Help settle a streaming argument!

This is a blend of trolling and trawling. 

That hypothesis is wrong. I use a $50K DAC, and upgrading the streamer made just as big of a difference as upgrading the DAC.

Modern DACs designed and built with the intention to be accurate will be audibly transparent. You’d have to really screw up a streamer to get one to audibly color the sound. 
 

No one is going to settle your argument. It will just be amplified here. 

As an example, my son liked more the sound from Node 2i over a much more expensive Melco server. And yes, the Node a nice steamer it is compact, easy to use and its software is quite flexible.

If you are using the same DAC for both, your CD transport and the streamer, then you perhaps may check your CD transport and also other your audio  components, the amplifier on speakers. In general do not expect a huge difference in sound quality.  If you have a good system both sources will give you dicent sound quality and often it is a matter of taste which source you like more. 

I am getting more from this thread than most.  Thank you all!

I'm getting the itch and ran an experiment.

I have a Bluesound Node, current model using usb out to a highly modified MHDT Orchid dac.

I have Dali Epicon 8 speakers, Luxman 509x integrated and a Marantz CD I use as a transport.

Transparent and Shunyata cabling.

I can hear virtually no difference between the Bluesound streaming Qobuz and the cd.

Does this mean that the dac will probably not keep up with a better streamer and perhaps I should start with a new dac?

Thanks.

Sure, in a luxury 8 cinder  sport car even the ashtray "matters"...

The quality of "every single" unit matters.

For the moment, I see one major obstacle, the number of miles that one can run with a single charge of the battery. 

You can install a charger at home and it's like having your own private gas station in your house. Full "tank of gas" every morning. Unless your daily commute is hundreds of miles obviously. Better yet, free charging at work (car charges itself while you are working). Or plenty of fast DC chargers all over the place (where I live). Not an issue

I somehow missed the electric cars, a good point. They are closer to  class D amplifiers.  Perhaps, future Class X amplifiers will be conceptually closer to the electric cars? And yes, if i buy another car, it can be a performance electric car.  For the moment, I see one major obstacle, the number of miles that one can run with a single charge of the battery. 

I like to drive fast but prefer V4 car with turbo to V6 car, which I also have but do not use it often. V8 feels somehow better but, for me, it is completely unjustified, and anti-ecological

.... or you can drive a performance electric car, and get the best of both worlds. Amazing (horse)power, and instant / powerfull torque (and not anti-ecological)

 

You can look at this also in a different way. Consider a car engine as an amplifier and accessories, perhaps tires as a streamer. Most of us, in terms of cars,  have a V6 or V8 or at least V4 turbo amplifiers (which as you know note can have a lot of power). As to cars, I like to drive fast but prefer V4 car with turbo to V6 car, which I also have but do not use it often. V8 feels somehow better but, for me, it is completely unjustified, and anti-ecological, so neither I am a V8 car guy. I associate  a good V4 turbo car with a good class D amp (I have three of them), V6 with a big class AB amp, and V8 with a huge class A amp that is too heavy, consumes too much of energy and gets too hot (a typical Pass Lab amp). I do have one, but it is a 5 watts tube SET,  it is not huge and it consumes not that much of energy (a very compact v8 car which consumes less gas than some V6 cars). 

Boy we must nothing better to do, comparing cars in an audio thread :) Okay, coming off the heels of the last F1 of the year on the weekend, I'll bite :)

In the mid 80's BMW had a 1.5 litre 4 cylinder formula one engine that produced over 1400 hp. More hp than any 12 cylinder engine Ferrari ever had. 

But, but,... there is no turbo on the V12? Different rules!

And it is not about horsepower anyway, it is about torque! and what RPM the motor is at...

and the quality of the fuel being burned

Just going to scaffold on niodari's comment and point out cars are like audio, it is not about a particular specification, it is all about engineering and implementation.

To relate to this thread: car engines are like streamers, usually, the more you spend, the better performance/quality you get. 

(I am agreeing with the previous 5 posts, in case it doesn't look that way :)

 

Yes indeed. If you can afford a V8 car, and paying for gas for it, go for it! No question better than a four cylinder car. Going from that V4 to the V8 is unquestionnably the most noticable outcome. However, I am sure people with V8s try to squeeze as much as they can from them, thus all the mods, and souped up upgrades. And there is notthing wrong with it too, if you are a car guy (not me).

Yes. Look at this in this way. Take a 8 cylinder car and a four-cylinder one. When you run fast or go up to a hill you feel that your 8-cilibder car is less forced than the 4 cylinder one. 

based on my personal practice and  observation, the better are your amplifier and speakers, the better they do their job and these differences somehow diminish. 

Or one can interpret your observation a little bit differently. In that, upgrading your speakers AND amps yield much better, impactful, unmistakably audible, results than upgrading your streamer alone. Interpretation which I fully agree. 

@fastfreight , yes your argument is of course clear. But curiously, based on my personal practice and  observation, the better are your amplifier and speakers, the better they do their job and these differences somehow diminish. 

@niodari At the same time, I think the better is your system, in general, the less you will note the differences, although this may sound contradictory for some guys.

 

Yes this is contradictory to me.  The more resolving the system the easier it is to hear the effects of different components. I easily appreciated the upgrade path from Macbook > Node (great entry level streamer) > internal Bridges in PS Audio Direct Stream , Auralic Vega and MM Tambaqui > Auralic Aries G2 > now my Grimm MU1. (feeding MM Tambaqui DAC).

 

 

OP. I myself is new to streaming. I’m mostly and analog guy. Yes streamers do make a big difference when hooking up to an external dac. Rather than speculating and asking everyone here why not go and listen yourself and form your own conclusions? And Yes bits are bits and they “SHOULD” sound the same in an ideal situation but in reality the situation serving the data is never ideal hence there is a difference in sound. 

I am shopping for a streamer. Does anyone have any links to article or reviews that show the differences in steamer output that results in these night and day differences? Numerous of reviews measure distortion numbers for amps, DACs, and plots/curves for speakers. Like in the reviews for amps, DACs, and speakers, it would be great to see the output variations between these different streamers (digital or after the DAC). I have seen test results for streamers with a DAC, but not for only the streamer. For people like me who are shopping, it might help in the process. It is not always possible to have 3 or 4 at home to compare them.

OP ,  I'm using Bluesound Node 22i for years as a streamer with an external DAC  (it's DAC is not good) . It is a good streamer, the software is nice, easy to use and works  reliable enough. Reading so much, in threads like this, on a "day and night" difference between the sound production of different streamers and also because I wanted to have a digital music library as well, just recently I bought a Melco N50 series music server. While the Node can work both, wireless and with Ethernet connections, Melco servers work only with Ethernet cable. Melco still needs burn in. I did a  careful a/b comparison using  ethernet connection of the Node and the N50. In general the myth about night and day differences is clearly an exaggeration. At the same time, despite the fact that I was pessimistic in finding any tangible differences in sound quality, there is some difference: the server gives a little more cleaner sound reproduction, with more open and wider soundstage. Just to say, my wife would not distinguish the two, but for me the difference is still  essential: the Melco gives a nice finish that makes the sound closer to perfect, for me. At the same time, I think the better is your system, in general, the less you will note the differences, although this may sound contradictory for some guys. 

Everything matters and effects SQ, including a higher quality streamer, of course.

Totally untrue our Audioclub did a 5 hour demo showing judges from the modem-Router combo, an absolute good quality Linear Power Supply makes a nice improvement, like the excellent Linear Tube Audio LPS it’s superb build and sonics and comes with a great 12v DC cable ,most router combos are 12v just look on the bottom , and take around 4 amps this LPS goes up to 8 amps ,

fromthereyou need a good Ethernet hub theSW8  that I have is a great buy $599

telema LPS  low noise regulators and a ocxo over controlled clock

both items needs a decent power cord thepangea Sig mk2 awg14 is perfect only $200 each , and forsure you need at bare minimum$200 or more -2 Ethernet cables Wireworld starlight a good starting point ,as well as their usb cable ,  then 

your streamer will sound much better ,a node is cheap $$150 in parts including the packaging ,my point is to get digital to sound good you have to remove all these weak links ,a better fuse,and power cord like  the Pangea a must and at least a decent line conditioner, a dedicated 20 amp line bettter still.

we removed one piece at a time and left the room each increase improved the lower noise floor imaging as well as sound staging ,

just like a good turntable you have to address Everything starting at the router 

the pathetic $5;wall wart power supplies are pure noise ,and digital noise does travel home to home thsts why its essential to isolate this with a good LPS from the start. I am still working on upgrading cables , Jcat Reference make Excellent usb cables as well as Ethernet cables yes $1k+ each but well worth it , 

being an Audiophile it’s a constant to upgrade as $$ monies  allow .

Your streamer will make a huge difference in SQ. Just upgraded my Auralic Aries G2 streamer (which is is a solid streamer) to the Antipodes K22 and WOW! Assuming you have a high quality DAC of course.

Antipodes K22 Music Servers/Streamer

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQj_Y8h9npA&t=566s

https://youtu.be/B-StTplQZys?si=boT2o4sP4aHhrJX5

lot of useful info here, stick with it, listen all the way through... makes alot of this stuff clear, and understandable...

 

 

 

I have had 4 streamers and 3 of them are as it gets.

- Sonore microRendu

-Sonore OptcalRendu using fibre

- Lumin X1 using fibre and testing the streamer section only

- PlayBack Designs Streamer-IF (using SPDIF for now, once I get a PDB Dream DAC I will use the fibre output of the streamer)

None of these 4 streamers sound the same. The microRendu is way behind in terms of sound quality to the other 3. I believe the reason is analog noise traversing the streamer from the Ethernet and then through USB into the DAC.

The surprise for me was how good the Streamer-IF sounds. It is good as the Lumin X1 and the Sonore OpticalRendu. I think the reason is that there must be a fibre wire inside the Streamer-IF that both the Fibre and SPDIF outputs use.

Listen to a stream that uses Fibre and one that does not. It should be very easy to hear a difference, even on a good network.

 

 

@desktopguy  The analogy was about what's upstream of the DAC, irrespective of DAC type. In other words, not about the DAC.

I have been really happy with both R2R and Delta/Sigma DACs. Currently using Delta/Sigma.

curious why you would think we would fool ourselves...though certainly, if you hear no difference, so be it - you save a lot of money...

Do you really think all those folks are fooling themselves into thinking they’re hearing something better

@soix well actually yes, if they didn’t hear humming or cracking sounds with original streamer. Do you really think none of those folks were fooling themselves?  Hey maybe you are correct, but based on evidence presented to me, most streamers have identical SQ. I need more than “He said, she said” to convince me otherwise.

So CLEARLY misguided says the man who so CLEARLY never listened to a quality streamer. More false,  naïve and misguided words  have ever  been spoken. I speak these words from a position of authority bc I have a great, state of the art in the Mola Mola Tambaqui. It connects as a network streamer to Roon and  sounds very good. But it doesn’t sound NEARLY as good  as when fed by my Sonore Rendu SE via USB OR via AES by my new Antipodes K22 player. 
 

Perhaps your  intention as to create acrimony and division? That’s all you’ll get from me. 

@david_ten -- is the salmon delta/sigma, R2R, or NOS?

But all the hype I hear about better streamers addressing issues with jitter and timing which can affect sound quality, all this hype I believe is BS.

@daleberlin Well you’re free to “believe” whatever you want.  But when you have the vast majority of people here who have upgraded to better streamers and have experienced very obvious positive improvements, well, you’re kinda swimming against the stream here.  Do you really think all those folks are fooling themselves into thinking they’re hearing something better, because if you do I think you’re the one fooling yourself.  And it’s not just about jitter and timing — better parts quality, power supplies, and significantly lower noise levels are all important aspects of why more expensive streamers sound better, and significantly so.  Ignore the wisdom of the members on this site at your own peril.  I will say burying your head in the sand is certainly an easier way to go, or maybe try a better streamer yourself and see what you hear rather than just what you “believe” to be true. 

I think noise is a factor in the conversation.  I had a U1 mini.  It sounded good.  Added an Sbooster external power supply.  There was a definite improvement.  Just replaced mu U1 mini with a U2.  The U2 was another significant improvement.  Better sound stage, more micro detail and a more natural presentation.  

If you are truly doing blind listening and observation tests, then I believe you heard differences between good streamers. Whether I would hear differences, I don’t know. But if you just spent $$ for new equipment, put on some music and claim it sounds so much better, then I have a little trouble accepting what you tell me. I don’t have the luxury to do blind tests on different equipment, so maybe you are right and there is a difference between streamers. But all the hype I hear about better streamers addressing issues with jitter and timing which can affect sound quality, all this hype I believe is BS. Here is a good explanation of jitter and timing by someone I happen to respect but many in here do not. Listen to him and if you don’t like it, that’s cool, move on.

 

https://youtu.be/QPcX_8OrH7g

 

I have a fantastic DAC (Denafrips Terminator II) I upgraded from a nice Bluesound Node to am Innuos Zen Mk3 Streamer. I'm not as knowledgeable or technically gifted in terms of describing what I am hearing as a lot of the vets on this forum by a log shot, but I am hear to tell you..... NIGHT and DAY. The SQ improvement was stunning. Every Component in the chain matters, some may matter more than others, but the higher quality streamer was a game changer for my system. 

+1  "If you make listening and observation your occupation you will gain much more than you can by talk [posting]. " - Robert Baden-Powell

If you read my previous post, I address why a bit perfect file can sound different. You are correct that bits are bits, but not correct that noise is not a factor. Sound quality can vary among streamers. It is measurable.  It is audible.

Many people here post what they believe (me included). But believing and experiencing are different things. It is true that it’s possible some of us have been deluded by placebo. But, I think there’s more than enough measured and anecdotal evidence to suggest there’s benefit to investing in a better streamer. That’s what i believe. But also what i experienced directly - when I came in as a skeptic.

Do the work. Make an honest effort to do an honest comparison. Then tell us what you heard. I’ll regard that feedback as far more valuable than telling us what can’t be. Do the work. Then post.

A cheap streamer delivers the identical string of bits to a DAC as an expensive streamer. Bits are bits. The only way they could sound different is if one of the streamers is changing bits, or one of the streamers is generating noise into an amplifier. Power and grounding is so well understood that even cheap streamers emit very low noise. A Checksum guarantees the bits I receive from QoBuz are identical to what was transmitted to my streamer and to my DAC. I use a Raspberry Pi loaded with Moode. mConnect is my user interface via iPad or iPhone. Total cost $70. DAC = RME ADI-2 DAC FS, Amp = Luxman 509X, Speakers = Magnepan.

Do previous comments apply to systems with AES connection between DAC and streamer?

This is a puzzling post, can some clever engineering matter in a digital transport device? One area you can be pretty confident is the digital domain. Rarely could anyone say the expense or engineering of a streamer matters in video. Which seems harder since you have both video and audio. But our perception isn’t about bitrate, it’s contrast, volume and other things artists deliberately manipulate.  Possibly there’s a difference in video streamers but the beauty of a digital signal is noise imperviousness. It sends information in such a way that you encounter little or no error. You likely can’t measure any either because of outrageously clever protocols that basically make every system work. Like the internet. You don’t get misspelled words or grainy pictures.  Except somehow for audio since it’s ‘special’. Hate to say but all these boxes don’t make sound, they just process it. In a blind test our ears are too sensitive to all the myriad of other ssues of reproducing sound, including mainly mixing choices by the artists, our room and speaker placement, etc. My take? Get the cheapest possible streamer. DAC may make a little difference but most problems come with amplification and energizing your space realistically with the recording type and choices of the music you listen to. Personally I couldn’t be happier and have always used Apple TV. Without the TV part.  It has the best and easiest to use interface, reachable by any Apple device including my watch. You just have to split HDMI audio out into toslink, but that’s a 20 dollar box.  Also for 30 dollars a year you can store all your music in Itunes. So it plays anything from its catalog or yours, wherever on any device. But this hobby isn’t about saving money but I think they have the best solution at about 250 all in. 

The short answer is yes, the quality of the streamer can matter even if you’re using a high-quality outboard DAC. Here’s why:

1. Jitter: The timing of the digital signals can be affected by the quality of the streamer, causing slight deviations known as jitter. Although a high-quality DAC can often mitigate jitter to some extent, a poor-quality streamer may introduce enough jitter that even an excellent DAC can’t fully compensate.

2. Signal Integrity: Poor-quality streamers may not maintain the integrity of the digital signal as it’s transmitted to the DAC. While error-correction protocols can minimize the impact, they’re not perfect. In some cases, a compromised signal may lead to a less accurate analog conversion.

3. Compatibility: High-quality streamers often offer better compatibility with various formats and resolutions. If you’re playing high-res audio files, the streamer needs to support these to take full advantage of the DAC’s capabilities.

4. Noise: Digital streamers, like all electronic devices, can generate electrical noise. Poorly designed streamers may not isolate this noise well, leading to a contaminated digital signal which can adversely affect sound quality when converted to analog by the DAC.

5. Connectivity: A better streamer usually offers more and better connectivity options, including higher-quality digital outputs (e.g., AES/EBU, coaxial, optical, etc.), which can impact the audio quality by maintaining a more stable and higher-integrity signal path to the DAC.

6. Ease of Use and Features: While not directly related to audio quality, the user interface and features like streaming service integration, multi-room capabilities, and software updates are generally better in high-quality streamers.

7. Clocking: Some high-end streamers have extremely precise clocks to synchronize data transmission more accurately. This can lead to better performance in the digital-to-analog conversion process.

So while a high-quality DAC is critical for getting the best sound, a poor-quality streamer can be a bottleneck in your system, limiting the performance of even an excellent DAC.

My prior research and experience led me to the same conclusion as Jimmy2615--the cable determines which clock (streamer or dac) is prioritized and therefore will influence the sound. USB sounded far superior during A/B testing SPDIF vs. USB. To no surprise, my DAC is greatly superior to my streamer. This is also the reason I've delayed upgrading my streamer as I'm afraid I may not see the benefit I'm hoping for.

@Kennyc That is interesting because the original question was about separate streamer/DAC’s.  Congratulations on having an integrated solution.

for the best sound quality available, you should eliminate the USB cable and it’s inherent problems by connecting ethernet directly to your DAC for streaming

@eastendhifi 

Thats comforting as I have a DAC with built in streaming - was wondering if I should get an external streamer for sonic uptick.

Being a dealer, we are fortunate to be able to test many servers, and DACs.  It is a very good, basic question that always comes up with customers. The short answer is everything matters, but the DAC is more important to sound quality than the server/streamer.  That being said, we have tested, for example, Aurender’s, Innuos’ and other music servers, and found that their least expensive model does not compare to their mid-level model.

However, what we have found is for the best sound quality available, you should eliminate the USB cable and it’s inherent problems by connecting ethernet directly to your DAC for streaming. Being a Bricasti dealer, we know that from their M3 up you can buy their network, player card, and connect your ethernet directly to the DAC. When comparing XYZ‘s $6.5k music server versus the Bricasti M1 Series II DAC with their network player card, the sound was pure with better detail, and resolution and better bass response, as well as a better soundstage. 

Which clock is being used, the one in the DAC or the streamer? And the quality matters. On USB input the DAC’s clock is used. On SPDIF or AES the streamer (or CD transport) clock is used. This alone can make a big difference in the sound between streamers. And subsequently how they are hooked up. So think about the consequence of this. A ‘lesser’ DAC might sound much better with a quality streamer/clock hooked up to it via SPDIF than the same DAC hooked up via USB to a laptop. Another way to look at it, if two streamers are compared against each other using the same DAC hooked up via USB, any differences between the two streamers will be less apparent because they are both using the same clock in the DAC. See the link below as an example of one explanation on this… I’m not an expert on the why’s and where’s but have heard the differences in my system.

Clocking matters

Those of us who have actually done the experiment, switching from either a computer or low quality streamer to a high quality streamer, have heard an unmistakable improvement in sound quality. Even if we don't have the technical know-how to explain it. 

Bingo!

For the rest ... ignorance is bliss

 

Those of us who have actually done the experiment, switching from either a computer or low quality streamer to a high quality streamer, have heard an unmistakable improvement in sound quality. Even if we don't have the technical know-how to explain it. However, other, smarter people have said it boils down to jitter. Even the best DACs don't eliminate 100% of jitter. Feeding them a signal with less jitter helps DACs reduce jitter more than they could on their own. The very reputable hi-fi company Antipodes used to have a lengthy, very clearly written primer on the subject posted on their site. A cursory check indicates it's no longer there. But they do have a discussion forum that might cover the topic. 

@audioman58 

There are suckers born every minute. 

Not true a cheap streamer creates a lot of noise ,it has a cheap $10 wall wart powersupply .  Plus junk for parts ,rule of thumb 25% at most goes into the cost including packaging ,   R&D over head and markup. Meaning a $1k streamer less then $225 that’s complete , pure rubbish .

a good LPS powersupply like $750 linear tube audio ,is a great buy  I have one on my Motorola 8702 modem- router , and makes a solid difference in not only wifi forthe tv  but much lower noise ,going to my SW8 Hub witha ocxo oven controlled clock, Talema LPS and low noise regulators, for$600 a excellent buy ,and added a good Hifi tuning fuse ,and Pangea sig mk2 awg14 power cord , all make it even betterstill.