Has the cost of HiFi gotten a bit too much?

@palasr + 1

@thecarpathian + 1

@andy2 

Where does that cash come from?  

The FED has a way to distribute wealth.  Quantitative easing is a way to transfer wealth from the middle class to the ultra rich.  That's why they can afford such expensive stuffs.

Just what is "middle class" and what is "ultra rich" to you? The very definition of wealth accumulation is to understand the rules and then adapt your financial habits to maximize your opportunity to succeed. 

Some people growth their wealth at a pace that is faster than the effects of inflation, others do not. Hifi gear is a luxury consumable...one should only spend amounts which don't negatively impact their long term plans. Some of the discussion here is more akin to griping about the effects of swimming against the current of a river. I've never seen that as very productive.

As long as we are willing to fork over the cash, the supplier is willing to raise the price. 

Where does that cash come from?  

The FED has a way to distribute wealth.  Quantitative easing is a way to transfer wealth from the middle class to the ultra rich.  That's why they can afford such expensive stuffs.

....when you watch/listen to him speak, it makes you wonder how on God’s great earth was this person elected.

Simple,  by listening to the idiot he was running against speak. 

Funny thing is I have been buying some European gear from Hungary and Poland at very reasonable cost.

I also keep in mind that people build products not countries. As long as the company is not owned by an oppressive government and they are building a quality product I will give it consideration (Chi-Fi in particular).

I picked up a wonderful Heed Elixir (Hungary) and popped it into my system for now to conserve on all my Russian Tubes in my main Integrated and it to is from Hungary

@divertiti , if you were to go take a look at his past posts (time you'll never get back  and regret to your dying day) you'll see he's very consistent in his beliefs.

All the best,
Nonoise

And now that all the political nonsense is out of the way, let’s address the OP’s actual question. Is the price of high end equipment raising faster than inflation. YES. And the reason is very simple. Suppliers of any product will charge the maximum price the market has shown it is willing to pay. We audiophiles are not special in this reguard. Just ask anyone who has bought a Harley, or Porsche, or any number of other luxury brands. Who’s really responsible, just look in the mirror. As long as we are willing to fork over the cash, the supplier is willing to raise the price. If you’re not happy paying more, then shop the used market and pay less.

+1 @nonoise , it has to be satire right? No one is that aggressively stupid...right?

Wait until the United States starts writing checks for $trillions to rebuild Ukraine.  We will contribute 90% to rebuild Ukraine.  We should send a bill to Russia.  Perhaps tell Russia we will lift some of the sanctions if they pay to rebuild.  As I see it, what does Ukraine have left after their buildings have been destroyed?  We will pay 90% of the cost and allow our allies to take complete advantage of us.

What do the citizens of Ukraine have left to live in?  How many years will they have to wait until they have a place to live?  I think we need to send Putin the bill.  If he doesn't respond with action, then enforce even more sanctions.

we collectively are all really best off sticking to hifi oriented discussions...

anonymous forums without disclosing what qualifications and orientations folks have to discuss politics and macro economic policy creates only heat, and sheds zero light -- it isn’t like anyone with strongly held views will be convinced by anyone else with opposing views, right?

so let’s try to stick to what this place is meant to be about

And to think we have to yet endure 3 more years of Biden. I’m amazed how much this idiot has destroyed in little more than a year. The evil Orange man was not so bad, now was he.....when you watch/listen to him speak, it makes you wonder how on God’s great earth was this person elected.

That has to be the most idiotic trolling I've read in a long time.
180º from reality. Alternate reality stuff. Go play on the freeway.

All the best,
Nonoise

Blah blah blah blah blah.  (Oh, did the OP actually pose a question?)

Economic debates on Audiogon amuse me. It reminds me of the Yogi Berra quote “nobody goes there any more, its too crowded”.

When demand outstrips supply, prices rise. While it isn’t quite that simple, its darn close. When certain wages rise (which everyone logically could agree was long overdue) prices rise. Real wages were virtually flat for decades. Demand for raw materials has risen…so have prices. Availability of new items has constricted so natuarally prices of preowned items have risen as well.  The ham radio guys whined when their inexpensive tube supplies began to dry up because of the increase in tube audio gear sales created competition. More people interested, more demand. 

What we really have here is when groups fall behind their perceived rightful place economically, they begin to complain and declare the game is rigged. Its more likely than not a disconnect in what some people believe they deserve vs the fact that no one deserves anything except the fair opportunity to succeed and get ahead. Everyone has decisions to make. For instance, it wasnt too long ago when “luxuries” like telephone, cable, a car, air conditioning….a stereo or television were not considered necessities. Somehow these items and more became a right. Remember when eating out was considered a special treat? Remember when “earning” the privilege of a credit card required work?

I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone but the idea of going in to debt to acquire a pair of speakers (or any luxury purchase) is pretty darn close to irresponsible. Not saving for retirement and a rainy day fund? Not buying life or health insurance? Who couldnt do the math that when real rates of return on savings were at or near zero that that circumstance required more savings for your future to maintain a certain standard of living? Who really thought that shifting from defined benefit retirement plans to defined contribution plans was better? If you are beyond a certain age and utilize debt to “keep up with the Joneses” you are making catasrophic decisions for your future. Whatever happened to aspiring toward a goal rather than whining about not having soming something? Whatever happened to a responsible adult seeing something that to them is overpriced just moving along…the only cure for irrationally overpriced goods are irrationally overpriced goods? If no one buys them, prices will drop until they find a buyer. The real challenge though is to be honest with ourselves when we something that to us is outrageously overpriced sell like hotcakes. So, are we the sane person in a crazy world or are we the crazy person in a sane world? 

So, if someone with a $100k system doesn’t care about the price of their system or resale prices, who’s right? Maybe they sacrificed, made some good choices, got lucky….whatever the reason…Maybe their time is worth more than fretting over a few grand here or there. If you happen to be young enough to secure your financial future, make those decisions. If your stereo is a considerable part of your net worth, maybe you should reevaluate your “asset allocation”. 

The small manufacturers still offer great deals search them out.

One of the most, perhaps the most difficult thing for many to admit (if only to themselves) is that they have been wrong about something or someone; that their opinion was mistaken.  

@audioguy85 ,

It would serve you and the health of this thread well if you confined your idiotic political opinions to yourself and your ignorant, like-minded buddies.

Maybe some things have become out of control, but has ARC ever been cheap? Or how about McIntosh? Heck I took out a loan on my first large speakers. The used Bozak B’s were mine for 24 easy monthly payments.

JD

Focal Sopra 2's are my judge of price gouging. Just two years ago they could be had for $15k. They now cost $22k. There is no way to slice that cake to justify it. Glad I got mine before the gouging began, but I won't be back to Focal. 

It has nothing to do with inflation. Go to an audio show. I did last month and $35k-over $100k speakers sound much worse than say the Revel salon/studio 2’s for $23k or lower. If it was inflation and you also based it on sq, the revels would be $150k. There were some nice sounding speakers at the show but instead of $30k or more, they should have been priced for sq around $5k or a little more

I live in a summer vacation hot spot where multi million dollar homes with 100k + sports cars and SUV’s are parked in garages. The homes are occupied 2 months of the year and occasional weekends. Thankfully my modest 3 bedroom 2 car garage Cape within a short walk from many of these homes is valued at over 700k vs it’s build price of 180k including the lot back in ’98. I enjoy the same restaurants and beaches while having earned a good living designing and installing home automation systems and theaters in quite a few of these homes. As ridiculous as it seems to me and many others here in the area to have so much invested in a home and vehicles that get such little use, our local economy thrives so I for one don’t care what people choose to spend their money on let alone how much of it. I do however feel very strongly that the return and reward in a 2 channel audio system above a given investment cost today is marginally very slim compared to other areas of investment such as real estate for example. How much reinventing of the wheel has there really been with amplifiers for instance in the last 60 years in comparison to automotive engineering or medical advancements? The DIY community thrives in the restoration and enjoyment of older tube gear because of the great value both monetarily and for the fact that they can produce sound that rivals modern production pieces costing much, much more. The end goal most of us desire is the ultimate sonic experience available within our budget. The funny thing is most are never satisfied and keep chasing the unicorn. Proof is in how many components are bought and sold by individuals on a regular basis. Are you making uninformed decisions, never content, believing BS hype? I want to sit my ass in the chair and enjoy the music...I know unicorns don’t exist except in fairy tails.

@audioguy85,

This is what we call a sh**post.  This is how entire threads get deleted. A completely off-topic little rant.  I'm glad you feel better.

There are frequently frictional lags in the degree to which the prices of goods track input costs. However, the current global circumstances have created an unusual, if not unique, situation. We have become accustomed to a having very low interest rates and very low inflation, but that situation is now reversing. We also have the various global supply chain problems arising from various circumstances including the pandemic and the current war being waged by Russia on Ukraine. The UK is suffering from further cost increasing pressures arising from Brexit.

Often when faced with input price rises, manufacturers and service providers try to absorb the costs to maintain their position vis a vis competitors. However, there eventually comes a tipping point where they have to raise prices and the effect can look rather sudden even though it's the result of a period of sustained pressure.

Separate to all that, the stock of wealth in capitalist economies tends to increase over time as a result of rising productivity and also inheritance.

Aside from the current price pressures, I haven't seen radical rises in the price of high end audio. But what I have seen is the introduction of higher priced lines i.e. product lines where the price is higher ab initio - Constellation Audio and Techdas are examples.

Around 1985, I bought a Harman Kardon integrated amp (the 645 vxi) for around $250 IIRC. It's still hooked up in a bedroom system. These days, NAD sells a similar product (the C316BEE V2) for $479 (Crutchfield price).  So the price hasn't doubled in ~37 years.  But neither product has ethernet, USB, WiFi, bass management, upsampling, or an LCD touch screen.  In many HiFi components, new technologies not only inflate the price, they often become outdated within 5 years or so.  Same with vehicles. An infotainment system adds maybe $2000+ to the price, and is outdated many years before the engine starts burning oil.  Yet it provides little capability - much less, really - than you'd get from a $500 tablet. 

I would rather have an engineering marvel like a Ferrari than an equivalent priced high end audio system.

Say a 296 GTB  for example - $568,300  Jays Audio is often reviewing systems in his basement , for this sort of price  

Or alternatively you could  have the Ferrari - With a long legged blonde in the front seat in tiniest  of mini skirts

C'mon men what would you really want?

@andy2 I think the root cause is the FED has been printing money. I mean look at their balance sheet...

I am not sure how the FED going to unwind their 8 trillion dollar balance sheet. Is it even possible? What if we going to have a crisis tomorrow, what are they going to do? Just adding more to the existing 8 trillion? This inflationary condition is not going to be "transitory". What if it’s here to stay.

Yes. Except that it is now pushing 9 trillion dollars and rising (see chart - opens a bit slowly, then use pointer) and the Fed is clueless about what to do.

The *rate* of increase may slow, eventually reach a plateau, as has been anticipated for quite some time. Just guessing.. But as to a decrease, the implications of doing so are scary. The Elites won’t let that happen in a hurry.

Mr Powell is indeed a clever man, being a lawyer by trade, and a member of the establishment Elite.

Add all this liquidity sloshing around the world, negative real interest rates but nominal rates rising, with supply chain constraints, inflation genie out of the bottle, massive budget debt and ongoing deficits, geopolitical tensions, and other structural issues, and stick on When the Levee Breaks. Like in the closing credits to the film The Big Short.

@tsacremento : +1! We live in the new Golden Age - which means the Rich get richer (way richer) and the Middle Class and the Poor increasingly suffer and struggle to afford necessities. Nobody needs a $10K phono cartridge or a $100K speaker system!

viva la revolution. history will repeat itself.  what happen to Reagans trickle down economy?  

Marantz is coming out with a very favorably reviewed class A/B streaming integrated amp for $2500.00, just add a couple of mid-priced speakers, speaker cable, and a Qobuz subscription and you’ve got a very good system for easily under four grand.

The sky is far from falling for reasonably priced gear!

If you think audio equipment prices are getting high, they are flat lining compared to lumber prices,. Read this quote:

"On Tuesday, the cash price per thousand board feet of lumber was at $1,391, according to industry trade publication Random Lengths. While that’s down a bit from its $1,515 all-time high set on May 28, it’s up a staggering 288% since April 2020. Prior to the pandemic, the price usually floated between $350 and $500."

You see 2x4 studs at Lowes for $8.00. and 1/2" 4’x8’ plywood sheets at Home Depot for $57.00, both ungodly prices. Those prices have precluded building a woodworking shop at home until hopefully prices get back to pre-Covid levels next year. But that was supposed to happen this year, along with this years significant increase in lumber production. I’ve invested in a new tonearm and cartridge instead this year.

Mike

@gregdude

Having worked in high tech manufacturing and spent years working on mainland China… Chinese Manufacturing is just that. Chinese that have put together a business, hired Chinese workers to produce and sell a product. They are like us… try to avoid getting in trouble with their government… know the boundaries of how to avoid it… know when their government is lying to them… and work to support their families… enjoy going out to dinner if they can afford it. They also have a cultural way of interaction among themselves… more aggressive than we are. But they know our manor of interaction and treat us accordingly. I have also worked in supply chains and manufacturing in Japan, across Europe and Mexico, different cultures, but good people working within the distant confines of their government.

@nonoise + 1

as i see it there is definitely a proliferation of nosebleed priced gear by many makers... i think it is in response, predictably, to the emergence of top 1% ers in society ... if one looks in stereophile or tas the top categories seems to be exclusively populated with just insanely priced gear

that said, in more affordable price tiers, there is also excellent choice of gear, and i would venture to say, more and better choice than ever, and that is where helpful forums like this come in, advice and experiences by real users who live in the real world of money shared openly

a great example i have recently put together has been maggie 17i’s driven by a hegel h190 amp streaming roon... a core computer, a decent network switch, an ethernet cable into the hegel, speaker cables into the maggies... so simple, not too expensive (less than 10 grand in gear at msrp, more like 5.5-6 grand used) and the sound is absolutely, simply superb...

another example is a system recently put together for a dear friend - classic spendor sp1’s, pair of older rel q150 subs, bluesound node 2i streamer into a nuprime ida-8 integrated w dac... 3500 in cost used, sounds just lovely, full range, played soft or loud

the existence and marketing of ridiculous nosebleed gear like $20,000 amps and $10,000 streamers and $30,000 speakers should not dissuade real audiophiles and music lovers living in the real world who still appreciate the value of wisely spent money

chinese manufacturers  Chinese communist party 

The sky high prices are sweet music to the ears of the Chinese manufacturers. They are offering great value at excellent prices. The other hifi manufacturers are just accelerating the process of digging their own graves.

Go to a high end outlet. Cruise a few mail-order websites. See what you can get for the total amount you want to spend. Read equipment reviews. Read Audiogon.. Chances are decent you'll be able to put together a system that'll please your ears and not completely decimate your wallet.

When I bought an ARC SP-3, D51, and D75 in 1973, they were priced at $595, $695, and $995. Not that much more than the price of mass-market mid-fi components. Sure, the price of ARC products has over the ensuing years risen far more than has inflation, but many would argue so has their sound quality. But $25,000 for a pre-amp?! I lay the blame for the absurd price of ultra high end products at the feet of Mark Levinson, who started the whole high end (I hate the term) "snob appear" movement. He, and Harry Pearson and his accomplices at TAS.

On the other hand, do Schitt products (and Rega, and others) sound better per dollar than did budget components of the 70’s and 80’s? IMO, based on sound quality vs. cost, there are current products which are a better value than at any time in the past. I would now much rather own a pair of Magnepan LRS than a pair of AR-3a’s, which in 1968 cost $500/pr. The same can be said of Vandersteen’s Model 2 loudspeaker, or any number of other beer-budget products.

For those who don’t mind buying used (as with other above, imo THE way to go), one can pick up a Music Reference RM-10 for $1500, an RM-9 for $2000, and an RM-200 for $3000. Better than comparably priced ARC amps, but then no bragging rights. Except to those who value design genius, build quality, reliability, sound quality, and value. The RM-9 is a far, far better amp than is a used $2000 ARC. IMO.

When it comes to value, I will once again point ya’ll to the Eminent Technology LFT-8b, imo the absolute best deal in all of audiophiliadom (an opinion shared VPI’s Harry Weisfeld, who proclaimed the LFT-8b to provide the best midrange reproduction he has ever heard, regardless of price. As the owner of the QUAD ESL, I wouldn’t go THAT far ;-). I expect that advice will be, as usual, ignored. Suit yourself.

You’re on the money @artemus_5.    

@andy2

I appreciate your comment, but honestly no. I would recommend with a economics class, follow with a couple finance classes… graduate level. Then a few years of following details of inflation, GDP, PMI, Fed moves… in this setting it ends up in a big waste of time. I (or I doubt anyone) can begin to enlighten lay folks in a few paragraph posts. Any assertion would be followed by pages of background and caveats… I would be spending hours researching an appropriate way to summarize.

I worked as the economic and strategic advisor to the CEO of a global high tech company. I have invested in the stock and bond market over the last thirty years. I spent years following stocks and economic indicators both professionally and personally. This is not a useful topic for an audio forum.

The FED doesn't print money, the DEP bureau in  the Treasury  department  does.

Abstracting stuff up to a couple variables and thinking you can draw a conclusions is idiotic. Like reading an amps rms watts and drawing a conclusion about what it sounds like. .

May be you could educate us a bit?  Tell us what we don't know.

OT, but since it was brought up by the OP in the "printing money" reference - can anyone name a currency currently based upon what is universally known as the "Gold Standard"?

I can’t think of one (even going back a decade, or more, ago), but I’m not a history/economy buff.

What I have noticed (past 2 years) is that used cars are often now priced/listed @ 30%+++ more than they were 2 years ago.

I’ve also noticed that used contemporary audio gear has also followed this trend in that 3 years ago 40%-50% off was pretty much the standard for mass produced stuff (this no longer seems to be the case in general).

However, not certain if these higher asking prices are the actual final sale prices.

DeKay

The Fed is unwinding it… Powell is really smart guy and knows what he is doing… and of course is completely independent of the president. I follow this stuff and have a Masters in Finance… having said that I don’t want to discuss it. It is not nearly as simple as it sounds. Abstracting stuff up to a couple variables and thinking you can draw a conclusions is idiotic. Like reading an amps rms watts and drawing a conclusion about what it sounds like. .

It's all Joe Biden's fault.

Everything adds up.  Even before Biden took the office, the FED had been going on a money  printing spree.  When Biden took office, he did have a bit of a spending spree too (basically just adding more spending after spending).

It's all Joe Biden's fault.  🤣🤣🤣

In general, I think high end audio has remained pretty cost level. In 1980 I bought a state of the art amp, a Threshold s500. I had to take out a loan. In todays dollars that is about $18,800. I recently bought a ARC 160s amp for $22K. The performance is not even remotely close… 40 years of progress… but I think it fits in a similar slot. There are many more expensive amps now. But that is because of differentiation in users and developing for better healed audiophiles.

All in all the sound quality level has advanced remarkably. I am sure I could buy an amp better than my Threshold s500 (actually if anyone owned one that has been reconditioned chime in) for $2K. If I am even close on this, it attests to the value of buying true audiophile stuff. I owned a Pass x350 for 15 years and got all but $500 back in trade.

What a mess and still years to go until relief!

I am not sure how the FED going to unwind their 8 trillion dollar balance sheet.  Is it even possible?  What if we going to have a crisis tomorrow, what are they going to do?  Just adding more to the existing 8 trillion?  This inflationary condition is not going to be "transitory".  What if it's here to stay.

The Fed is not just printing money. Stop with the folk economics as it makes you guys look like trolls, which you are.

All the best,
Nonoise

Andy,

I agree with you. Can't just keep printing money.

What a mess and still years to go until relief!

ozzy