Help settle a streaming argument!

@dave777tx 

Hi.  Side bar here.

I have an Innuos Zentih Mk3 and Phoenix USB.  I'm committed to this path so I2S and other methods of sending to 1s and 0s to my Chord Qutest DAC don't interest me.

That being said, do you think I should add the Phoenix NET switch and an audiophile ethernet cable (e.g., AQ Diamond) to the mix?  I am an engineer and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the concept of spending another $3-4 k to maximize my streaming experience.

Thanks!

OP - I upgraded my 2i with the PD Creative board and added a LPS. Was the out come better than a stock 2i, yes it was. I used the 2i as a steamer only. For years I’ve done a lot of sideways moves with gear and recently decided to bite the bullet actually upgrade my digital front end. After weeks of research I concluded that the streamer would be the first piece to upgrade. Seriously, the Zen Mk 3 completely trounces my 2i/LPS. It really feels like an end game piece of gear for me. No reason to move my DAC out. Stop with the word games and honestly at this point I could care less what you believe. Do the work yourself, you haven’t put enough time into it. Buy a used higher end streamer and try it. If you don’t hear a difference sell it you might lose a little bit of coin or even break even then report back to us. It might be ear opening!

@polkalover 

Just because someone can't explain the reason in actual scientific terms, does not mean that the improvement in sound quality doesn't exist.

Audiophiles use their ears to evaluate whether a given component improves or degrades the sound quality, while polkalovers rely on measurements to tell them what they like.

Of course, you knew this when you asked the question.

Or maybe you actually do believe that the hundreds of thousands of audiophiles that buy expensive streamers or dacs are all fooling themselves and only you know the truth.

 

@drlou77 I wish I could tell you that there is no difference but it is and a lot, probably it was one of the biggest improvements with Innuos but before ordering one I will suggest you to test it in your system, fortunately there are great Innuos dealers that can work that with you. 

 

When I installed mine, I still was talking with the dealer 10 mins after he connected it, music was in the background and I could tell the improvement. 

 

I think maybe as you go up in the streamers ladder the difference is more subtle but with the Zenith MK3 it made a lot of difference in my system

One more, also a good cable made a big difference

My 2 cents 

 

Thanks and good luck 

@dave777tx 

Thanks for your feedback.  It's on my Christmas list!

Rich

curiousjim- I don’t have an answer for you. I don’t have NAS and I'm just storing the ripped CD’s in the Innuos.

@cleeds Are you always so gruff?

 

Could you please point me to the post you referred to that gives the explanation?

thanks,

jerry

 

PS  I just bought a $13K streamer.

I started out with a Cocktail Audio X45 streamer.  I ripped all my CD's to an internal hard drive and it sounded pretty good, at least as good as my cd player.  I finally upgraded that to an Auralic Aries G2.1 and it blew away the X45, so I can tell you the streamer matters.  The biggest quip I have with the Auralic is the APP, it really is not any better than the Cocktail APP when it comes to usability.  I bit the bullet and ordered an Aurender N20 which should be here tomorrow, I am hoping for a lot better interface with their APP and according to Upscale the sound quality should be a lot better, they have never steered me wrong yet.  I have the streamer running through a PS Audio MK2 DAC which is very good, and from there to a BHK preamp then to BHK 300 mono's.

@fastfreight +1

Yes, streamer and CD transport are very important. 

I sense alot of folks hold that in digital (sources),  a file is a file.  That 1s and 0s dont get scrambled no matter the price-point yet will agree that a LPS can make a difference.  Does an inferior PS flip bits or is the decoding software failing intermittently without a "better power supply".   How would a LPS affect these rote processes?  Not saying I have a dog in any fight but these two positions seem at odds to me.   Not talking analog in this regard, nor amps.  

My experience so far:  I bought a PS Audio Direct Stream DAC/ Streamer with the the Bridge !! ethernet adapter about a month ago. In short the DAC is great but the Bridge II card left a lot to be desired. The music was dull and flat. All but the really well engineered recordings were a drag to listen to. Just disappointing. Plus it kept dropping the internet signal. 

In my frustration I called PS Audio for tech support and was persuaded to try the AirLens Streamer. It arrived yesterday (10/23)  Night and day. I was amazed. It was money well spent. The card is pretty simple vs. the AirLens which is a good bit bigger, heavier, and has multiple connections. 

Conclusion:  Buy an expensive streamer. You won't remember the price after a while and the joy of all that music out there at your fingertips is exhilarating. 

https://imgur.com/a/WAjzRtA

https://imgur.com/a/WAjzRtA

Here is my experience as of yesterday 10/23:  

I bought a PS Audio Direct Stream DAC with the above bridge card in it. I love the DAC- way better than my other DAC experiences. The Bridge II was a disappointing experience. The music was flat and lifeless. It also dropped internet syncing which caused me to seek tech support which caused me to upgrade to an AirLens streamer. What a difference!  Night and day. 

My conclusion is this: Buy the best source you can afford- be it a streamer or any other source because...garbage in garbage out. 

This was a great discussion!!! My perspective is that streamers vary in SQ based on the observations of members of this forum. This would indicate to me coloration of signal going into the DAC is added to the actual digital file and that the engineer who designed the stream designed that coloration into it based on the capabilities of the components used. Do some streamers sound better than others or are they just different? Ok, back to speaker cables, now there is something we can all agree on!  :>)

Well...  engineers: they certainly put the 'fun' in function, and now the 'color' in coloration. Wizards they are. It was a magic carpet ride watching a rainbow attached to a digital file.

I have heard about jitter for years.  I’ve spun thousands of CD’s and finally ripped all of my music years ago.

I’m 60 and have been into “higher end” audio since the 70’s.  Although, I’m still a bit on a beer budget.

I’m on the “low end”; I stream from an iPad, which goes into an Audiobyte Black Drragon DAC.

So, what does “jitter” sound like, if I may ask.

Thanks,

@david_ten +1

@mteetank - not at all. Engineers are not designing the streamer to provide a certain coloration, but are trying to design the colorations out.

Digital data is read as a 1 or a 0. But how is a DAC to understand a 1 or a 0 when the actual signal is a voltage variation? Described simply, the signal can be represented as a sign wave and when the voltage hits a certain level, it is interpreted as a flipping to the other value. The sign wave has a positive and negative slope as the voltage varies. The steepness of that slope are influenced by a number of factors, and even minor differences here can cause timing variations in the signal (jitter or word clock error) even though the data is bit perfect in every way.

It turns out our ears are highly attuned to the distortions caused by jitter - even femto seconds of such are discernible. Lots of jitter hurts my ears - it’s sounds “glassy” or “steely” in the treble region.

Further, noise (not hiss, but typically EMF induced) is transmitted along the digital cable to the DAC. This too may cause distortions.

A better streamer will typically have the proverbial “blacker” background and will offer more spatial cues/information. Poor streamers may introduce enough jitter (even to DACs supposedly immune to jitter) that the sound becomes thinner or “steely” sounding. 

Others will greater technical knowledge can correct any deficiencies or inaccuracies in what I’ve stated above, but this does speak to the gist of the problem attempting to be solved by high performing streamers.

As others have noted, a good streamer will elevate and allow the full performance of an otherwise high performance system. A bad streamer will cripple the same to some extent.

Many times I see people post here and conclude their comments with “and it sounds great!”. I’m sure that’s true. But, if they’re using a mediocre streamer in their digital system, I can only say it doesn’t sound as great as it might as it’s only in direct comparison that the differences are readily revealed. 

I’m on the “low end”; I stream from an iPad, which goes into an Audiobyte Black Drragon DAC.  So, what does “jitter” sound like, if I may ask.

@boltapuresource I started streaming from my iPad and thought it was fine, but adding even a budget iFi Zen Stream streamer ($399) provided a huge performance boost so I’d highly recommend trying a streamer in your system.  Jitter has been described as hard, etched, glare, etc. and is a big factor in why saying something sounds “digital” has negative connotations.  Hope that makes sense. 

I use Roon.  Roon bridge is a raspberry pi, Intel nuc is roon core in another room. DAC is a chord qutest. Been setup this way for sometime.  I pickuped an Innuous Zen mini with separate PSU for a trial.  Returned it after a weekend and told them no noticed difference in my setup.  I'm told I am the first person not 'blown away' by the streamer 

 

is it my audioquest USB cable, my Cisco switch, my cat 6 cable or my lack of golden ear is the culprit?  I've switched Dacs and noticed differences in the past...

I use Roon. Roon bridge is a raspberry pi, Intel nuc is roon core in another room. DAC is a chord qutest. Been setup this way for sometime. I pickuped an Innuous Zen mini with separate PSU for a trial. Returned it after a weekend and told them no noticed difference in my setup. I’m told I am the first person not ’blown away’ by the streamer

@rgottschalk Hard to say why the Innuos didn’t make a meaningful improvement although I’ve read the Pi isn’t exactly a slouch as a streamer, but it is still a little surprising especially since you had a separate PSU (that I assume was a LPS). What pre, amp, and speakers are you using?

I’m not familiar with Roon, so is that your music source or do you use a separate music streaming service like Qobuz, etc., and I believe Innuos streamers are Roon ready so does that mean you can bypass the Nuc? (please forgive my embarrassing Roon ignorance) — wondering if you had the Innuos set up optimally to work with Roon? Just throwing darts here.

@rgottschalk 

Or, perhaps your Roon bridge and Intel Nuc is just fine and that your related hardware is helping things along. 

Of course, it can be difficult to compare because it takes time to connect different devices so A/B is hard. But it could be that all is just fine with your system. Be grateful. 

Be that as it may, your experience does not negate the experience of others.

Perhaps there is a way to help conceptualize why streamers can (not always) make a difference via a simple test most of us can do at home. Some will claim it’s an unfair test, to which i would reply I’m suggesting it only to illustrate the concept of why a clean and jitter free signal to a DAC is important - the function of a streamer.

Here’s the test: regardless of your streaming source (hi-end or not) try using a cheap analog RCA interconnect to the SPDIF input of your DAC. A digital spdif cable has an impedance (75 ohm) designed for digital transmission. But, the cheap RCA cable will transmit the digital information to your DAC - all the 1 and 0s that are supposed to be there will be there. Yet it won’t sound right. Why?

The impedance mismatch of the analog cable is causing a change in the slope of the voltage changes introducing jitter to the DAC.

Yes - not exactly the same thing as a streamer - but it does illustrate that 1s and 0s can be bit perfect yet not sound correct. 

This test does not illustrate the significant efforts to eliminate noise taken by manufacturers of streaming devices.That too produces audible beneficial effects.

@soix 

Thank you!

@soix Thanks for your input.

I am using Balanced Audio Technology (BAT) monoblock amps VK-255SE and BAT VK-33 Preamp. Daedalus Audio Apollo 11 speakers .  Audioquest Mecenna interconnects, audioquest cinnamon USB, and chord qutest DAC.

 

@soix Thanks for your input.

I am using Balanced Audio Technology (BAT) monoblock amps VK-255SE and BAT VK-33 Preamp. Daedalus Audio Apollo 11 speakers .  Audioquest Mecenna interconnects, audioquest cinnamon USB, and chord qutest DAC.  Qobuzz through Roon, and I tried the Innuous as a roon endpoint and as well as the core.no difference.

@rgottschalk Thanks for the additional info, and nice system BTW! Unfortunately I got nuthin’ further to offer here but would be very interested in hearing thoughts of others with more streaming knowledge and experience here because I’m scratching my head a bit over this one. I will say given the overall level of your system I’d consider a DAC upgrade. The Qutest is a great DAC for the $$$ fer sure, but you do get quite a bit more even just moving up the Chord line, at least that’s what I’ve read from other Chord customers and FWIW.

@polkalover 

I liken it to cd players or the more pretentious cd transport argument.

There is nothing inherently "pretentious" about choosing separate transport and DAC over a CDP.  For many of us,the former route is a superior choice due to what we hear -- it has absolutely nothing to do with an "uppity attitude". 

 

@rgottschalk The Audioquest Cinnamon is a good low cost/high value cable...but not up to the rest of your system...I use one with my computer...borrow some USB cables and give it a try...made a difference for me

stuartk

There is nothing inherently "pretentious" about choosing separate transport and DAC over a CDP.  For many of us,the former route is a superior choice due to what we hear ...

Of course. It's also more practical because you can replace the transport as it ages out (they are all subject to mechanical as well as laser wear) without replacing the DAC. Or, you can upgrade your DAC without replacing the transport. Typically in  audio, I prefer separate components for flexibility.

Short answer, yes it does.....greatly.

I started with a Node 130 into a Denafrips Pontus II using several different connections, and thought it sounded great.....but this was my first steaming set up. Added a Denafrips Iris DDC at the recommendation of Alvin Chee at Vinshine and I2S cables (Audioquest Vodka (better at $500) and Supra Excalibur (a deal at $150). This was a huge leap in SQ. Later added an LHY linear power supply $279, which upped the anti as well, and the sound is something I could (and do currently do) live with for quite a while.

Here's the rub: I was silly enough to borrow an Aurender N10 and a N200 streamer, and they were stupid good. I am now saving the $6,000 for an Aurender/Lumin/Innuous, at which point I'll sell the Node set up. Once I heard the SQ improvement, I cannot "unhear" it.....it's only money after all

@vthokie83 been there done exactly that.  Unless you’re planning to upgrade your DAC, I’d suggest trying the Aurender N150 with your Pontus.  I own both the N150 and N200 and when tried with my Pontus, there was no significant difference in SQ.  Now once I tried the same two streamers with my Terminator Plus, the up tic in SQ was quite noticeable.

@rgottschalk with your system I’m very surprised that you did not hear a rather significant difference in SQ with the Zen mini.  While the Cinnamon USB could be improved upon I don’t believe you will still hear much improvement.  Did you give things time to settle in?  Not being blown away I could possibly understand, but something else was going on to not hear any difference. If you haven’t sent the mini back, I’d suggest trying things again taking Roon out of the equation.  Not really sure how Roon could be the culprit either but again with your other components, it’s the only thing I can think of that's preventing an improvement.

Thanks to everyone for the input and insights.  

Ask this same question on other audio forums and you’re likely to get a very different consensus. The difference lies in the prevailing belief systems adopted by the largest demographic of these forums. Members here generally dismiss the notion that measurements or visual data can reveal the factors that determine the whole of sound quality. Mostly, members here approach the topic from a purely subjective standpoint, even neglecting to level-match the component outputs in most cases. And in some cases, you’ll encounter claims that they conducted blind, level-matched comparisons with a group of friends, when in reality they did nothing of the sort.

However, in the “science-based” forums, you’ll encounter similar claims in support of the opposing stance, again, by those who didn’t really make the painstaking effort to remain objective. 
 

Coincidentally, I’ve yet to encounter a dealer on any of these forums who doesn’t fall into the “all-streamers-sound-different” camp. Perhaps it’s equally ironic that I encounter the “all-streamers-sound-the-same” people in the forums largely populated by budget gear users. 
 

In essence, this is one those questions you ultimately must decide for yourself, relying on whatever comparison controls you deem sufficient. Otherwise, you can consult half a dozen forums and still end up back where you began.

I will point out that those who conduct and trust all known digital data measurement parameters have concluded that any decent budget streamer will perform as good as the high dollar units when paired with external DACs. 

It all matters. Your ears will tell you the truth.

@helomech Very nice. Well said. 

Not true a cheap streamer creates a lot of noise ,it has a cheap $10 wall wart powersupply .  Plus junk for parts ,rule of thumb 25% at most goes into the cost including packaging ,   R&D over head and markup. Meaning a $1k streamer less then $225 that’s complete , pure rubbish .

a good LPS powersupply like $750 linear tube audio ,is a great buy  I have one on my Motorola 8702 modem- router , and makes a solid difference in not only wifi forthe tv  but much lower noise ,going to my SW8 Hub witha ocxo oven controlled clock, Talema LPS and low noise regulators, for$600 a excellent buy ,and added a good Hifi tuning fuse ,and Pangea sig mk2 awg14 power cord , all make it even betterstill.

@audioman58 

There are suckers born every minute. 

Those of us who have actually done the experiment, switching from either a computer or low quality streamer to a high quality streamer, have heard an unmistakable improvement in sound quality. Even if we don't have the technical know-how to explain it. However, other, smarter people have said it boils down to jitter. Even the best DACs don't eliminate 100% of jitter. Feeding them a signal with less jitter helps DACs reduce jitter more than they could on their own. The very reputable hi-fi company Antipodes used to have a lengthy, very clearly written primer on the subject posted on their site. A cursory check indicates it's no longer there. But they do have a discussion forum that might cover the topic. 

Those of us who have actually done the experiment, switching from either a computer or low quality streamer to a high quality streamer, have heard an unmistakable improvement in sound quality. Even if we don't have the technical know-how to explain it. 

Bingo!

For the rest ... ignorance is bliss

 

Which clock is being used, the one in the DAC or the streamer? And the quality matters. On USB input the DAC’s clock is used. On SPDIF or AES the streamer (or CD transport) clock is used. This alone can make a big difference in the sound between streamers. And subsequently how they are hooked up. So think about the consequence of this. A ‘lesser’ DAC might sound much better with a quality streamer/clock hooked up to it via SPDIF than the same DAC hooked up via USB to a laptop. Another way to look at it, if two streamers are compared against each other using the same DAC hooked up via USB, any differences between the two streamers will be less apparent because they are both using the same clock in the DAC. See the link below as an example of one explanation on this… I’m not an expert on the why’s and where’s but have heard the differences in my system.

Clocking matters

Being a dealer, we are fortunate to be able to test many servers, and DACs.  It is a very good, basic question that always comes up with customers. The short answer is everything matters, but the DAC is more important to sound quality than the server/streamer.  That being said, we have tested, for example, Aurender’s, Innuos’ and other music servers, and found that their least expensive model does not compare to their mid-level model.

However, what we have found is for the best sound quality available, you should eliminate the USB cable and it’s inherent problems by connecting ethernet directly to your DAC for streaming. Being a Bricasti dealer, we know that from their M3 up you can buy their network, player card, and connect your ethernet directly to the DAC. When comparing XYZ‘s $6.5k music server versus the Bricasti M1 Series II DAC with their network player card, the sound was pure with better detail, and resolution and better bass response, as well as a better soundstage. 

for the best sound quality available, you should eliminate the USB cable and it’s inherent problems by connecting ethernet directly to your DAC for streaming

@eastendhifi 

Thats comforting as I have a DAC with built in streaming - was wondering if I should get an external streamer for sonic uptick.

@Kennyc That is interesting because the original question was about separate streamer/DAC’s.  Congratulations on having an integrated solution.

My prior research and experience led me to the same conclusion as Jimmy2615--the cable determines which clock (streamer or dac) is prioritized and therefore will influence the sound. USB sounded far superior during A/B testing SPDIF vs. USB. To no surprise, my DAC is greatly superior to my streamer. This is also the reason I've delayed upgrading my streamer as I'm afraid I may not see the benefit I'm hoping for.

The short answer is yes, the quality of the streamer can matter even if you’re using a high-quality outboard DAC. Here’s why:

1. Jitter: The timing of the digital signals can be affected by the quality of the streamer, causing slight deviations known as jitter. Although a high-quality DAC can often mitigate jitter to some extent, a poor-quality streamer may introduce enough jitter that even an excellent DAC can’t fully compensate.

2. Signal Integrity: Poor-quality streamers may not maintain the integrity of the digital signal as it’s transmitted to the DAC. While error-correction protocols can minimize the impact, they’re not perfect. In some cases, a compromised signal may lead to a less accurate analog conversion.

3. Compatibility: High-quality streamers often offer better compatibility with various formats and resolutions. If you’re playing high-res audio files, the streamer needs to support these to take full advantage of the DAC’s capabilities.

4. Noise: Digital streamers, like all electronic devices, can generate electrical noise. Poorly designed streamers may not isolate this noise well, leading to a contaminated digital signal which can adversely affect sound quality when converted to analog by the DAC.

5. Connectivity: A better streamer usually offers more and better connectivity options, including higher-quality digital outputs (e.g., AES/EBU, coaxial, optical, etc.), which can impact the audio quality by maintaining a more stable and higher-integrity signal path to the DAC.

6. Ease of Use and Features: While not directly related to audio quality, the user interface and features like streaming service integration, multi-room capabilities, and software updates are generally better in high-quality streamers.

7. Clocking: Some high-end streamers have extremely precise clocks to synchronize data transmission more accurately. This can lead to better performance in the digital-to-analog conversion process.

So while a high-quality DAC is critical for getting the best sound, a poor-quality streamer can be a bottleneck in your system, limiting the performance of even an excellent DAC.

This is a puzzling post, can some clever engineering matter in a digital transport device? One area you can be pretty confident is the digital domain. Rarely could anyone say the expense or engineering of a streamer matters in video. Which seems harder since you have both video and audio. But our perception isn’t about bitrate, it’s contrast, volume and other things artists deliberately manipulate.  Possibly there’s a difference in video streamers but the beauty of a digital signal is noise imperviousness. It sends information in such a way that you encounter little or no error. You likely can’t measure any either because of outrageously clever protocols that basically make every system work. Like the internet. You don’t get misspelled words or grainy pictures.  Except somehow for audio since it’s ‘special’. Hate to say but all these boxes don’t make sound, they just process it. In a blind test our ears are too sensitive to all the myriad of other ssues of reproducing sound, including mainly mixing choices by the artists, our room and speaker placement, etc. My take? Get the cheapest possible streamer. DAC may make a little difference but most problems come with amplification and energizing your space realistically with the recording type and choices of the music you listen to. Personally I couldn’t be happier and have always used Apple TV. Without the TV part.  It has the best and easiest to use interface, reachable by any Apple device including my watch. You just have to split HDMI audio out into toslink, but that’s a 20 dollar box.  Also for 30 dollars a year you can store all your music in Itunes. So it plays anything from its catalog or yours, wherever on any device. But this hobby isn’t about saving money but I think they have the best solution at about 250 all in. 

Do previous comments apply to systems with AES connection between DAC and streamer?

A cheap streamer delivers the identical string of bits to a DAC as an expensive streamer. Bits are bits. The only way they could sound different is if one of the streamers is changing bits, or one of the streamers is generating noise into an amplifier. Power and grounding is so well understood that even cheap streamers emit very low noise. A Checksum guarantees the bits I receive from QoBuz are identical to what was transmitted to my streamer and to my DAC. I use a Raspberry Pi loaded with Moode. mConnect is my user interface via iPad or iPhone. Total cost $70. DAC = RME ADI-2 DAC FS, Amp = Luxman 509X, Speakers = Magnepan.