Thanks...

Our satisfaction level reflect an objective threshold of perception and knowledge a limited one but a real one ...

It is generally way less costlier to learn acoustic and mechanical and electrical embeddings than to purchase an upgrade ...

The objective/subjective extended zone of diminushing returns contain our own potential ENDING POINT of objective/subjective diminishing returns in the ratio perceived S.Q. versus the money invested ......

The search for perfection reflect often a subjective illusion when focussed merely on the gear design search by itself instead of focussing on the necessary learning of the way to embed each components optimally and synergetically in the system/desk/room/house/ ears BEFORE upgrading if we are not satisfied at this point ...

If you search externally from your room acoustic experience with what you already own without optimizing it electruically , mechanically and especially acoustically, and if you look for "the very best sound you can find" from a mere piece of gear you will fall in all probability  for the bottomless pit of perfection marketing trap instead of touching the relative ceiling of your acoustical satisfaction point...

Then the bottom up approach is the only one compatible with a real learning/experimenting journey...The top down approach is good for customers with no budget limits and no time to invest in the learning of acoustic and electrical and mechanical basis...

Comparing "the sound" of separated components by upgrading is not a real acoustic learning but a consumers relative  learnings about different branded names... We dont learn what is "timbre" and soundstage and imaging and holography and dynamic and transients or about the sound sources dimensions (ASW)and the listener envelopment (LV) in acoustic experience by mere purchasing but by experimenting in our room with what we already have ...

Interesting- the OP approached it from the bottom up seeking a minimum amount to satisfaction, while my journey was top down by listening to very best sound I can find, then try to replicate with the least amount if sonic compromises but within my budget…which often slips

@mahgister ”…It is generally way less costlier to learn acoustic and mechanical and electrical embeddings than to purchase an upgrade ...”.

Sure… but It really depends on your lifestyle. When I was working I typically worked more than sixty hours a week for the half time I was not out of the country. I made good money in my career… what I did not have was time. So, while I enjoyed extensive research while traveling… there was simply no reason not to buy good quality equipment.

You are perfectly right... If i was in your shoes and situation i would have act exactly as you did...And i will own the audio system you painstakingly assemble over decades which is a high end top one ...😊

But I had no money and some time to spend in audio studies after retirement...It was a luck too...my luck... Then i faced this hobby more from the bottom up than from top products upside down , by the fate of  my situation and limits in money..

But many people are very limited in their budget as i was and had time to do research in audio and acoustics etc .. I spoke for them...

i never claimed that my satisfying audio systems compare in actual  quality to yours...I only claimed that mechanical, electrical, and acoustical embeddings control put a relatively low cost well chosen system on a level of minimal satisfaction which would have been impossible with only these low cost components without their optimization... Your high cost system also as you already know had benefit from acoustical, mechanical and electrical embeddings control  in a huge way if you had done your job right ...I think you had reading your posts..

For me musical and acoustical satisfaction is possible passed some minimal or optimal threshold...After that exist different quality levels of experience for sure but at very high cost compared to the minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold with a specific system of relatively low cost or the optimal one with any system at any cost ...

Here 2 videos which perfectly explain my position and experience:

High end audio, is it really better ? Steve Huff opinion and experience

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMO-rZUUq7Q&t=962s

Why Steve Huff sold his end games audio components ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDUQaqZRpnU

@mahgister ”…It is generally way less costlier to learn acoustic and mechanical and electrical embeddings than to purchase an upgrade ...”.

Sure… but It really depends on your lifestyle. When I was working I typically worked more than sixty hours a week for the half time I was not out of the country. I made good money in my career… what I did not have was time. So, while I enjoyed extensive research while traveling… there was simply no reason not to buy good quality equipment.

@mahgister 

👍

My wife and I were supposed to be in Cape Cod visiting her mother this week, but my wife caught COVID on the plane coming back from Europe.  The weather here in the Midwest is glorious right now.  I had already taken the week off, so I am hanging outside on the back deck to get away from her and catching upon on some work on the laptop.  I have a Sony Bluetooth Speaker that cost around $250 that picked up for less than half of that at one of the online discount sites.  It blows the pants off the ancient B&W Patio speakers.  I played a couple of different versions of Beethoven Pastoral Symphony yesterday, just perfect music to accompany the day, and it was heavenly.  So yes, one can achieve Audio Nirvana on the cheap if all the stars are aligned 

Thanks for the beautiful and moving  story...

My very best to you...

My wife and I were supposed to be in Cape Cod visiting her mother this week, but my wife caught COVID on the plane coming back from Europe.  The weather here in the Midwest is glorious right now.  I had already taken the week off, so I am hanging outside on the back deck to get away from her and catching upon on some work on the laptop.  I have a Sony Bluetooth Speaker that cost around $250 that picked up for less than half of that at one of the online discount sites.  It blows the pants off the ancient B&W Patio speakers.  I played a couple of different versions of Beethoven Pastoral Symphony yesterday, just perfect music to accompany the day, and it was heavenly.  So yes, one can achieve Audio Nirvana on the cheap if all the stars are aligned

My recommendation for all is to be as open minded and receptive as possible when looking at all the different relatively cost-effective ways one might satisfy their hifi music yearnings these days,

It’s not like the old glory days of analog 2-channel hifi, like back in the 1960s and 1970s, anymore. If one thinks only in terms that defined things 50 years ago there is much one may miss out on in regards to maximizing one’s investment in good music. Technology has come a long way, opened up many new doors, and taken on many different forms. It just has! Don’t miss out!

Yes it is true especially in the speakers case and in dac...And in amplification too...

Self powered speakers can be very good...

Dac at low cost can be very good... More so than a cheap turntable even if at the top as some had experienced the turntable is better... But i cannot verify that at the top, the one claiming this own a 500,000 bucks system...😊 I dont doubt him for sure but he will not contradict me about the sound quality value of low cost dac in low cost good system compared to cheap turntable in low cost system ...

Sound experience  is mostly acoustic at the end , and first gear designed but only first... Acoustic experience and perception  is the recording  core and the listening  periphery...Electronics is in the middle as a microphone or as speakers ...

My recommendation for all is to be as open minded and receptive as possible when looking at all the different relatively cost-effective ways one might satisfy their hifi music yearnings these days,

It’s not like the old glory days of analog 2-channel hifi, like back in the 1960s and 1970s, anymore. If one thinks only in terms that defined things 50 years ago there is much one may miss out on in regards to maximizing one’s investment in good music. Technology has come a long way, opened up many new doors, and taken on many different forms. It just has! Don’t miss out!

The bass extension of the M-Audio Av40 4 inches driver is described as : 85 hertz...

In 50 hertz test tone i feel the sound... 😁

What did i did ?

I increase the volume of the rear port-hole with full lenght straws (17 ) glued together and put inside...I  had modified the volume and neck of what is called in acoustic an Helmholtz resonator... each speakers is a resonator... ( i tuned 100 resonators in my past acoustic room by the way )

The highs are clear as crystals also , i help the focus and separation with a cardboard empty paper roll around the twitter...I know it is not esthetical! But i dont give a damn... And i am proud of my homemade acoustic tricks...

Imaging is very improved now... Soundstage too...

The mids and human voice are fluids and perfect and saxophone feel as one real one ...

Cost of speakers 12 years ago : 100 bucks

I just test the bass with this:

And i felt the bass physically, i just listen to this right now and i miss nothing :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ0mBQsrbqc&list=PLnQJF3Qi_4_DT_NKFgfSy7pLhHb9W9Dka&index=107

I damped the box with concrete and isolate them and use my homemade designed "Golden plates" on the cables connections and dac to improve the texture of the sound... ( shungite+ copper plate ) ... I put them in a dedicated acoustic corner...

These small active box are so good now that even Steve Guttenberg who reviewed them and gave them 8 on 10 , 12 years ago, will be amazed...I was not so much amazed BEFORE my embeddings controls this month... I had no more any other choice of speakers this is why i thought about their optimization... I succeeded ... What is a basic good small box is now a fantastic cheap pair of speakers almost audiophile... I will not upgrade because i am afraid to do so UNDER 1000 bucks...

There is no relation between the sound right out of the box and now...

Then in audio before upgrading you must embed all components right and surprize! upgrading is no more so appealling or necessary...

No subwoofer is needed for me and for most music...

One of my best audio eureka moments was earlier this year.  My system is based on "carefully curated components" within a reasonable budget.  I have been through at least 20 amp/preamp combinations and ultimately settled on Convergent SL-1, a few choices of SS amps and tube amps, Magnepan 3.6R, and sub $1k dac or turntable to feed the SL-1.  Earlier this year a friend and I visited the local McIntosh dealer, where we were treated to a demo of a Moon Audio DAC, Mc amp, and huge Sonus Faber speakers.  Our host played a very familiar Dave Grusin tune.  While the $250m system was very enjoyable, I left the store feeling very good about my system.  Perhaps my ears were the limiting factor, but it's nice to find the plateau where the gear satisfies the ear and the focus is then on discovering the music.  

Thanks for this personal anecdote that if meditated will help others to cure their audio disease bug and push them on the road to satisfaction with their ears at the wheel instead of the higher possible  price tags in their head ...

I am impressed by the way people learn how to create their audio system at relatively low cost/ price tag ratio...And by the way they learn to listen and trust their ears and acoustics...

Their system impress me way less than their creativity...

my best to you ...

One of my best audio eureka moments was earlier this year. My system is based on "carefully curated components" within a reasonable budget. I have been through at least 20 amp/preamp combinations and ultimately settled on Convergent SL-1, a few choices of SS amps and tube amps, Magnepan 3.6R, and sub $1k dac or turntable to feed the SL-1. Earlier this year a friend and I visited the local McIntosh dealer, where we were treated to a demo of a Moon Audio DAC, Mc amp, and huge Sonus Faber speakers. Our host played a very familiar Dave Grusin tune. While the $250m system was very enjoyable, I left the store feeling very good about my system. Perhaps my ears were the limiting factor, but it’s nice to find the plateau where the gear satisfies the ear and the focus is then on discovering the music.

I've also heard expensive systems that sounded poorly to me, and inexpensive that were quite good...but to listen to top quality gear in a synergistically combined system, with room and all other factors discussed here well accounted for, is an incredible listening experience...the room and tweaks mentioned have long been accepted a crucial, but are often unfortunately ignored...

Your question/ statement is very subjective. I think it depends on experiences, budget and the priorities of each individual. The secret of contentment is knowing how to enjoy what you have, and to be able to lose all desire for things beyond your reach.-- Lin Yutang 

I am not so much in stoicism nor in the self control of desire ... I am not so wise ...

In audio musical experience i simply discovered how creativity make us really happy without asking for any renunciation or ascetic self control ...

Acoustics knowledge ( + mechanical and electrical noise and vibration controls for sure ) can make a 1000 bucks system so good on all acoustic factors that we are able to pass what i called  the minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold ...my actual system is not a stoic stop gap at all, it is completely satisfying even it it cannot be high end top or passed  the maximal acoustical satisfaction threshold ...

my motto is :

Acoustics science rule the gear not the reverse ...

Then the secret of contentment is staying creative till your death and investing  yourself creatively in what you have but which  is used in the wrong way ... Learn how to use it in the optimal way ...

( As an example i modify thanks to Helmholtz knowledge  the rear porthole of my speakers and the result is astonishing )

The secret of contentment is knowing how to enjoy what you have, and to be able to lose all desire for things beyond your reach.-- Lin Yutang

Making the most with the less is true audio knowledge...

You are missing out a bit. There is a true audio savant in industry named Andrew Jones who offered charity for many years. It may be practically impossible for other dudes to eek out quality sound with non-existent budgets like Andrew. You probably owe it to yourself to try one of his speakers. He uses Yamaha amps primarily when voicing his speakers.

Elac Debut 2.0 bookshelf speakers, msrp ~350 usd

Yamaha A-S301 integrated amp., msrp ~350 usd

Get them used for way less. It may be a big upgrade from what you currently have.

I bought a pair of the Andrew Jones designed speakers (ELAC Uni-Fi 2.0 UB52 Bookshelf Speakers) for an extra room while they were on sale for $419.98 recently and must say that this guy really knows what he's doing.  No speaker has impressed me this much in decades.  I did buy the Debut 2.0 before those and sent them back though.  The difference between the two is dramatic.

Thanks very much to the two of you ....Ellajeanelle and deep_333...

I put them on my memory as a first choice USED ...

because my budget is limited ... They will cost me new at least 8 times the price of my actual completely satisfying one ... Even if i dont doubt that they will be better after my optimization process ...😊

But to give you more information , my actual self powered speakers , which i modified goes to 50 hertz as the Elac with a smaller woofer by the way ... Clear, not boomy with natural relatively good timbre and they work fine for now ...So much i dont need a sub in my acoustical corner treated and designed for them ...

If they broke i will go with a used Elac for many reasons + your two informed recommendations ...And they are relatively small then perfect for me ... And i can work the porthole and design it for my ears as i did with my low cost self powered good speakers which improved tremendously with this and vibration/resonance controls and shielding and deceasing of the noise floor level with my homemade plate ...

I thank you a lot for the kind advice ...

Making the most with the less is true audio knowledge...

You are missing out a bit. There is a true audio savant in industry named Andrew Jones who offered charity for many years. It may be practically impossible for other dudes to eek out quality sound with non-existent budgets like Andrew. You probably owe it to yourself to try one of his speakers. He uses Yamaha amps primarily when voicing his speakers.

Elac Debut 2.0 bookshelf speakers, msrp ~350 usd

Yamaha A-S301 integrated amp., msrp ~350 usd

Get them used for way less. It may be a big upgrade from what you currently have.

I bought a pair of the Andrew Jones designed speakers (ELAC Uni-Fi 2.0 UB52 Bookshelf Speakers) for an extra room while they were on sale for $419.98 recently and must say that this guy really knows what he's doing.  No speaker has impressed me this much in decades.  I did buy the Debut 2.0 before those and sent them back though.  The difference between the two is dramatic.

I saw Andrew yesterday and a few other brilliant music obsessed builders of great gear… most make an effort at the absolute best they know how to do and trickle down….. God bless them.

Interesting to see where Elac goes now that A Jones is long gone...I realize they've been around a long time, and I believe have a separate design team for their sold in Europe speakers...

@ghdprentice IF you don’t mind, i intend to copyright Outward Bound Audio…. ha….

Love it….. i too have had very similar experience far from civilization…..

I went from a Revel Salon 1 speaker in a secluded home in the hills, where I could blast as loud as wanted to an apartment next to the beach. I had a $300 AudioEngineUSA  desktop speaker for 5 years at the beach apartment.

I enjoyed the heck out of my system during that time because the alternative was no music, and that would be no fun.

you can go to shopgoodwill.com and buy components worth 20 times the price on ebay. For a 1000 bucks you can build an incredible system. 

And not just any brands but high end audiophile gear. Of course it takes time, and a bit of luck. But not much $

Thanks for this useful advices to beginners ...grislybutter yyzsantabarbara

I will add, you must, once this is done, read enough about how to controls vibration/resonance , electrical noise floor of the gear/room/house and especially acoustics concepts not just room acoustic ... Without this applied  even with high end components the S.Q. will never be optimal if not even good ...

agreed @mahgister the system without basic understanding of these principles may as well be a JBL pill

😊 Indeed!

Interesting to see where Elac goes now that A Jones is long gone...I realize they've been around a long time, and I believe have a separate design team for their sold in Europe speakers...

@jl35 ...It looks like they've accomplished their mission, i.e., Strategically hire a big name like AJones to make themselves known in the North American market.... They were practically unknown in NA prior to that. They've been selling an enormous amount of speakers to hometheater dudes in NA as well since he also designed matching center channels, atmos speakers, etc in addition to his hifi speakers. North America has always been the biggest market for hometheater due to larger size of houses, basement spaces, etc. Hifi guys buy 2 speakers...Home theater dudes buy 12! 😁