For classical music lovers best amp for large orchestral forces?

Since the OP likes the Pass XA25 tube-like midrange, GanFET amplifiers maybe an ideal fit as it would give more power, otherwise a giant tube amp

Or, simply try a SS amp since his tube pre may be enough.

We are late to the party on this post but I wanted to share this because Audionet is not a household name.   

We picked up the Audionet line last summer and it has done nothing but impress the heck up of me. This is just my opinion, but I’m putting this on this blog so other can consider Audionet.  Especially, if they are trying to get the very best out of your full symphonic recordings.

Why Audionet?

It’s extremely detailed, yet musical, (you need that detail in these types of recordings).

It provides a holographic sound stage rivals the best in tube gear. Think VAC Statement gear and imagine kettle and snare drums seeming to be 20 feet behind the speakers.

Its ability to start and stop the speakers on a dime is crazy. 

Add in: High bandwidth, impressive slew rates and some of the highest damping factors in the industry and this adds up to really good listening for all music, but especially large complex orchestral passages.

Try to check them out at a show or a dealer near you, I don't think you will be disappointed. 

The future of hi quality power amplification at sensible prices is here: I have a LSA Voyager 350 GaN amp. ~500 wpc++ @ 4 ohms (MSRP is a mere $3000). A couple days ago I spun Ernest Ansermat (London);  Rimsky Korsokov's Scheherazade. Played really big, especially after treating all my connections with Mad Scientist Graphene Contact Enhancer

But shouldn’t 89dbs with the proper amp be able to comfortably handle large symphonic forces? They really are wonderful speakers.

Although I put together the setup for jazz and baroque, JC 1 monoblocks driving KEF LS50 Metas augmented with a pair of KEF KC62 subs prove surprisingly credible at portraying Mahler’s 2nd. I’ve been surprised that I prefer the sound with an Ayre K-5xeMP preamp to that with the JC 2. I plan to replace the two JC 1s with a stereo Ayre V-5xe as a decluttering effort. I predict the dynamic range will be entirely adequate.

db

I dunno...   Marantz Ruby PM KI perhaps?  not super pricey

A class A amp that has very good current capability and is stable into very low impedances is hard to beat (and often, to pay for).

I use a pair of amps that put out 160 W into 8 ohms and 500 W into 1 ohm.

@roxy1927 I hope you've sorted out by now that the mismatch between the amp and speaker is the problem and not any of the components otherwise. If you like the sound of the amp at lower volumes, If I were you I would consider a speaker that is easier to drive and by that I mean a lot easier to drive. By about 10dB or so- something in the upper 90s instead of the upper 80s.

Then you won't be pushing your amp into clipping, which is the source of your 'compression'. Also, more efficient speakers have less thermal compression and so sound more dynamic on that account.

The PS Audio M1200 Mono Blocks (Class D/ tube hybrid?) are about $6.5K and I believe they have a buy/try option. Their BHK 250 also has same option. affords in home audition.  Cambridge Audio mono blocks are also winning people over.

Hi

What power cord are you using on the amp? Thanks!  
 

joe

The ones with low distortion that also have plenty of power and dynamic headroom.  Take your pick!

Hi @roxy1927 - a lot of good suggestions here and I’m not sure the amp is the source of compression, but the obvious upgrade is a bigger Pass amp. Even the smallest of the XA line, the XA30.8, should provide more headroom but if you favor realistic levels you may want to try the Class AB X line which is not quite as sweet but has more headroom. 
 

Bryston 4B3 is another good choice with tons of power but it won’t be as detailed and sweet as your Pass. re: Benchmark I haven’t heard it but have a fellow violinist friend who swears by his.

I have another left field suggestion: a Class D amp like the Legacy iV2. It might not click for you or your system - many really don’t take to Class D and I suspect it’s because of specific system interaction - but I found it to be even more transparent than a Pass XA30.5 and Bryston 4B3 as well as another Class A amp, way more powerful and fatigue-free than anything else and shockingly competitive with my Reference Gryphon amplification. In your price range and with your desire for more dynamics, it’s my strongest recommendation. 
 

Cheers,

TAWW

For less money the Jeff Rowland Group's Rowland 125 amp handles 4 ohm loads with ease. Transparency with great finesse for price under $4k. 

Perhaps it’s the efficiency of my GoldenEar Triton1 speakers that are at play.

Its a remarkable amp though.

@McCarthy. Well said. 

The Benchmark is very inexpensive. In the world of high end audio one asks what is going on? I'm not doubting you I'm just thinking wow.

Dear @roxy1927 : " I have been thinking to matching with the arc... ". Well that’s an alternative but for me not the " rigth " one because an amplifier must be matched, first than all , with the speakers: period.

In that sense one great alternative are the JC 1+ monoblocks that are a true challenge even against CH or any other top amplifier ( D'Angostino, Boulder, ML, SimsAudio, Gryphon, etc. ) and the JC 1+ was/is designed by a extremely well regarded electronic designer that’s is John Curl.

Take a look here and I can tell you that you can’t go wrong with and that in the future you will not need to " look " for a different amps. You can be sure that the JC 1+ can outperforms almost all the " names " posted by other gentlemans:

https://parasound.com/jc1+.php

Your call.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

I listen to classical music 90% of the time and am a retired classical musician. ‘The amp I use is the Benchmark AHB2.
It produces a room filling realistic orchestral sound, yet is greatly detailed.
I highly recommend it.

Luxman. http://www.luxman.com/product/detail.php?id=18#spec

https://www.danielhertz.com/daniel-hertz-products/m11-amplifier

@ghdprentice . Great. Happy listening.

@runwell

Well, actually I have both the REF 160s and the REF 160m monoblocks. To be honest, I don’t own them… but have had them for over four months. My dealer lent them to me… well, until he needs them. I have been listening to them for so long at this point I just state the status quo. Both are shown in some of my system photos.

The difference. The monoblocks have a slightly greater air and maybe a very small amount of impact. However, this is a very early production model of the REF 160m with low hours, and it is likely ARC tweaked them a bit to improve the sound in the ensuing production runs, so if you bought a new pair they might sound a bit better. The REF 160s actually looks cooler. Until the REF 320m was released I said, if I was buying the 160 again I probably would have gotten the monos. For one reason with mono blocks you can locate them right next to your speakers and use a really short speaker cable… which gives you a big performance gain.

If getting an ARC REF 160 is a stretch for you… then definitely get the REF 160s and I would not feel like I was missing anything. I tried Cardas Clear beyond vs Audio Quest Hurricane power cords… and the difference the Hurricane brought to my 160s was notably greater than the difference in the sound between the 160s and the monoblocks. Also, I brought the 160s performance a bit higher by adding isolation under it.

Also on speaker impedance. My speaker impedance is 4 ohms… no trouble driving my speakers to crazy high volumes in triode mode… 70wpc.

I am a proud and delighted owner of AGD Audions.

In 50 years at this, I have never heard anything like them.

A clear window into the music. Classical is amazing. So much air and separation between instruments. So sweet violins. 
And now there is the $5500 Tempo stereo AGD. Said to be very, very much like the Audions.

And then we now have the Atma-Sphere Class D monos. I don’t know for sure but believe them at the level of the AGD or beyond. 
Ralph, a designer of great tube amps for 50 years, has actually said that tube amps are now on “life support”. That we now have solid state Amos that are as organic and lovely as the best tube amps with greater detail and bass.

Both AGD and Atma are 100 watts  into 8 ohms and 200 into 4.

ARC amps have been developing their designs for many decades and their current amps are also superb. But much more pricey and, perhaps, more “traditional”.

@ghdprentice  Good to know you upgrade from 160s to 160m now. is that big improvement?

Lots of advise.  I would add a couple subs.  That takes a load off speaker and amp.  

Amps from Coda and Pass will do the job.  I go by how heavy they are but Class D broke that rule.  The tube recommendations are good also.

I have an Xa25 with a passive preamp from Khozmo playing Crites speakers, think Klipsch Cornwall.   With two subs I have yet to play anything that sounds compressed.  Including massive hits on a tympani or an electronic bass.  Good luck.

One can always use another Mahler 2. I will check it out. I'm afraid the arc 160m is something I can't do. Maybe someday...

The Parasound Halo JC5 does it for me with both low level and powerful complex loud classical crescendo's with an iron fist grip and a playful nature between the two speakers with 3d imaging  .  Ivan Fisher's Mahler's 2nd from Channel Classics is my go to for my ultimate test of my system after any additions.

jjss49

Yes I have come across many good things said about AGD. I just was interested in knowing how it compared to the xa25 and people knowing my equipment how it might fare.

It’s also helpful to know you had the xa25 twice which means you found it a very fine piece of equipment yet you now use arc and the AGD. The arc75se is a piece of equipment people love yet as somebody noted it is not difficult to come across. Too good to be true in terms of maintenance?

That’s why the AGD new might be a real possibility considering its price. I like Pass enormously and I would have confidence in buying their product used such as possibly the 250.8 or even .5 which might give me the slam and wide open space that I find lacking in the xa25 with my new arc.

And then there is the Audio Research Reference 160m... but is it very expensive? I will have to look it up.

@ghdprentice is totally correct.  TRY it if you do not believe us.

Regarding your box speakers, at the same time, ask your dealer to substitute a pair of Magnepan speakers for these and see if the orchestra does not move into your room with you.

Make sure they are set up CORRECTLY for YOUR ROOM and get back to us and let us know.  You will be blown away!

Classe seems to make a nice amp rated to 2 ohms. The delta is the stereo version, or they have a monoblock, which is a bit more expensive. Also, I’ve heard belles, which is actually power modules.com. Although they don’t have a lot of watts, they got tons of amperage, which is what low impedance speakers need. And the amp was very crisp sounding. That’s just my 2 cents. 

Denafrips Apollo. 
I’m super interested in one.

@roxy1927 

yes i love that you want to hear the musical experience that is orchestral playing. Great ears in an orchestra is always being deferential to what voices need to emerge. It isn’t always by any stretch the conductor that brings this out. It is more frequently the musicians that are sensitive. The only system I have heard that totally brought that to me as what I experience on a daily basis is CH precision. Especially the L1 pre amp. Dennis Davis misrepresented me in his review as what I heard in his room is what I heard on stage.  What it did was show the handoffs in the winds, the inner voices of the strings vs, just the 1st violin melodie etc. one should never hear an out of balance orchestra. Never to much timp or brass or 1sts melodie. It all has to work in synchronicity. So hard to get through a system. For example Concertgebouw hall or Szell hall in Cleveland or Berlin hall which are different or Suntory hall in Japan. These are tremendous halls all eclipsing Carnegie hall in my opinion. Balance is the key in orchestral. Never any voice dominating. In my opinion if bass is heavy or timp or organ etc, than it is improperly set up and not accurate. For example i auditioned the s-200 it is totally and completely nothing like the S-400 series 2. Totally different animal. Nothing similar there. Thanks again for letting me chat.

On another forum somebody went from a xa25 to an AGD Audion. Affordable and physically manageable Anybody have experience with these?

op - the search bar above is your friend... just search and you will find 3-4 recent, well populated threads on alberto’s agd’s -- plenty of info to sate your curiosity

i personally have audions, as well as numerous arc tube amps, including the ref 75, as well as having the pass xa25 (twice actually, in the past 2 years, as i changed speakers) - as excellent as it is, the xa25(s) are gone while arc and agd’s i have kept...

No, but they are certainly getting universally positive reviews and have the added benefit of being easily upgradeable by the owner when new and improved tech inevitably comes down the road. 

On another forum somebody went from a xa25 to an AGD Audion. Affordable and physically manageable Anybody have experience with these?

My Raven Silhouette is a tube amp and drove my difficult Raidho C3.0 with ease. 
I listen to a lot of large scale symphonies. I have tried 6 different amps and the Ravens won out. I also had ARC VT80SE and they were great with easier speakers like the Focals Electra 1038BEs, Tyler linbrook, usher mini dancer, but struggled with sopra 2 and Raidho  

NAD C298 was laughably bad. Tried it due to accolades everywhere. Can’t believe magazine reviews.  
 
I might be selling the Ravens to go with SET due to a high sensitivity speaker change. 
They never come up for sale because the actual owners hold on to them. 

I don’t believe in magic. A 25W/ch amp no matter how good, will not reproduce large orchestral crescendi through an 89 dB speaker convincingly.  If you have a superb tube preamp (you have!), you want a transparent amp with a large current capacity that can deliver into a 5 Ohm load. Dali designs their line to be benign loads… it’s a core tenet of their philosophy you can read in any of their white papers. If you are a he-man with a large budget, and no social conscience, get a Boulder, Soulution, or other similar over-engineered mammoth. If you prefer not to waste money or natural resources, get a Purifi Class D amp. NAD M23 is a starting point. 

@roxy1927,

I will also read up on bi-amping as that might be cheapest of all.

This just came to mind! See the article below by JBL about BI- AMPING.

FWIW: All amplifiers produce more distortion in lower impedances then higher impedances.

Mike

You probably need more power: try to increase your budget and increase the WPC.  200-400 WPC for starters

All you guys recommending tube amps, do you know that the OP’s speakers have a stated NOMINAL impedance of only 5 Ohms?  I haven’t been able to find more detailed measurements, but given that I’d have to think the minimum impedance likely reaches well below 4 Ohms somewhere in the frequency range.  Could something like an ARC Ref75SE (an amp I lust after BTW) perform optimally or provide enough juice on demanding recordings played at higher volumes with this kind of load?  I don’t know the answer, but on the surface it does not seem like an optimal situation. 

I have a Pass XA25 and Audio research 75SE. I listen to both amps every week. When compared to the XA25 the Audio Research has a wider sound stage, more detail and a cleaner background. When compared to the Audio research the Pass gives a warmer presentation and has stronger bass. I second the recommendations to look at the newer Audio Research amps.

Try to find Plinius SA 100 , or Mark Levinson 332, 333.

"What about an ARC 75SE…? They come on the used market often and it may give you an opportunity to see if the upgrade to an 80s or 160s is worth it…? "

I would shy away from any product that often comes on the used market! This likely happens for a reason, e.g., there are issues with it.

Ask you local dealer if they have an amp for you to audition. Or check out amps from some online companies that offer trial periods. Some offer up to 45 days which should be plenty of time to make a decision. SPL amps look interesting. Good luck.

It might be your Epicon 8’s are the problem.  A Trio is easy for most systems to reproduce, but the more things a speaker has to reproduce, the harder it is, especially at higher levels. 
 

BTW, Congratulations on the Ref 6se.

All the best.

Thanks very much for all your suggestions. I had the VTL S200 a while ago and I loved the sound but I found it a bit temperamental and I found dealing with the company not the easiest thing in the world. They do make a wonderful product. But it is a pleasure dealing with arc and pass.

I have been thinking about matching it up with arc but I am a bit leery of matching it up with used tube equipment as opposed to solid state as a used tube unit I bought had a lot of problems. So I bought this arc pre new. Therefore it used up quite a bit of my budget.

Still the 75 and 150 sound wonderful...

I will also read up on bi-amping as that might be cheapest of all.

I appreciate hearing from a musician like dancarlson10 because there is among certain classical music lovers the idea that a person who truly loves it should not be so much into their sound system as it is the music and performance that count. While this is very true a great sound system makes it all the more sweeter and emotionally involving at least for me. Also I've as well felt how a system handles large symphonic forces is the true test. If there is transparency, layers of sound, depth and the creation of a beautiful tapestry all other kinds of music fall happily into place whether it be rock, folk or jazz.

Thank you again.

ghdprentice is giving you the right info. I used to sell Arc stuff and the best symbiotic relationships were Arc connected to Arc. Either the Ref 75 or 150 will do you quite nicely.

My next amp is coming from Odyssey!  Best deals ever ... yes, ever

I love the xa25 and the int25 but I didnt like them for classical. They fell apart very quickly when turned up to even moderate listening levels. GI really enjoyed the gsi75 and LM 845-premium were incredible- especially with classical. You had mentioned you have a pre so youre shopping for seperates - that being said one of my favorite amps, and you can find them used for about 4k, is the magnus audio ma-400 - a simply incredible amp. I regret selling it to the day. I had a tube front end on it and Joshua Bell has never sounded better at high volumes in my room. Best of luck in your search!!! 

@jomonhifi good call , the OP’s budget should also take him into used Ref150 se territory Viz