DarTzeel’s new direction

I would bet that 90%of the keyboard warriors have not heard any DarTzeel. They sound fantastic and their looks are stunning.

These must be daunting times for DarTzeel retailers.

@karmapolice Just how much are we talking when we say under $100k, because if you were to compare the pass labs XS 300 it might be a more fair comparison.

Let’s start with facts like the stereo amp is well under 100K not 250K. The mono amps are ridiculously expensive but it’s limited production and overkill for most systems.

As for the preamp it is very expensive but also has a great phono stage internally so no need for cable either to sep phono preamp. ...and runs off battery so don't need pricey power cable.

And until the untimely death of Jonathan tinn the US distributor many units were sold by him to loyal customers at a significant discount off MSRP if you were not filthy rich.

As for the sound of the amp it really nails the midrange and brings out more soul than most SS amps. If paired with dartzeel preamp and a speaker which is efficient or has a powered woofer it is remarkable and was far more musical than my pass labs 260.8 monoblocks [which were good and a lot cheaper but not same league]. Even my EAR 890 monoblocks bested the Pass. Again pass gets you 85 percent there and much cheaper but for transparency and emotional involvement dartzeel takes you further.

Bottom line for me is tube amps especially EAR gets you emotional connection to essence of the music at a far more friendly price point but the dartzeel is remarkable for solid state albeit pricey.

In fairness to the look of Dartzeel they are in line with other high end Swiss aesthetics .Classic gold Rolex watches for example.

@lynn_olson for ideal non reflective response cable characteristic impedance must match driver and receiver impedances.. we have to choices for coax 50/75Ohms. problem with RCA is a connecting low output impedance drivers (pre/phono/cd etc) to high (47kOhm/10pF) receiver, which generates reflections. Cable of 10ft or longer in such condition has sonic signature, such as harsh sound etc. matching source/cable/receiver impedance eliminates that.

Using medium impedance (50 to 300 ohms) for line-level interconnects is a good idea, although not suitable for modern studio practice. And medium impedance for speaker outputs (1 to 2 ohms) is going to depend on the complexity of the speaker crossover ... simpler crossovers will tolerate it, more complex crossovers will not.

I’ve played with dartzeel’s amp circuitry, and assessed overall design.. they are trying to replicate tube sound, by increasing output impedance and create sophisticated fb loop freq./phase characteristics in SS ckt. I give Dartzeel credit of 50Ohm pre/amp interconnects design, which has sense to eliminate reflections and affecting sound resonances in longer than ~3ft cables. 

Few years ago I red Geneva Switzerland Audiophile direct Accuphase A70 comparison to DartZeel NHB.. Well, Dartzeel lost!. I confirmed in my experiments that replicating tube sound by SS ckt by Dartzeel has some disadvantages, and can be used only for flatter Z/freq. speakers, while Accuphase can drive speakers from 1Ohm to 16Ohms without affecting sound much.

Thanks for this post skinzy! Sweeping generalizations about individuals of any economic status are the indication of a small mind.  

I almost quit Audiogon because of the "rich" bashing.  When in high school I mowed yards and had a paper route.  I got my first Dynaco Kit with the proceeds (I/2 of my income went to a college fund) that I soldered together and made speakers.  At that time I never dreamed I'd have the system I have today.  Many wealthy people you will never see as they live below their means.  That's why they are wealthy.  They are not "gullible" or have made all their money with bit coin.  Most just work hard and smart.

That said I don't think the uber high end products provide the level of performance commensurate with their price.  

I am not sure why he would pull all of his products from his website if he was actually coming out with a more affordable lineup.  Why would u not offer both ?  Doesn't add up.

I owned one of the original Dartzeel NHB pre amps which I bought 2nd hand, it was about 4yrs old with the built in phono. I was going to get it upgraded to V2 or trade it in for a new one but there was a very long wait time, due to part shortages apparently, so went another route.

In the UK the preamp was around 15k GBP when it came out around 2004/5. Within a few years it went up to approx 24K due to the weakness of the pound.  According to the bank of England’s inflation calculator 24K (in 2008) would be 38k in todays money. Even allowing for some improvement costs the current a price tag of 54k  is a very large increase, needless to say it puts the amp in the ultra expensive category.

In 2008 the cost of the Dart NHB was equal to the average annual income in the UK (24k). Average income is currently around 30/4k so about 60% of a new Dartzeel. No wonder they are not flying off the shelf in spite of being an excellent amp!

Jealous Jason.

Earlier I made a comment that simply said I heard that Dartzeel all in one integrated amp/streamer box at the Hifi show in socal a few months ago and that it was really good and I don't know what it costs, it's probably expensive...

I also said I like the gold finish, and I only like black, wood panel, champagne on my hifi gear and I think silver or bare aluminum is ugly ..

Apparently the audiogon mods didn't like this, they took my comment down, who the hell is censoring benign opinions about hifi equipment, tyrants get a tiny little bit of insignificant "power" and right away they like to flex control over others speech.

Maybe if I was vulgar, or rude, or way off topic I could understand .. is this audiogon mod some defender of silver electronics, and it's wrongthink to not like silver gear?? Pretty lame

I’ve heard that Dartzeel integrated amp/streamer one box set up at the audio show a few months ago and it’s fantastic .. not sure how much it costs, but one of the best one box setups in the world I would think.

Personally I love the gold finish, I only want black, wood panels, champagne or gold finish on my gear... Whenever I see hideous bare aluminum or silver is the only option it goes straight to the crap  I’d never buy part of my brain.

Dartzeel puts a disproportionate amount of time, effort, and money into developing their casework to jewelry like standards.  This is reflected in their price.  Dartzeel could “easily” put the same circuitry into a lower cost casework without sacrificing performance, thus lowering the price.  

He isn’t abandoning his statement products but looking to offer a glimpse of what they can do to a wider audience. The true test will be are they going to be high value at their price point. Remember most companies that produce statement products tend to trickle down that technology into somewhat more affordable products. 

@jasonbourne71 I don’t think bragging rights are why, an

exotic sports car would definitely be better.

Never heard of Dartzeel that I can remember. However, kind of interesting since I will be in Geneva next week. He is in Plan les Ouates, just a couple miles away. May pay them a visit if feasible. 

Complaining about how folks spend their money is for the ignorant poor, LOL

Trophies for the gullible rich to brag about to their clueless buddies.

Except for their top of the line monos, aren't their amps pretty low current for their power? Can they drive low impedance speakers?

IMHO, the super hi-end of audio has always catered to a very small group of wealthy audio enthusiasts who have the financial wherewithal to purchase whatever they want. Mostly they want to be able to purchase limited production products that will not only hold their value, but escalate in value as time goes on.

Much like the extravagant art they collect, the hi-end audio they purchase is designed to appeal both to their aesthetic, as well as to their sonic enjoyment.

And this is how these companies have been able to carve a niche out of the audio market for themselves. There’s little doubt that they will continue to thrive in the future given that even in poor economic times the well heeled always have money.

As for Dartzeel, as long as his entry level audio gear promises the same technical advantages as that of his statement line of audio products, there’s little doubt that he’ll find a market for them as well.

The oligarch market is probably saturated. This isn’t meant as a joke; with the Russians shut out of the West, there are fewer oligarchs around, so the market itself has fewer buyers today than five years ago. And it can’t be all that big ... maybe a few thousand people or less. Eventually, all of their New York, London, and Zurich mansions have $500,000 systems, and the market shrinks.

Creating a new "value" brand is difficult, since it undercuts the Veblen-good pricing model of the original brand. Choosing the appearance is even more tricky, since you don’t dare mimic the look and feel of the original product. A separate brand is about the only way to go.

Actually I think he realizes his equipment at its price point has too much competition. Other competitors are producing products without limits and he’s not going to keep playing that game. A lot of people think his equipment is butt ugly but the execution of his topology is second to none and he wants that to appeal to a broader market. I think he’s only the beginning of what other manufacturers eventually will do: come to their senses and look to produce at a lower cost.

In regards to Dartzeel. To me the really good designers are ones who can design equipment that surpasses their cost. Take the knowledge he's learned to this point, and make $8,000 to $50,000 preamps, amps, and integrated amps.

He may very well find that a lot more people would be able to enjoy his designs, that to me would be more satisfying

I wonder if he's gonna finally offer gear in black and silver 🤔 

I am suspecting (reading / hearing) also saturation of persons prepared to have red and gold kit. {acknowledging some will say it is beautiful). Also agreeing on the only so many $250k amps, is this a case of want to or have to? I love red and could have had my Vitus in red, but they are black.

Interesting that his reaction is to produce ’more affordable’ than try "the black edition".

@musicfan2349 +1

@tdudnyk 

Audiophilia is not about having the most cost effective audio system. It is about having the maximum audio performance that you can afford. I have always stretched for the very best achievable that I could possibly afford. That involves endless research, auditioning and always purchasing at the very limit of my ability. Then for around seven years I would be in heaven until I began to realize I could afford to assemble a significantly better system… enjoy, repeat. I am an audiophile.

@tdudnyk I think he’s incensed that his competitors are offering discounts which, in turn, put a bit dent in his business. My educated guess is that he misread the market and misunderstood the value of the channel. Clearly his competition has enough margin to work with and that’s another interesting point in all this.

This stuff is all subjective whether hi-end, mid, or low. And there’s so much of it. It really is akin to what you find in the luxury market. It’s not a necessity, it very much relies on marketing and a good dealer network—or a very, very strong direct approach.

If you’re complaining that the competition has undercut you, then either adjust or get out. I guess he is going to adjust. And that tells me, he thinks he can build something “as good” and less expensive which is rather ironic…

My only knock on the brand is the 250K+ mono amps. Here's why: if they are truly that transcendantly amazing, he should have no problem getting what he is asking for them and having a profitable, thriving business. But are they 2.5x better than Gryphon Apex's (which are class A and cost 100K)? I have the same problem with Burmester 159s and their 350K+ monos. 

Must be out of my price range.  I've never heard of him. 

Goodness, such rancor. Really, why? He's attempting to expand his market, big deal. As someone pointed out, there's only so many $250K amplifiers one could sell. And let's think about this: How many of our spouses shake their heads at the money WE spend "down" at our levels? How many have said "You want to spend HOW much on some ugly old speakers in our living room!?"

I came across this recently and it's made all the difference in my days:

"In a world where you can chose to be anything, choose to be nice."

Happy listening.

"Affordable," not necessarily "covetable."

@curiousjim 

Nice riff on audiophile stupidity.

Well who are any of us to argue with Grandpa? Just as easy to spot people who worked their entire lives and have nothing. Let people buy what they want as you have no idea of their motivation nor economic status. Jealousy is much uglier than what many of you would call first world indulgence. 

There can only be so many buyers of $250,000 amplifiers. At that level, a certain level of performance is expected, and appearance, but that isn't all of it. How much better are they than the units that sell for a quarter the price? Veblen goods and all. Limited production, limited availability, exclusivity, visibility. Still, he has to find some buyers, a rarefied few whose business is solicited by more than a few atelier producers. These are buyers who don't need his product. He has to attract them. Maybe he figures the way to do that is to make them even more exclusive: you can have one only if you order and pay for one. We'll call you when it's ready. One doesn't go to a Rolls Royce or Bugatti dealership and kick tires.

What I don't get is the brand dilution inherent in a lower-priced, stock item. He isn't he first to try this in high-end audio. OMA has done the same with the Fleetwood  brand. But OMA created a second brand, and doesn't appear to conflate the two. Both brands have similar approaches to materials: milled and torrefied hardwood, iron castings, slate. The Fleetwood line is sold through independent audio dealers, OMA is not. Unless DartZeel creates a separate brand that stands on its own there is risk of cheapening  the original brand. He has a problem also with being in Switzerland. Production costs there are very high. Even lower-tier brands like Pro-Ject make their products in lower-cost countries like Slovakia instead of Austria.

If I have extra money Iam willing to audition them.Other wise Iam happy with Plinius, mark Levinsons, and old Krell.And what I have.

Ooh a dartZeel Bluetooth speaker would be awesome

I am just as Envious as you all…

Never understood hi-fi equipment that costs more than an automobile...

Yup, and the talking heads are already talking it up. It’s the greatest thing since sliced bread. And it can be bridged so you can buy two!

I think they are beautiful.

I’ve heard Dartzeel a couple of times. I must say the stack that I heard was fantastic ….. but damn they’re ugly. I wouldn’t buy them even if I could afford. Aesthetics are important. 

Another gold plated toilet story….and pay for that ugly S… Not likely at any price. 

@gkelly  @stereo5 

Absolutely.  How kind that the owner is looking to "break into" the Mid-Fi Market by offering integrated boat anchors that retail for $35,000 instead of $60,000.  As we say in the South, "Bless his little heart....".

Meanwhile, there will be a line out the door of Bitcoin and Internet "new money" millionaires chomping at the bit to buy status.  Have at it.  I'll remain a happy Hillbilly burying my millions in Mason Jars in the hills of East Tennessee and being perfectly content with my vintage McIntosh, ARC, and Klipsch gear.  Grandpa always said it was easy to spot the rich people who never worked for their money...they were they ones spending it like there was no tomorrow.