Did the Old Receivers Sound Good?

@mikem 

+1 good one.

Nostalgia always sounds better, until you listen to it.

My guess it's like a 60's muscle car.  It was fun then and it's fun now.  And and VW GTI will outperform it in comfort in many ways (not all).

A month ago for the fun of I hooked up an old Adcom amp to my system - it was my friends and he had it for a while and in college it was my idea of audio bliss.

I hooked it up to my preamp and my speakers...it sound horrible.  It lacked the dynamics of my Moon amps - sound stage was smaller, bass was undefined and it was an experiment that lasted for 15 minutes.  And in college that amp with Boston Acoustics speakers was something I could and did listen to for hours.

As a collector of ‘70’s integrated amplifier’s, I enjoy great pride of ownership from many pick-of-the-litter classics when expertly restored. It’s a blast finding speaker combinations that bring out their best.

Many components of this decade are well designed and built which easily lends itself to a quality rebuild including a Paul Hovenga modified Accuphase P-250 which is the daily driver of my Dynaudio Heritage Special loudspeakers.

The only receiver in my stash is a Marantz 2330 which is a sonic jewel with many loudspeakers. I also wouldn’t discard a Sansui G8000 after it had the Many Moons Audio treatment.

@bill_k

@elliottbnewcombjr

+1

I remember the spec wars… incredibly low distortion numbers for components that sounded terrible. I remember 70’s and 80’s Pioneer, Marantz, Yamaha, and Sansui… they do not hold a candle to high end equipment of the 80’s And 90’s let alone now. I owned / own some of that stuff. So much advancement has been made in better actual sound, ignoring specs it is incredible. It was a very dark time except for truly high end components… Threshold, Nakamichi, Audio Research… etc.

Back in the early-mid 70’s I had a Marantz 1050 amp, but, remember a fellow dorm mate down the hall with a Sansui receiver, and I remember being impressed by it. He was very proud of that piece of equipment, and had every right to be.

Ohh and I leave it one all the time as I read the current inrush is the worst thing for old caps. Not sure if that’s the right thing to do or not. Conflicting opinions on that. 

Well listening to my 50 year old Sansui now and it sounds really really good and involving. It’s had service and completely checked out from the previous owner 10 or so years ago with a few things replaced. I have the receipts of 300 or so. I think it’s good for now but that bug in the back of my mind says get is totally recapped etc! I’m afraid it will lose its panache so I’m gonna hold off as I feel it’s doing its thing. 
 

Finally: specs/reviews (I constantly read Julian Hirsch during the ’specs era’)...

I settled on: "Is it INVOLVING?"

Sucks you into the content, forget the equipment. Listen for a long session with no fatigue?

For me, tubes are more involving than SS, and then we have the issue: Every time you approach anything: auto; receiver; tt, speakers, coffee maker: is it still a thrill to see/be glad of your choice.

Keeping vintage going properly can be very satisfying, and every time you turn it on, the expectations are high.

It is wise to find a pro to check/repair any vintage components, resistors etc. go out of spec. I don’t ’upgrade’, I just get back to original performance.

I have compared new/old/SS/tube, vintage tubes do it for me.

Also, the vintage FEATURES are a big draw for me.

Back in the late 70s there was a race by the major electronics manufacturers (Pioneer, Kenwood, Sansui, etc.) to lower Total Harmonic Distortion or THD. Sales were often driven by these numbers and lower THD was a great way to generate interest in upgrades. As new electronics were coming out with ultra-low THD many listeners began to notice that the newer gear actually sounded worse (harder edged, less musical and more electronic sounding) than similar previous models which had higher THD.

Engineer Matti Otala from Harman Kardon then discovered a new type of distortion called Transient Intermodulation Distortion or TIM, which seemed to correlate to the negative sound attributes heard with low THD designs. He found that decreasing THD which was commonly accomplished by adding negative feedback created higher TIM which was believed to be more harmful than the higher THD. So many of these manufacturers then started cutting back on negative feedback and TIM became a measurement which was often included along with THD.

This demonstrates how just focusing on measurements can be counter productive, in that we may have errors in measurement due to test equipment limitations or we may be measuring the wrong things. Who knows how many other forms of distortion may still be unknown that can have an effect on human perception of music reproduction.

Many of the receivers from that era are being serviced and sold for very high prices, with sellers saying "they don't make them like they used to!" and playing up the perception that larger and heavier electronics must be attributed to their high quality. The truth is that many of them don't sound good at all due to the focus of their initial designs during that era.

I’ve been putting back together my basement system. For the past 2 weeks I’ve been swapping out between a Musical Fidelity A1008, upgraded Jolida 302CRC, and my Sansui AU9500 on my Focal vinyl only system. That damn Sansui just sounds more alive than the other 2. Slamming bass and mid bass and soaring high end. It sounds meaty or juicy is the best descriptor I can think of. Really good array of analog tone controls as well I fiddle with from time to time depending on the recording. Not sure if it’s neutral but don’t care. Been thinking of trying out my 801 matrix V2s with it but probably doesn’t have the juice for those. 

Sansui

My receiver is a g9000.

Fsntastic! 
pioneer pl58

dahlquist 20’s

perfect in every way.

I had this pretty good single modern speaker that i used for test purposes on my work bench. One day I came across a very old Fisher 500 mono receiver for little money.  I replaced the original  coupling caps with Hovland Musicaps just because and hooked it up to  the lone speaker, and was quite surprised by the very good quality of the sound just using its tuner. I added a cd player and felt humbled by the results. I left all in place and used that oddball system as my music source while I dinked around on projects. I still remember having someone comment on how good that all sounded. It would never replace anything I have used in my listening room for these many years, but I am still impressed by that 1950's product.

Another +1 for @jsalerno277 

well said , thank you . 
 

I too am enjoying new an old systems in my home - they all give me great pleasure when listening to them . I find that when I try to mix old and new components they usually don’t put out the desired results . 
the one piece that seems to be universally able to be slotted into any system is an entry level Atma-Sphere pre-amp with SN7‘a which make everything sound good - somehow .  

Well my first real setup was a Sony Str 7065 paired $259 and a AR TT with Shure cart $100 from Crazy Eddie's in Blkyn NY.i didn't like the manual TT so sold it and bought a Technics SL1350 with Shure V15 cart $400.Hooked it up to  Bose 901 s 2a which I bought used from a guy on Sutton Pl.in NYC for $315 they were a year old new they went for $575 fair traded,I got the stands and custom made stands with them.Well I was 22 just married 1973 and this system rocked.

I picked up a near-mint (in appearance) Sansui AU-517 integrated to go with the TU-717 I've owned for almost 30 years. It's teamed with a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 7s and the sound is unexpectedly good. Clarity and dynamics are there in spades. IMO, for lack of a better term, vintage amps seem to produce music with more 'body' to it. A Sony CDP XA20ES CD player and an Adcom GCD-700 carousel player, both running through an older MSB Gold Link DAC/Powerbase, make CDs sound the best I can recall in a long time. This little system was playing last weekend when two fellows came by to pick up a PS Audio HCA-2/Cary SL-100 combo I was selling. I retired a couple of years ago and have been selling off most of my higher-end (for me) components to beef up my savings. They seemed to be as impressed with the vintage gear's sound as with the newer amp's/preamp's sound through a pair of ADS L-810s (which was pretty sweet). My condo has a very open floor-plan in the area where both of those systems are located, and I think that was a big positive in the equation.

I have fond memories of my old Pioneer when it was new- it sounded very good and the biggest point is that it never sounded offensive.  

I do not believe you can say that about lots of contemporary amplifiers.  

Another thing is that listening to vintage receivers today is not a valid impression.  

I would love to hear a vintage amplifier design made ground up all new parts.  I bet it would surprise....

If we look at it from a nostalgic point of view, yes. Oh that smooth, velvety sound of the 70’s.  Just plug in an old system and it’s often not what we remember. I think there was excellent gear back then but not at common man prices. Today, you can get some quality gear for relatively cheap. 

Back in the late 70's, I assembled what for the times was a pretty decent system.

Not state of the art but it was what I could afford at the time. I had a Yamaha CR2020 receiver, ADS L810 ii speakers and a Denon DP790 turntable.

The turntable and some Stax headphones were acquired at a fire sale. Later added a Sony 3 head tape deck and put a Grace cartridge on the Denon since the Yamaha had a MC input. It was a very satisfying system at the time but as some have mentioned, relying on hearing memory is not reliable.

I still have the CR2020 in storage and gave the speakers to my little brother. currently live with a very modest system, Yamaha, KEF ,Technics TT and a Sony CD/DVD player. For "serious" listening, I Run Amazon Ultra hd from a Dell precision desktop through a JDS DAC and amp to HiFi man Ananda or Sennheiser 600 series headphones. Now living in an Audiophile dealer desert, I can't really compare to newer high end stuff. Probably wouldn't matter as my mid 70 yo ears no longer discern the difference.  

I have a Fisher 400 and 500 tube receivers which are very warm and tubey sounding.  I keep them as souvenirs.   I also have Sherwood 7100 which is also very good and cheap.  My two Yamaha CR620s are used for my big screen TVs and provide excellent low cost sound (Tom Port of Better Records uses them to audition hot stampers with Legacy Focuses).  

I had a Pioneer SX1250 in 1976 I think it was. I loved it at the time. (less than $600.00 at the PX). When I came home with it, I bought an Onkyo 303 preamp from CRAZY EDDIE. I used it with the amp section of the Pioneer. I couldn't believe my ears! The 303 blew the pre amp of the Pioneer away. That was the beginning of my audio journey. I also had a Sansui 9090DB. It sounded terrible at least with my Bose 901's at the time. They were pretty though! Joe

Yes. I own and use a Pioneer SA-8800, SX-3800, M-72 and C-72.

Fun thread. I live in a zone between new and old with a restomod assemblage of modern separates supporting a system based on serviced and recapped Crown PS-200 amp from a little church in Virginia. A good DAC with bright 2549 interconnects, Mogami 3103 speaker cables, a REL T5i sub and a pair of mahogany Wharfedale Linton 85th Anniversary big baffles combine to deliver the best of both worlds LOL.

Total investment $2500  - and a ton of free fun figuring ways to refine that high current 155 WPC into 4 ohm signal!

I love this thread. It’s like a tour of every party I went to in high school and college. Listening to many systems then, I figured out pretty early on it was all about synergy, and specifications didn’t mean a thing if your amp didn’t pair with your speakers (but alcohol, weed and volume were great equalizers). In that sense, a vintage amp performing to spec (whatever those are for the old amp) paired with the right speakers will sound better than a modern amp paired with the wrong speakers. Some combinations just click. My friends who worked in hifi stores spent a lot of time figuring this out for the gear they had on hand because they knew they usually had one shot at selling you stuff.

My first experience with hifi was with my dad’s Garrard turntable and Fisher tube receiver feeding full range naked drivers stuffed up in the architectural structure of our mid century living room. Soundstage? I don’t know, the sound was everywhere. Bass and treble? Not so much, but oh that midrange was delicious. In the 1970s he got the idea he wanted to upgrade, I suggested Pioneer or Sansui. He opted for a solid state Macintosh receiver with a Philips Electric TT and large Advents. I was never really that impressed.

He gave me the Fisher, and it just seemed old to me and (first big hifi mistake) I sold it and bought a Kenwood KA3500 integrated, liking the way it looked and thinking I was being a “purist”. I paired the amp with Bose 301 bookshelf speakers and an AR TT and that combination actually sounded so good I had people coming into my dorm room from down the hall asking who was playing the guitar. I kept that Kenwood for over thirty years and used it with various speakers and even a sub and it didn’t embarrass itself up until the day it died. It did not sound as sophisticated as my newer gear, and probably didn’t even when it was new. I don’t miss the Kenwood, but I do wish I still had the Fisher receiver (and the AR turntable for that matter).

I was in a used hifi store recently and they had a plenty of big old Japanese receivers and integrated amps in stock (not many separates), and it was fun to reminisce looking at all those shinny hulks. But they’re not cheap now - the cost of nostalgia.

Earlier in the thread somebody mentioned the industrial scale of production and worldwide demand for receivers in the 1970s kept quality high and prices competitive. If you are looking for a bargain now, I would look at the top of the line AVR receivers from a few years ago from the likes Denon, Marantz, Arcam, Yamaha, Sony, and maybe NAD, but they went through a bad patch for quality. In the 2000’s these were company flagships and high production rates and intense competition resulted in quality components, toroidal transformers, and decent sound. Most have a direct signal feature that turns off all the signal processing and turns the units into essentially big integrated amplifiers. An Arcam AVR 600 will sound several times better than a Pioneer SX1280 and will cost you about the same amount of money on today’s market.

As for spec coming back into fashion, you must have spent some time over on AudioScienceReview, LOL.

I recently had a vintage solid-state receiver cleaned up and an IEC inlet installed to allow me to use a high-end power cord. The results were a huge improvement in resolution and a decent improvement in transparency. The noise floor also dropped due to the improvement in resolution. I've also replaced the captive zip-cord power cords of a Sony ES CD player and ES tuner (1990s vintage) with high-end power cords with even better results. Both pieces are in my main system with the CD player used only as a transport. Granted, the power cords cost more than the components themselves, but these, too, are available as high-value items on the used market. Even a $300 power cord will give you a lot of sound quality over cheap captive power cords.

I still have my first real piece of good stereo equipment, a Sansui AU9500 integrated.  Very highly rated at the time.  Had it recapped several years ago just for fun but it sure doesn't stand a chance against newer equipment.  Remember that piece is 50 years old.

RE: Sherwoods are sleepers

AMEN! My first decent piece of gear was an S-7600 receiver - fabulous FM section and good sounding, if modest, power output. Used it for 10 years. Later had a bedroom/office system based on an S-7310 - another fine piece of gear. Briefly had an S-9900 behemoth but a friend liked it so much, he paid me more than I paid for it. The US and Japanese models were very good. The later Korean gear was not up to Sherwood's standards.

Can anyone describe the sound of a failing capacitor or tube in a vintage unit? Unfortunately I have never heard a tube in a peice of audio gear. Now guitar amps I have heard plenty of and they sound great.

I had major GAS in the 70s and 80s and went through all sorts of Japanese receivers and integrateds. Were they completely accurate in their reproduction? Most not, but most of them had big, warm, rich sound that was satisfying. Can't think of a better word. I worked at an audio store while in college and took home most anything I wanted. The bigger Pioneer receivers like the SX-1980 and the Sansui G-33000 were actually very good with huge power reserves but capable of pretty "articulate" reproduction. Problem with those was, even then, they were very expensive. An overlooked one in my opinion is the Sony STR-V7 which had a much more clinical sound. I still have a few pieces but, like most, use my more modern equipment these days. What I miss about those days is that the industry was healthier, big investment was put into new things (sometimes gimmicks), and new approaches were developed seemingly every month. 

had sansei 7070 and 9090.

descent, the looks is what grabbed me. sounded good.

if you like it, USE IT.

who cares what people think. enjoy.

still use a  mass prod yam 90W receiver for recording LP to CD with software. all is fine.

It was, after all, the Age of Radio.

I discovered that I had to go back thirty years and more to find a fine tuner.

And there are some gems among them.

The Tuner Information Center website (fmtunerinfo dot com) is a valuable resource.

Is there a fine tuner made today?

Just had my 1978 Pioneer SX-1280 recapped.  The amount of headroom this has for normal listening can certainly be matched today, however there is a warmth that It has that many spend $$$ searching for in a modern amp.  Upside, a fully restored SX-1280 is glorious.  Downside, It is like a classic car, It still has a propensity to need attention.  ✌🏻

I sold off all of my former mid to late 70s Sansui and Marantz units. A few years back thought I missed it. Went and bought a few Sansui and Marantz receivers, got them checked, aligned, ran them for a few months. Nice looking, fun to retry for a minute. Reality set in - those were good old memories. Did not sound nearly as good as I had recalled. Re-Sold to next the next happy vintage owner.

I have some Boston acoustics T1000 great speakers! I've heard good things about the Advent 300. 

I still have Advent Loud speakers. Not accurate, look nice sound good 

Henry Kloss was a class act! 

You bet! if you have any questions message me anytime! 

Not able to do a refurbishing but it looks so good I’ll still keep it… thanks though 

I still use the Advent 300 receiver ( 15 watts) with vintage Boston Acoustics speakers in my den system and no complaints. Is it high end? No! But it sounds pretty damn good!

@jl35 

my wonderful refurbished HK430 just started a very loud hum...guess it's done 

hk430 preamp section kinda sucks. They used subpar pots. Amplifier section is where its at!

I have to heavy upgraded Citation 12 and Citation 16. Similar design to the hk430. Sound very good!

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/15197-hk-430-receiver/

I had a Yamaha CR 820 and some Tannoy Cheviots in the late 70's. That combination is my baseline today. It was pretty much perfect to me. To each his own, right?

@jsalerno277  +1

the HK430 is one of the receivers that got blown away in direct comparison w the new little Marantz nr1200. it wasn't even close.  I was disappointed because although the HK looks way retro-cool, and it does sound good for a vintage, in honest listening it doesn't hold up to even modest moderns.  

I've owned Modern gear, Tube and Solid State. Vintage gear sound better once restored, not including receivers in the list. 

Owned a Marantz PM8006, Marantz 7T Marantz 16B blew it away. No comparison in detail, bass, musical enjoyment. I heard things in the recording completely masked by the Marantz PM8006 being $1500. Your looking at 8-10k for new gear to match at least. 

Now there is a Marantz PM7200 that does class A made in 2000's Cap upgrades and upgraded the power transformer to toroidal transformer. Very special amp! 

HK430 has amazing amplifier section, Add a tube preamp into HK430 with La Scala's. you would be in for a shock. :) 

 i generally agree with @jsalerno277 above regarding  as the sonic character of vintage vs. modern receivers, although "good sounding" is of course a subjective quality and many find the older stuff to be musically pleasing notwithstanding the higher level of resolution of modern gear. i also find the older stuff to synergize better with speakers of the same era. however,  i do think the prices of vintage gear have gotten out of whack--even , even considering their aesthetic virtues there's no way i'd drop a grand on a mid-level 70's marantz or sansui.

Nostalgia plays a large role in the interest of vintage receivers not the sound quality since many are not audiophiles. If the vintage buyer was concerned about SQ they would purchase a Belles Aria(an example) over a 40+ year old Marantz, Pioneer or Sansui receiver. 

Sherwoods were (and remain) sleepers.

Also looks awesome and build quality is just off the charts. 

My Sansui Au9500 sounds great!