Looking at your system my first thought is-
have your ears cleaned & get an accurate hearing test...
People in general,and audiophiles in particular,have no clue how much gunk can be lurking in the depths of their ear canels..
Your speakers are known for being highly resolving & pretty much dead on nuetral,possibly even leaning just a tiny bit toward analytical,the amp & pre amp wonderfully musical,organic & natural & the DAC crystal clear..I can't see this system not sounding just about perfect!
Guitar lacking bite, vocal lacking presence
I need some suggestions on how to improve my system.
Guitar sounds too woody and need some treble bite. The vocal reproduction
does not have enough presence.
I also built some of my speakers but non of what I do could make the system sounding a little forward. It's too laid back.
My hearing at high frequency is not very good so that could be an issue.
System:
Speakers : Thiel CS2.4
Preamp: Pass XP10
Amp: Sim Audio W7
DAC: Ayre QB9
Speaker cable: Acoustic Zen Hologram II
Interconnect: QED reference 40 XLR
Any help would be appreciated.
33 responses Add your response
This is a serious question? If so, could post photos under your user ID in virtual systems. It is easy to do. The one you posted is too distorted. But even then it looks like a pile of audio equipment. No system could sound good in that cramped space. Particularly Thiels. I have a friend that has struggled with Thiels for years and they sound atrocious... in poor location... but greatly better than what I think that photo shows. |
What source are you using/feeding into the Ayre? Stacked components like that often inhibits gear to perform it's best (magnetic, electrical and mechanical interference with each other). Dress your cables, keeping signal cables away from power cables (do the best you can do). Are these characteristics you are mentioning heard with all recordings containing guitar and vocal, or just some? My best, MrD. |
I am going to be very blunt and hope to not appear as being rude: The very first thing I did was look at your profile. You are here since 2003 (at least that is what it shows me). That is 22 years. In all these years one would (I assume) have learned to arrange a system properly; especially with such good components that you have. Can you try to clean the mess, set up the speakers properly and then try to play some music? How big is your room, how far are the speakers from the back wall and how far do you sit from the speakers? |
It appears that you are describing a lack of dynamic contrast. This could be dynamic compression. Or, phase cancellation (the room). Or, both. Right off hand, it looks like there may be a power strip with lots of stuff plugged into it. You might try plugging the power amp directly into the wall to see if that helps. The unknown source makes it difficult to zero in on the problem/remedy. It could also be that everything is "okay", but the speakers lack the dynamic impact that you are looking for? 87 db efficiency isn’t "low", but there are high efficiency speakers out there that require 1/10th the power to drive that will push the guitars and vocals more out front, compared to the Thiels. A good evaluation "tool" for room acoustics is to set the preamp at a fairly low volume level and set very close to one of the speakers. Does it sound better? While this system may not make the cover of Stereophile based on its aesthetics, I’ve seen much worse. We had an amp come in to the shop for repair recently, that when the cover was removed .... I’ll just say I’ve seen cleaner Porta Potties at outdoor music festivals.
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@andy2 ...+10 on getting your hearing checked. For any and all who've been exposed to loud anything....concerts, drag races, weapons in conflict or sport, a pissed spouse.... Most hearing aid dealers will do it for free. If you've suffered loss, Don't Scrimp On The Pair. Joe Namath is embarrassing hawking the cheap seat set on the tube; you can do better using your cell phone with a decent set of buds. Case in point, and I'll argue with one or all: Anyone pushing 50+ should have been checked and done by now, and I could tease mercilessly those who claim otherwise... BTB, I hope you've gotten your gear off the floor; just common floor dust isn't what you bought them for. Get a stand of some sort, unless you need to touch your toes a lot....*teasing* A little cable control with some zipties will improve the 'look'...some will claim that having ac cords wound into the signal paths of your ic's and the speaker cables (nice fat ones, tho'..👍😎 ) isn't rational and may cause subtle interference that's easily ducked by separation. Try to ditch the plug strip, and Yes, amp to the wall... Drivers farther apart....a pair of my diy omnis' can give me a 'sound stage', but they're meant to be desktop drivers with a small sub.... Go forth an conquer... Pardon my apparent crankyness.....I was woke up this AM by our 27# dog 'bunny-hopping' 6' onto our bed and landing on me...thought the wife had tripped and fell in some fashion (but the impact weight was wrong *L*). "....abolish Monday mornings and Friday afternoons...." Cheer up, all above (except the aids) shouldn't cost more than you might spend on anything else this week....😏 Good variable factors, J |
If your high-frequencies are hard to hear, you may be in need of hearing aids; they can be very expensive at a regular audiologist, but Costco has the previous year's TOTL models available for about $1500 US. I've been wearing hearing aids for over 20 years, and what a difference they make in hearing music! |
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Invest in a measurement mic @andy2
This - MiniDSP UMIK-2 and use the Moving Mic Method and that should give you an RTA of your space from your seated position and should give you an idea of how your speakers are coupling with the room and how that is affecting your guitar bite and vocal presence loss. I think you'd find the 800Hz to 3kHz recessed when you do this assessment and that should correlate to the guitar bite loss |
OP,when I posted my reply ( first reply in thread) I hadn't seen that HORRIBLE power strip you've got there..I do agree with others that is is possible this could be the culprit...Do yourself a favor & at least spend a couple hundred $ & get a decent APC or Furman brand power conditioner/surge suppressor!!! |
Attention to setup detail as described by @mrdecibel is critical to optimizing SQ. I would start with his recommendations. Your speakers are known to be musical but without the extended high end of others. Therefore, your observation on treble bite is part of the design intent compared to let’s say Magico which bites sharply. This is not a criticism for it is personal preference. I did not see any description of listening position. I have found your speakers to require a listening at least 8-9 feet from the front of the speakers for the bass and treble to integrate. That is why I never purchased them since my room requires a closer listening position. The wooly sound quality with lack of presence may be an integration problem. Speaker placement and room treatment are also key in achieving a balanced frequency response. I would experiment with distance from side and back walls, toe in, rake angle. Focusing the drivers at ear level and toward your listening position may increase presence. There is a door very close to the right speaker. This may give bass and dynamic “suck out”. I do not know of a better way to describe it and I awaite the comments, but as the sound wave progresses out the door it is not moved forward toward the listening position. Is that a heater or air conditioner between the speakers? If off, it may be a good thing acting as a defuser but when on, I am sure all level of detail is masked. Finally, go to a good Otolaryngologist and get a hearing test if you feel your high frequency hearing has diminished. My wife asked me to go. The physician’s conclusion was selective hearing rather than physiological. Good luck. |
PS. Is that a hardware store grade power strip//surge protector? Make sure is is rated for the current draw of all equipment hooked up to it simply from a safety perspective, and this may be affecting sound quality by limiting current below demand, of slowing change in current on demand. At a minimum replace it with an audiophile grade power strip/surge protector as soon as possible. If possible, purchase a good power conditioner or regenerator. I prefer conditioners. If you are in an area where there are noisy mains, conditioners are recommended. If in an area with frequent voltage fluctuations, regenerators are recommended. |
It's a bit confusing as I've always heard that thiels required careful setup as they tended to have a hot top end if not careful. There is a thread entitled "Thiel Owners" which has been running forever with about 14,000 posts under the "speakers" topic. One or two of the posters still sell Thiel speaker components and I believe are related to Jim Thiel. There I believe you will receive additional excellent advice. It's the place to be. Are you sure that your tweeters are operating at full steam?
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@jetter You are correct that some find the Theil aluminum dome tweeter to be “hot”. Its frequency balance is extended up to my ears when I was considering both the 2.4 and 3.4 designs. But, to my ears and others, there is a lack of air on top. So, some do not like the hot Theil metal dome treble. Others like me feel the extension that creates the feeling of air is missing. Bottom line is something is wrong with the system or setup if there is no “bite” as posted by Andy. |
The primary message of my post was to let @andy2 know that he would probably obtain the most on point recommendations from the "Thiel Owners" thread, here:https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thiel-owners-2?highlight=Thiel%2BOwners . Dedicated Thiel owners, and people who I believe worked with Jim Thiel and still sell components (if not speakers (?)) and from occasionally visiting the thread seem very generous with their knowledge. |
@squared80 based and correctly reasoned response |