if you are patient, you can find a great Shindo in that price range. A few Monbrison and Massetto models (both including a great phono stage) sell here on Audiogon in your prices every year. you won't find a better tube pre. Shindo's are exceptional
in same price range could also get an upper end Air Tight.
but to be honest, the rest of your system is so solid state high powered forward that I have no idea how the high end tube pre will blend with the rest of your gear. might be amazing. might not.
But both Shindo and Air Tight make exceptional tube Pre-amps. Shindo being truly special.
There are others I could suggest. But those are truly amazing.
imho |
might also look at luxman, leben, Conrad Johnson, VAC
all make great tube pre-
Einstein
...... |
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Take a look at AudioNote UK --- it will be at the lower end of their product line - but their components are well worth the price -- if that is too rich for you look at Audio Note Kits Canada |
@smodtactical
I would back up the recommendations for either a Cary SLP-98 or SLP-05. Both are phenominal in my system, running into a Pass XA25, and can be had for less than 5k used.
I had a Rogue RP-5 before the Cary preamps and just like avanti1960 found it to be lacking compared to the Cary preamps with respect to dynamics, tone and timbre in my system.
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I've recently purchased a Backert Labs Rhumba and am using this with a Pass XA 30.8 Absolutely love the combination. I would also consider a Cary. |
invalid I talked to the space tech labs guy and the 1 thing I didn't like he wasn't willing to show me the internals (he claims since he doesn't want people to copy him). Its something I don't like about mcintosh either.
Most audiophiles don't even know what point to point wiring is supposed to look like anyway, they think it's all the internal parts are supposed to be in neat rows, which isn't point to point wiring, it's hand wiring but not point to point. True point to point wiring is almost a lost art very few manufacturers do it. |
i have 5 k hours on my REF5se, zero issues requiring dealer….
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@smodtactical
The Cary SLP-05 is a smooth dynamic performer with a huge soundstage. It tends to be "phatter" and bassier, I really love the sound. The Rogue RH-5 is more neutral and transparent.
@rmdmoore
I owned the Rogue RH-5 before I bought the RP-7. It was a direct comparison. The RH-5 was significantly more dynamic and energetic and was more transparent than the RP-7, which was a disappointment.
I love Rogue Audio and had a cronus magnum ii for years but I have to call them like I hear them.
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A winning circuit design will sound better with cheap parts than a average circuit design with top notch parts.
Really? Ever build anything? There are no new circuit designs. There are only compromises. Just by putting in a V-cap will change the sound of any unit for the better. Audio Note non-magnetic resistors also. Been repairing and modifying and manufacturing components for over 20 years. I am able to hear every component mentioned in these threads. Repair or upgraded most all of them also so I can compare them. Just because a component is made by a so called Tech means nothing. I have repaired or rebuilt those components also. Not all of them are that good. Recently added Manley Steelhead and Tron gear to my experience. Expensive components. Not reference quality. You are comparing manufactured gear from one company to another all made to a price point to make money. Low grade parts and mostly poor to just OK designs. Nothing point-to-point which always sounds better.
Anyone in the NYC - NJ - PA area is very welcome to come hear what things should sound like. You are welcome to bring you own components over to compare.
Happy listening.
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I've heard bad circuit designs with great parts sound bad, I've heard great circuit designs sound great with cheap parts. I agree that a great circuit design with great parts will sound even better, but this forum isn't to sell your services. |
Conrad-Johnson, Cary, AudioNote or McIntosh. Those would be my first suggestions. |
@avanti1960
The Cary SLP-05 is a smooth dynamic performer with a huge soundstage. It tends to be "phatter" and bassier, I really love the sound.... avanti1960, Which 6SN7s are you running in your SLP-05 when you hear the "phatter" and "bassier" sound? I was thinking your preamp came stock with EH. I ask because I can reproduce the same type of sound you describe with my own Cary SLP-98 preamp if I use new re-issue production Tung Sol 6SN7GTBs. As soon as I switch to NOS vintage Sylvania 6SN7s VT231s, or others like TJ Full Music / PSVANE 6SN7s, the top end opens up with more transparency, clarity, smoother detail, no more grain, and that "phatty bass" is no longer there like I hear with the new reissue Tung Sols. |
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Considering this being your first go around at a tube Preamp, the Schiit Freya+ would be a great place to start. The unit can be run in tube, passive or buffered mode. It costs around a grand brand new and has great resale value. Starting here may be a beginning as well as an end point. |
@decooney
I am using nos sylvania 6SN7 GTA from the 50's, not the vt231.
Love the sound, these are reasonable and readily available.
Even with the stock sovtek rectifier but the sound did improve with a nos mullard rectifier. |
I have used the deHavilland Ultraverve 6sn7 based preamp for at least 10 years. Over that time I have had the preamp's designer, Kara Chaffee, mod it with Dueland silver point to point wiring and Dueland premier capacitors. I run this preamp into an ss Bryston 14b3. The 6sn7 tube you choose has a huge effect on the overall sound of your system...as much, or more, than cable choice. I like jazz and I have, for the time being, settled on the RCA 5692 red based 6sn7 for my "sound signature". I highly recommend the deHavilland...a bargain new or used! |
I have used the deHavilland Ultraverve 6sn7 based preamp for at least 10 years. Over that time I have had the preamp's designer, Kara Chaffee, mod it with Dueland silver point to point wiring and Dueland premier capacitors. I run this preamp into an ss Bryston 14b3. The 6sn7 tube you choose has a huge effect on the overall sound of your system...as much, or more, than cable choice. I like jazz and I have, for the time being, settled on the RCA 5692 red based 6sn7 for my "sound signature". I highly recommend the deHavilland...a bargain new or used! |
@invalid - I am NOT pushing my services in these threads. Probably not one person posting on these threads could afford my products and services. I have offered to help people out by offering to build them a superior product that they can afford and cannot find anywhere else. If you think you can find a better product have at it. But for me to take my time to build a point to point wired product using the parts that I offered for around $2K good luck finding anyone to do that for you. I make about $200 building something like that. I have been a member here for 20 years. I have taken my personal time to travel to a homes to help them on my own dime. I am happy to do that for people. I have repaired more components than you have even heard. You are a member since 2016. You have one transaction on Audiogon. You don't even have your system listed. Maybe instead trying to call someone out, you should look to their experience to achieve better results in your system. I bet I have more money invested in parts then you have in your system.
@pfeoffer - excellent choice in a preamp. Upgrade a few resistors and the transformer plus add an AC filter choke and your unit will sound even better.
Happy Listening
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I had a chat with underwood hifi and he is really impressed with the vacuum HE1 (he is a dealer so obviously there is bias). But he found it nearly good as the zesto ultra 2 which is nearly 3x the price and better than PS BHK. So that does have me interested.
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I would check out a pre-owned Conrad Johnson ET-5. It is essentially 1/2 of a CJ GAT1. It listed for $9,500 when discontinued a couple of years ago and are now available for $3,500 to $4,000.
This preamp uses a single 6922 tube, and it's pretty easy on them, too. So, I run a Telefunken 6922. It sounds great with the Siemens 6922 tube, as well.
I love the sound-stage this preamp/tube produces. Perfect width, excellent depth. It doesn't mess with high quality recordings; vinyl or CD's.
This one is a "can't miss." And, no, I am not a dealer. |
CAT, Convegant audio Tech. Great pre with built in phono stage.
Jose |
@liamowen Ya this engineer in our audio discord Sonic Visions loves Conrad Johnson. Says their designs are incredible.
@JG2077 seems like the black path is the CAT to get.
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@smodtactical, see if you can audition the CAT near you. Ask the seller if the unit has been serviced? In one of my systems, CAT replaced an AR3. Excellent suggestions have been provided to you. Good luck and enjoy the search.
Best,
Jose |
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@smodtactical
Sorry...Audio Research Ref3.
Jose |
+1 for GAT
The Shinzo recommendation is a really interesting one. I have never heard one… but read so very much. Shindo has a small but loyal following. I am always drawn to the descriptions. I lived in Japan off and on and knowing the dedication for details and iterative improvements, and esoteric nature of the products is intriguing. But I have never heard of a Shindo in with say a Pass amp and B&W speakers… it sounds like if you go down that path. If I find some extra money sometime I am going to buy one for fun and see where it leads.
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Aric Audio Motherload at just under 5k. 6SN7, dead quiet, variable gain. Very good with my Pass xa25
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Audible Illusions used. Affordable & sounds tube great. Worth a shot! |
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I would check out a pre-owned Conrad Johnson ET-5. It is essentially 1/2 of a CJ GAT1. It listed for $9,500 when discontinued a couple of years ago and are now available for $3,500 to $4,000.
This preamp uses a single 6922 tube, and it’s pretty easy on them, too. So, I run a Telefunken 6922. It sounds great with the Siemens 6922 tube, as well. i am an owner of an et-5 as well, love it for its utterly beautiful, spacious sound and build quality, and the fact it runs a single tube, so tube rolling is effortless and cost effective however, it is well known among owners of this unit that it runs the tube fairly hard (6.3 to 6.4v heater voltage, which is slightly above the spec for a standard spec 6dj8 tube) - so that tube will typically get noisy after about 1 year of regular use there are solutions to this issue but i did not want those folks who may be considering the et-5 to believe that the single small signal tube will last as long as other tube linestages ***************************************************************************************************** as a separate note, to the other post... the audible illusion mod 3a is infamous for being very hard on its tubes, and for not being at all forgiving of even slightly noisy tubes... furthermore their customer service over the years has been spotty at best... that unit sounds lovely when it is working right, but there are some issues/challenges to long term ownership |
The vast majority of Audiophiles donot know what’s inside or the parts quality,did you know on average only 25% of your amp,or preamp cost $ is all that goes into your commercial brand ? The rest overhead and markup , that's why many have their equipment modded .that's how Dan Modwright made it popular.
for tube Gear I have used Radu Tarta one of the best Vacuum tube experts in North America hand built and with Premium parts throughout that is the difference ,and with or without remote which for a top quality resistive remote $400 ,not like most using a cheap $25 Alps volume pot,big loss of fine detail,and transformers and chokes are the key ,Lundahl,and Monolith ,much better precision then lesser capacitor based output stage . In this case built one at a time and 70%of the cost go into the parts ,in name brands it’s just the opposite 30% or less
I have found this out years ago , He Builds low power SET amplifiers, and DHT Tube preamps, only 1 gain stage which is the purist.most have multiple stages. |
has anyone noticed the price of used Shindo preamps?
not even close to the OPs budget- if you can find one. |
+1 Modwright LS100. You can pick up one with optional tube phono stage for 1/2 your budget. I run a McIntosh C500T in my main rig and I am shocked at how well the Modwright 100 performs in my second rig. |
I went through this exercise. Considered all options with budget being secondary.
Ended up going Prima Luna Evo 400 integrated and got it well under 5k.
I have nothing but good things to say about this. I have relatively inefficient speakers (Dynaudio Evoke 50) and it drives the hell out of them. The website is worth a read.
Recognizing this might not be an amp I pass down to my children, for my ears and money, this gives me great pleasure. |
cary SLP98p in your price range even with mods. Have had mine for years and it still warms in the most pleasing manner. I'm run mine with a variety of SS mono-blocks and couldn't be happier. Also I am currently using a superb Cary 200ts DAC as a digital preamp in my office. It has selectable tube and SS stages for the analog outputs and again hooked directly to monoblock SS amps, crazy nice and the 200ts is currently on sale from Cary for $1900. |
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New: Audible Illusions M3B. Best value for the money and meets your budget.
Used: Upper end CJ or Audio Research Ref Series, or SP-10II / SP-11
Vintage: Mac or Marantz
Benefit to used or vintage is the ability to resell for your cost (or maybe a little more). Easy to try then decide if you like it. If not- you can move on to another preamp.
My experience: I own a ARC SP-10mkII and AI M3B. BOTH sound GREAT, with with different virtues.
M3B DEAD quiet- I can not hear it when it is on. Soundstage is wide, deep and detailed. MM Phono stage is excellent. Very natural sound. Dual stepped volume controls sometimes makes exact channel matching difficult. But over time you find the (personal) gain setting that works best.
SP-10mkii Slight noise floor. Excellent phono stage with multiple loading choices. Soundstage is wide, deep and detailed. Overall sound is slightly lush and more tube like than the M3B. May not be as accurate, but I like it just the same, and in some areas it sounds better.
Macro view is your expectations and budget are realistic so that you can explore the sweet spot of the market. |
here's an alternative tact - use tubes in your source rather than the pre.
I'm not sure what pre you are using but keep it and try a Lampizator Baltic #3 dac instead of the Denafrips. It may give you all the tube goodness you are looking for. |
You need to audition the Backert Labs Rhumba 1.3. If $5k is the goal, then go with the Extreme version.
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I couldn't be happier with my Sonic Frontier Line 2. bought used. solidly built. very serviceable - Parts Connection. XLR in and out. dead silent. IR remote. this was my first Tube pre-amp so i can't say as i have any comparison to others. |
New: Audible Illusions M3B
Does this preamp burn through tubes fast like the older model audible illusions preamp did? |
Though I have fond memories of the ARC SP-3 I bought new in 1973, it's sound is definitely of the old-school tube sound of the 1950's and 60's---on the soft and warm side. I doubt restoring one changes that.
A few over-looked tube pre-amps:
My pal Brooks Berdan employed a Hovland SP-100 as his shop's reference pre-amp for years (new it retailed for not much more than your budget), alternating with the 2-box Jadis (for a LOT more money).
The EAR-Yoshino 868L (line stage only) and 868PL (phono and line) are underground cult favorites, both within your budget. Their big brother the 912 is far above that limit, around $12,000 I believe. Art Dudley loved the 912, the only pre-amp he auditioned which caused him to consider replacing his Shindo.
The Atma-Sphere MP-3 is mighty fine, but somewhat limited in it's input and output facilities.
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Wells Audio Commander, level I. End game.
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I’d stay away from some of the very boutique brands. If you decide to move on you may find it hard to sell. If I were you I’d go for Audio Research. It’s well built, is desirable on the used market and sounds terrific! |
I’d stay away from some of the very boutique brands. If you decide to move on you may find it hard to sell. If I were you I’d go for Audio Research. It’s well built, is desirable on the used market and sounds terrific!
Even if the very boutique brands sound way better for less money than the big name brands? |
I’d stay away from some of the very boutique brands. If you decide to move on you may find it hard to sell. If I were you I’d go for Audio Research. It’s well built, is desirable on the used market and sounds terrific! Audio Research made a lot of different preamps. They aren't all the same. I have an LS 26. It's very nice but it's not in my main system. If I had a Ref 5SE or higher, that might be in the main system. I had a Modwright LS 100 in the main system for a long time until I recently replaced it with a "boutique" Herron Audio VTSP-360. It's a keeper. |
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If you listen to records, the CAT Preamps have an excellent phono stage as well as line stage. The only drawback is that the volume control is stepped, but the quality of it is unbelievable. They are built to last. |
Audible Illusions. L3A (which is what I own) or the newer L3B. These are line stage only, that use only 2 6H23 tubes. Or, if you want phono stage included, M3A, or the newer M3B (4 6H23 tubes).
ive owned my L3A now for about 5 years, and have not had one issue. The sound is wonderful, but be advised this is a single ended preamp (RCA only inputs and outputs) there are no balanced inputs or outputs.
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