Has anyone else auditioned something that really was terrible?
I decided to check out Rotel on current B&W 804's, since I figured these speakers would be most similar to my older 803"s.Even the sales person had to admit it was not something I would want to listen to for any length of time.Do people buy this for background music?For around $4000 for a CD and integrated amp, it was not impressive. to say the least. It actually sounded like my first preamp, a Crown IC something or other. Someone gave me a 125 wpc Marantz surround receiver. I plugged it in and listened for 5 minutes, then permanently re-boxed it to sell, if I ever get around to it. It is totally unlistemable. Am I just spoiled?
You listen to a system, including the room and its acoustics, not individual components.
It’s always possible a particular unit is defective and that should be ruled out first, but when things sound really bad most often it is because the components in the system are not good matches. SAme components in a different combo elsewhere could be the bees knees.
The most disappointing system I ever heard was a 6 digit setup at Sound By Singer in NYC a few years back. The speakers were large Peak Consult and the amp Luxman. Other systems in there sounded very good. I suspect something was defective in that setup but if so the sales guy did not seem to notice.
RE; Mismatched components. Yes, if an amp is such a cheap design that the power supply will not driver certain speakers, thent it is mismatched to all but efficient speakers. I'll give an example of the difference power supplies: The very nice, early Bryston 4B is 200 watts per channel. The contemporary Audire Forte is 125 wpc, but has a two ohm rating of 400 wpc full range. The Bryston uses 4 output transistors per channel, and is not rated for 2 ohms. if I remember correctly (I have a 3B.). The Audire, 6 outputs per channel. (Later Audire's use many more), but I think the much bigger difference is in the power supplies. Each channel has: Audire 500 watt tranformer and 4 x 26,000 mf's of filter capacitance; Bryston, 375 and 2 x 4000. My old Polaris Sumo got great reviews. It had practically no bass on my B&W 803's, and was even weak on my 38 year old B&W's. It's new owner loves it and says it sounds the same as the one he already owns. James Bongiorno (of Ampzilla fame), who designed some Polaris pieces, wanted no credit for the Sumo. Nice name thought. Reverse psychology, I guess. Yes, it has a small power supply. Even my old Phase Linear 400 lost bass at high volumes; Power supply, OK for 8 ohm speakers, but weaker than my less powerful Audire's in the bass. WEIGHT MATTERS!
A lot of the time when a system sounds bad it is due to an amplifier/speaker mismatch.Unfortunately many modern speakers are very badly designed from ease of drive perspective which means they are likely to sound bad with a lot of amplifiers.I was recently reading a Hi Fi News with a roundup of the best speakers for the year and they were just about all difficult loads-typically dipping down to under 3 ohms in the bass where they should be more like 5-10 ohms .Focal Sopra was one but there was even worse loads than them [Wilson for example].These are amplifier hostile speakers!Speakers like this should not be recommended by anybody.
I would have said the GoldenEar Triton 1. I listened to them at my local dealer and it sounded like something was broken. After that experience I was convinced GE was terrible. Two months later I went to Axpona and the Triton 1’s were teamed up with Primaluna. I thought the combo at the show sounded absolutely fantastic, so I’m always a little hesitant to say a particular component was terrible because odds are I’m wrong. Now, something was wrong that day I listened at the dealer but it wasn’t the GoldenEar like I concluded.
Been a few things. VACs integrated, the early version. We got it shipped in straight from the fairly positive Stereophile review. We assumed the best, told them it was broke and sent it back. They replaced a resistor, a couple of caps and a tube. Flat, no soundstage, not much for Dynamics. While the boss is on the phone with VAC, I hook up a little Italian EL34 SE integrated and turn it up a bit. Boss looks at me, the little amp, the phone, then sent it back. Sonic Frontier's SF1 preamp was a complete dud. Lifeless. The old Onkyo M504 amp that is making a comeback in the market. Pretty much any Carver SS amp has a Sonic signature that makes me cringe. Very bright, decent dynamics, but the bass is hollow. Crown has that upward tilt but big bass. Most of the newer behemoth amps anymore have become too bright and sterile. Speakers? Don't know where to begin. In spite of the bad stuff, there have been many very thoughtful designers who actually took our critiques seriously. An importer we represented brought us two pairs of speakers with a glowing review in a Canadian magazine. They weren't bad, just not up to the hype. Recessed midrange and kind of muddy bass. Amazingly, a box showed up one day from the manufacturer with a very nice letter explaining the modifications driven by our review. The speakers were now quite good and did everything as we would expect. Cairn did the same with an integrated with odd voicing. Sent us the updated sample straight from the factory in France. Got involved with a couple of phono stage projects as well. One from square one, 3 in development. I miss the old industry.
Mogami balanced/XLR interconnects are common in recording studios, not so their speaker cables. Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere, a man who knows good sound, recommends the ic's for use with his electronics.
Though I know they work for many, these were definitely were the quickest "not for me!" reaction I ever had. Their sound was much too dry and flat for my taste.
I was auditioning $2k floor standing speakers recently. Two speakers that stood out as being surprisingly not good were the B&W 603 and the Goldenear Audio Triton Five. I've seen good reviews for both but how they sounded seemed nothing like what was said about them in reviews. Maybe their sound signatures don't fit my preference? I got a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 300s which do seem to be a great value at $2k. My notes on both:
Bowers & Wilkins 603: These speakers were a bit of mess. Their sound seems to be the result in trying to design a speaker that can play lower in the low end and higher in the high end without sorting out the fundamentals of how to play music first. Kind of boring to listen to since it fails to reproduce so much of the music captured in recordings and fails to play rhythms well.
Goldenear Triton 5: These were impressive sounding speakers with a lot of "presence" but I determined pretty quickly that they weren't for me. The breadth of the image they put out was wide but not well focused. The low end was full and powerful. Where they fell short for me was that their sound was a bit aggressive and pretty quickly fatiguing for me. Also the low end was a bit loose sounding and tended to overshadow the mid range and the highs.
I demoed some bookshelf Martin Logans at Magnolia in Atlanta and thought they were terribly directional and lacked power all around. The entry B&W’s they had sounded much better though not my taste either. Also heard a pair of DynAudio specials as previous reviewer and the seller at a specialty store here in ATL raved about but I thought the Monitor Audio Silver bookshelves sounded better for a fraction of the price playing the same track. Couldn’t believe it!
i gambled on a pair of Sonus Faber Principias without hearing prior acquired through here and have been an excellent value.
I wouldn't say terrible, but I simply didn't enjoy the sound of some Paradigm 5Fs I listened to at the local shop a while back. It just sounded harsh. Source and amplification were McIntosh. I simply wasn't impressed for the price. The B&W I tried next were more to my liking.
Denon and Marantz - awful. I used to think Onkyo was a better budget A/V receiver, but after using Anthem - no contest for Anthem. I A/B'ed Dynaudio Special 40's with Martin Logan Motion 40's - Motion 40 smoked the Dynaudio - that surprised me. I was surprised that Classe class D amps (Sigmas) smoked both Moon and McIntosh. Parasound Halo P6 was pretty rank, the phono preamp was worse than $29 Behringer. Lost $500 to try that unit. The $1.09 a foot KarmaKable still some of the best sounding speaker cable to my ears (10 guage tin coated copper). I tried the PS Audio BHK250, sounded good, but underpowered - then I tried Jeff Rowland - ummm - no contest.
Granted, this is only a $99 headphone amp, but how in the world can they sell it? Hard to describe actually, but it produced some really strange digital to analog conversion. Maybe I had a flawed unit, but I returned it the very next day.
How is GoldenEar not on this list like 5 times already? I have never heard something so well-reviewed that sounded so bland and with such poor imaging. We were a dealer for them temporarily, but couldn't sell them with a good conscience.
The other one is the Raidho D-1. We transported a set for a client from one house to another about 5 years ago and they sounded so bad I thought we may have damaged the tweeters. Seriously. We brought them back to the office and played them on 3 different systems for multiple employees and everyone agreed they just sounded bad. The B&W 805D absolutely crushed them above 80Hz. We even sneaked the 805D into the client's house while he was away and played them on the Zanden gear he had and the B&W was still way better. We told him we were concerned about the Raidhos which is why we brought them to our office to be checked out, but we couldn't find anything physically or electrically wrong with either one.
We never tried to sell the client on the B&W because we didn't want it to look like we were poo-pooing his gear. We just reconnected his D-1s and he said they sounded as they should. We were all shocked.
I dropped by a local audio boutique a few years ago and they were demonstrating the then-new Wilson Duette stand-mount speakers. I don't remember the electronics they were connected to, but they were decent, but the sound was bad - flat and no decent treble. Then I looked closer and saw that the source material was from a laptop computer. I think they were using the audio straight out of the laptop's sound card, though I can't be sure. To be fair, it may have belonged to a customer who brought it in for a demo, but it did the Wilsons no favors.
Well... I lusted after the original Revel Ultima Salon’s for years - highly reviewed and rated as A+ . Heard them many times at dealers and shows and dismissed the dull sound as associated equipment or room. Finally against what my ears were telling me I purchased my Salon’s... three amps, four pre-amps, and two different rooms later I sold them.
I do have a friend that own’s a pair plus the new Salon2’s as well and likes them very much. So hold your flames, clearly my ears are broken hence the name tinear123
The worst system I ever heard was at a friends house. Before I tell the story, I'm a firm believer that we all hear things differently. Because I don't like it doesn't mean it's a bad product or that I'm right and others with differing opinions are wrong. I think that if you had 3 people in front of a system there's a good chance that you will get some differing opinions among the group.
My friend had been going through equipment trying to find the best fit for him and spending a lot of money churning gear. He acquired a very highly reviewed system and invited me over to hear it. Well I spent 20 minutes squirming in his listening chair and he finally asked me what was wrong. I reluctantly explained to that for me the sound was so harsh and in your face that I couldn't listen to it. That's a hard thing to tell a friend. In any case he ended up selling the system a few weeks later and downsized quite a bit to a system that sounded much better to everyone who heard it including his wife. He has had the same system for the last 9 years. I won't name the products because I am sure to get flamed. My friend started a discussion on this when he sold the gear and the distributor had AGON take the thread down.
The lesson I learned is not to buy anything that you haven't heard in your own listening room, if possible.
Someone noted that he was surprised by the fact one of us did not like a KEF LS50 speakers. After all, reviewer Steve Gutenberg uses them as a reference. In a YouTube video. Nelson Pass shows his reference speakers, stating that they are not his best speakers, but are the best he has to show the differences between electronics. Steve G did not say they are great. He said that with the right sub, someone might be happy with them. That is not a great endorsement.
Kren0006: I am in that category now with my family. They looked at my Parasound amp, pre-amp and Martin Logan towers and were obviously puzzled that I would spend such money, when they already thought my old system was good. I’m too old to be having another mid-life crisis, so I think they are attributing it to a semi-psychotic break resulting from the departure of my love mate. (Might play a part) 😁
mtdining: I’m surprised to see that you were not impressed by the KEF LS50s. Steve Gutenberg and some other reviewers have raved about them, stating that they are their own reference speakers and, when combined with quality subs, would likely satisfy most discerning listeners.
I visited a very hi end dealer a few years ago to audition the much hyped Focal Sopra 2s. They were connected to an Aestetix setup. The sound was very schrill and lacked smooth transitions from mid to highs. I asked that we switch to his VAC setup. Small difference but not much. I remember being very disappointed after all the great reviews I had read.
Yeah, I almost included the Sopra line in my post. They are well marketed, so I have a heard them a number of times. The Utopia line is perfectly fine sounding, so I am open to changing my conclusion about the Sopras if I encounter them again.
There are very few awful components and speakers. When considering the price, most products offer very nice performance, that is, among the HiFi products. Mid and Low Fi, it's a total crap shoot.
A total POS that deserved to die was the Advent SoundSpace Control. I drove over it with my car. Have pics to prove it! :)
Has anyone else auditioned something that really was terrible?
Real music doesn’t sound like a drilling machine or will serve you real pain. You may like the music or not, but real acoustical pain some manufacturers serve...can be only compensated with a high price tag or a lot of advertising... My most horrible hours Amps (Pre or Power): Mission, Rotel, Naim, Goldmund Telos, Pass Phonos (all) Speakers: JMLab Grand Utopia (maximum pain with Accuphase or Goldmund) Turntables: Garrard 501, Linn LP12 (any), Rockport Sirius III Tonearms: Goldmund T3F, Clearaudio (any), Triplanar VII+ Cartridges: Clearaudio Goldfinger, Lyra Kleos, Zyx Omega
Probably the best sounding amps for the money are made by Spark/Cayin. Spark makes all Prima Luna line. I only consider stereo based on ~~reputation~~~ by seasoned audiohiples. And photos of the inner guts. A picture tells a thousand words. Marantz would never count in my consideration. The other lines worth mentioning are Line Magnetic and ...thats about it.
I visited a very hi end dealer a few years ago to audition the much hyped Focal Sopra 2s. They were connected to an Aestetix setup. The sound was very schrill and lacked smooth transitions from mid to highs. I asked that we switch to his VAC setup. Small difference but not much. I remember being very disappointed after all the great reviews I had read.
I would hope we can all agree that sonic/aural memory is somewhat faulty, not as in I can't remember what my rig sounds like, but as in it's difficult to remember someone else's rig you heard a month ago.
With that as a background, I heard the worst most absurd speakers ever on the planet. Plasmatronics! Built-in amp for the woofer and a plasma tweeter driven by a tank of helium internal to the speaker. A single mass-less point source, wow should be amazing radiating in every direction equally. Well think again, not only is it shrill, screechy, insanely out of balance, smeared all over the place, but add to that the "tweeter" creates ozone that not only makes you light headed but is an excellent lung irritant.
To make matters worse the "tweeter" has no upper limit on volume, it will just keep getting louder, way beyond ear splitting levels. Oh yeah, you also have to take the tank out and get it filled with helium on a regular basis.
The biggest issue with B&W's, other than price, is that they reveal just how mediocre most electronics and recordings are. I love the B&W's with diamond tweeters, and wish I has some. Most manufacturers try to mask anomalies, but this also masks some good parts. Well, another issue is that most amps do not have adequate power supplies to run them properly, making us run subs, unless you are lucky enough to have amps (Yes, it still takes two) that were reviewed as having "Gargantuation bass", like my Audire amps. Compared to a Bryston 200 wpc amp, with its two 375 watt trannies, plus four per channel Motorola outputs and 4000 mf of filter caps per channel, my 125 wpc Audires have six outputs, a 500 watt tranny, and 4 26.000 mf per channel. I believe this is why my Bryston fades a bit at loud volumes with lots of bass. All Audire amps above mine have stacks of outputs on the same circuits used in mine, and yes, they are better, as is newer Bryston, I hear. So much for my plebeian cheering section,as it dreams of diamonds.
Someone mentioned the 1970's McIntosh triangular speakers. When I was a old enough to work summer jobs, my friend and I were shopping for stereos. We went to the Mac dealer in north Fort Lauderdale and heard them at only the second high end store I had visited Our local Boca Raton store was totally out of our price range, with its Maggies, Audio Research, and "entry level" Luxman equipment. Even with our naive ears, except for being musicians of sorts, we both agreed that those were horrible sounding speakers. In the middle of the Summer, my buddy had decided on a Pioneer receiver that was several hundred dollars. That same Mac dealer carried them for their relatively impoverished customers. When we got paid on a Friday, we rushed to the store in our electrician boots, denim tennis shorts and tee shirts, because they were only open from 9-5 for their wealthier clientele. No one would help us. In fact, the sales people were maneuvering the few other customers away from us, while giving us dirty side glances. Finally, my buddy took out a stack of bills and started waving them around, yelling, "If you want us to leave, simply take my money and let me buy this receiver. They quickly complied, without a hint of an apology. When Advents came out, the Boca store picked them up along with Phase linear for a truly entry level product! They treated us like royalty, because that was before Boca Raton was infiltrated by people who wanted to glean some breeding, but not manners, by moving there from Fort Lauderdale.
IMO it all comes down to the understanding of what makes a component sound good. Someone said most of the stuff is crap - that maybe true but you all keep falling for the same old lines. You need to understand what makes a component sound good. I always enjoy comments like "build like a tank". I still do not understand what that means or how that makes a component sound better.
I was at VPI Industries with our phono stage which is a reference level product. In one of the rooms was a pair of Martin Logan speakers. They were being driven by a Peach Tree 50WPC integrated amplifier. Way under powered. BUT the phono stage was so good that the sound was better than all the other systems. So blanket statements like many above (not all) are just opinions with not much explanation of why the system performed poorly.
Most components are similar in design and parts quality so IMO they sound similar with certain areas sounding better that the other component. Similar capacitors, resistors, layout, etc. What do you expect to hear different then? Specs IMO do not indicate how a component will perform.
Once you learn what makes something sound good then you will understand how to select the correct component to use for your tastes (three is no best of anything or very few of them IMO). It is really that simple. I was at a persons home not to long ago. Many people told me that the sound was really good and I had to go hear it. They were all impressed. I sat down to take a listen to all of the comments that everyone said they liked about the system. I sat there for a few seconds and thought to myself, what are these people hearing. I asked to owner to make a few simple changes and they were like wow the sound is much better. More open, more dynamic, more musical, more details and dimension. So am I to think that all these people don’t know anything about sound? They all thought the system was incredible before I made a few simple changes. I could have installed a resistor and made the system sound even better.
I do not mean to insult anyone or anything like that, but I will keep repeating myself, learn what makes one component sound different that the other one and you will be much happier. I am also always learning new things myself about sound.
B&Ws with diamond tweeters always force me out of the room within minutes. The Kef LS50s shocked me with how distorted they are. Magician speakers in the M series.
@bob540: Don’t worry too much about the inexpensive gear thing.
Yes, oftentimes (but def not always) more expensive stuff can sound better, but it is never generally linear and I’d almost say it’s sorta inverse exponential, which probably is meaningless scientifically but hopefully you get my point.
If you have a solid low cost system you often have to spend WAY more for a sound improvement that most normal people (eg, everyone in my family but me) would say is not at all worth the upgrade cost!
Had a junior salesman try to impress me with a pair of infinity speakers -can't remember the exact pair but the had a largish woofer .they sure went loud with a little coaxing but the sound was horrid.Needless to say, I was unimpressed with the salesman not understanding what was wrong with them.I'm guessing he was a metal fan and preferred loudness to any other aspect of sound
My system had no resolution, and I kept having to turn it up. But it didn’t matter; it just wasn’t right, anymore. I was quite concerned by the dawning realization that my hearing changed (again). While looking up the number for my ENT doctor, the lightbulb went off, and I discovered that the bi-wire jumpers of my ProAcs were disconnected, so no tweeter. (I blame my kids!). Although it sounds like the source of the problem should have been obvious, I was freaking out. Life is good.
I’ve heard a lot of things in my years, but truly awful....
So, please keep in mind my experience with McIntosh is very limited, and they do like meters, but one of the worst high end systems I ever heard was in the late 90’s. A triangle speaker pair with a big McIntosh stack. My goodness, ear drills. OUCH!! Since then the only similar experience I’ve had was while trying to audition DAC’s. The dealer tried to demo the GE Triton One and I knew nothing about them, but I thought he was trying to hurt me. The treble was awful and screechy. He switched to some Paradigms which I had more experience with and all was well. To be fair the demo room was way too cramped with the sofa up against the wall, but there you have it, my absolute two worst experiences listening to gear. But wait, there’s more!
I did get to listen to the NAD Master's DAC. Maybe it was cold, but the Parasound ZDAC totally outclassed it. Could the main issue be very bright room, or bad/bright interconnects that made everything sound brigher and harder than it had to? OK, maybe. I don't know, but I went with an ARC DAC 8 which I was only a little happy with, before landing on a Mytek Brooklyn.
Over the last 2 years I stopped by to listen to McIntosh speakers, the dealer just thought I’d enjoy listening to them, as an experiment, and they had some weird plastic resonance they could not shake. For speakers aspiring to the high end, that was pretty bad. I was really disappointed since I thought the McIntosh line array methodology was onto something, but um, no, not these.
Again, I’ve heard McIntosh seriously twice, if you come at me wanting to debate the relative merits of Mc I am not your guy. I’ve never claimed to know them well at all.
I’ve heard some systems that I could not really get into. So, those of you who are my anti-fans, take careful note.
Goodwin’s High End in Waltham, MA? Heard a Spectral system with Avalon Acoustics. It was an all or mostly ceramic speaker. Whip sharp transients. I think the sound could have cut my belt in half if it was any louder, but was it fun? No. Really was not. Got introduced to Patricia Barber though, that was very much worthwhile. My fascination with ceramic drivers would be completely crushed much later, having heard a 2 way with Mundorf tweeters. Bleah. I liked the Tweets though. :) Composite textiles are the way to go for mid-woofers I think, based on what speakers I like tend to use. Focal’s W construction, multi layer paper and resin, fiberglass, love them all.
I got to hear the original B&W Nautilus concept speakers with a full multi-amp Krell stack and custom crossovers at the B&W/Rotel distributorship. Perhaps Burlington, MA? I think they had to wake me up. Had the Snell A/IIIs I heard in my youth spoiled me to so many modern high end speakers?
I’ve also had a few curios things. When I went to audition an integrated amp, the speaker cables were out of phase, and the Wilson Sashas (probably) sounded bright as could be. Perhaps the speaker crossover settings or something in the DAC set up but wow, the treble was so exaggerated I had to turn the treble on the integrated down by a lot to get it to neutral. Fortunately, thanks to @Musiclovers in SF I knew what those speakers sounded like. Thinking that I could tell what part of the problem was speaker, and what was amp I bought the amp and brought it home, and it was perfect. Paying half off for a new Luxman was also irresistible.
Another curious event was my time at a show near the San Francisco airport. It was sponsored by ASC whom I have a lot of respect for, but it seemed all they brought was the tube traps and honestly they sounded awful. Every room had one note bass. Like no matter what was playing it had exactly the same bass signature. The best rooms used generic and modest room treatment. I don’t think the issue is with ASC products, but the reliance on just this one type of product throughout the show.
As always, please, enjoy whatever brand you like. :-) But if you ask me sincerely what unpleasant experiences I've had listening, there you go.
@audioguy85....and therein lies the rub; one persons' delicate wine will strike another as lacquer thinner with tint.
Speakers can get dismissed as being driven by 'meh' gear....conversely, good equipment can only push flawed speakers to a certain point of disappointment.
Even when one has great stuff in a lousy space, it can execute a brilliant Fail. The flip side of that might pass muster....until you get it home.
There's an enormous trail of items that shouldn't have left the drawing board...or screen, to be more 21st century about it.
...and then, there's US. With no 2 ears alike, and I'm not even going to discuss the 'wetware' between them.
Yup, danvignua, you're right. Spoiled rotten. No reason to feel bad about it, though. You're in the right space with the right crowd to admit it.
AA....Audioholics Anonymous....;)
(*L* Now that y'all are having a serious case of 'cabin fever: virus version', stepping on some insteps ought to distract for awhile...)
Went for a demo and they played their best system. CD with some sand amps and those weird Gallo speakers. They thought it was awesome. The music had the oddest single purple-grey color. I asked how much and they proudly told me in that smugness reserved for when they think you're trash. I had the satisfaction of telling them what I thought of the sound.
In fact, I sold a GAS Thoebe for the same buddy. It was really terrible. Iheard why he upgraded to Bryston, even for his Bose towers, which I could listen to, but I would have to drop some music, and probably add some more. As GAS designer James Bongoirno said, If six audiophiles choose a Cd or LP to play on each of the six systems, each piece chosen will sound best on his own system. I like to add: We choose components to make the music we love sound the best to us, and vice versa..
Audioguy85: Not at all. In fact, I mentioned some true crap that I currently own (Marantz 125wpc surround receiver, Bose speakers). I also have friends who have far superior systems to mine. Additionally, my pal gave me a Bryston amp and preamp which are excellent, but a bit sloppy compared to my Audire. I still really enjoy them, and am a bit surprised that there is any noticible dfference, on certain music. My XM tuner is the weak link to my system, but I still enjoy the jazz channel. It is about the music, not the latest addictoin. I would really like some better speakers, but not enough to pay for them. Not much in audio is worse than someone who insists on showing off some obscure swatch of music to prove how great his stuff is, rather than sharing a love of music.
Carvin dcm--2500 power amps, bridged mono, 1 for each speaker. 2500 W per side, effortless, easy, very open , holographic, stadium like sound. Loved them, reliability was worst ever experienced, Within first 3 weeks, one amp went out. Gave them away,
the sound was very good, open, airy, effortless, headroom was unlimited!
Wish I still had them, reliability was just very poor!
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