Dealer affiliations and attitudes, assumptions and lack of respectful engagement in audio.

I always have to question whether nostalgia is looking through rose tinted gasses. There are times when I gaze back longingly to the days when I had far more person to person contact with audiophiles, no internet. There have always been smug know it all types, you just didn't encounter them as often as you do on this platform they call the internet where one can say whatever at top of mind with a few keystrokes. 

Perhaps this may be informative, I work in family business and we developed a business relationship with a furniture maker. Well it turns out this guy formerly worked for many years at one of the top audio shops in the area, this would have been 80's into 90's. My my, this guy had a visceral hatred of audiophiles, years of dealing with smug know it alls had obviously taken its toll! Whenever he related stories to me I could just picture some of the clients he had to deal with and chuckle to myself, got to have a mild temperament and/or thick skin to deal with some people, this guy sure had lost both.

There are very many unhappy people in the world and their behavior is the clue.

@cleeds so true.  

There are very many unhappy people in the world and their behavior is the clue.

Welcome to today's good ol' U.S. of A!!!!!

I know I hate the political threads. Most of my posts get removed from the moderator. I’m pretty sure I have a severe case of DJT Derangement syndrome, it’s mainly manic, bipolar symptoms with extreme outbursts. I do apologize for these outburst. Just have a hard time getting a hold of lithium to keep me calm.  

Careful with the lithium, @gkelly , it has some nasty side effects and interacts badly with many other meds.  Anyway, that syndrome you referred to is healthy and normal people seem to be afflicted by it.

I have largely been a solitary audiophile for the last fifty years. Typically good customer / friends with one or two high end audio store owners for most of the time... that is four people over forty years. That was my only contact with the outside world. I would go ten years without someone coming over to my house to hear my system. So, I may lack perspective. 

I joined a long distance bicycling forum about fifteen years ago. Very helpful and civil guys... great forum... no ego, just helpful. I joined a camera forum about ten years ago... speaking of an argumentative and egotistical... worse than high end audio. I started participating in this forum about five years ago. It seems better now... a few of the argumentative posters of the past are gone. But there are a few new ones. It feels better to me than say three or four years ago. But I could be wrong... I skip over some of the hostile stuff. 

Each of us helps to set the tone. If we just ignore insulting and inappropriate behavior hopefully they will go away. 

What you are describing is not peculiar to audio. It could be sports, politics or whatever. Grumpy old men take up tribal/identity positions. It's increasingly difficult to explore ideas freely. There's a tendency to play the man rather the ball.

...more like "Welcome to today’s good ol’ internet!!!!!"

Too many people treat this hobby and other hobbies, like politics and religion.  They are right in every way and everyone else is some sort of drooling slob.  I wish it was more like the car culture where the vast majority of people can respect and appreciate another persons car, even if it might not be their cup of tea.

We may not be able control others bad behavior but we can control ourselves and choose to just not engage in their garbage.

Edit:  Well that didn't take long as a couple of people just showed us, above.  

Don’t know about all that but can say in confidence that respect is typically earned not owed so if there is a problem there perhaps we all need to take a look in the mirror meaning society as a whole. 

Car culture people more gentle natured, really. The Alfa Romeo and Mustang forums I belong to can get very competitive and sometimes very nasty. Ducati forum mostly good people, nothing to prove. Nicest group of people I've encountered over many decades are classic Brit car enthusiasts, owners, something about slow cars and gentle people. I've found the faster the car the more you have competition between people, pretty much like high end audio.

ghdprentice

Each of us helps to set the tone. If we just ignore insulting and inappropriate behavior hopefully they will go away.  +1

It is sad, we all have brains and so we can chose to have an enjoyable discussion if we want.  But it is not so common. The advice above is helpful in that regard. 

Op ,I  absolutely agree with your thoughts and I’m guilty at times of being a butthead. My opinion is the problem is caused by our social evolution with the internet , over population and a conditioned impatience and a continual need for instant gratification. Take texting while driving , at first it was kids and now everyone does it. The town I live in is extremely mean by nature. Here it’s about not stopping for traffic lights that change to red. Every single light change has someone going through a few seconds too late. It’s interesting because now when you get a green light nobody goes for a few seconds. So the amount of movement time is essentially the same. Living in Fresno there is a popular T-Shirt that is a hand pointing a revolver at you with the caption “ Fresno , see it like a Native “. It’s just off the hook here. Anyway all our social ills carry over to chat sites. Being in recovery for over 30 years I have to rely on my Reprograming with suggestions like “ Look for the similarities, not the differences “. Or “ If you Spot it, You Got it “. I was told there is a God, and I’m not it. With all the experience I have and the instruction I’ve received, I can and still do occasionally spit fire . We live on the internet and are never together in person and are conditioned for instant gratification, as if my opinion actually matters. As a former shop owner and a professional businessman, you are painfully aware of our social ills. What I would like to share is that a few months ago I went into a showroom and adjacent warehouse that used to be Sun Stereo in Fresno. I followed the salesman showing us Quartzite for our remodel. I suddenly stopped in the doorway of the old showroom and asked him and my wife to please indulge me for a moment. I stopped looked around then closed my eyes. I had a perfect image of what I saw standing in that spot almost 50 years ago. It was absolute joy being in my “ Old Happy Spot “. So thanks for posting and bringing me back to that place of joy. If I could only grab a couple of those vintage receivers, a Nakamichi  Dragon and some JBL 300’s while in the “ Way Back Machine “. Regards , Mike B. 

+1 Calvin, well put. And we can all use a reset from time to time.

Since my retirement, I have made a concerted effort to rid myself of what I saw as "flaws" in the way I lived my life and interacted with the people I love.

It wasn't that I was abusive or someone that never got invited to dinner. It was just me fine tuning my life.

My motto has been to "make better choices". Whether it is stopping when the light turns yellow or not having giving up gluten or drastically reducing my alcohol consumption, the changes have been 100% positive.

I guess what I am trying to say is that we all have the capacity to change. If you find yourself stepping over the line, just dial it back a bit.

As Mort Sahl once said,

"If you don't think you are a jerk, you probably are."

The nastiness we see is just a small slice of our larger society.  What I see almost daily is that people on TV, the internet, social media etc are nasty and cruel.  Yet in real life, at the market, the gym, or wherever in-person, we are pretty good, polite, helpful, even cheerful.  Just saying....

tony1954.  agreed.  and it is easier to be nice than nasty.

I posted this because of how I’ve seen us go after each other from time to time.  It just Audiogon either. Was on another forum and a response to me was filled with assumptions. The person was a first time responder to me. He was off base on every point he tried to make. That made me realize how many ass sumptions we can make about people we don’t know! 

There are several audio forums where a vast majority of interactions are civil and pleasant. Folks contributing their experience and helping other folks who are in need of some assistance.

To be fair, these tend to be specialized forums (fora?) focused on DIY or on a single brand or some arcane specialty. Even here on Audiogon, you'll find tube-related threads to be rather sunny and tranquil places.

As far as the general-interest threads on here, too many are like this one: just lit matches masquerading as faux outrage.

On the contrary I have found this to be around a thoughtful and reflective thread. My own observation was that the breakdown in common civility began in the 1980s with the rise of Fox news and and other media that, shockingly, encouraged interviews where people actually talked over each other did not politely listen to each other’s comments. At that period of my life I was active with a lot of public meetings and gradually began to notice the same behavior manifesting itself in small town public meetings. People were emulating what they were watching on TV and thinking it appropriate. Ironically I think much of what we have considered common courtesy in modes of address stems from periods when the consequences could be dire. I am thinking of the American West where men commonly were sidearms and earlier in Europe when every gentleman carried a sword as part of his attire. It was important to not give offense unintentionally.

I find the best way to weed out those that do not conduct themselves with respect is to ignore them, however hard it might be. I wrote a dealer selling a pair of magico speakers. I am knowledgeable about different speaker brands but I am by no means an expert or a statistician type that remembers every detail that he comes across. I simply asked if these were the latest model or an older model. His response was "These are not $80k speakers for sale for $15K". That was it. I did not respond or point out that I was a customer in the market for speakers. Since that interaction I have spent $20k on speakers and none of that business went to him.  His loss for being an ass and not a good business model for future success so I guess he will be one of those people out of the business complaining about how hard it is to sell. 

@benjamminva i try to be mindful when people call me for items.  A lot of guys don’t understand you don’t know who is on the other end of the phone.  Respect everyone. 

I haven’t dealt with a brick and mortar audio store in decades. I decided 3 decades ago to travel to all the audio shows (CES, RMAF, and many others) every year to see what’s in the market, look at the technology the manufacturer implemented, and listen to many systems to compare what sounds good. I have a couple of friends that own audio stores and if I was looking at their products, I would be a customer of theirs. We had a lot of high end dealers in the big towns I lived in and many of the owners/employees were terrible to work with. 1 dealer kicked out a couple of our audio club members because he thought they weren’t going to buy anything. Everybody in the club stopped going to this dealer. Dealers  in these threads tend to build up a certain piece of equipment and then the last sentence they would state they are a dealer for this particular brand. Of course they are going to push something they carry.  I attend shows so I can talk to many manufacturers to ask any questions I may have. 
 

I’ve been in a few car clubs and let me tell you, a few of them had many aholes in them. In the Porsche club I was in, the racing instructor in the group came up to a couple of us before we started our go cart session, and told us if we didn’t pull over for him, he would put us in the wall. I put his A$$ in the wall. You know the joke:      ”what’s the difference between a porcupine and a Porsche? The porcupine has its pricks on the outside!”. I’m in a car club now with many high end cars and everybody is down to earth, no issues, a little jabbing each other, much more friendly, maybe because we are older now and most of the testosterone has been depleted.

Over the decades of joining and leaving forums like this, I've found that there are always a handful of people that love to troll. This was true of a cycling forum I used to be on in the early aughts. Inevitably, I learn to ignore them and engage with the those that might be able to part with the wisdom I seek. What I also realized is that phrasing questions or opinions in the right way so as not to come off as smug/aggressive/troll-like is something learned. If you have to deal with prickly clients or consultants in the "real world," you learn how to communicate in a clear manner that can be informative and diffuse a situation.

However, on forums like this, tone can be hard to determine. And oftentimes, sarcasm isn't readily apparent. That too is a skill that you can't get over-night. It's like the on-line discourse of Gen-Z and Millenials that think punctuation like periods and exclamation points and thumbs-up emojis are like a slap across the face.

At the end of the day, social media has removed the veil from many people's abilities to be calm, respectful of others' opinions, and being tactful.

Even in a post pointing out that this has devolved from a respectful audio chat site to something else people can't help themselves but make it political. Do you not get enough about politics on every other site you visit? I personally hear enough about politics and would like a break when it comes to hobbies and interests. 

Money breeds entitlement for most. Plus advertising/marketing preaches buy the best be the best b..s..t.  Our brains are easily manipulated not to mention "success" of click chasers and national leadership. Are there any citizens left after Bill Moyers exited this mortal coil? Maybe Ken Burns. 

It seems that when it gets nasty here, a lot of people resort to standard arguments or some variation on those themes. Avoiding these might be a good start:

1. You don’t hear what I hear because your system is crap, too cheap and not good enough to hear what I hear.” Sort of the audiophile equivalent of saying “your wife is ugly“. Spending more money doesn’t make you right.

2. you are wrong because you just spend a lot of money on equipment to show off so you are an audio fool. My $500 speakers outperform your $30,000 speakers, and I know this even if I’ve never heard your speakers. Spending less money, doesn’t make you right.

3. Any argument in which someone announces something is objectively the “best.” Tubes are the best, solid state is the best, this topology is the best, this brand is the best, this service is the best. I think there is no objective “best” In this hobby. What’s best to you may not be to me. It tends to be pretty subjective. It’s like saying I have tasted many ice cream flavors and have decades of experience tasting ice cream and Butter pecan is the best..  (Of course, all intelligent people know that butter pecan actually is the best)

4. If you don’t hear what I hear, it means your ears are not good enough.. We are blessed to have audiologists who can diagnose people they have never seen.

5. i’m right because I’ve been buying equipment for more decades than you have been buying equipment. To be sure, experience can be quite valuable. I really do Think it matters if there is some context for it to matter concerning the specific discussion. But longevity, in and of itself, isn’t the measure of accuracy. I’m a fan of the Pittsburgh Pirates, one of the oldest franchises in baseball. Don’t tell me the Pittsburgh Pirates know how to run a major league baseball team.

 Otherwise, all we need to do is find  a105 year old audiophile and refer all the difficult questions to him. 

6. Anybody that believes in measurements is an idiot because they don’t even listen to the music.

7. Anybody that isn’t guided solely by measurements is an idiot because they deny science. 

8. weighing in with a firm opinion about a product that you’ve never heard, or have only heard in passing.

9. responding to an inquiry with the assertion that the product which you just happen to sell is absolutely the best for that situation, even if your product was not the subject of the inquiry.

10. to me, this is the worst, and you see it occasionally. Somebody buys a brand new set of speakers, amp, whatever. They post about it with obvious pride. And then someone says, “oh, you should’ve bought this. Your choice is really not very good. Those are going to be too bright, too dull, too  whatever.“ Why in the world, would you want to step on someone’s joy?

if we avoided these sort of arguments, maybe we would be left with more civil discourse based on actual experiences and mutual respect. But that’s just my opinion, and I’m wrong all the time. I’m sure I’ve violated my own rules a time or two. Plus, it’s the Internet and anyone can say whatever they want.

For now.

This will help.

Time well spent:

https://www.dignity.us

if we avoided these sort of arguments, maybe we would be left with more civil discourse based on actual experiences and mutual respect. But that’s just my opinion, and I’m wrong all the time.

@kerrybh 

Not this time though. You nailed it right on the head!

@devinplombier - I thought it was Rupert Murdoch and his son who enable FN to be what it is? While it might not be THE source of the problem, I believe that it is a large contributing factor, as it is where a large number of people get most, if not all of their information from; they don't have a lot of competition.

I don't remember the 70's as being particularly 'respectful' - I was in my 20's - but everybody has their own experiences. 

Can't a person wish against bad things in the abstract and not be censored? 

Sorry @hilde45 , I guess not when those things include the words that rhyme with convicted melons.  When the snowflakes read that word, they automatically think of you-know-who.

I have always lived in small towns.  Like, thats John because he is driving "A".  People are way more polite and considerate when both you and John don’t pass each other like a jerk on the hiway and end up at the same work parking lot, store whatever.  Even face to face interactions between strangers are typically civil most places.  Although I have never been to AXOMA...

Nastiness is way easier to express as has been pointed out.  Unhappy folks pissy posts for sure.  But people have always been opinionated illogical, well, people.  About 8 billion versions of the truth on the planet by my last count. Reading the Summer of 1927, all about the world that year.  To read some of the official policies  and public opinions of the time make today look tame.  So nothing new under the sun.

Just read this quote yesterday : Comparison is the thief of joy.  

Peace

@calvinj - 25 years here for me.  What was previously a welcome escape and a place to learn stuff has too often become a disappointing waste of time, sort of like watching a train wreck on Groundhog Day.  Conflict is good when it leads to a positive resolution but a lot of what I read here lately is just scab picking. Unfortunately, spending time here needs to drop lower on my priority list.

Unfortunately, spending time here needs to drop lower on my priority list.

@mitch2 

I for one hope you might reconsider. Your contributions are excellent and add a lot of value to this forum. But I see your point.

@devinplombier - Thank you, I appreciate your comment. I am not going anywhere and I will still make contributions, but I need to stay away from the sh_t shows and negativity.  I have more valuable (to me) and positive things to invest my time on.  It is really a value proposition for me - we all vote with our time.  I will be heading out on a long bike trip soon where I can recharge and realign my priorities.

@mitch2 @devinplombier i agree. I literally had a guy get mad because I couldn’t send him a demo cable fast enough.  Goes crazy. Seems our cables evn though he secretly likes them. Proceeds to bash me every where I go just because he wasn’t prioritized fast enough.  Left a bad taste in my mouth. What a shame. I’m not here to make enemies. I just wanna hear music and suggestions etc. Life is too short 

I think it's interesting that hidden within the comments about civility are veiled (thinly) derogatory statements about politics. Of course, one side is to blame for the lack of decorum. It has to be Fox News. Forget the fact that CNN had Crossfire long before Fox News had a presence. Unfortunately, for some they are unable to keep their politics to themselves. There is plenty of blame to go around. In my opinion one can only control their own contributions and tone. What happened to the Golden Rule? You can probably tell which way I lean but, until this post, I keep it out of here. 

Well, I had a post expressing the opinion that Fox was merely a symptom of a greater societal shift toward incivility rather than its cause. Here it is: 

Post removed Jun 30, 2025

@kerrybh  While I do not abide grandstanding or intolerance, I have sometimes responded with a polite version of your point (quoted below.) It's almost always when someone states categorically, from their perspective, that one cannot hear the difference in cables, tweaks, formats etc.

You don’t hear what I hear because your system is crap, too cheap and not good enough to hear what I hear.”

@noromance Your point makes sense to me. I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but  categorical statements in this hobby should be made, if at all, only about what the commenter hears-not what someone else hears with their ears in their system.  

Public writing has always been both a shield and weapon.  A lot of people don’t know that Thomas Jefferson silently bought a newspaper just to print crap about Washington!   The challenge of most audio forums and editorials is the unknown about the writer and their agenda as well as the real conditions of the writers system and experience.  
Brad

About 25 years ago I belonged to an email community of Jefferson Airplane fans; we all loved the same band and were mostly similar in politics and culture, but my goodness the personal savagery that would sometimes go on on there!

It's an internet/anonymity thing, in my opinion, though some threads are oases of decorum.... 

Unfortunately the internet has become a place where miserable people try and spread their misery to others. When you react and tell someone off you are giving them what they want, for you to feel badly too. If you feed the trolls they will be back.  

@kerrybh - I still haven't gotten over Bill Mazeroski's HR against the Yankees.