But I don’t think that is what the OP had in mind. Even though it is literally the title. Kind of like the "What there is" thread. Both truly fascinating topics, unfortunately nothing to do with what the OP really meant.
It is all enough to make me wonder, "How do we learn to write what we mean?"
Your ears are the only source that matters. You either hear it or you don't. Expecting a single source to provide you the same thing your ears tell you is pretty naive. To learn what's really going on in HIFI you need to collect as much input as possible and let your ears be your filter. Also realizing that in the future what you hear and listen for may change. All those sources you thought weren't of value, could now be very informative Unfortunately that's how I learn, thru trial and error. Or just go to Best Buy they know everything... Just ask them
I like millercarbon’s post above and would extend it to music. Did anyone see the recent Tony Bennet segment on 60 Minutes? He is deep in the throes of Alzheimer’s but start playing music or put him in front of an audience and a different person emerges. I have seen stroke patients who have been aplastic for years suddenly belt out Christmas Carols when the music comes on. We learn music in different areas of the brain than other language skills. Do we therefore learn to hear differences in the reproduction of musical sounds in a similar way? I have no idea. This is also different from what the OP intended, but a lot more interesting.
Getting back to the original intent, this hobby is is infiltrated by people with agendas. I like Robert Harley’s books, probably as reasonable a single source as any, but I am very suspicious of him ever since he went whole hog on MQA. Forget Trump’s tax returns, I would love to see if RH gets any income Bob Stuart. I learn a lot from these forums, but when something interests me that I encounter here I try to read up on it elsewhere. Why does the OP want to restrict himself to a single source? Would you want a Doctor operating on you who has only read a single journal article?
I like millercarbon’s post above and would extend it to music. Did anyone see the recent Tony Bennet segment on 60 Minutes? He is deep in the throes of Alzheimer’s but start playing music or put him in front of an audience and a different person emerges. I have seen stroke patients who have been aplastic for years suddenly belt out Christmas Carols when the music comes on. We learn music in different areas of the brain than other language skills. Do we therefore learn to hear differences in the reproduction of musical sounds in a similar way? I have no idea. This is also different from what the OP intended, but a lot more interesting.
Very interesting posts thanks....
Unlike paintings perhaps or colors , sounds and music in a more direct way elicit and and provoke our fellings, will and memories and habits in a deeper way...
All main important events are associated often with a particular music for us or even for the collective...
Then the Tony Bennet we knows, buried deep under the brain degeneration, could express itself when related to the music and says "hy there! i am here but cannot do nothing more than react to the event "....
It is incredibly moving and suggest the fragility of our essence and at the same time his persistence in spite of the body glue....
Like i already said i learned mainly by listenings experiments.... Many hundreds one...Reading dont replace listenings experiments no more than buying upgrades...
The musical files for example i play right now were the same that i played on the same system 2 years ago....
They are now unrecognizable...
Same speakers, same dac, and same amplifier...
Only change are room acoustic passive treatment AND active controls, also controls over mechanical vibrations, and some decreasing control over the noise floor level of my house...
Results are so astounding that a file i listened to one or two years ago reveal so much details that the music is almost unrecognizable, like a new album...
It is the REASON why i defended my point about embeddings controls of the working embeddings dimensions over and BEFORE any upgrade....
Reading is good, i learned basic acoustic principle by reading, but i understood them REALLY only by experimenting with them...
Then i will not recommend any books there is much good one recommeded here.... But experimenting is the key....Upgrading is a deception most of the times....How do you know if what you bargain for in upgrade is really better if you had never listen to the true S.Q. potential peak of your actual system already ?
To be clear, the book, which costs $37.70 plus tax and shipping, is filled with tips and suggestions that cost nothing additional other than one’s time.
Now, someone will surely reply with a "gotcha" that Jim Smith recommends some tools that are helpful, therefore adding cost: laser level, laser measuring tool, system evaluation CD, measuring tape, multimeter, AC polarity tester, small hand mirror, flashlight, removable tape. Most of us own a measuring tape, roll of blue tape, small mirror, flashlight. Those items alone will be sufficient to implement many of Jim’s tips.
Fingers crossed, I’ve covered the bases of potential costs, but I likely have forgotten one or two.
We learn music in different areas of the brain than other language
skills. Do we therefore learn to hear differences in the reproduction
of musical sounds in a similar way? I have no idea. This is also
different from what the OP intended, but a lot more interesting.
Indeed, it is so interesting I started not one, not two, but THREE threads trying to discuss this very topic! Two of them were trashed by the usual know-nothings so fast and thoroughly I had them removed. The third I had to close but left up since it had managed to accumulate information some might find useful.
Among the many mysteries of learning to listen, there are THREE TIMES as many ear cells devoted to detecting frequencies ABOVE AND BEYOND our so-called audible limit (20kHz) and that is just for starters.
Functional MRI shows we do process music and language in different areas. What I find most fascinating, why I started the discussions, there are many aspects of sounds we do not seem capable of hearing without the language to describe them.
Which comes first, the words or the hearing? I know from experience I was unable to hear any difference between various DACs and CDP until after I read Harley's book (see above) and learned some of these terms. Then slowly, gradually, I began to become aware of some of these same sonic attributes I was hearing.
Attack, body or sustain, decay. Resolution, grainy or liquid. Timbre. And a lot more. All these are there with every sound, be it cymbal or guitar string. At some point it hit me, the words became associated with the sounds, and from that point on they became increasingly easy to identify. Before this happened all I could say was one sounds a little better. But I couldn't say why, couldn't even be sure. That all changed and now it is easy, both to hear and almost always the differences are also easy to describe. It is more a question of how much time do we have and how much detail do you want? Where before it was just, "better, sort of."
Pretty sure I know how this happens. How we learn. It is like I said before, repetition literally re-wires the brain. New neural connections are made. Like learning to drive a car or golf ball it doesn't "just happen". Nobody ever learned to hit home runs by just swinging the bat a lot. The usual advice people give to just listen a lot, while better than nothing just ain't gonna do it. You need to be actively listening, actively thinking about what you are hearing, not just comparing one thing with another but thinking about how what you are hearing aligns with terms like liquid/grainy, extended/rolled off, recessed/forward, etc.
In other words I think how we learn audio is no different than how we learn other skills like rock climbing, performance driving, etc. We don't just go play a lot of tennis, we read books, watch the pro's, get a coach to learn how to swing the racquet, and then practice, practice, practice. But it does no good to practice the wrong technique. Bad habits are harder to unlearn than good ones are to learn. So the learning how to do it right part has to come first.
Well, sorry mc, i must of missed your previous threads. At any rate, I think there must be some differences between how people learn a motor skill and how they assimilate music. Many people will lose previously acquired motor skills (my 93 year old mother, who lives in another state but with who i talk with every morning, has frequently told me that she can't figure out how to get dressed). We call these motor apraxias, but as the examples cited earlier there has to be an awful lot of brain deterioration before the ability to recognize and make music occurs. I do think the skills that are acquired at a very young age, such as music, are more durable than those created during the teens and adulthood. However, I think that your basic points are correct, that the brain, and the hearing apparatus, has a lot of redundant capacity, and that capacity can be retrained and utilized
Indeed we know that it is impossible to perceive "clearly" something, even to perceive it at all, without any name or concept about it...For example the fist Aztecs "perceiving" Cortès boats dont perrceive boats at
Learning is always a 2 ways speech/mind gesture toward a body gesture in some living space... And also a body gesture reaction to a speech/mind gesture...
«Reading this i dont know anymore what a gesture is»-Groucho Marx 🤓
«Hearing is a gesture even before becoming the act of listening »-Anonymus Smith
«Your body speak well before your throat »-Anonymus Sioux chief
Interesting conversation. Having words to describe attributes is critical. One could come up with them yourselves… but I am guessing learning would be an order of magnitude or several orders of magnitude slower.
There are certain people… good at being on the cutting edge of stuff, who know how to differentiate and categorize stuff… then organize it all, create a vocabulary, and communicate to others… thinking Darwin… Einstein. The miracle of humans is the ability to learn from others very very rapidly. Think you can learn the lessons of Darwin’s lifetime in a short time.
I was embedded in one of the centers of innovation when the basics of plate tectonics was being worked out in the 1970’s at the University of Oregon. It was a frenzy of ideas, new terminology, old terms being thrown out… it was like being a washing machine. But as I was able to match ideas to all the terms thrown around, piece by piece a coherent picture developed… a coherent self consistent global view. It was so intoxicating.
The same true in audio. I listened, read, listened, read thought and slowly a global picture of all the sound characteristics, components, and relationships developed. Not having words leaves you mind grasping for something amorphous… can’t put your finger on it.
I was a French Bordeaux fanatic when young… but got busy. I just recently decided to really learn wines. I have read several books, I got a professional set of 88 auromas, and have been systematically sampling and describing wines. It has been incredible as my sniffing and tasting descriptions have gone from a “a bit sweet”, to “rich plum with a mild blackberry overtones”… etc. my perception has gone from vague to very particular and quickly and clearly discernible details. It is as if being nearly blind and step by step having better and better glasses bring the world into focus. I ride my bike and notice the scent of flowers, wet maple leaves. Using your senses, focusing on it, and assigning words is critical. And you advancement can be phenomenal.
Well, pardon me I need to check out the bouquet of this 2018 Chateau La Tonnelle! This also can be intoxicating.
Indeed we know that it is impossible to perceive "clearly" something,
even to perceive it at all, without any name or concept about it...For
example the fist Aztecs "perceiving" Cortès boats dont perrceive boats
at
Beauty. Got another one. Check this out.
Carl Sagan recounts in his book The Dragon's of Eden how he asked his son at a very early age what is the first thing you can remember? And he said, "It was red, and I was very cold." His son had been born by c-section. So that was Carl. Then there's me.
As a little kid growing up, and I mean like couple years old, I had this recurring dream or vision, or memory, don't even know what to call it. The most fascinating sparkly gleaming lights shining, sometimes waving, with the marvelous sense of floating weightless and even better, a deep sense of Oneness. Don't know what else to call it. This memory/feeling would come and go and every time made me so happy, joyous, just the best feeling ever. Whatever it was. Back then, for some reason or other, I wondered about this more than anything else. What was it???
Then one day my parents have friends over and I hear my dad, he loved to brag about me all the time, his first born son and all that. He is telling his friend how he didn't want me to be afraid of the water. So he took me to the pool when I was still a little baby. Had me floating in the water. How I was loving it, happy as a little clam, kept my eyes open even when he let me go under the water.
Eureka! That was it! The lights, the floating, that was it!
Best I can figure, this early memory was formed at a time when I was so young and unformed there was no way of making any kind of sense out of it. But it made such an impression it endured nonetheless. Until I knew enough to understand, and then wow, all at once it did make sense.
Just as with the Aztec's the experience itself is not enough. We need information to understand, or else it is all meaningless shifting patterns of light. Or sound.
The information we need to perceive correctly a phenomenon is always given to us by our culture, our body, or especially which is greatly underestimated, by the imagination/intuition/ inspirational attention to specific things even in dreams....
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