Have you moved away from full range to standmount speakers + subs?
I want to know if you have been on a journey moving from a large full range speaker to a smaller one paired wit subs, maybe even four subs.
Maybe you moved away from the big speakers because you had too much bass or you got a better soundstage from the smaller speakers. Let me know what motivated you and if you think it’s better now.
My motivation for wanting to try smaller speakers.
I have the Tekton DI and until a month ago I was using a LM845P SET amp to drive them.
It only sounded good on simple jazz and vocals but on complex music everything was falling apart.
I am not playing loud but I think it was the low 2 ohm load in the midrange that made the LM break down.
I bought a used PS Audio BHK250 and pre and it was like getting new speakers. Never ever had it occurred to me that speaker and amp matching could have such a profound effect.
So I am enjoying my speakers now and listen to music I have avoided like the plague and enjoying it (:
But all of this got me thinking, what if I paired my LM845P with an easy to drive speaker and paired it with some subs?
Then the LM845 could do what it's best at, playing glorious midrange and the subs could play the bass.
So that's my motivation for trying smaller speakers.
I am also hoping that maybe I could get better and more even bass with 2 or 4 subs. Maybe a better soundstage because the small speakers have a very small baffle.
Read wolf's earlier post. He raises a good point when he states that large speakers are nothing more than a collection of smaller ones in a larger box. For example take the same midrange driver, allow this driver the required cabinet space behind the driver and then place one is a small narrow box and the other in a larger box with a wider baffle. In the better design you will hear less of the cabinet and more of the driver itself. It can be no other way. Large cabinets are almost universally a detriment and this is especially true of large lossy thin walled cabinets. Generally speaking I believe that it is much easier to get a smaller speaker to image well than a larger one. I think that dougshroeder is dead wrong when he speaks in absolutes about such things. He often leaves out the necessary caveats of different designs. Give his post on this issue no more credence than you would any other member! |
My first experience with a "satellite/sub-woofer" system was about 50 years ago. It was the M&K (Miller & Kreisel?) system. I was blown away by it. And I had heard quite a few not quite full-range systems. As a kid it was difficult to get to audition big time systems in NYC, had to sort of piggy back on a "real" buyer. Even at that juncture I knew that the smaller system wasn't for me. I'm all about big and full range. At some point I will have to simplify things as a thousand pounds of audio will be unmanageable. Yeah right! When they pry my cold dead fingers from the remote! Just my $.02. Regards, barts |
You may want to audition some, "Servo Controlled" subwoofers if your going to tread this path. None are available on the cheap. But "IMHO"? They are well worth the extra cost involved. I have been using these since first finding them in the early 80's. "I have even modified (non-SC sub's) and built from scratch a few in my quest as an audiophile". So I do have a bit of experience with this subject matter. Why 'Servo Controlled"? Because everything else, "Regardless of cost". Simply pales in comparison! Their accuracy is quite addictive... |
I'm one of those that went the other way as well. I had B&W CDM1 with Velodyne servo sub purchased in mid 90's. Before the fero-fluid dried up in the monitors, the system had a lot of detail and the sub could play low double-bass notes. However, I was constantly messing with the sub setup: use the sub-crossover/don't use it, tweaking crossover point, adjusting volume. It kinda got old, and it took up a lot of space. It's not really true that you can just put a sub anywhere in the room. About 18 months ago, I replaced monitors with Totem Sky monitors - huge soundstage and unbelievable detail. Also, big bonus for me - they sounded best in my room only about 10-12" from the wall. A couple months ago, I replaced Totem and sub with Forte III's. They are also great in my room - I can have them about 9-12" away from the wall in my room for optimal bass and soundstage. No more messing the sub, don't miss it one bit. Nice full, big sound, plenty of detail. The Forte III's don't have the soundstage of the Totems but overall a much better user experience - set and forget. Wish I would have bough Klipsch Forte or Cornwall 25 years ago instead of messing monitors/subs. If a local dealer had any Totem towers to demo, I think I likely would have bought them to get the two-channel (no HT in man cave) bass I wanted with the great detail and soundstage, and ditch the sub. Having said that, being a bass guitarist and my brother having been a drummer, we both feel like what was lost in terms of the massive Totem soundstage was made up for in "realism" in the Klipsch - I hear the tone of the bass such that it sounds like my Fender and Rick bass guitars I have in the room, acoustic guitars sound just like my Gibson J200, the snare and cymbals sound like my brothers drum kit - unlike any other stereo speakers we've heard. For us, that's a special kind of fun. |
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So...I moved from Infinty Kappa 8.1s to Revel Performa 3 M105 with a Sunfire sub almost 10 years ago. The Infinity’s were a miserable load with a min 1.7ohm impedance and were hard to place. Not to mention, a bit bright with the EMIT-R Super tweeter. The Revels were a breath of fresh air. Not only were they less bright, they were easier to drive and place. In terms of actual floor space, the Revels were similar in footprint to the Kappas but they were visually far less dominant. They were not the be-all-end-all in terms of speaker but I didn’t need my room to revolve around the speakers to get a great image with enjoyable music and actual out-of-pocket costs adjusted for inflation were about the same between the Kappas and Revel Sunfire Combo. I run monitors at home with the exception of the very modestly sized Vivid Kaya 45s. I have gone on to design DIY stand mounts and now have stand-mounts in commercial production (Verdant Audio) due to a general struggle to find a stand-mount I like much better than the Revels about 4 years ago. The thing is, a properly designed stand-mount with a subwoofer can be more flexible than a floorstanding speaker and sound darn close to as good. There are a million caveats in terms of sub integration, etc... but at a root level it is true. There are many factors at play One is the aesthetics of a stand mount and the fact that they are often, less dominant in a space compared to a floor stander despite similar space requirements. My wife cares very much about this and is a driving factor in my speaker choice at home. Second, is that in many untreated rooms, the optimal placement for bass and treble reproduction is different. Treatments can and do fix this but often create aesthetic issues. Again, my wife has made it abundantly clear that acoustic treatments are not an option. So, it actually works in my favor to have bass separated. Regarding driving the amps, especially with lower wattage amps, poor bass response actually works in your favor as well. Often, peak volume output during a musical composition will be in the sub 60hz range. I run 45w tube amps with monitors that roll off at about 60hz at Audio Shows. I can drive them to 85-90dB all day. The key is looking at impedance and try and find a monitor that has a relatively high, minimum impedance. Mine have a min impedance of 7.3 ohms so they are a very easy load for my amps. In the end you want to pick a speaker that is right for you and your room. If you have limitations like I do in terms of aesthetics, stand mounts are a must. If you have a dedicated room where you can modify the look any way you like, it is large enough, then a floor stander might be best. |
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Horses for courses. Little monitors in big rooms will likely never sound 'right' with regard to image size. Big JBLs, Vintage Altec 604s, or Klipsch Horns will simply be overbearing in a bedroom. The dynamic linearity (ratio of change in input to change in output) of a small speaker will always be limited by the simple physics, but within their capabilities, it's a non-issue. If you listen at 6ft, you need 6dB (4X) less amp than listening at 12 ft. Inverse square law. Conversely, listening at 12 ft you also need a speaker with 6dB more headroom, which the small speaker simply can't deliver. The point is speakers are part of a system that includes the room and is guided by physical laws. Discussing a single component out of the context of the entire system is kinda pointless. Stand mounted speakers are generally intended for smaller spaces, large floor-standing speakers for larger spaces. Adding a subwoofer extends LF range and dynamics for the lower couple of octaves, but the capabilities of the stand mount above ~80Hz are pretty much the same. |
@douglas_schroeder -- ... Better big tower speakers make nearly all bookshelf/monitor speakers sound wanting, especially if they do not have a subwoofer(s) associated. One of the most telling characteristics of larger speakers is their ability to create a sense of scale that smaller speakers cannot. I very much agree on the above, but below quoted sentiment of yours strikes me as peculiarly "heated." I use the Legacy Audio i.V4 Ultra Amplifier following the review at Dagogo.com on all speakers, even the very efficient PureAudioProject Quintet15 Horn (reviewed). You bet I put 600wpc on that speaker because it seems like a completely different experience than some pissy 100W tube amp. I have zero interest in such pathetic amplification, which is also noisier than the Legacy amp. Want a downgraded experience? Feel free to go that route. Lower power tube lovers think they’re genius, but they are hearing insipid sound. Whatever. Sufficient amp power, not only as a measure of stated wattage, is very much dependent on overall speaker load and not least efficiency. Take +100dB all-horn speakers, 16 ohm load and relatively benign phase angle behavior even, and 15 watts + brute power supply SET's can make 'em sound beastly and beautiful indeed. Subs I'd pair with powerful high wattage SS amps in any case. I'm very much for the importance of headroom and amps being less affected by speaker load, also saying that on principle I don't disagree with you on the importance of having (more than) enough amp power at hand, but make your setup an active one and the relative importance of amp quality is somewhat lessened seeing directly into into each driver segment without the interference of a passive cross-over. Practically speaking this (i.e.: passive configuration) is, in my mind, the foremost reason for amps sounding different, and close to the only thing that partially validates ridiculously over-build amps costing upwards of smaller houses. My own fully actively driven speaker setup has more than 2,5kW in total (divided over 3 amps) with a speaker sensitivity ranging from 97dB to 111dB's, by no means anemic, but I've heard low SET-powered and passively configured all-horn setups sounding anything but malnourished as well, so I guess it goes to show. |
Then why the blanket condemnation of tube amplification and dismissal out of hand? I dont think you do yourself any favors when you post nonsense like that paragraph on these forums. As if you have heard all the "pissy" 100W tube amps made. As phisus points out, the speaker/amp interaction is key. Just because the PAP speaker you discuss is higher efficiency doesnt mean that it is a tube friendly speaker. |
@sandthemall I have Salk stand mounts and you’ve made me curious as to what their hiding, but some recent amp changes have pushed them higher. Second set of more sensitive speakers does pique my curiosity, though. Funny, Jesus was overly persecuted too!That one made me chuckle. I did not know there was a difference between being “persecuted” and being “overly persecuted.” |
audition__audio957 posts11-01-2021 8:17amUnless you just joined a few days ago, you need to understand that MC has been shilling SynergisticResearch, Raven, Townshend and Tekton for months if not over a year. These shills go far beyond the casual acknowledgements of a satisfied customer. audition_audio my company Synergistic Research in no way supports Miller Carbon. We do not supply payments, free product, or any compensation what-so-ever for his comments which are all his own. For you, a self-professed audio retailer, to both cast shade on a legitimate end user, and a legitimate manufacturer while you shill the brands you sell, is not only transparently self-serving, but also highly actionable given the fact you are in the same industry as I. Just understand, I am watching you, and I will deal with you legally if necessary. Yours in music,Ted Denney III Lead Designer and CEO, Synergistic Research Inc. |
Well said. It is odd when people say that a person like MC is a shill, nobody is paying him to say these things and actually, the definition of a shill is "A person paid to endorse a product favorably, while pretending to be impartial." He has never pretended to be impartial, in fact, the direct opposite. Instead of calling him a shill call him for what he is. He is just a very prideful person who is over the top arrogant. It's more of a personality trait than being a shill. |
shill/SHil/Learn to pronounceINFORMAL•NORTH AMERICANnoun All the best, Nonoise |
tomic601, I just looked at your reference system. let’s just say, you and I have a vastly different definition as to what constitutes ‘reference.’ Yours in music, Ted Denney III Lead Designer and CEO, Synergistic Research Inc. |
tomic601, I just looked at your reference system. let’s just say, you and I have a vastly different definition as to what constitutes ‘reference.’ Alright! Now I know who not to do business with in the future. You and MC deserve each other obviously. |
“For you, a self-professed audio retailer, to both cast shade on a legitimate end user, and a legitimate manufacturer while you shill the brands you sell, is not only transparently self-serving, but also highly actionable given the fact you are in the same industry as I. Just understand, I am watching you, and I will deal with you legally if necessary. “ YAWN ……. Unless of course you are mulling upon Filing for Legal Guardianship in order to provide moral guidance and a good home to the delinquent scamp ? |
Ted - which of the three systems did you find wanting ? https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/3803#&gid=1&pid=1 |
I will never forget sitting unobtrusively in the Synergistic room at RMAF almost ten years ago after a couple attendees told Ted they did not hear what he suggested they hear. When they left his best curse words came out to describe them to another guy he knew in the back. I was stunned. I literally have never forgotten his obscenities. |
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I have a variety of speakers, from floor standing to standmounts. I recently got rid of my subs/crossover/DSP unit. Ultimately I didn't find it added much to my speakers, and I found I preferred the tone and palpability of my speakers without the subs. Selling the subs was a load off my shoulders. Very glad to be rid of all that extra gear, the subs taking up space, the additional AC cabling, other cables, other boxes etc. I still prefer a good floor standing speaker to any sat/sub I've personally heard. That certainly isn't an objective take on subwoofers. I know tons of people love what they bring to a system, and there are technical advantages to integrating subwoofers if you can eek them out in your set up. They just didn't work out for me. |
With the thousands of demonstrations I’ve given over the years, I never suggest anyone hear anything. I never lead the demonstration, I do AB comparisons and people make up their own minds. What we have here are a few anonymous members attacking actual audiophiles who hear differences in power cords, fuses and cables, basically everything my company and other companies manufacture, while attacking me personally and making unsubstantiated allegations both against myself, and fellow AudiogoN members. It is amusing after I call out an actual shill for attacking an end-user that the bullies come in to his or her defense, keyboard fingers flying, while saying very little, as is usual for this repetitive lot. To my friends, I look forward to seeing you at the next tradeshow. Yours in music, Ted Denney III Lead Designer and CEO Synergistic Research Inc. |
Depending on your budget and to make easy setup the svs3000 and Svs micro are excellent subs and have a great app to fully adjust your subs and even program sayfrom audio to home theatre,settings , myself am stepping it up in class between a Marten speaker ,or the excellent MBL Omni directional speakers depending on budget ,I have to save I just don’t have an extra$20 k+ in my back pocket. Being married the Mrs had to make over the kitchen ,now a 2 level addition beforeXmas . Fellow Audiophiles i was counting on finishing my other upgrades ,I did upgrade the rest of my system but now I-Have to wait until next year on my speakers , being married you must learn patience. , I am still learning after 20 years .lol. |
Ted I have owned your active shielded cables which was a A medusa having 16 outlets Duo power conditioners ,the Mrs was not happy, I Had to change that , the fuses ,have not tried the purple yet ,I had just bought the Orange fuses 5 months ago ,not much a market for used fuses, lucky my Bricasti - dac-streamer has a breaker ,I need fuses just for my Coda integrated .Ted any trade in for a break in pricing to buy the New Purple fuses ? |
ted_denny, my ONLY question is WHY you haven’t taken action already. It’s one thing to have an opinion, it’s something completely different to actively and willfully participate in a smear campaign in an ONGOING basis. I’ve read post on these forums that actively protest and encourage a company with a money back guarantee to be BANNED because they sell a product, that the person has not tried. Then "REPEAT" the same thing over many different threads.. PAGES of responses were erased, thread after thread was erased. WHY? IF the thread looses steam it looses steam... I personally wouldn’t put up with it.. ME the old weird mechanic, that normally let’s thing go and usually support everyone’s right to a view.. IF you haven’t tried it, move on.. If you have post your "STUFF" and move on. Tell everyone how you sent the fuse back after their return date or after it’s blown and you STILL got your money back or a NEW fuse sent out expedited.. Oh do tell the horror stories, I’VE yet to hear ONE SINGLE STORY.. Regards |
Wow, this thread seems to be heading down the tracks on the crazy train! I've had some large efficient floor standing speakers (and used them with 4 subs), but they were just too much for my space and I have since moved mainly to monitors - Harbeth Super HL5 Plus, P3ESR, Stirling LS3/5, and Kef Ref 1s. It has a lot more to do with the type of presentation / sound I prefer than the size of the speaker or what's amplifying them. Which isn't to say those things don't come into play. I recently put some different amps in my system and was pleasantly surprised by the difference they made. I recently picked up a pair of Thiel CS 2.3 floor standing speakers and have been really enjoying those. Their smaller size and design works really well in my room. The best system I've heard so far had speakers 8 feet tall. Part of the fun of this hobby is trying different things and keeping an open mind and not deciding it has to be this vs. that. In regards to the derailment of the thread, all I can say is that when a manufacturer or dealer comes into a thread and presents facts about a situation they've been questioned about or educational information and deals with others in a respectful and professional manner, my respect for them grows. If they show up denigrating members and putting down their systems and threating legal action, well... I'll steer clear and spend my earnings elsewhere. |
Match the speakers to the size of the room. What’s the size of the room? I’m not sure what qualifies as a "full range" speaker. Perhaps one that goes down to 20 - 25 Hz ± 3dB? I’ve never owned large speakers with drivers more than 10" in my life. I’ve owned some Sonus Faber floorstanders but I’m more of a standmount guy. All my current speakers are standmounts, going down to 38 and 40 Hz and I love them for what they do. I don’t like to use subs with speakers although I own a rather high quality sub. To me, a speaker that is able to go down to 40 Hz ± 3dB on paper is the minimum requirement in providing adequate bass satisfaction. Anything 50 Hz or higher don’t cut it for me. Having said that, I’ve read about people describing the wonderful bass produced by their small bookshelves and how it is perfectly adequate for them. These bookshelf speakers have 5" drivers, reaching down to 60 or 65 Hz or so in the bass. People have different expectations so I would not be surprised to hear about folks preferring smaller speakers in their medium to large rooms. By the way, the Buchardt S400 MKII recommended by Tvad looks good. It has a passive radiator located at the rear of the speaker which boosts bass response. The Marten Parker Duo also works on this same principle. |
In my relatively small room (13' x 21', listening on the short axis on one side of the room), I am using 2 small standmounts (Harbeth P3Rs) and one small REL T/5 floor firing sub. I find having a seperate sub useful in order to move it around to get the most satisfying bass response (something you can't do with floorstanders). Note that my speakers start to fall off at around 75Hz, and are present but lacking in anything below around 65Hz. They do an admirable job of carrying the musical load without the sub, but gently adding a touch of bottom end really fills out the tonal spectrum (as I nudge up the crossover and balance the volume of the T/5 you can hear the presentation grow in size - the effect is not subtle, and the result is amazing). |
Things would be a lot more polite and correct if everyone was forced to use their own name for a handle. Respect and proper behavior would emerge. Not this total mess we have come to have on internet forums. If someone attacks, and one party uses their own name and company connection, the attacker/other should be doing the same. Otherwise, the attackers integrity (the one with hidden origins) is, IMO and IME, quite suspect, to say the least. This would never hold up in court, or in a given city or municipalities public meeting and so on. Not in an academic environment, not even at a meeting in a bar ...or even with a few people on the street. Such behavior of being hidden from view and verbally/etc stabbing others violently, in such ways, is no less a problem and societal/cultural point of shame and personal degradation... than any other deeply, strongly and widely opposed human incorrectness. I do note that the vast bulk of such nasty anti-societal (literally inhumane, uncivilized, barbaric - by all measure) behaviors are coming from those who attack audio tweaks and high end audio ideals and aspirations in product works and design. |
