Fear of volume control

I had the same experience the other day. It didn't just sound better because it was louder -- a familiar phenomenon. It evened out the frequencies -- more balance, more "biff", more soundstage. There are those who talk of less, and to them all I can say is, try "more." ;-)

What I been saying. It is not your imagination. Search Fletcher-Munson Equal Loudness Contours. We like to talk about our ears as if they are microphones, and hearing as if it is something that registers on a meter. Not even close. What those curves are showing is graphical proof that we hear low and high frequencies very differently, and this changes with volume.  

Recording engineers know this. If they were to mix a recording at a low volume level they would have to crank the bass and treble, essentially use a Loudness tone control, to make it sound right. Then if you play it loud at home there will be way too much bass.  

They know sometimes the music will be background and played at different volume levels by different people at different times. They cannot mix for all these different volume levels. What to do?

They know the low volume listening tends to be casual background, while the people really seriously into it are gonna play it louder and do nothing but listen. That is the one who will notice. So they mix for that listener. 

What you just did was finally get into the volume zone that recording was meant to be played at. If you listen closely you will find they all do this. Some records really only sound right when played real loud. Because that is how it was meant to be.

See Jim Smith’s excellent book on Getting better Sound - he covers this topic and much more. 
He is avid audiophile, music lover, recording engineer. Beware he is a listen and measure guy and experienced. 

2-3:00 o'clock-okay for few cuts, but just not healthy for long term  hearing, particularly those among us with confirmed damage.

Fun while it lasts though. The opening of Bach's "Toccata and Fugue and Fugue in D minor" or 2nd movement of the Ludwig V's 9th come to mind.

 Really has a lot to do with a lot of things. Using dac as volume control, may be losing bits, volume pots have sweet spots, I'd say every active component within our systems have sweet spots. Still, I'd say its current supplied to loudspeaker and listening room that are main determinates. Higher current delivery to loudspeakers really wakes them up, louder volumes can energize room in pleasing manner. No doubt more efficient hearing at louder volumes. The quality of recording also has great bearing on energizing room, the quality recording has larger sound stage, more dimensional imaging, greater dynamics. Louder volumes only serve to further emphasize these qualities. You know you have a good system when you can play loud and not suffer any costs, other than damaging hearing and pissing off neighbors.

I find with very quiet preamps the sound is good at low levels too. That is you can hear everything, just quieter. I do a lot of late night listening and low volume listening is something I tried to make work. Not so much now with a great pair of headphones.

There is a right volume level for every recording and when you achieve that volume you will have a magic balance for sure. Another consideration is that there is also a right volume for every room in addition to this and usually they work together pretty well.

find with very quiet preamps the sound is good at low levels too. That is you can hear everything

I agree with you on this, I used to have to listen loud until I got a really good preamp.

@invalid what preamp do you have?

I get the same results as yyzsantabarbara and invalid. I also do most of my listening at lower levels,and the detail is wonderful.  

  I watch for two things: When my hearing maxes out and the music doesn't sound right, or when the listening room is saturated beyond what it can take.
 My hearing has changed in that way over the years and I suspect that it is damage. I can get away with louder volume than usual with headphones though.

Those days of really loud are long gone. As a teen, parents would regularly complain that they could hear my headphones downstairs.

Now,  I find the bulk of my listening is around 75-80 db. Most music can come through nicely at that level, and if listening to solo cello, or unaccompanied vocals, it doesn't seem out of place at that level. Having said that, I was recently listening to some Bach harpsichord at at friends while "testing" speakers at 110db. I made it clear that if the police came, I was going to blame it all on my friend. No way I was going to have a complaint levied at me for listening to that at those levels...

When it's really late and I don't want to disturb anyone, the volume drops a little. But the room is in the basement, and bedrooms on third floor.

And it is has been stated above, volume is very music dependent. Big orchestral pieces, or metal do come across "better" when listened to at appropriate volumes. (Harpsichord being the obvious exception...)

And, in the room as it stands now, anything above 95 to 100db, gets rough sounding as the room is being pressurized to the point of noise.

Now that I think of it, if I want to listen really loud, so I can have the physical impact of the music, suppose I could wear some hearing protection - like I would a a concert. That would be something if the neighbours complain, police show up and I have to explain the logic of my music listening approach...

You guys, I turn mine all the way up just to piss off "the neighbor". I do. I use ear plugs and muffs.

I call all the neighbors EXEPT one and I torture his silly a$$.

He thinks it’s all right to BOOM BOOM into the weeee hours of the morning. Everyone here works or is retired.

He just thinks he can make Boom Boom.. I can knock the meat off the bone if one’s silly enough to stand in front of a MB Column.

I just make sure the rabbit (Junior) and the dog (Bubs) are in the basement.

If his music was worth a crap we would all stop trying to crumble his castle. We ALL take turns, I just help out with a little Mick Mec Magic..

His girlfriend brought me angel food cake, what’s that telling you.. She made it just for me.

So she said.. Let him keep it up.. More BOOM BOOM than he might think.
She likes my blue eyes. I like her.................... Eyes too..

Mercy I need a nitro pill under my tongue. ;-)

IF we could just find you an editor Heavy, there is a book in there… somewhere 

@tomic601 

LMAO! Well done, sir.

Given a well recorded album (no matter the format), a great system will have it sounding good at low volume levels with very good detail of all the music within.  But for a greater entertainment value it's so much better at higher volume levels.  You'll know when you have it too loud.  The position on the volume knob is not a great indicator.  Your ears and good sense should be able to make the best decision.
Great high fidelity is a wonderful thing.

Wow! What a difference. the room shook with the orchestra and organ at full tilt.

Music always sounds better at the normal volume it would be live (if your total system/room can handle it)

Cheers George

party pooper george !! :-)

invalid what preamp do you have?


I have a space tech labs tube preamp. 

@tablejockey 

"2-3:00 o'clock-okay for few cuts, but just not healthy for long term hearing, particularly those among us with confirmed damage."

Not a very bright statement.  2-3.00 o'clock is different on each set up.  What it pushes out is a function of the gain in the system and the efficiency of the speakers.

If you want to warn us about our aural health then please work in decibels, that are universal.

Hello,
There is a lot of truth to all of this. Most preamps have attenuated volume controls. You are adding sound the louder you go. Streamers and DACs are notorious for this. I have a set of -10db RCA adapters for my TT setup just so I can get the volume louder to get the best sound possible. I know that some manufacturers use a variable gain output like Ayre instead of attenuating the input so this is not an issue. Even at very low volume you get full range of sound. I prefer this route so the subs play at the correct volume no matter what source I listen to. So the next time you are listening to Vinyl turn down the gain on the phono preamp and crank the volume on your preamp/ integrated amp. You will be amazed. Just remember to turn it back down before you listen to another source so you don’t blow your speakers. 

I have found that listening at 80-85 dB is where I get everything from most recordings. I have a slip of paper in each of my albums that indicates what level on my amp makes the recording sound the best. Some are at 48 on my Hegel H390 and some are at 56 with many falling in between. I just listen until it sounds the best and then I measure the dB level at my listening position. The average dB is almost always between 80-85.

The loudness switch is a really good tool.

Not only is Fletcher- Munson at work but also the volume the record was mixed at. Every recording has a "right" volume depending. If you play a string quartet at the volume of a rock record the strings will cut your throat. If you under cut the volume of a rock record it will sound dull and lifeless. If you have loudness compensation you have a little more flexibility but still. 

People who shy away from louder volumes generally have systems that start distorting at lower volumes. Distortion is at lower levels registered as volume. Obviously, they enjoy their systems at lower levels thinking that volume hurts. Not true. You can destroy your ears, long before clean music becomes painful. This is why I use a sound pressure meter not wanting to get carried away. Very clean systems with adequate headroom can play deceptively loud. People will try to start a conversation not realizing the other person can't possibly hear them. 

This is why distortion in loudspeakers and powerful amps are so important. Powerful means power relative to the efficiency of the speaker. and and the maximum power the speaker can handle. IMHO as a rule of thumb 105 dB is a reasonable target. So, you figure out the power required to get your speakers to 105 dB then multiply by ten ( to handle transients). This is a reasonable power for your speakers. Every 3 dB doubles the power. I am of the belief the more power the better as in my experience powerful amps have an effortless quality missing in lower powered amps. I have to admit there is probably some psychoacoustics in this as I have never been blinded for this evaluation.  

high quality acoustical treatment is the way to keep the volume levels down. And stay sane.

Increase the dynamic range and reveal the more accurate shape and subtleties of the music --- by removing the noise at the bottom.

Not by cranking the volume levels, a tactic which merely makes it scream over the inherent noise levels in the room, and simultaneously pollute your low level signal subtleties. (you know, the subtleties in dynamics and signal that we are here -in this particular world of audio- to try and resolve)

room shook,

if not exaggerating, that's when Fear of Hearing Damage should set in.

it's worth learning about Fletcher & Munson's discoveries, 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

It has always been poorly: named, implemented, mis-understood.

the use of 'loudness' control actually should be called 'Low Volume Listening'. 'Progressively' reduce the volume and boost the lows and highs so that we hear the content as enjoyably as when it is loud (as you discovered). The 'loudness' controls on vintage equipment did/do just that, much modern equipment skips tone controls, balance, loudness filters ...
....................................

You can easily put this unit with Automatic Loudness Control in front of any featureless equipment:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274870895426?hash=item3fff950342:g:iiEAAOSw0tJg8tiE

The implementation needs to be done so that:

1. all or chosen sources into Chase Unit.

2. Chase RLC-1 default volume level (just unplug it, it goes to defaults). F-M is NOT engaged.

3. Sound System's Volume set at normal listening level. Leave it there.

4. Chase RLC-1 to remotely adjust volume. Up, just less attenuation by the chase unit. When you lower the volume, the Chase unit Automatically begins to progressively implement F-M curves.

thus progressively adjusting for our hearing system's properties. i.e. you still hear the Bass Player in a Jazz group, the highs are still there. You will find the music maintains it's Involving quality, rather than fade to background music.

5. Oh yeah, the Chase unit has remote balance, gotta love that if your system has terrific imaging ability. 

................................

Misunderstood: some people used to defeat the Chase loudness feature, they 'hated' the bass bloat. well, that's because they lowered it into F-M implementation and boosted that correction with the amp's volume, iow, Misunderstood Again. So poorly misunderstood that the feature has disappeared. 

IMO, if you call yourself an audiophile, you ought to fully understand our hearing system and go get yourself some 'Loudness'. And avoid needing to get some hearing aids if possible.

"Not a very bright statement. 2-3.00 o'clock is different on each set up. What it pushes out is a function of the gain in the system and the efficiency of the speakers."

clearthinker-you've provided a not very bright reply. Just going with the theme/spirit  of the OP's post. No system gain details, etc are being discussed. Maybe learn to...never mind.

"If you want to warn us about our aural health then please work in decibels, that are universal."
 
 I get aural health advice from a medical professional, not here.

This point is not intended to stoke the fire of vinyl vs all other media. This is why when you are streaming, using a tape player or cd player and you have the ability to set the output level from the source you set it as high as it goes or very close. I discovered this on a dac I had with built in amp (for headphones). I found the sound stage and openness of the songs were better with dac on 10 preamp volume lower. When needed they were both at 11 (spinal tap level) and sounded great but moderate volume levels were better delivered from the source set high.

Elliot,

“the room shook with the orchestra and organ at full tilt…”

That WAS an exaggeration.

sgreg, I think that is an idiosyncrasy of your system.

Teo_audio, what in the world are you talking about?

rvpiano, I have an set of Cesar Franck's complete organ works. There are several pieces with an A0. That is 27.5 Hz. Your vision actually blurs forget about everything in the house shaking. 

Audiophiles shunned loudness compensation in the late 70's. It was felt that any analog filtering caused more harm than good which I personally believe is true. We simply played the music at the right volume.  But, now we have digital filtering which is a whole different ballgame. Once you are in numbers you can do anything you want including programming loudness compensation to match the any volume. This allows you to play a piece at lower volumes with the right balance. Unfortunately, very few processors offer dynamic loudness compensation. You have to program you own curves and select them manually.

Another thing affecting lowest volume one can satisfactorily listen at is ambient and/or steady state noise floor. This would be noise generated internally from house. Add to that outdoor noise which makes it to listening room. The higher this noise floor, the higher volume we'll need. Perhaps lower noise floors late at night are part of what makes late night listening more pleasurable. I'm so fixated on this I turn off my AC, refrigerator in adjoining room, in winter turn furnace way down.

@sns 

I’m the same. I have a furnace room with a extra refrigerator next to my listening area. Both are relatively quiet but to keep the noise down I turn the AC off. Fortunately I can do this with my iPhone after I sit down. I’m probably going to do some serious sound insulation inside the room this year and see how quiet I can make it.

@rvpiano

It sounds like you are really enjoying your Triton Ones. 

Stereo5,

Thats a big YES!

Yep, the refrigerator goes off, especially on Saturday nights when doing some serious listening.  It does make a difference for the noise floor.  I always wright a small note "Fridge" and leave it on the kitchen counter top.  I'll always see that before turning off the lights and going to bed.  Only once I made the mistake of forgetting the turn the refrigerator back on.  In  the morning it was obvious as the milk was not so cold and the freezer side fared better but still not a good idea.  I now always use the note on the counter.  Lowering the noise floor just makes for a more pleasant listening experience.

A unit called a phon is used to describe human hearing numerically. When phon curves are displayed on a decibel - frequency graph, the curve is ’U" shaped. The higher the decibel level the more the phon curve flattens out.

At very low volume levels we are more inclined to hear only midrange frequencies and not very low or very high frequencies. As the volume increases our hearing changes and we start perceiving low and high frequencies also.

Hearing | Physics (lumenlearning.com)

Pauly, thanks for that, explains much in the global sense. And then on the micro front, I find individual recordings or cuts, even on same album/cd (recording levels variable within that single album/cdn) require individual volume settings, something not too loud or soft, somewhere that's just right. On top of that, genre of music demands different volumes, electronic dance music for instance loud, folk not so much. Yeah, the volume control is so damn important, rather than being fearful of it I'm in awe of it.

@sns

You touch on a very interesting topic. Any complex (multiple frequency) sound, whether it be conversation, music or birds chirping outside; a change the decibel level results in a change of content of the sound we hear. In short a song at 81db is not the same song at 90db. Our brains do a good job at hiding that from us, for very good reason.

You altering the volume for different songs means you are, perhaps only subconsciously, aware of a change in content as you change volume and actually “tuning” the content of the material to what sounds best to you.

I’m grossly oversimplifying, but we do more than alter the volume level when we change volume. From the perspective of human hearing, we also change the content of what we hear.

To your point, yes volume control is a real biggie.

AS we age, we lose higher, then middle frequencies.  Playing louder allows us to blend them better.  I often turn up the volume until just before the clipping indicators come on, then lower it about a notch.  Seriously 12-1:00.  I rarely go past 10, and my amp and preamps are matched sets.

Years ago when I was young & had a huge 2-channel system in the LR, I did very little low-volume listening. It was all medium volume on up. That was then...

Now with the constrained space desktop system in my home office, things are very different. I listen to low volume music ~60-70 hrs/week. I've been extremely lucky to find some components that play very well at low volumes. True, without a loudness contour switch the deep bass is harder to hear--but with a good sub and speakers that have robust mid- and lower-bass capability, enough bass comes through.

I've owned equipment that for one reason or other only sounded good at higher volumes. That was a dispiriting, futile feeling..."chasing" volume is proof that you need better equipment IMO.

As has been mentioned above, if the mixing and mastering engineers had good ears, the recording will sound most balanced at the level they used in the studio. Usually pretty damn loud.

@ rvpiano
Do you have a radio shack SPL meter?  If not, download a free SPL app on your phone and measure the volume you were accustomed to and then this newfound sweet zone?  I am very curious as to the two levels where you found this improvement.  I am usually in the 80-85db zone.  Sometimes when I have had a few drinks and put on a record that I really love I will get up in the 90s, but rarely more.

@millercarbon 
What levels have you suggested to get the most out of recordings?  I don't recall seeing your comments on this.

Dhite,

I’ve done some decibel testing. Right around 85db-90db at peak volume.

Yes....the music really does have amazing impact on a nice system at that level.  : )

I typically listen at the 65 to 75 db range. So the fast response varies in that range. Slow is in the 70 - 75 db range.

I used to have to listen loud until I got a good room. Now, listening at low levels can sound as good or better - depending on the recording - as at higher levels.

The old room was an asymmetrical 1200 sq ft of a 2,000 sq ft loft with a tin ceiling, brick walls, very large glass windows, hardwood floors. Lots of reflecting surfaces.

The new room is semi anechoic, symmetrical, with a pronounced gable roof, and 6” of rockwool in the walls, 17” in the ceiling, covered with burlap.

listening is in the 65 to 95 db range. Listening at a higher volume than 95 is uncomfortable, but not because the system is distorting.