If you read my previous post, I address why a bit perfect file can sound different. You are correct that bits are bits, but not correct that noise is not a factor. Sound quality can vary among streamers. It is measurable. It is audible.
Many people here post what they believe (me included). But believing and experiencing are different things. It is true that it’s possible some of us have been deluded by placebo. But, I think there’s more than enough measured and anecdotal evidence to suggest there’s benefit to investing in a better streamer. That’s what i believe. But also what i experienced directly - when I came in as a skeptic.
Do the work. Make an honest effort to do an honest comparison. Then tell us what you heard. I’ll regard that feedback as far more valuable than telling us what can’t be. Do the work. Then post.
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+1 "If you make listening and observation your occupation you will gain much more than you can by talk [posting]. " - Robert Baden-Powell
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I have a fantastic DAC (Denafrips Terminator II) I upgraded from a nice Bluesound Node to am Innuos Zen Mk3 Streamer. I'm not as knowledgeable or technically gifted in terms of describing what I am hearing as a lot of the vets on this forum by a log shot, but I am hear to tell you..... NIGHT and DAY. The SQ improvement was stunning. Every Component in the chain matters, some may matter more than others, but the higher quality streamer was a game changer for my system.
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If you are truly doing blind listening and observation tests, then I believe you heard differences between good streamers. Whether I would hear differences, I don’t know. But if you just spent $$ for new equipment, put on some music and claim it sounds so much better, then I have a little trouble accepting what you tell me. I don’t have the luxury to do blind tests on different equipment, so maybe you are right and there is a difference between streamers. But all the hype I hear about better streamers addressing issues with jitter and timing which can affect sound quality, all this hype I believe is BS. Here is a good explanation of jitter and timing by someone I happen to respect but many in here do not. Listen to him and if you don’t like it, that’s cool, move on.
https://youtu.be/QPcX_8OrH7g
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I think noise is a factor in the conversation. I had a U1 mini. It sounded good. Added an Sbooster external power supply. There was a definite improvement. Just replaced mu U1 mini with a U2. The U2 was another significant improvement. Better sound stage, more micro detail and a more natural presentation.
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But all the hype I hear about better streamers addressing issues with jitter and timing which can affect sound quality, all this hype I believe is BS.
@daleberlin Well you’re free to “believe” whatever you want. But when you have the vast majority of people here who have upgraded to better streamers and have experienced very obvious positive improvements, well, you’re kinda swimming against the stream here. Do you really think all those folks are fooling themselves into thinking they’re hearing something better, because if you do I think you’re the one fooling yourself. And it’s not just about jitter and timing — better parts quality, power supplies, and significantly lower noise levels are all important aspects of why more expensive streamers sound better, and significantly so. Ignore the wisdom of the members on this site at your own peril. I will say burying your head in the sand is certainly an easier way to go, or maybe try a better streamer yourself and see what you hear rather than just what you “believe” to be true.
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@david_ten -- is the salmon delta/sigma, R2R, or NOS?
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So CLEARLY misguided says the man who so CLEARLY never listened to a quality streamer. More false, naïve and misguided words have ever been spoken. I speak these words from a position of authority bc I have a great, state of the art in the Mola Mola Tambaqui. It connects as a network streamer to Roon and sounds very good. But it doesn’t sound NEARLY as good as when fed by my Sonore Rendu SE via USB OR via AES by my new Antipodes K22 player.
Perhaps your intention as to create acrimony and division? That’s all you’ll get from me.
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Do you really think all those folks are fooling themselves into thinking they’re hearing something better
@soix well actually yes, if they didn’t hear humming or cracking sounds with original streamer. Do you really think none of those folks were fooling themselves? Hey maybe you are correct, but based on evidence presented to me, most streamers have identical SQ. I need more than “He said, she said” to convince me otherwise.
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curious why you would think we would fool ourselves...though certainly, if you hear no difference, so be it - you save a lot of money...
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@desktopguy The analogy was about what's upstream of the DAC, irrespective of DAC type. In other words, not about the DAC.
I have been really happy with both R2R and Delta/Sigma DACs. Currently using Delta/Sigma.
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I have had 4 streamers and 3 of them are as it gets.
- Sonore microRendu
-Sonore OptcalRendu using fibre
- Lumin X1 using fibre and testing the streamer section only
- PlayBack Designs Streamer-IF (using SPDIF for now, once I get a PDB Dream DAC I will use the fibre output of the streamer)
None of these 4 streamers sound the same. The microRendu is way behind in terms of sound quality to the other 3. I believe the reason is analog noise traversing the streamer from the Ethernet and then through USB into the DAC.
The surprise for me was how good the Streamer-IF sounds. It is good as the Lumin X1 and the Sonore OpticalRendu. I think the reason is that there must be a fibre wire inside the Streamer-IF that both the Fibre and SPDIF outputs use.
Listen to a stream that uses Fibre and one that does not. It should be very easy to hear a difference, even on a good network.
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Your streamer will make a huge difference in SQ. Just upgraded my Auralic Aries G2 streamer (which is is a solid streamer) to the Antipodes K22 and WOW! Assuming you have a high quality DAC of course.
Antipodes K22 Music Servers/Streamer
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Totally untrue our Audioclub did a 5 hour demo showing judges from the modem-Router combo, an absolute good quality Linear Power Supply makes a nice improvement, like the excellent Linear Tube Audio LPS it’s superb build and sonics and comes with a great 12v DC cable ,most router combos are 12v just look on the bottom , and take around 4 amps this LPS goes up to 8 amps ,
fromthereyou need a good Ethernet hub theSW8 that I have is a great buy $599
telema LPS low noise regulators and a ocxo over controlled clock
both items needs a decent power cord thepangea Sig mk2 awg14 is perfect only $200 each , and forsure you need at bare minimum$200 or more -2 Ethernet cables Wireworld starlight a good starting point ,as well as their usb cable , then
your streamer will sound much better ,a node is cheap $$150 in parts including the packaging ,my point is to get digital to sound good you have to remove all these weak links ,a better fuse,and power cord like the Pangea a must and at least a decent line conditioner, a dedicated 20 amp line bettter still.
we removed one piece at a time and left the room each increase improved the lower noise floor imaging as well as sound staging ,
just like a good turntable you have to address Everything starting at the router
the pathetic $5;wall wart power supplies are pure noise ,and digital noise does travel home to home thsts why its essential to isolate this with a good LPS from the start. I am still working on upgrading cables , Jcat Reference make Excellent usb cables as well as Ethernet cables yes $1k+ each but well worth it ,
being an Audiophile it’s a constant to upgrade as $$ monies allow .
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Everything matters and effects SQ, including a higher quality streamer, of course.
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OP , I'm using Bluesound Node 22i for years as a streamer with an external DAC (it's DAC is not good) . It is a good streamer, the software is nice, easy to use and works reliable enough. Reading so much, in threads like this, on a "day and night" difference between the sound production of different streamers and also because I wanted to have a digital music library as well, just recently I bought a Melco N50 series music server. While the Node can work both, wireless and with Ethernet connections, Melco servers work only with Ethernet cable. Melco still needs burn in. I did a careful a/b comparison using ethernet connection of the Node and the N50. In general the myth about night and day differences is clearly an exaggeration. At the same time, despite the fact that I was pessimistic in finding any tangible differences in sound quality, there is some difference: the server gives a little more cleaner sound reproduction, with more open and wider soundstage. Just to say, my wife would not distinguish the two, but for me the difference is still essential: the Melco gives a nice finish that makes the sound closer to perfect, for me. At the same time, I think the better is your system, in general, the less you will note the differences, although this may sound contradictory for some guys.
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I am shopping for a streamer. Does anyone have any links to article or reviews that show the differences in steamer output that results in these night and day differences? Numerous of reviews measure distortion numbers for amps, DACs, and plots/curves for speakers. Like in the reviews for amps, DACs, and speakers, it would be great to see the output variations between these different streamers (digital or after the DAC). I have seen test results for streamers with a DAC, but not for only the streamer. For people like me who are shopping, it might help in the process. It is not always possible to have 3 or 4 at home to compare them.
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OP. I myself is new to streaming. I’m mostly and analog guy. Yes streamers do make a big difference when hooking up to an external dac. Rather than speculating and asking everyone here why not go and listen yourself and form your own conclusions? And Yes bits are bits and they “SHOULD” sound the same in an ideal situation but in reality the situation serving the data is never ideal hence there is a difference in sound.
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@niodari At the same time, I think the better is your system, in general, the less you will note the differences, although this may sound contradictory for some guys.
Yes this is contradictory to me. The more resolving the system the easier it is to hear the effects of different components. I easily appreciated the upgrade path from Macbook > Node (great entry level streamer) > internal Bridges in PS Audio Direct Stream , Auralic Vega and MM Tambaqui > Auralic Aries G2 > now my Grimm MU1. (feeding MM Tambaqui DAC).
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@fastfreight , yes your argument is of course clear. But curiously, based on my personal practice and observation, the better are your amplifier and speakers, the better they do their job and these differences somehow diminish.
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based on my personal practice and observation, the better are your amplifier and speakers, the better they do their job and these differences somehow diminish.
Or one can interpret your observation a little bit differently. In that, upgrading your speakers AND amps yield much better, impactful, unmistakably audible, results than upgrading your streamer alone. Interpretation which I fully agree.
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Yes. Look at this in this way. Take a 8 cylinder car and a four-cylinder one. When you run fast or go up to a hill you feel that your 8-cilibder car is less forced than the 4 cylinder one.
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Yes indeed. If you can afford a V8 car, and paying for gas for it, go for it! No question better than a four cylinder car. Going from that V4 to the V8 is unquestionnably the most noticable outcome. However, I am sure people with V8s try to squeeze as much as they can from them, thus all the mods, and souped up upgrades. And there is notthing wrong with it too, if you are a car guy (not me).
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Boy we must nothing better to do, comparing cars in an audio thread :) Okay, coming off the heels of the last F1 of the year on the weekend, I'll bite :)
In the mid 80's BMW had a 1.5 litre 4 cylinder formula one engine that produced over 1400 hp. More hp than any 12 cylinder engine Ferrari ever had.
But, but,... there is no turbo on the V12? Different rules!
And it is not about horsepower anyway, it is about torque! and what RPM the motor is at...
and the quality of the fuel being burned
Just going to scaffold on niodari's comment and point out cars are like audio, it is not about a particular specification, it is all about engineering and implementation.
To relate to this thread: car engines are like streamers, usually, the more you spend, the better performance/quality you get.
(I am agreeing with the previous 5 posts, in case it doesn't look that way :)
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You can look at this also in a different way. Consider a car engine as an amplifier and accessories, perhaps tires as a streamer. Most of us, in terms of cars, have a V6 or V8 or at least V4 turbo amplifiers (which as you know note can have a lot of power). As to cars, I like to drive fast but prefer V4 car with turbo to V6 car, which I also have but do not use it often. V8 feels somehow better but, for me, it is completely unjustified, and anti-ecological, so neither I am a V8 car guy. I associate a good V4 turbo car with a good class D amp (I have three of them), V6 with a big class AB amp, and V8 with a huge class A amp that is too heavy, consumes too much of energy and gets too hot (a typical Pass Lab amp). I do have one, but it is a 5 watts tube SET, it is not huge and it consumes not that much of energy (a very compact v8 car which consumes less gas than some V6 cars).
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I like to drive fast but prefer V4 car with turbo to V6 car, which I also have but do not use it often. V8 feels somehow better but, for me, it is completely unjustified, and anti-ecological
.... or you can drive a performance electric car, and get the best of both worlds. Amazing (horse)power, and instant / powerfull torque (and not anti-ecological)
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I somehow missed the electric cars, a good point. They are closer to class D amplifiers. Perhaps, future Class X amplifiers will be conceptually closer to the electric cars? And yes, if i buy another car, it can be a performance electric car. For the moment, I see one major obstacle, the number of miles that one can run with a single charge of the battery.
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For the moment, I see one major obstacle, the number of miles that one can run with a single charge of the battery.
You can install a charger at home and it's like having your own private gas station in your house. Full "tank of gas" every morning. Unless your daily commute is hundreds of miles obviously. Better yet, free charging at work (car charges itself while you are working). Or plenty of fast DC chargers all over the place (where I live). Not an issue
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The quality of "every single" unit matters.
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Sure, in a luxury 8 cinder sport car even the ashtray "matters"...
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I am getting more from this thread than most. Thank you all!
I'm getting the itch and ran an experiment.
I have a Bluesound Node, current model using usb out to a highly modified MHDT Orchid dac.
I have Dali Epicon 8 speakers, Luxman 509x integrated and a Marantz CD I use as a transport.
Transparent and Shunyata cabling.
I can hear virtually no difference between the Bluesound streaming Qobuz and the cd.
Does this mean that the dac will probably not keep up with a better streamer and perhaps I should start with a new dac?
Thanks.
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If you are using the same DAC for both, your CD transport and the streamer, then you perhaps may check your CD transport and also other your audio components, the amplifier on speakers. In general do not expect a huge difference in sound quality. If you have a good system both sources will give you dicent sound quality and often it is a matter of taste which source you like more.
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As an example, my son liked more the sound from Node 2i over a much more expensive Melco server. And yes, the Node a nice steamer it is compact, easy to use and its software is quite flexible.
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Modern DACs designed and built with the intention to be accurate will be audibly transparent. You’d have to really screw up a streamer to get one to audibly color the sound.
No one is going to settle your argument. It will just be amplified here.
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That hypothesis is wrong. I use a $50K DAC, and upgrading the streamer made just as big of a difference as upgrading the DAC.
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This is a blend of trolling and trawling.
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