Did a satisfaction threshold exist under 1000 bucks ?

Yes, you are.

i was always original it seems ... 😊

Do you think acoustic conditions define good sound or "price tag" ?

I just improve my small box speakers by acoustic embeddings so much they are completely satisfying...

I modify them...Put them in a designed acoustic corner...

Cost of my small speakers : 100 bucks...

They best most headphone on the market and many speakers in living room ......

😊

Yes, you are.

@mahgister 

That depends more on the listener than the equipment and the variation is so wide there is no reliable answer. You would have to ask 10,000 random people and analyze the results.

For sure you are right...

I was just curious about the way some people would be  able to create a very good audio system for low price and a good audiophile experience...

For sure for people owning costlier gear my claim is preposterous...😁 Money talk here...

But acoustic do more than what most people think.... And the right components... And the right synergy...

Anyway i am in heaven ... I am just curious to know if there is  anyone happy with under 1000 bucks system and why as i am  ...

@mahgister

That depends more on the listener than the equipment and the variation is so wide there is no reliable answer. You would have to ask 10,000 random people and analyze the results.

If I already know that my budget is limited, I adjust my expectations.

I’m happier if I believe that the thing I cannot afford won’t make much of a difference.

The challenge is this: if part of my mind suspects this is false, how do I convince the other part of my mind to believe it.

Orwell called this doublethink. One way I accomplish this is I find other people to help me convince myself that what I want to believe is true.

I have an inexpensive system that I like very much...but I like my main system much more...but could be happy with my under $1000 system if need be...

Interesting!

For sure there is something here that apply to me...

I know that my actual amplifier will be inferior to the best class D amplifier as atmasphere amp for example ... But anyway it is out of my budget...And my actual amp is good enough anyway...

But did i convinced a part of my brain to be happy even if it is not perfect ?

Probably you are right here for sure ...Thinking about it, i will surely invest 100,000 bucks in an audio system if i could... This contradict my ectasy each evening with a 1000 bucks system...

The problem is i dont think so it is necessary to upgrade when listening music in ectasy and being unable to fault as completely wrong on any acoustic count my audio system...It seems to me not lacking in any acoustic factors even if any of these factors can be improved for sure with an astronomical amount of money compared to 700 bucks...

I loose my bet the last time, one week ago, i tried to upgrade...Lesson learned...

For sure it is possible to upgrade with the right choice : for me a BACCH filters system... 😊

If I already know that my budget is limited, I adjust my expectations.

I’m happier if I believe that the thing I cannot afford won’t make much of a difference.

The challenge is this: if part of my mind suspects this is false, how do I convince the other part of my mind to believe it.

Orwell called this doublethink. One way I accomplish this is I find other people to help me convince myself that what I want to believe is true.

Thanks you confirm my claim that there is a minimal satisfaction threshold... Even an objective minimal  one defined by all  acoustic factors must exist ...

I have an inexpensive system that I like very much...but I like my main system much more...but could be happy with my under $1000 system if need be...

When I was in high school my friend had an affordable system: Pioneer receiver and turntable, KLH 6 speakers. Listening to Buffalo Springfield, The Nice and Pink Floyd was so enjoyable compared to my folks' GE console! Too many members here have lost touch with Reality by pursuing ever more costly components. Enjoyment of music is a subjective experience that eludes comparison based upon cost of gear.

Returning home I wish I had my friend's system!

Thanks for your thoughts and history...

It seems i am less alone in my experience than i thought i was...

When I was in high school my friend had an affordable system: Pioneer receiver and turntable, KLH 6 speakers. Listening to Buffalo Springfield, The Nice and Pink Floyd was so enjoyable compared to my folks’ GE console! Too many members here have lost touch with Reality by pursuing ever more costly components. Enjoyment of music is a subjective experience that eludes comparison based upon cost of gear.

If you are truly committed to the best possible sound you can get, then the next issue is financial. If I could only afford an eight hundred dollar system without taking food off the table or losing the roof over my head then getting a carefully constructed $1,000 system is going to sound great.

Systems at the $1K, $5K, $10K, $50K, $100K… etc, within the limits of values in sound quality each sound better than the preceding category when presented to knowledgable people that are passionate about sound quality without financial constraints… that’s a pretty objective group.

So, does a satisfaction level exist under $1,000? Absolutely. If you cannot afford more… or if you are compulsively frugal and can afford more.

I went to Outward Bound and after having no food or water for three days, being rained on for a day, snowed on for a day, freezing my butt off, with no tent or sleeping bag and having a trail biscuit and hot tea was one of the best meals I ever had.

I heard Jay's Audio Lab system played on YouTube through my TCL tablet. It was playing THAT Elvis song "I love you baby ..." from Tidal. Execrable sound quality! The Wilson speakers looked and sounded like what you'd see at a rock concert! So a quarter million for the Wilson's and another quarter million for the electronics! There is no limit to the follies of the rich!

I must confess that if i was impressed by some costly system on some occasion , each time the acoustic of the room was the MAIN culprit ...

For Jay he does not know enough  about acoustics ... Buying panels is not enough... 😁

Some people invest in gear....More and more... Some others like me had no choice than invest in the knowledge necessary to improve what they have...

It is rewarding because whatever i had in the future as  what i have now will sound very good...

Making the most with the less is true audio knowkledge... Anybody can buy the best amplifier of the world... 😊 Not me right now though and i dont need it really bad  anyway  even if i am very curious about  it for sure...

I heard Jay’s Audio Lab system played on YouTube through my TCL tablet. It was playing THAT Elvis song "I love you baby ..." from Tidal. Execrable sound quality! The Wilson speakers looked and sounded like what you’d see at a rock concert! So a quarter million for the Wilson’s and another quarter million for the electronics! There is no limit to the follies of the rich!

@mahgister

Anybody can buy the best amplifier of the world...

I understand what you’re saying but at the same time, while any rich person can buy a pair of Magicos or Wilsons, not every person who has that kind of money can take the next steps -- choosing a source, amplification, cables that add up to something sublime! ;o)

@jasonbourne52

Too many members here have lost touch with Reality by pursuing ever more costly components. Enjoyment of music is a subjective experience that eludes comparison based upon cost of gear.

I’m all for maintaining focus on the music but not everyone here is necessarily after the same thing. Those who pursue ever more costly components may simply enjoy that pursuit, so who’s to say they’ve lost touch?

Personally, I don’t relate to such a quest -- I can enjoy music just as much listening to the radio in my Subaru as I can listening at home on my modest-but-satisfying-to-my-ears system and I wouldn’t have it any other way but there is a spectrum and everyone is not located at the same point. 

I went to Outward Bound and after having no food or water for three days, being rained on for a day, snowed on for a day, freezing my butt off, with no tent or sleeping bag and having a trail biscuit and hot tea was one of the best meals I ever had.

Great story.

The lesson I take from ghdprentice's story is that there are some choice points about audio, here:

If one wants better sound but cannot afford it they should deprive themselves, periodically, to appreciate how good their current system is.

Or, one should give up the idea of better sound and just focus on music only, not sound. (That's hard.)

Or, one should figure out what else is worth giving up to afford sound after spending various increments more.

Or, one can try to convince oneself that everyone else who can spends more is deluded. (That's hard, too. Better equipment -- room and gear -- does yield better sound.)

Sub-$1,000 quality systems disappeared during the 1970s.

Perhaps it is true...

Without the 35 years old Sansui alpha nor unique 45 years old hybrid AKG K340 i will be far from where i am now...Especially without this headphone i think... Or i would had pay way more...

Then my question did not have the same meaning ...It takes very refin3ed past products to reach some minimal acoustic satisfaction level...

Sub-$1,000 quality systems disappeared during the 1970s.

I dont think for sure that someone who spend 100,000 dollars is deluded at all....

There is priorities to see BEFORE upgrading for sure : acoustics and ele4ctrical and mechanical embeddings controls but upgrading is ALWAYS possible...

My question was and is about a defined minimal satisfaction threshold defined objectively by some acoustic characteristics and for sure very important subjective factors which are linked to our sound and personal music history ....

No one is the same....Our needs too constraint our choices; i am alone and dont need a room for the family and friends for the enjoyment of music... Costs and gear are then different...

Or, one can try to convince oneself that everyone else who can spends more is deluded. (That’s hard, too. Better equipment -- room and gear -- does yield better sound.)

Happily i never give up about the idea of good sound nor about the way to reach some satisfying level...It takes me time and trials and experiments but i am more than happy now...

I can forget sound easily and focus on music because my basic acoustic needs are satisfied:  Imaging , soundstaging, holography,  timbre, etc upgrading is possible but a real upgrading  but will be very , very costly...It will cost at least ten times the cost of my system...My last upgrade was a disastrous and cost me two times almost the cost of my actual system...

Or, one should give up the idea of better sound and just focus on music only, not sound. (That's hard.)

I think that it is an interesting metaphor thanks...

It correspond to my feeling about my acoustic journey...

So, does a satisfaction level exist under $1,000? Absolutely. If you cannot afford more… or if you are compulsively frugal and can afford more.

I went to Outward Bound and after having no food or water for three days, being rained on for a day, snowed on for a day, freezing my butt off, with no tent or sleeping bag and having a trail biscuit and hot tea was one of the best meals I ever had.

I can recall many highly emotional and satisfying moments with "lesser systems." As my knowledge and awareness of "better sound" pursued an upward trajectory, each time a layer was peeled back revealing the complexity and nuance (and, yes, bone-jarring impact) of the performance my appreciation for the music, and those boxes and cables that made it happen grew exponentially.

On a long commute to a business interest years ago, I was scanning radio stations and came across a sermon that caught my attention (good preachers are excellent teachers). The message went something like this: "We are merely ants on a Rembrant seeing textures and colors change beneath our feet as we scurry around, unable to appreciate the masterpiece has been put together in front of us."

This hit home with me on many levels, including the reproduction of music. As we work our way up the "hifi scale", there is a transition from merely seeing (hearing) colors and textures (changes in tone and tempo) to a level where we can more fully appreciate the masterpiece that’s in front of us.

There’s a statement: "You don’t know what you don’t know." Which is to say that many (most?) don’t know what is missing from their musical experience at home, and are quite satisfied with what they own. Do we audiophiles provide musical inspiration to others, or are we bubble busters?

I just saw a dedicated room in HiFi magazine that easily cost over $500K and it seemed delusional, like this person was living like a czar and wasting money because he had no where else to spend it. 

Very interesting post!

Thanks...

Especially the preacher Rembrandt metaphor... 😊

I can recall many highly emotional and satisfying moments with "lesser systems." As my knowledge and awareness of "better sound" pursued an upward trajectory, each time a layer was peeled back revealing the complexity and nuance (and, yes, bone-jarring impact) of the performance my appreciation for the music, and those boxes and cables that made it happen grew exponentially.

On a long commute to a business interest years ago, I was scanning radio stations and came across a sermon that caught my attention (good preachers are excellent teachers). The message went something like this: "We are merely ants on a Rembrant seeing textures and colors change beneath our feet as we scurry around, unable to appreciate the masterpiece has been put together in front of us."

This hit home with me on many levels, including the reproduction of music. As we work our way up the "hifi scale", there is a transition from merely seeing (hearing) colors and textures (changes in tone and tempo) to a level where we can more fully appreciate the masterpiece that’s in front of us.

There’s a statement: "You don’t know what you don’t know." Which is to say that many (most?) don’t know what is missing from their musical experience at home, and are quite satisfied with what they own. Do we audiophiles provide musical inspiration to others, or are we bubble busters?

In USA under $1k you can get either too old or too chubby.

In most of Europe you can get a virgin for that

Good news:  Its very doable without a doubt these days for most people to be more than satisfied with the sound in their home using many different approaches for less than $1000. The only drawback is membership in the prestigious high end audio club will be harder to earn, so better get busy right away on that one.

I was prepared long ago about this drawback ...

The title of my virtual page in the last 10 years is : "Audiophile experience for the poor"

I discovered that the three embeddings controls : acoustic, mechanic and electric, put us far enough on the road to claim audiophile results at low cost...😊

Add to this synergy between the right vintage conmponent and you are there...

What amplifier can beat my Sansui alpha today and at which cost ?

Good luck... It will be way costlier...

For the Akg K340 , to beat it buy an Abyss or a Susvara...

Now add the cost of a new amplifier and of the susvara  and you exceed easily 10,000 bucks versus my 700 bucks...

I know for sure that i enjoy music with a very good sound... No need to fool my brain .... Upgrading will for sure be possible...

But as i said there exist a MINIMAL  audiophile threshold of satisfaction ...By objective as subjective criteria together...

😊

The only drawback is membership in the prestigious high end audio club will be harder to earn, so better get busy right away on that one.

IT's only getting harder these days for most folks in the USA to merely make ends meet.  That bodes even less well for the future of high end audio as we know it in these parts.  PEople are going to have to suck it up and make a lot of adjustments moving forward if they are to maintain the somewhat luxurious quality of life I suspect most of us here have come to expect.

@waytoomuchstuff “…I can recall many highly emotional and satisfying moments with "lesser systems." As my knowledge and awareness of "better sound" pursued an upward trajectory, each time a layer was peeled back revealing the complexity and nuance (and, yes, bone-jarring impact) of the performance my appreciation for the music, and those boxes and cables that made it happen grew exponentially. …”

👍 +1

Confession: I recently bought a $150 amp (with beefed up power supply, less otherwise) and am using in a desktop system while working from home. This is my second Fosi amp. It is very well reviewed and is documented independently as measuring very well and it sounds it at least for this application which is granted less challenging than running a full range traditional full size system in most rooms.

My other older Fosi amp that cost even less does an exceptional job driving a pair of KEF ls50s in a fairly large room, a task I have seen other "high end" amps fail at miserably.

These are my third and fourth systems. Number 1 and 2 are still much more costly, but I have been successful downsizing all around in recent years accordingly as a result of not being afraid to first try less expensive and easily returnable things that have received good press but do not necessarily have the high end audio industry "blessing". Meaning I am less prone to simply throw money at the problem than in past years, which is a positive development.

I modified my small speakers M-Audio AV40 so much well they are completely transformed...

I add cardboard cylinder around the tweeter to make easier imaging and directionality toward my listening position... Impressive results...

Then i increased the Internal volume of the small box with the right bundle of 20 tubes( straws for one dollar) i put them in the rear porthole... Results as astonishingly good no drawbacks...It is simple Helmholtz design applied... Now i have more bass depth , more extension too... The explanation is to be look for in any basic acoustic book...

New speakers completely... They were very well reviewed but now they beat or rival most headphones in near listening save my AKG K340 for sure...

Audiophile results dont equate only with "price tag" ... It is acoustics basic for me....

Think twice before qualifying my acoustic experiments by "tin foil hat"... What i did is based on acoustics not foolishness... 😊

No designer can sell a small box with tubes going out at the rear and tube going out in front... I can....

These are my third and fourth systems. Number 1 and 2 are still much more costly, but I have been successful downsizing all around in recent years accordingly as a result of not being afraid to first try less expensive and easily returnable things that do not necessarily have the high end audio industry "blessing". Meaning I am less prone to simply throw money at the problem than in past years, which is a positive development.

I can forget sound easily and focus on music because my basic acoustic needs are satisfied:  Imaging , sound staging, holography,  timbre, etc

You have arrived a totally blessed place!

Hopefully everyone else can join you, there!

I am a music lover first, but i am also an audiophile; give me 100,000 bucks i will go with ghdprentice club...😊

I never said that my 2 systems are audiophile ceiling , only at the audiophile minimal floor starting point for the speakers, but higher for my headphone which is a unique design a top one in all headphone history ...

My next upgrade will be not the headphone nor the amplifier but the dac, i dream to buy a BACCH filters dac system...

You have arrived a totally blessed place!

Hopefully everyone else can join you, there!

As you see even totally satisfied i dream anyway... But the BACCH system is way more than an upgrade to be truthfull,... I will not upgrade probably save with that...

Would love to try the new Fosi V3 with a pair of large high quality high efficiency speakers that I do not own currently.  I would go in with very high expectations.

If anyone with large good quality high efficiency speakers would like to try that,  I'd be interested in the results.  Could a $140 Class D amp be a reasonable alternative to a 10X or more pricey tube amp that would normally be assigned the job?  Inquiring minds want to know!    The Fosi V3 with upgrade power supply is only $140 on Amazon and easily returnable.

$100 to $200 Pioneer portable dsd player and a pair of $100 to $200 Sony studio monitor headphones and I would be very happy.

The gear listed in my system (sans cables, tubes, power conditioning, surge protection, the rack and custom shelves) was purchased for around $1300.

Love this system and have been using it for 20 years now.

The mini system I use @ the computer (Sharp SD-EX111/Polk RT15i) was purchased for $88.50.

$75 for the Sharp on closeout (had been $500) and $13.50 for the speakers @ a local thrift ($15 less my senior discount;-).

I owned/drove a Citroen DS-19 for 8-9 years and the cost of doing so (including the purchase price, annual insurance/registration fees and maintenance) came in @ around $10K.

When I compare that car to an equipment rack or a cable selling for around the same price ($10K) things become both more confused and more clear @ the same time.

I find it difficult to judge anything by its cost as we all have our different takes on "value".

The following link shows a DIY system that definitely cost more the the $88.50 I spent on the mini-system.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/DHGjFdnGT_Q

DeKay

I wonder if anyone has sought to downgrade their system, not to save money or because they needed the money, but because of the idea that living more simply will force them to focus more on the music.

This would be the Henry David Thoreau approach to audio -- to make it more meaningful by abandoning the quest for better sound. 

Because if I could focus just on the music, then why would I want to go back to thinking of ways it could be better? Just for myself, this is what I think about.

Yes 30 years ago. 

@hilde45

I was reading Walden Pond a few years ago and shocked at what a ridiculous book it was to me. I am an adventurer and outdoors enthusiast… but that was silly to me. The idea of taking all the incredible effort and investment I have put in my system and going backwards is completely anathema to me, as was the silly little book. Now Anna Karenina, that’s a book.

@ghdprentice To each his own. A few things Thoreau had right, in my view, was that progress is often oversold, people allow themselves to be hurried by forces they might not really approve of, and simplicity is too easily tossed aside. In other words, he emphasized a profound respect for experience. That's something I agree with. But to each his own. 

I cannot say that i will abandon the quest for better sound... Then i guess i am like ghdprentice on this...😊

But lacking money i focussed in the past my attention on low cost improvements neglected generally by most...

Anyway i cannot say, even if like ,as hilde45, the contemplative view of Thoreau a lot, I cannot say that i could ever downgrade by spiritual and minimalistic ethical imperative; in the opposite the way the music experience became immersive now for me ,PASSED A SPECIFIC ACOUSTIC SATISFACTION TRESHOLD made very easy for me to forgot the never ending audiophile quest for better sound.... Music is so powerful with not too much limitations in the acoustic front now, that any upgrade appear to me even if possible if not useless, not necessary at all ... But saying that i am conscious too that tempted by some revolutionary product as the BACCH filters i will purchase it right now if i could do it...

It is my paradoxical attitude...No need of anything but open to some REAL upgrade...

Very interesting suggestion... Thanks...

I would like to try it but my small speakers are  self powered.... And i just discovered that active speakers will be my next move ....

I listen intensively on my headphone because they are top and very hard to beat...

I listen casually on the small self powered  speakers without feeling any deep lacking  even in the bass ( i had no deep bass for sure)

Would love to try the new Fosi V3 with a pair of large high quality high efficiency speakers that I do not own currently. I would go in with very high expectations.

 

If anyone with large good quality high efficiency speakers would like to try that, I’d be interested in the results. Could a $140 Class D amp be a reasonable alternative to a 10X or more pricey tube amp that would normally be assigned the job? Inquiring minds want to know! The Fosi V3 with upgrade power supply is only $140 on Amazon and easily returnable.

I never try to downgrade my system, but I am continuously looking for ways to improve it mainly by taking advantage of real technological advancements that always happen over time and that can deliver more for less.

"I would like to try it but my small speakers are self powered.... And i just discovered that active speakers will be my next move ."

Aren't powered speakers the same as active speakers? Am I missing something?

In the past few months I've sold off an incredibly good dac, an amazing phono stage, and now I'm without vinyl for the foreseeable future until I managed to find another really good photo stage when I have the money. Right now my system consists of- all used - aragnarok 2 integrated, and Oppo 105, a Gumby, and reference 3A decapo speakers. Witty until it's time as a beautiful VPI turntable with a Hana cartridge. Take away the last two components and you have used a system that sounds absolutely incredible for about 1500. So no, it's not $1,000 but it's pretty close and truthfully, take away the Gumby DAC and just use the oppos on board DAC, and you would have a system for about a thousand that sounds phenomenal. And yes, I've had systems that measure in the five figures total and truthfully this one sounds to my ears just as good.

I like so much my self powered small speakers that active speakers will be my next move...

Is it clearer?

english is not my first language then i apologize...😊

"I would like to try it but my small speakers are self powered.... And i just discovered that active speakers will be my next move ."

Aren’t powered speakers the same as active speakers? Am I missing something?

@mahgister ....

...for a moment I thought I'd fell into an alt universe AG....familiar posters, suddenly posting in ways, means, and mentalities that....make Perfect Sense.... 😏 *L*

"huh?!"

...just teasing.... ;)

Of course one can have their audible cake and eat it up without a 3rd mortgage...

At the end of the day, you only need to please yourself, avoid the rollercoaster of major monies on 'sorta sota' as defined by others.

You spring the trap, get the gadget, later repeat the cycle for whatever reason, rationale, or just the 'can I make this Better?' 

Only to find you've only made it Different....good, bad, in the gray middle, or gone 'black' in both regards....the end product in sound or your new 'tude towards it.

My recent foray to the P.E. Speaker Design Contest was an 'illuminating' experience on certain levels...

- I've never really had the opportunity to 'hang' with a bevy of 'philes, esp. 2.5 days worth.... a 'treat' of many flavors', to be honest.

- Yes, we all love what we're up to....similarities, differences...no surprises there.

- That which what is loved, and shared?

- Not as different as one might think.  Different 'voices' towards the same end...

...just as much as us.  Oh, sure...some 'clunkers', a few 'stand-outs'...

But an amazing amount of Same; nuanced in many fractional fashions, but low $/high$/plain Jane'd/Finely Wrought....

Driven by the same kit, dB'd and level set....

The difference is the room and the ears heard by.

"If it makes you happy...."

Nothing else matters.

It's Friday.

Have a pleasant weekend, y'all.

Speaking of Thoreau, Steve reichert's "Gramophone Dreams" column in this month's Stereophile pretty much highlights the unctuous, boujee lifestyle some audiophiles live. (is this the article you referred to, @kota1 ?) . He was visiting a friend who lived near Walden Pond and had had a six- or seven-figure custom designed listening room built onto his existing home to house his six/seven figure audio system. The column was something out of the events preceding the French Revolution, with the 1% enjoying their canapes and politely applauding after each track was played. Sweet Jesus. As @mapman pointed out, many, many people can barely make ends meet, much less entertain even a $1000 sound system should they actually want one. And as for Walden, @hilde45 , the column mentioned (probably tongue in cheek) how even Thoreau would have wanted that speaker setup. Please.

I've rarely read such an out of touch and pretentious column in that magazine. 

@simao 

This is the room I was referring too, this guy is a manufacturer so I get the overkill, but I think this was for his personal space:

https://youtu.be/nEqFtx7ocHY?feature=shared

Interesting- the OP approached it from the bottom up seeking a minimum amount to satisfaction, while my journey was top down by listening to very best sound I can find, then try to replicate with the least amount if sonic compromises but within my budget…which often slips