How Do You Learn?

@nonoise Thanks for the link. 

Some have misinterpreted the intent of this post.

I ask for one source to be suggested because if everyone submits
his or her favorite place to learn then I can assemble a fresh list
for myself. 

It is not that I think one source is all that a person needs.

So far I see I have several new things to look into.

Thanks to all who contributed!

@chorus
YOUR ears are the best on determining what YOU like. If you cannot obtain your desired component to try in your own system before you purchase, then it’s advisable to sift through reviews, taking into account their audio chains and their experience in reviewing other components, and component to component comparisons, is likely the best option to help you decide if you’d like to roll the dice and purchase like many of us here. If you get enough reviews saying similar things, then chances are that you’ll likely get the same results in your audio chain provided that your audio chain is a good match- nothing is guaranteed.

Buying used may be a good option to demo, then you can sell if unsatisfactory with hopefully minimum net cash outlay.

Thanks perkri....

Really great post indeed.....

Such a great thread!

Thank you all who have shared so personally.

When I was in film school, we had a prof who had an amazing approach to teaching.

I forget the context this bit came out in class, but here goes.

(this relates to MC’s thoughts on listening and learning how to hear)

The discussion went something like this. Cave drawings were outlines. The idea he presented (which was not his, but from others research) argued that as primitive beings, we saw the world as outlines. These outline drawings became solids at a point. The solids eventually became detailed. Visual representation was up until this point depicting a 2 dimensional world. Then perspective (forgive the pun) came into the picture. The development of artificial “sight”, follows the exact same trajectory. Edge detection, solid/form detection, detail detection and finally perspective.

The theory goes something like this. As primitive beings, it is speculated that we could only see edges. Then someone drew solid forms, and we learned to see solids. Then details and finally perspective. The theory goes that we learned to see in a more complex way, we didn’t always have access to the full spectrum we now have. Artificial object detection has followed the same path.

So, being able to see was an evolved process. 
This is where I spin that to audio.

Here’s the difference between sight and sound. Prior to recorded/reproduced sound, our biological hearing abilities evolved to where they needed to be. Meaning, we only need to be able to hear so much to be able to survive. Recorded sound is new. Recorded images, go waaaaaay back.

So, now that we can record and reproduce sounds in a manner, and of a quality beyond what we can currently “hear”, that doesn’t mean that what we currently hear is actually the limit of what our ears are capable of identifying. As we develop new technologies, and as we continue to live with the technologies we currently have access to, our hearing, like our vision will continue to evolve. We are limited biologically by the demands placed on our hearing

 That happened in real time for me btw, I never made that correlation before.

 I was fortunate to have a patient man train me for a bit during my first few weeks at Mountain Bell. He was an old bugger named Bud Wheeler. A bit of an old hillbilly, 'cept when you got to know him. One day I came into the crew room to show Bud my new NASA approved space pen ($25). I says, "Look Bud, this pen can write upside down, under water, through grease, in freezing weather or hot on most any surface." He replies, "Yah Greg, I got one of those." I said, "No Bud, you can only get these through a special purchase." I was pretty sure that he just misunderstood me. Bud pulled from his overalls, from the front top pocket, a yellow #2 pencil. "See he says, It writes upside down or not, under water, through grease, and in any temperature too." 

 And THATS how I learn.

I will recommend salt lamp instead ...

In addition to be also like lava lamp, an interesting looking appearence, they have an audible effect on sound...Ionization or crystal effect, or the two together, i dont know...A chinese audiophile group made the same observation about sound effect than me.... I am no more the only one fool...

But it is not a superlative change for sure but anyway a subtle very audible change for the better.... Not unlike my 3 ionizers...I never speak about them here because too much "brain dead scientism"....I like the orange diffusive light a lot, and the effect on sound is welcome...For peanuts cost... They are under my desk not too far from the speakers and between them, and the third is just beside one speaker....
I like orange color.... It have a soothing effect on soul for me...

I listen music with half the time eyes open, because sound is different not better though, just different, if the eyes are closed or opened but in the darker orange light...

😁😊



«Bach is orange color»-Groucho Marx 🤓

«Is Hendrix zebra white/blue ?»-Harpo Marx in heaven  

If you are still looking for a dim light dabel have you tried a lava lamp?

What was the question?

even my great and legendary Sensei Chihiro Nakao has himself a sensei….

i find those consciously without,  are mostly on an ego trip….sail on….

 The faculty to admire is linked to our capacity to higher perception of phenomenon and values...

It humble ourself and put us at work...

 Thanks for this great reminder tomic60.....

even my great and legendary Sensei Chihiro Nakao has himself a sensei….

i find those consciously without,  are mostly on an ego trip….sail on….

Don’t mess with mahgister and his acoustic POWERFUL methods. Cardinal rule.

I also could not resist

Regards

Great point!
😊😊😊😊😊

Remember though that it is very important to create a balance between the marketing publicity and the conditioned urge to upgrade like sheep behind the audio magazine and sound science...

Acoustic embeddings controls is not publicity...

Embed everything right bbefore upgrading.... Is a cardinal rule....Thanks for this good choice of word.....

by not taking any advice from anyone on these forums. Then building and repairing equipment where you can try out different parts to learn what makes the sound sound the way it does.

You are right on the spot for the first sentence!

 But if i had listened to you only  and only repair myself my amplifier or speaker i would had never experimented and used acoustic powerful method....

Then listen to "almost"  nobody...Listen and experiment....

Read acoustic and experiment....

I apologize but i could not resist to your post appeal.....

My best to you....

😁😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊

by not taking any advice from anyone on these forums.  Then building and repairing equipment where you can try out different parts to learn what makes the sound sound the way it does.

Yes or course read all and a lot, but one... Listen!

The information we need to perceive correctly a phenomenon  is always given to us by our culture, our body, or especially which is greatly  underestimated, by the imagination/intuition/ inspirational attention to specific things even in dreams....

Well, pardon me I need to check out the bouquet of this 2018 Chateau La Tonnelle! This also can be intoxicating.

Thanks
ghdprentice for your interesting posts indeed....

Very moving stories millercarbon.... Thanks very much.....

Indeed we know that it is impossible to perceive "clearly" something, even to perceive it at all, without any name or concept about it...For example the fist Aztecs "perceiving" Cortès boats dont perrceive boats at  

Beauty. Got another one. Check this out.  

Carl Sagan recounts in his book The Dragon's of Eden how he asked his son at a very early age what is the first thing you can remember? And he said, "It was red, and I was very cold." His son had been born by c-section. So that was Carl. Then there's me.

As a little kid growing up, and I mean like couple years old, I had this recurring dream or vision, or memory, don't even know what to call it. The most fascinating sparkly gleaming lights shining, sometimes waving, with the marvelous sense of floating weightless and even better, a deep sense of Oneness. Don't know what else to call it. This memory/feeling would come and go and every time made me so happy, joyous, just the best feeling ever. Whatever it was. Back then, for some reason or other, I wondered about this more than anything else. What was it???    

Then one day my parents have friends over and I hear my dad, he loved to brag about me all the time, his first born son and all that. He is telling his friend how he didn't want me to be afraid of the water. So he took me to the pool when I was still a little baby. Had me floating in the water. How I was loving it, happy as a little clam, kept my eyes open even when he let me go under the water.  

Eureka! That was it! The lights, the floating, that was it!  

Best I can figure, this early memory was formed at a time when I was so young and unformed there was no way of making any kind of sense out of it. But it made such an impression it endured nonetheless. Until I knew enough to understand, and then wow, all at once it did make sense.  

Just as with the Aztec's the experience itself is not enough. We need information to understand, or else it is all meaningless shifting patterns of light. Or sound.

Interesting conversation. Having words to describe attributes is critical. One could come up with them yourselves… but I am guessing learning would be an order of magnitude or several orders of magnitude slower.

There are certain people… good at being on the cutting edge of stuff, who know how to differentiate and categorize stuff… then organize it all, create a vocabulary, and communicate to others… thinking Darwin… Einstein. The miracle of humans is the ability to learn from others very very rapidly. Think you can learn the lessons of Darwin’s lifetime in a short time.

I was embedded in one of the centers of innovation when the basics of plate tectonics was being worked out in the 1970’s at the University of Oregon. It was a frenzy of ideas, new terminology, old terms being thrown out… it was like being a washing machine. But as I was able to match ideas to all the terms thrown around, piece by piece a coherent picture developed… a coherent self consistent global view. It was so intoxicating.


The same true in audio. I listened, read, listened, read thought and slowly a global picture of all the sound characteristics, components, and relationships developed. Not having words leaves you mind grasping for something amorphous… can’t put your finger on it.

I was a French Bordeaux fanatic when young… but got busy. I just recently decided to really learn wines. I have read several books, I got a professional set of 88 auromas, and have been systematically sampling and describing wines. It has been incredible as my sniffing and tasting descriptions have gone from a “a bit sweet”, to “rich plum with a mild blackberry overtones”… etc. my perception has gone from vague to very particular and quickly and clearly discernible details. It is as if being nearly blind and step by step having better and better glasses bring the world into focus. I ride my bike and notice the scent of flowers, wet maple leaves. Using your senses, focusing on it, and assigning words is critical. And you advancement can be phenomenal.


Well, pardon me I need to check out the bouquet of this 2018 Chateau La Tonnelle! This also can be intoxicating.

Good posts thanks millercarbon...

Indeed we know that it is impossible to perceive "clearly" something, even to perceive it at all, without any name or concept about it...For example the fist Aztecs "perceiving" Cortès boats dont perrceive boats at  

Learning is always a 2 ways speech/mind gesture toward a body gesture in some living space... And also a body gesture reaction to a speech/mind gesture...




«Reading this i dont know anymore what a gesture is»-Groucho Marx 🤓

«Hearing is a gesture even before becoming the act of listening »-Anonymus Smith

«Your body speak well before your throat »-Anonymus Sioux chief

«Silence could be a gesture brother »- Harpo Marx

«The dogs are not barking»-Sherlock Holmes

Well, sorry mc, i must of missed your previous threads.  At any rate, I think there must be some differences between how people learn a motor skill and how they assimilate music.  Many people will lose previously acquired motor skills (my 93 year old mother, who lives in another state but with who i talk with every morning, has frequently told me that she can't figure out how to get dressed).  We call these motor apraxias, but as the examples cited earlier there has to be an awful lot of brain deterioration before the ability to recognize and make music occurs.  I do think the skills that are acquired at a very young age, such as music, are more durable than those created during the teens and adulthood.  However, I think that your basic points are correct, that the brain, and the hearing apparatus, has a lot of redundant capacity, and that capacity can be retrained and utilized

We learn music in different areas of the brain than other language skills.  Do we therefore learn to hear differences in the reproduction of musical sounds in a similar way?  I have no idea.  This is also different from what the OP intended, but a lot more interesting.

Indeed, it is so interesting I started not one, not two, but THREE threads trying to discuss this very topic! Two of them were trashed by the usual know-nothings so fast and thoroughly I had them removed. The third I had to close but left up since it had managed to accumulate information some might find useful.  

Among the many mysteries of learning to listen, there are THREE TIMES as many ear cells devoted to detecting frequencies ABOVE AND BEYOND our so-called audible limit (20kHz) and that is just for starters.    

Functional MRI shows we do process music and language in different areas. What I find most fascinating, why I started the discussions, there are many aspects of sounds we do not seem capable of hearing without the language to describe them.    

Which comes first, the words or the hearing? I know from experience I was unable to hear any difference between various DACs and CDP until after I read Harley's book (see above) and learned some of these terms. Then slowly, gradually, I began to become aware of some of these same sonic attributes I was hearing.    

Attack, body or sustain, decay. Resolution, grainy or liquid. Timbre. And a lot more. All these are there with every sound, be it cymbal or guitar string. At some point it hit me, the words became associated with the sounds, and from that point on they became increasingly easy to identify. Before this happened all I could say was one sounds a little better. But I couldn't say why, couldn't even be sure. That all changed and now it is easy, both to hear and almost always the differences are also easy to describe. It is more a question of how much time do we have and how much detail do you want? Where before it was just, "better, sort of."   

Pretty sure I know how this happens. How we learn. It is like I said before, repetition literally re-wires the brain. New neural connections are made. Like learning to drive a car or golf ball it doesn't "just happen". Nobody ever learned to hit home runs by just swinging the bat a lot. The usual advice people give to just listen a lot, while better than nothing just ain't gonna do it. You need to be actively listening, actively thinking about what you are hearing, not just comparing one thing with another but thinking about how what you are hearing aligns with terms like liquid/grainy, extended/rolled off, recessed/forward, etc.    

In other words I think how we learn audio is no different than how we learn other skills like rock climbing, performance driving, etc. We don't just go play a lot of tennis, we read books, watch the pro's, get a coach to learn how to swing the racquet, and then practice, practice, practice. But it does no good to practice the wrong technique. Bad habits are harder to unlearn than good ones are to learn. So the learning how to do it right part has to come first.

basic Kaizen principle; Learn / Do !

each inform the other

+++++ @tvad The Jim Smith book is awesome, i buy them used and hand out like candy…..

@chorus

You say the book costs nothing, please elaborate.

Please forgive my imprecise language.

To be clear, the book, which costs $37.70 plus tax and shipping, is filled with tips and suggestions that cost nothing additional other than one’s time.

Now, someone will surely reply with a "gotcha" that Jim Smith recommends some tools that are helpful, therefore adding cost: laser level, laser measuring tool, system evaluation CD, measuring tape, multimeter, AC polarity tester, small hand mirror, flashlight, removable tape. Most of us own a measuring tape, roll of blue tape, small mirror, flashlight. Those items alone will be sufficient to implement many of Jim’s tips.

Fingers crossed, I’ve covered the bases of potential costs, but I likely have forgotten one or two.

Hope that helps.

Like i already said i learned mainly by listenings experiments.... Many hundreds one...Reading dont replace listenings experiments no more than buying upgrades...

The musical files for example i play right now were the same that i played on the same system 2 years ago....

They are now unrecognizable...

Same speakers, same dac, and same amplifier...

Only change are room acoustic passive treatment AND active controls, also controls over mechanical vibrations, and some decreasing control over the noise floor level of my house...


Results are so astounding that a file i listened to one or two years ago reveal so much details that the music is almost unrecognizable, like a new album...

It is the REASON why i defended my point about embeddings controls of the working embeddings dimensions over and BEFORE any upgrade....

Reading is good, i learned basic acoustic principle by reading, but i understood them REALLY only by experimenting with them...

Then i will not recommend any books there is much good one recommeded here.... But experimenting is the key....Upgrading is a deception most of the times....How do you know if what you bargain for in upgrade is really better if you had never listen to the true S.Q. potential peak of your actual system already ?

Tvad, A trip to do a session with Jim is a consideration.
You say the book costs nothing, please elaborate.

Jim Smith’s "Get Better Sound". Filled with tips and suggestions that will improve a system, and cost nothing but one's time. 

Should be a companion piece to Harley’s book.

I like millercarbon’s post above and would extend it to music. Did anyone see the recent Tony Bennet segment on 60 Minutes? He is deep in the throes of Alzheimer’s but start playing music or put him in front of an audience and a different person emerges. I have seen stroke patients who have been aplastic for years suddenly belt out Christmas Carols when the music comes on. We learn music in different areas of the brain than other language skills. Do we therefore learn to hear differences in the reproduction of musical sounds in a similar way? I have no idea. This is also different from what the OP intended, but a lot more interesting.

Very interesting posts thanks....

Unlike paintings perhaps or colors , sounds and music in a more direct way elicit and and provoke our fellings, will and memories and habits in a deeper way...

All main important events are associated often with a particular music for us or even for the collective...

Then the Tony Bennet  we knows, buried deep under the brain degeneration, could express itself when related to the music and says "hy there! i am here but cannot do nothing more than react to the event "....

It is incredibly moving and suggest the fragility of our essence and at the same time his persistence in spite of the body glue....

Getting back to the original intent, this hobby is is infiltrated by people with agendas.  I like Robert Harley’s books, probably as reasonable a single source as any, but I am very suspicious of him ever since he went whole hog on MQA.  Forget Trump’s tax returns, I would love to see if RH gets any income Bob Stuart.  I learn a lot from these forums, but when something interests me that I encounter here I try to read up on it elsewhere.    Why does the OP want to restrict himself to a single source?  Would you want a Doctor operating on you who has only read a single journal article?

 I like millercarbon’s post above and would extend it to music.  Did anyone see the recent Tony Bennet segment on 60 Minutes?  He is deep in the throes of Alzheimer’s but start playing music or put him in front of an audience and a different person emerges.  I have seen stroke patients who have been aplastic for years suddenly belt out Christmas Carols when the music comes on.  We learn music in different areas of the brain than other language skills.  Do we therefore learn to hear differences in the reproduction of musical sounds in a similar way?  I have no idea.  This is also different from what the OP intended, but a lot more interesting.

Your ears are the only source that matters.  You either hear it or you don't.  Expecting a single source to provide you the same thing your ears tell you is pretty naive.  To learn what's really going on in HIFI you need to collect as much input as possible and let your ears be your filter. Also realizing that in the future what you hear and listen for may change. All those sources you thought weren't of value, could now be very informative  Unfortunately that's how I learn, thru trial and error.
Or just go to Best Buy they know everything... Just ask them