I recently heard a $50K TT at a friend’s and was floored by the performance.
It was a sound from a system I have never heard.
I have a very nice Woodsong Garrard 301, Tri-Planar arm and Grado Epoch 3 cartridge. Going into an Atma-Sphere MP-1 pre wt phono.
Discovered an affordable TT based on the Legendary Commonwealth idler drive TT (said to be among the best). One is $8500 and the other more elaborate one is $15K.
And there is another highly modified brass Garrard 401 for $10K. (said to be as good as the Commonwealth)
The big question is whether or not I am going to be pleased with the improvement in sound? There will certainly be a lot of hassle to change TTs!
I had a Kuzma XL Dc, 2 arms, 4pt and ref 313 , various carts including an atlas. It was my ultimate TT , carefully isolated, it sounded great. Along the way I built a sophisticated streamer coupled with a lampizator dac and it sounded as good, sometimes better, on every thing except some very well recorded analogue jazz albums LPs.
Moving house necessitated selling the Kuzma system. I still have a couple of thousand LPs so now have a Technics SL 1200 G which produces a sound very close to the Kuzma with subtle improvements in tonality.
The mega TTs possibly produce amazing results but lower down it is possible to achieve excellent results more affordably. Form my experience of numerous TTs I have found the phono stage/MC step up imposes a massive influence on the quality of the sound achieved.
Miglik, as mentioned before, but you owe it to yourself to hook your turntable up to your friend’s obvious audiophile system and compare the sound. You may be surprised how good your Garrard is.
This could make you rethink what may be a better upgrade.
@solypsa, Greetings! I live in Lake Stevens, a quiet country community of about 15,000 people, 45 minutes north of Seattle. Life is very good! Retired and loving every day I wake up! :)
@sokogearThe ideal, is for the TT to not have a sound, equally attractive is for the TT to have a non-eccentric rotation, with the non-eccentric rotation being available a extremely accurate speed control will be a much desired addition.
It is extremely difficult to have a TT that does not produce something as a result of the TT's function that is not a detriment, that does not impart mechanical noise, oscillation or Wow into a replay, either of which are measurable and in frequent cases audible to the end user.
There are ways to reduce these detrimental influences, but these cost money if being resolved from a commercial front and can be met with commissioning a skilled individual with a familiarity with a design, to take the work required on. The average individual can learn to service a mechanical part, but to get to a place of noticeable betterment machining of parts can be required.
I’m of the belief that my Marantz TT15S1, with ACE Benz MC cartridge would smoke your Garrard. And between the table $1400 as new, cartridge $650 new, and phono pre $450 used, I’ve less than $2300 invested. Well, it’s simply a thought.
The TT should not have a sound. The arm, cartridge and phono stage are what is important, assuming a distortion free TT, which it sounds like idler drives are not (never had one) since they seem to have a "sound".
They should be well matched in terms of cartridge weight and phono stage compatibility with the cartridge, and of course the arm fitting the turntable.
Rega arms are the best bang for the buck, and for ease of implementation of course match perfectly to their tables. If you want to go above a $2200 arm (Rega's top of the line RB3000), have at it. Personally, I went with the RB880 arm for half the price of that, and ended up buying the TT it comes on (P8) after the fact. Kept the same cartridge. Arm made a much bigger difference than the table (had a Rega P5 before the P8).
It is the reduced rich tone that is the appeal to myself. I have become quite adept at adding rich tone when desirable by the use of additional ancillaries.
You would of course be welcome to listen to Verismo here but (1) I live in UK so am probably a ways away from you and in my experience (2) there is limited benefit in auditioning cartridges for purchase in unknown systems and (3) yes it is impossible to get a loaner cartridge to put in one's own system. One way forward might be to take one's present cart and install in the dealer's system to compare with the cart under review.
I have found the match between cartridge mass and arm mass to be at least as critical as resonance matching, In particular, don't put a light cart in a heavy arm. A90, A95 and Verismo are all very low mass (Verismo a tad heavier). They suit my Simon Yorke Aeroarm (very short parallel tracker) extremely well.
I can give you a taste of Verismo vs. A95. They both have the same Ortofon family sound characteristics. Very accurate transducers, but perhaps a little light in the heavy patches. Verismo does a bit better there whilst retaining all the truthfulness. You say you haven't heard Anna. This is far heavier both in mass and in its sound character, very very solid and authoritative. My mistake, it didn't suit the Aeroarm at all, so I run it in my Zarathustra, an SY product from the 1980s, very heavy platter, sprung, with a Zeta arm, also high mass. It goes very well. So Verismo is only one 'cutting edge' at Ortofon. Anna is cutting, but a rather different edge. They rate it as possibly the best they have done and there is now an uprated version. If you have a high mass arm you should definitely hear it.
I do also recommend you to try the AT ART1000. It is a really good piece, state of their art, with more authority and weight than the A90-Verismo line but little if any loss of accuracy, very clean, and a very well-balanced sound stage. Delicate to handle, it has a unique suspension system.
@clearthinkerI am wed to Ortofon and have recently become quite interested in the Verismo, it is no longer a curiosity, I would like to experience.
I have a good recollection of a A95 in use and am very familiar with a Windfeld PR in use, but can't recall encountering the Anna.
The Verismo is the one I am now looking on as the cutting edge for the Ortofon Design, it does make it known newer materials are in use for parts that have a critical function.
I am also going to get myself a demonstration of a MSL Platinum and Mutech Hayabusa.
The Verismo and Hayabusa, are the two I suspect, that will the shortlist to be decided on. It would have been nice if more was available, but getting a demonstration of a Cart' comes with challenges.
@fsonicsmith A great tonearm with a great cartridge on a competent drive will do the trick. You have to consider the cartridge and tonearm as one unit.
The variation in the quality of cartridges is quite substantial. The more expensive cartridges are more carefully constructed with better components especially diamonds. Some cartridge companies like Lyra, MSL and Ortofon maintain their quality as you go down line, others most definitely do not like Audio Technica. I mention these companies because I have the most experience with them.
After hearing at a dealers a Kuzma Safir tonearm and having heard this system many times before but with a 4point I can say the tonearm transformed the sound more than any other piece of gear. Yes it's an expensive arm but I'd say buy it rather than a multi thousand dollar table and be very happy. BTW the table was a Kuzma Stabi R and had MSL cartridge (don't recall model).
I've said the same here in this forum for years. A great tonearm paired with a competent drive will blow anyone away when set up properly with no more than a modest cartridge. But most audiophiles buy with their eyes. Like loudspeakers, they fixate on the turntable only to their detriment.
After hearing at a dealers a Kuzma Safir tonearm and having heard this system many times before but with a 4point I can say the tonearm transformed the sound more than any other piece of gear. Yes it's an expensive arm but I'd say buy it rather than a multi thousand dollar table and be very happy. BTW the table was a Kuzma Stabi R and had MSL cartridge (don't recall model).
That Kronos TT I heard at RMAF 2019 was unlike any analog I have ever had the pleasure to listen to. Completely incredible. Bonus was the designer was running it. Very approachable.
But the momentum of producing great new high end tables had tremendous momentum… and before table companies started cutting back the vinyl resurgence occurred.
on the 100K comments, I think you need a decent room and a few K (used) for an amazing analog sound. Of course you can spent 10s of 1000s and get a better sound.
Number one question I thought about when I read this post is: 'what did the room look like'? From my own experience components seem to be a noticeable but minor actor in the equation. When changing the components, you will be ’tweaking’ the quality of the sound. The main protagonists are the room structure and speaker relationship. I would spend that 50k tearing out drywall and lifting ceiling heights and buying nice Persian/Turkish rugs.
Puting a rug in the right place does more to sound than going from one high end component to another.
Once you get to a certain level of vinyl playback equipment it becomes more about flavor nuances and aesthetic appearance. Maybe better to ask yourself whether you are looking for a different flavor rather than “better performance”.
Hipsterjefe If you can have both , expensive system and able to go to live music why not? Here in Illinois I live close to Ravinia festival.and 30 minutes from Genesse theater where they have good line up of musicians. So I ussually attend live music as well. I hope I can attend where Patricia Barber plays with her band in Chicago, I live 30 minutes from Chicago as well.
Since this system is owned by a friend I assume that he would help you analyze this opportunity to upgrade. Do you and your friend both have CD players hooked up to your systems? If so you can start with a simple comparison that will answer a lot of questions. Note: When I say Turntable I mean the entire system including tonearm and cartridge.
Pick a vinyl record and the corresponding CD title from your collection that is good demo material. If you lack either the CD or the record, buy it. Compare the CD and the vinyl on your system and note the differences - frequency response, detail, soundstaging, etc. Take the CD and vinyl to your friend's house and do the same. Does his TT blow away the CD? What are the differences there? Does the CD sound amazing too?
This test can be valuable for a couple of reasons: 1) CD players are much more uniform in SQ than turntables so they can provide a good reference, and 2) If you hear substantial differences between your friend's TT and CD player it will help you analyze what you are hearing and what appeals to you.
This is easier than @tomic601 's suggestion of lugging your TT to your friend's house but I heartily endorse his idea too. Before you contemplate spending tens of thousands of dollars it would make sense to do some due diligence. Besides, geeking out with your audio buddy is a great way to spend an afternoon.
I sort of chuckle when I read some of the stratospheric cost figures that got tossed out here for sound reproduction systems. Personally, I'd take that same "budget" and attend more *live* music events, where the sound is, well, the sound you're trying to replicate in your room. I'm fortunate enough to live in an area that supports a wide range of live musical performances, so I get my fill of classical, jazz, and rock performances--these are my true "reference" system.
I would expect anybody who is introduced to a System for the first time, in a home environment, where the system has been carefully put together to get the best from the sources selected to be used, will be impressed with the demonstration offered.
It does not take a $50K TT to seriously impress in such a set up, a lesser valued TT, can I am sure offer a great performance.
I in the past and mainly prior to covid times, had travelled a Four Hundred Mile round trip to attend a HiFi Clubs periodical event, where the meeting place has a resident £200 000+ system.
The Speakers and Amplification alone retail at £140K.
The loom is said to be near £20K.
The main attraction is to get to hear devices brought by others slotted into the system, to see how they perform in such Hi End Company.
Vinyl and Speakers are the biggy, with Digital being the less frequent.
I have heard modified TT's and Tonearms costing a £1000 as donors prior to being modified, hold their own alongside TT > Tonearm > Cart's costing 20-30 time more as a retail price.
No Different with Phonostages, the resident Phon' is a £10K retail price, and it isknown this model quite happily competes with Phon's upto twice its value.
I have witnessed the resident Phon' matched with the homebuilt Phon' Designs, or even bettered, if a certain range of a frequency is ones most preferred. The home built designs costing approx' £1500 - 2K, produced by adept EE's, can really shine out for the attractiveness they offer.
I have also heard these home produced Phon's make Commercial products sound very inferior regularly, that are 2.5-4 times the price.
As advice for the OP, I would suggest continuance of enjoying the system that has been produced.
Whilst enjoying what is already in place, I would suggest attempting to experience other systems, whether personal owned or from a commercial environment.
There are experiences to be had that can be of equal impression to the friends system, and possibly achievable for substantially less monies, if wanted to be pursued.
Keep a open mind, Branded Items are produced with tight financial constraints, and can quite easily be placed in the more expensive end of the market, especially if aesthetic appearance has been the heaviest of impact on the overhead to produce.
The DIY Market is not so constrained and a lot can be offered for not too much, the end aesthetic might be a little robust but 'hey ho', it is easily overlooked if one does not do their listening with their eyes. Bear in mind the TT's you are focusing on are coming from this background, and is possibly evolved into a cottage industry, with a High Mark Up on a product, due to a small turnover of sales.
A turntable should not add ANYTHING to the sound quality. The most important attributes a turntable can have are lack of noise, isolation from the outside world, pitch consistency and speed accuracy. Pitch consistency requires unwavering speed and a very flat record. So, the turntable must be able to clamp the record flat.
Going to another idler drive will do absolutely nothing for you. Remember, the sound of your friend's system was due in the most part to his Speaker/room combination not the turntable. You already have a fine set up with one exception, the Garrard. @clearthinkeris absolutely right. Idler wheel drive is an antiquated design. The noise and rumble are legion. Each bearing and contact point adds to the symphony and on top of that their pitch consistency is poor. The attraction to these turntables is purely psychological. Like clearthinker I sold my last idler wheel drive table in 1967, never to look back.
On the bright side there are meaningful improvements you can make by going to a quieter, more accurate table with isolation and either vacuum or reflex clamping. Sota is out because your arm will not fit. SME is a possibility if you can find one you can afford. The Kuzma Ref 2 is an excellent choice and in your price bracket! Get a good dust cover for it and you are in business. You will notice my blacker backgrounds and a realness to the music missing in setups with poor pitch consistency. Wavering pitch kills the illusion that you might be listening to a real performance.
I think you’d be better off assessing what you currently have and make modifications or tweaks that would help you achieve the sound you are looking for. For example cartridge, cables, arm. speed controller, damping, feet the list goes on. Rarely can you find what you’re looking for “off the rack” so to speak. The other option might be to try your friends turntable in your system if that’s possible. My point is I’ll bet it doesn’t sound the same. Good luck.
as for what you heard, IF possible, take your TT there, listen to it thru that phono stage, all his equipment. Now, your TT, his TT, degree of difference?
Whatever Garrard 301 enthusiasts say, one does have to ask whether a 70 year old turntable design is the best sounding thing you can buy. And I speak as an former Garrard 4HF owner.
I had a cheap starter system that was about 6.5-7k with a Rega planar 6, mofi ultra tracker MM cartridge and a rogue audio phono with NOS tubes all with upgraded power cables from Shunyata Delta V2’s.
The legend Mike Trei helped me align and pick out the cart. So don’t think i did it half ass and do not know what I was doing.
It was a solid 6 out of 10! I realized for me to get to the next level would be more money than my entire system. Good vinyl playback is possible but requires a huge investment to read the record well and extract all the information out! I have a very resolving system and invested more money into my Lampizator and got better results through digital then I could ever afford on vinyl. I heard many 15-20k-25-30k-35k from AMG, Basis, Kuzma & SMS rigs that sound flat or just wrong and off. Most of the good stuff is over 50 grand as he pointed out in his original post. I would say it takes about 100k to really make a statement vinyl rig and 200k for a reference vinyl rig. Kronos is the best I heard. The new Kronos discovery is the only rig I have heard that can beat the best 50k-100k dac’s out there. It also depends on your speakers. If you have british speakers or Sonus Faber or Dynaudio or lower end Focal stuff you don’t need to go as nuts with vinyl since they don’t have the dynamic range of a YG acoustics like I have or a Magico, Rockport Technologies, Stenheim, or newer Wilson Alexx-V or Alexia V or XVX..Best bang per buck a Rega planar 10 with Aphelion 2 cart and a Rega Aura Moving Coil Phono stage. Everything will match impedance levels and set up will be easier without any guesswork to get something solid for about 18k with good synergy.
To get good sound from a Turntable requires a huge investment. Unless you really want to spend over 50-200k you will never be happy chasing dragons.
sell you turntable like I did and focus on digital and getting a better amp and speakers first. Or buy a Kronos Sparta for about 30k-35 with a good tonearm and get a 20k audionet phono stage with a 10k power supply for it. You will also need Kubla Sosna elation tonearm cables and power cables.
All this will not be perfect but will be a step up from what you heard in your friends room.
My friend bought a fully refurbished Garrard 401 with some upgraded parts, with a very nice plinth, fitted with a Groovemaster 12" and an Ortofon SPU Royal GM II.
For some reason he had to go back to his other turntable which was Nottingham Analogue Ace Spacedeck fitted with the same arm and cartridge.
Let's just say the Nottingham Analogue wiped the floor withe the Garrard 401 in everyway possible.
Whilst I understand the nostalgia in owning a Garrard 301 or 401, and for those of you that own and love them fair play to you, but from my experience they cannot compete with more modern well engineered turntables.
You have had some good advice from colleagues above.
I would like to add that what you heard was a total system, including room dynamics, acoustics. Please do not underestimate the impact of room treatment, simple adjustments to your current room (furniture layout, alignment of speakers, sound absorption of curtains / wall sound absorbers etc) will yield surprising results without change of rig.
IMO, the turntable is the most important part of the vinyl system. You already have a fine tonearm and cartridge - let them sing! Be sure to audition an air bearing TT, air thrust and air sleeve. Air for both, if you can find one.
Once you have heard air, there is no going back. IMO.
But others like Mike Lavigne also have very good advice.
Stick with what you have! The 301/Tri-Planar/Grado Epoch is truly excellent - and very costly! Spending more $$$ beyond this is a waste of money! If you want to hear a real change buy a better pair of speakers.
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