For anyone who moved from tubes to solid state — a question

When I first decided to replace my 3 way, 12" Fisher speakers for my Fisher quad system, I went to our local dealer in Boca Raton, and discovered Audio Research.  As a grad student, I was only fascinated, but not able to buy it.  They also sold the big Magnaplanars and Luxman.  For mere mortals like me, they had Phase Linear and Advent.  I bought four Advents, and  later replaced the Fisher quad with a Phase Linear 400, which really rocked with these stacked speakers.  I never ceased admiring Audio Research, and have heard their newest mono tube amps that require their own HVAC system.  Audio emporium's "museum"  lists my Audire amps as having "gargantuan bass", but these giant Audio Rsearch amps would still be my dream if I lived in Alaska, even for the bass.

@danvignau 

point taken

you are not a dedicated audio research tube amp lover unless you listen wearing a racing cool suit :)

Luckily, my tube amps are in a basement space that's always cool. Even when it was 100 degrees outside, things were fine. I agree with the issue of not warming up a room, though. If I was upstairs, I think a solid state would be a good backup for those warm summer months. At least for the power amps.

The best tube amps from Audio Research require an A/C system for the listening room.  Tubes are finicky.  If you want to hear great musical reproduction, all of the time, stick to really good trannys. 

Looking closer at those TRL 200,400,800 amps, now I think I better understand what was meant earlier around "maintenance", and  "event" when firing them up.  Wow, that's some array of output tubes... 

Certainly makes for a case of owning a backup SS amp for non-critical listening times or non-winter months :) 

That sounds like a truly dream system.

There is a guy on another forum that biamps with the 400's and the 800's into a pair of apogee full range.

Hello invalid, My experiences with Tube Research Labs (TRL) date back quite a few years starting with the “Dude” preamp and a pair of GT200 monos which I still use today. I have also owned the Stereo 100 . I have fellow TRL owners that have been friends / listening buddies for as many years and they each own the GT 400’s.   Originally equipped with KT88’s all the TRL’s are flexible with output tubes as they were essentially “overbuilt” by design (and literally their construction as well) such that the KT150 or KT120 are the current ‘go to’ tubes for each of us. The 150’s ( my choice) add about a 50% increase in output power over the ‘88’s and the KT120’s not quite that but still noticeably above the 88’s.    I am also an “Apogee guy” and the vast majority of my own system has revolved around either [rebuilt] Divas or Duettas. My friends have run their 400’s into plenty over the years as well including a variety of Sound Labs including A1’s, A3’s, Ultimate 1’s and 2’s, Focal Grand Utopia BE’s, Nova  “” “”” as well as Martin Logan CLX’s and more. 
  As for the 800’s... that’s a whole other story. I’ve never heard them but my friends have. Incredible. 

Lissnr do you have the big 400 monos or the bigger 800 monos? How is the bass with those compared to the krell monos?

I think 77jovian basically hit the nail on the head... it’s the ‘labor & time involved’ with tube amps that are the most dissuading factors to tube amp listening. My TRL monos are best described as big, heavy, hot, multi-tube high powered monsters ... they need time, love, and attention and are the best sounding amps I’ve ever heard drive most anything. Listening to them is “an event”.
When I want to catch a “quick hour” or so it’s “Not Applicable”.... hence the need to rotate monthly (or thereabouts) with my flick-of-a-switch SS amp.. a pair of Krell FPB 350 MC monos. They give me 90% of the tubes plus the SS virtues as well and the transition takes me 20 minutes a month or so to do. I wouldn’t want it any other way. ( Speakers are rebuilt Apogee Duettas...). 

@krelldreams Thanks for sharing. You say you went "back to tubes" but the main amp you mention is a hybrid, no?

Wise remarks thanks....

This may not *exactly* answer the question, but I thought it was relevant to the spirit of the conversation: I’ve used and owned dozens of different amplifiers (tube, ss, and hybrid) with a variety of speakers over the years. My primary speakers have (almost) always been Magnepans, though I’ve had plenty of cone/horn speakers to play with as well. I started out with solid state amps, tried tube amps, went back to ss, but have returned to tubes. *Some* tube amps have a looser bass response, and *some* ss amps are overly etched and coarse sounding. Maybe even *most*. But after trying different types of amplifiers with a variety of speakers (but primarily Maggies), I own only tube amps now. They (the ones I’ve kept, at least) just do something special handling the signal that is missing with the ss amps I’ve used. My current main amp is a Music Reference RM-200.. and honestly, my Maggies have never sounded better... So for ME, with my choices of music, at my chosen volume level, and my speakers.. I prefer tubes. The important qualification is *my music*, *my speakers*, etc. I don’t think this is something that one listener can answer for another. I just wanted to share my own journey and conclusion (for now, lol). There are going to be trade offs with every scenario, and one has to choose which combinations meet one’s own expectations. In my opinion, of course. 

Yes, on owning both type amps.

+1 What decooney says.  On the nose!

Having a SS amp as a backup puts the convenience back for me. 

I loved the sound of my tube gear.  I put up with the inefficiency, meaning the furnace-like heat.  I began to wear down, though, from the cost of re-tubing and once having to ship the amp back to the manufacturer for repair when a tube blew up.  But I finally decided to move to solid state when I realized how often I was not listening to my system.  I never turned it on unless I had an hour or more to listen...took a while for it to warm up and sound it’s best, and I was concerned about shortening tube life by switching on and off for short intervals.  Got a half hour before we leave the house?  Forget it, no music.  Want to hear that one song a couple times you’re trying to learn on the guitar?  Forget it, no music.

My solid state gear sounds great and I listen to it much more than my tube system.  Solid state fits my life better.

I switched back to solid state because it produced better clarity. That’s important if you like large symphonic works with lots of subtle detail. Tubes smeared the detail

It’s worth pointing out that the tubes "you" were using smeared the detail, but that’s certainly not the the case  universally with all tubes ....in many cases its just the opposite with good examples of tube amps. One of the down sides of tube amps is that they do need to be maintained and monitored, and if not, the result can be less than optimal. That, and not all tube circuits are good tube circuits, and not all tube circuits are a good match with all speakers.

It really comes down to preference and system compatibility; my 25 watts Triode KT88 is way more resolving and transparent than my 18 Watts Class A SS and this is at normal listening levels; the clarity is just amazing and I could not believe that the Class A SS was masking that much detail...

It’s hard to produce the dimensionality and musicality of tubes even though a tube pre and SS will get you in the realm but it still does not check all boxes for many tube fans, to include myself 😄

Wig

It's always interesting reading when designers work very hard to make solid state and hybrid amplifiers to "sound like a tube amp". 

While I like and rotate both, when its time to simply become most engaged listening to the music, its all tube.  

Take something like the Benchmark AHB2 noise and distortion is below audibly of humans

Yes- what is happening here is that this amp has enough feedback to sort things out. This value tends to be north of about 35dB. By 'sort things out' I mean that the feedback value is so high that it can compensate for the distortion caused by the application of the feedback (which is what causes brightness in many solid state amps going back 50 years); its an impressive accomplishment.

I switched back to solid state because it produced better clarity. That's important if you like large symphonic works with lots of subtle detail. Tubes smeared the detail

This IMO is a general question as it does not apply to all amps SS or Tubes.  My old Lafayette tube amp will probably out perform most SS amps. My Class A amp sounds different and each has advantages the other does not.  I prefer this tube amp myself but it is a monster weight wise.  I build a hybrid power amp tube input and bi-polar transistor output.  It is a point-to-point wired amp using customer transformers, chokes, top resistors and capacitors.  You cannot find another amp build like this.  It sounds like a combined SS & Tube amp.

@mglik - maybe a true Class A amp would come close.

Happy Listening.

Distortion is what causes solid state amps to be bright and harsh.

Distortion is what causes solid state amps that measure as bad as tube amps to be bright and harsh. Take something like the Benchmark AHB2 noise and distortion is below audibly of humans. No tube amp can come close to it and very few SS amps. 

Good design is distortions controls....Tube or not....

What did I give up? Distortion.

Distortion is what causes solid state amps to be bright and harsh.

...and then there's the paradigms of amp choice and the speakers it drives....

There's been a lot of waxing wonderous of 'this' driving 'that'...and it generally is tied to the tube v. silica...which, is really actually rather special, imo..

The SET that can make this driver sing like a lark....but driven by SS type anything will make some prefer to have cellophane crushed around their head....

The SS that makes that driver sound like the sax solo is getting etched into the backside of your skull....but it feeeelss  sooo gooood.  Swap...

...and you'd rather have a root canal anywhere but your ears.

It's real subjective....and even then, subject to your listening den/torture chamber.....

The jury's still out on hybrids as far as I can tell....

The 'Everyamp for Everyone'?  Or the 'Nothing for Nobody'? *L*

A 3 position switch: T/SS/STS ?  Any love/hate/meh relationships out there?  Curious minds are nosy...*S*

We have these two recent statements:

best of breed tube and solid state are very close now, and ever converging

And the opposite claim:

Tubes and SS are a different paradigm. They approach producing music from different perspectives. My understanding is that tubes are a more visceral experience and SS more intellectual.

Thing is both of these can be true. Depends on the amps. People can jump and complain but the thing is some tube amps measure as good as SS amps and some SS amps measure as bad as tube amps. The traditional "tube sound"  smoothness is due to the harmonics they distort. It has a pleasant sound that most people enjoy especially with analog. That digital "glare" some complain about is because we're used to hearing the distortion of vinyl and tape played through tubes and think somehow that's the way music should sound. If someone thinks digital glares or is hard edged and difficult to listen to for long have a 3 piece jazz ensemble in your living room and listen to the sax or trumpet and tell me about glare or next time you're in a concert hall listen carefully to the violins and flute/piccolo section. So to cut to the chase to me music sounds more real, instruments naturally have ringing and glare and good neutral SS reproduces it better. 
What did I give up? Distortion. 

I will say 20 series Ayre amps are super great SS also, very liquid, very musical, harmonically dense...

imagine an easy load no bizare phase angles, gentle slope filters speaker with power factor corrected feed forward amp below 100 hz with 11 bands of analog EQ...amp matched to sub, sub matched to amp, then the high pass goes to a hybrid amp with tube front end, liquid cooling for rock solid bias ( think that thru ), bipolars in a cyclotron floating ground output and a bunch of other neat tricks of amplifier supremely matched to speaker load and sensitivity..

Vandersteen 7 speaker and Vandersteen 7 amp

you can get close for $30k with Quattro and Model 5 amp

as othersstated, but i will paraphrase, unfair advantage when you can purpose design an amplifier for the load, and in this case split the load 

Like someone else already said here, ZOTL technology seems to be the way to go without any negative  claimed by the 2 camps against each other, in the tubes versus S.S. debate....

I want one and i accept donation.... :)

I think we've reached the logical end of this topic, regarding the big picture.

We have these two recent statements:

best of breed tube and solid state are very close now, and ever converging

And the opposite claim:

Tubes and SS are a different paradigm. They approach producing music from different perspectives. My understanding is that tubes are a more visceral experience and SS more intellectual.

Be that as it may, I'm still interested in what someone specifically gave up in order to gain with SS. With as many variables controlled as possible. But maybe this well is run dry.

Tubes and SS are a different paradigm. They approach producing music from different perspectives. My understanding is that tubes are a more visceral experience and SS more intellectual.

This type of generalization is common in a variety of audio debates, but not really true. The right SS setup can be emotionally very engaging, and tubes can leave you cold in the wrong setup.

When I listen to my tube based system, I get emotionally carried away. When I listen to my SS system I get interested. For me, emotional is more true to the essence of the music.

My Sansui must be a "tube" amplifier without me knowing it....It does not sound only detailed but visceral also and warm....

:)

I truly think that the differences that a good embedding can make is over the relative differences betweeen Tubes and solid state.....But i dont have experience with high end tubes amplifiers then....... :)

It is just that i cannot think that my sound from the sansui is in any way like some describe S.S.

Perhaps some dont know it Sansui takes 25 years to reproduce exactly one against the other their best tube amplifier with their best solid state.... Their goal was to reproduce the tube amp Sansui in their Sansui S.S..... That was a complete success.... I dont have the link to the video tough no more....

Instructive to understand a difference that only relatively exist not by virtue of an eternal difference in design but by accident and tech history...

A good embed S.S. amplifier and a good embed tube amp. are on par.....

The question must be: is it reallly rightfully embedded mechanically, electrically, and acoustically? The question is not wich is better a S.S. amp or a tube one.... It is relative to their quality/price ratio and finally to their embeddings in the system, room, and house.....Theorically we can design a S.S. amplifier to sound like a tube amp, Sansui has proved it long ago....

Correction: the Matrix 801 Series 2 speaker is nominal 8 Ohms (not the 6 Ohms that I had reported).
Specifications:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-matrix-801-series-2-loudspeaker-specifications
With 3 minima of about 6 Ohms.
Measurements:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-matrix-801-series-2-loudspeaker-measurements
Perhaps this helps explain how the new tube amps sound so great with them.

Anyhoo, for the record.

I learned a lot from my thread, “Is there a SS amp that can satisfy a SET guy?”. The basic answer is no. Tubes and SS are a different paradigm. They approach producing music from different perspectives. My understanding is that tubes are a more visceral experience and SS more intellectual.
When I listen to my tube based system, I get emotionally carried away. When I listen to my SS system I get interested. For me, emotional is more true to the essence of the music.

Anyone can buy a Dennis Had tube amp for 1500 bucks or so...bought mine slightly used a few years ago for around 1100. Score one for the Regular Guy.

@stringreen

you called it right on SQ string...

best of breed tube and solid state are very close now, and ever converging, because they both provide superb frequency extension, transparency, drive and imaging - they have just come from very different baskets of strengths and weaknesses

but stuff at this level is quite expensive still for the regular guy

Can't correct it now, but I meant that my OP did NOT use the trigger words.

One thing this forum has taught me is that there are many paths to the top of the mountain (of good sound)  -- and *also* that there are different mountains!

Let 1000 flowers bloom.

I used to be on the Hamster Wheel, running in place between all tube systems, hybrid systems, as well as all SS

I have been very happy, giddy even, with my EVS 1200 class D driven by my Oppo 105 with linear power supply, 110/220 jumper bypass, and IEC upgrades; no preamp needed. Lots of $$$$ saved


You would be amazed

"Made in China".  OMG! *L*  Yes, that would launch an entirely separate line of 'discussion'....

It sometimes seems like anything audio that hails from 'the Far East' (to use an old romantic phrase) is suspicious, as the Chinese are born without ears (smooth on both sides!) like proper automatons....🙄

Obviously, that renders them tasteless and unable to discern 'proper audio....*tsk tsk*  The poor devils....

It is astounding how much of the current items that drive civilization forward come from our Chinese breathern.  And that consequence drives them as well, as with nearly all other nation-states...

But, as long as there's a desire to have Ferrari performance at the price of a Yugo....

It's fun to hear so many views and experiences. It's clear that it's not possible to avoid a "this OR that" conversation when it comes to tubes and solid state. That's fine -- Audiogon threads are more frequently like pub conversations than anything else, and that's fun.

Still, I'm glad that my OP use the trigger words "made in China" or there would have been a second sinkhole in the thread! Cheers!

It seems like every time I hear the term "tube sound" as it relates to solid state, it only addresses a perceived softer tonal balance, but misses the "view" into the recording studio that I get from tubes, so it ends up kinda dull.  Inversely, the SS amps that aren't "tubey" sound brighter but without the transparency, which sounds exaggerated to me.  Is it one of those "you don’t know what you’re missing" things if you haven't experienced it, or have SS amps really improved their transparency, (and not just test bench performance)?

What I don’t like about tubes is the high voltage supplies. If something goes badly wrong you can blow up speakers, and if you like Quad ESL's, well, you can end up a lot of KV over-voltage, leaving just about everything dead but the frame. Unless you have really good protection circuits, which aren’t really good for the sound.

So I built very clean SS amps with +/- 25VDC rails. This cannot drive my ESL’s into protection, so I was able to disconnect the protection circuit and improve clarity considerably.

Maybe there are better amps out there, but the system of amp-speaker, I suspect, is as good as anyone’s. At least, anyone who doesn’t have access to military or equivalent hardware.

I grew up with tubes. Enjoyed them while that lasted...

SS ’occurred’...initially, laughable. But the technology grew to a level of maturity that first matched, then blew past ’valves’ and their inherint weakness. "Rolling tubes" ought to be a clue, but it’s a hobby.

Ya gots the ’Trads’, the ’SOTAs’, and the Big Middle (or Muddle, if you like)...

The incandescent bulb begot the fluorescent begot the LED.
Each has a longer lifespan and reliabilty of service.
Tube>transistor>integrated circuts>?
Class A>AB>D>?

The one thing we can count on is Change.
Some do...Some don’t...Some like both....or all.

Each still has appeal, it comes down to what you like....like your speakers, your home, your spouse, your f’n underwear for that matter.

You are probably wrong if we speak about quality watts...
It is the amplifier i dream to buy.... It is a complete new recreation of tube amplifier technology...The creator is a physicist...Not only all reviews are glowing one but the tube has a duration very long and no heat....

Think about that, organic sound tube with the detais of s.s. and can be used like a top of the line pre-amplifier...

It is the only amplifier about which i dream for the last years.... My old Sansui AU 7700 is so good i want to be sure to beat it if i buy another amplifier, and this Sansui is hard to beat....

But you are right, if i listen telepathically to you, i never listen to it....

:)

I have not owned any tube equipment, but this discussion reminded me of a video by Sean of zero fidelity (see below) that reviewed the Linear Tube Audio z10.  It is said to combine the best of tubes and the best of solid state in one package.  It is mostly a tube preamp that has a low-power amplifier thrown in.  I don’t know what it sounds like, but getting an integrated amplifier with all of 11-12 wpc into 2 channels, for about $5,000 does not tempt me.  I hear that wattage isn’t the be-all for such products, and Sean said the sound was very good with some low efficiency speakers (but better with high efficiency ones), but I still doubt that such low power could really be all that great at that price.  Of course, I might be wrong.

https://youtu.be/i9QCY5QuuF8

I have a pair of Mcintosh mc- 501 ss mono block amps, in my audio rig. I swapped them out for a pair of Mcintosh mc-2301 tube mono blocks. The tube mono blocks made, the ss mono blocks sound like charlie brown, amps (flat and non three dimensional.) I did not here a change in the bass, but lower midrange had more body.
But be for the swap i thought the 501’s had great 3-d imaging. That is my experience with tube/ss amps. The tube amps are less watts. The speakers are jbl 4435 monitors. :-)

Actually, the traditional tube sound and solid state sound have converged

Small wattage SET amps (2a3, 45, 46, 211) turned me me into an audiophile, but SS pass labs xa30.8 with EAR 868 tube preamp got me off of the SET train and into beautiful hybrid heaven.