DAC diminishing returns

Since you already have a Schitt DAC - why not try this for 15 days... and... see if you like it!  And return it if you don't.  At $2199... it is a "friggin bargain" and sounds great to boot!  Can't beat that deal....

https://www.schiit.com/products/yggdrasil

I have had the Yggy for 2 years and have "never looked back."

DACs are fascinating.  All DACs present you with a tradeoff between detail and soundstage.  If you are looking for fine inner detail, great separation of strings, etc... be prepared to compromise in terms of soundstage.  If your priority is soundstage, be willing to compromise in terms of absolute detail.  

Couldn't agree more. IMO the soundstage is from the 2nd order harmonic distortion.

Same with amps. The Benchmark ABH2 and DAC3 won't give you soundstage but they will give you very high detail.

IMO, what is better is what our system needs to create balance with our preferences. Some call that synergy.

Pro Audio folks poke fun at us, but our goals are just different. Some AV folks also laugh at us, but trying to make music sound believable with only two channels ain't easy. ;-)  

@in_shore

You find it amusing that I heard some similar characteristics in the Merason that some reviewers have also mentioned?

I understand that you may have different impressions, but that was precisely the point of my post. Variables such as the related components matter.

Whipsaw ,…LOL 

VerdantAudio’s comments are true having experienced it myself with my own system having recently owned FPGA , dac chip and R2R dacs from the likes of AudioByte Vox , PS Audio , Rockna , Denafrips Terminator 2 , Holo Audio May  currently I am absolutely thrilled with a chip based dac from Merason .

Interesting, as I switched from a Pontus II to the Merason in my system, and really wanted to like it. I found to be pleasing, and particularly good with older, less than optimal recordings, but at the same time lacking in the details retrieved by high-quality R2R DACs. I auditioned an AQUA La Scala, found it to be clearly superior to the Merason, and now own one.

My point, however, is not that everyone would likely have the same result in their systems, but rather that system synergy is extremely important when assessing DACs. I could see the Merason being perfect for a system that leans to the clinical, and/or bright side, as it would likely smooth out some of the harshness. Etc.

Defeeh I meant to add in my comment before posting that none of the dacs I’ve tried are in your budget of 2K , it’s good you are open to any of the audio trades dac topologies, borrow and borrow as many as you can and choose what sounds best to you in your own system .

VerdantAudio’s comments are true having experienced it myself with my own system having recently owned FPGA , dac chip and R2R dacs from the likes of AudioByte Vox , PS Audio , Rockna , Denafrips Terminator 2 , Holo Audio May  currently I am absolutely thrilled with a chip based dac from Merason .

@dsfreeh I have read through this thread and have seen a few Items I have received demonstrations off in an home system belonging to others.

I have a bespoke built Valve DAC used in my home system.

I get the message that you are looking to get the best return for your outlay, and with that in mind, it does have a constraint to the value of the models you are to be directed toward.

As an outside observer and one who is quite frugal in their purchases.

By 'Frugal' I mean I am willing to purchase, on my terms and only when the spend seems sensical. I am set on achieving a change for the better from a device, not just a change to a sonic signature between one device and another. To achieve this I have had most of my devices bespoke built or modified to surpass the standard design.

I am not a lone listener, I attend various events through HiFi Clubs and Forum Meetings where there is encouragement to demonstrate devices to a group of attendees. There is not any time I have not received an appraisal from within a group that leans toward being that a good impression has been made. This is achieved for a plug in device that has been alienated from the home system.

Recently I was able to be present when Two DAC's were used as a comparison at a club event, a Denafrips that cost £1000 direct from the Manufacturer and a Linn that had undergone their latest upgrades.

Both were with almost Zero Hours of use, but the Linn has had a usage life prior to the upgrade components being added.

Both were used in a very familiar system with a Steamer and a CDT Source.

For myself the Denafrips was a much more noticeable performer for the better, the device that many hours could be spent sitting at the hot spot in front of the presentation. The owner of the Denafrips has now sold the model being demonstrated to an attendee and has purchased the Terminator Model.         Hence, when a up the range model DAC is referenced from this Brands range as having a a much more affordable DAC from another Brand compare in a manner that is with an attraction, it does seem to have a gravitas attached to the suggestion on offer.   

I was struggling with the Linn, it was not as a attractive device during this comparison. I was leaning towards the Linn being usable for background music, but it would be difficult for myself to maintain a reasonable period of time seated in the hot spot.

Being a 'Frugal Type' I was caught by the reference to the Benchmark DAC2 and the knowledge being made known, even though it has been superseded as the 'go to' device, it is perfectly satisfying when reintroduced to the system and compared to the Denafrips Terminator Model.

The comparison being made is that a used value $1000ish DAC is proving to be an attractor when compared to a $4000ish DAC, when used in the system belonging to the contributor of this information.

As an individual who is also not adverse to have a device modified ( or an alternative approach to achieve a device the manufacturer does not offer ). I was forming the view a search might reveal modifications that can be carried out on a out of Warranty period Benchmark DAC.

One such route to achieve this has been made known.

It does appear the Benchmark DAC2 has the credentials to be used as an change for the better device and will lend itself to a modification to be further improve on this, as such methods for modifications are made known.

That as a package fits perfectly into my thoughts on what it is to be 'Frugal' as a purchaser. 

It might be a period of two years before a Denafrips Terminator is seen as a used sale item for approx' $2000ish which I assume will be a similar money as a DAC2 with a modification carried out to it.      

I own a very highly modified Benchmark DAC1 HDR.  It has great bones such as a linear power supply and good DAC chips.   However, it has really cheap computer power and filter caps, regulators (50¢).   I replaced them all with audiophile quality caps, $50 regulators and a new audio board, among other items.  The result is a very high end unit ($10K) at under $1400.  Similar for less money using an Emotiva DAC from 2011 which selling for half the Benchmark, about $1000 converted (no room for another audio board).  

I would be suspect of many less expensive DACs unless they include higher end components (just like my discussion about transports-cheap computer based transports generally result in inferior sound as audio transports).  

Hi @dsfreeh,

For what it’s worth,  I have the original Schiit Bifrost multibit and I also have a Denafrips Pontus ll and the Pontus ll is hands down better sounding to me. There is nothing wrong with the BiFrost, in fact I’m still using it in a second system, but the difference in sound was immediately noticeable.

All the best.

JD

@googoogjoob 

I just got a DirectStream and I like it too!!!

@mayoradamwest  transparent DACs are becoming a dime a dozen. This is easily measured. Transparent DACs are also no fun and that is why we have tube DACs, R2R and options such as NOS and slow filters. 

@seanheis1 if you think the D90 is the ultimate transparency and what the engineer intended, you both don’t know DACs and sound engineering. That’s pure nonsense. Not that I would recommend it for home use, but if you want to hear what a studio engineer intended you should probably get some large ATC studio monitors and maybe a Burl converter. 

jiss49....but it does deliver emotion.  

@jjss49 credibility comes from the wife noticing all the way from the next room.

@googoogjoob

writing in bolded type and italics does not make you more credible...

PS Audio DirectStream dac blew my mind. it brought me all the cliches.
30 day in home trial. nothing to lose. 

Test drove a few DACs over the last 3 months (Audiolab M-DAC, Chord Qutest, Denafrips Pontus II - on loan from a friend).....and heard the HoloAudio Spring 3 Level 2 that a friend owns. To my ears the Denafrips and HoloAudio R2R dacs were the best overall sounders, and I chose the Denafrips Pontus II over the Spring 3.....mostly because I got to demo it in my system. Chord had some amazing skills, but was too fatiguing to my ears....too much detail?

I have also used a Onkyo C-7030 and Audiolab 6000 CDT CD transports with the Pontus and have had zero issues

I read nothing but good things about the Pontus. 

You should do more reading...

DACs and amps are about flavor....colorations. I personally enjoy them. Tube amps, tube DACs, R2R...good flavors for me. Give me the second harmonic, give me a slow filter, NOS...I like colorations that make the experience feel more real.  

If you want ultimate transparency then you can buy from Benchmark or even cheaper with something like Topping D90. Have it as the artists and sound engineers intended.

Almost all of us have issues with our rooms. Seeing a measurement of one's room is a gut check. If we put fully faithful equipment and speakers in our rooms, it will put a microscope on the flaws.

So what do most of us do? We buy speakers and equipment that flatters the sound instead of examining it. R2R is a good example. It is easier and more relaxing to listen to for music.  

DACs do make a difference. I find the differences aren't all that subtle, but more subtle than different speakers or headphones.

I read nothing but good things about the Pontus. 

No, there is no limit. Just what you’re willing to spend. Inversely, there is a point of actual returns. I have many dacs, and have tried them from all price points. I don’t believe under $1000 there is much difference and in many cases, the cheaper one will sound better. Beyond about $2000 it’s all going to sound better. I think the people asking about this just want to feel better about their purchase. Enjoy what you have. If it’s not your taste, get something else.

I don’t want to be duped into buying something I don’t really need.

This is a fascinating statement, in that the OP implies that if it improves the sound then it is a matter of "need."  It's amazing how us audio freaks have extended Need from food and shelter to fidelity upgrades. Our poor spouses.

Anyway, DACs do sound somewhat different - not as different as speakers but there are still differences.  I like to switch back and forth from my Schiit Gumby and my Mytek Liberty II.  Very different approaches.

I've owned the following DACs over the years and have settled on liking the R2R sound overall vs the DS chip DACs.

• Denafrips Venus II
• Benchmark DAC3 B
• Bryston BDA-3
• Chord Qutest
• Schiit Bifrost 2
• Topping D90 MQA
• Topping D30 Pro

I had the Bifrost 2 and am now running a Denafrips Venus II, yes the Venus sounds better in my setup but the Bifrost is an excellent value, the cost justification was worth it me but the law of diminishing marginal returns certainly applies. I am now upgrading to a Holo Audio May KTE and hope this will be the end game DAC for my system. I can't justify spending much more than that on a DAC relative to my other components. In your setup you will notice an improvement going to the Denafrips Pontus. You may want to try an Ares first for less money.

Regarding interconnects, I use studio quality, Mogami to my Naim and Van Damme coaxial to my Bifrost 2.  Audiophile cables aren’t warranted at my equipment level.  I should move way up the audio food chain before considering the expense of such cabling.  
Browsing around the internet I once read that Alan Parsons was quoted as saying, “audiophiles don’t listen to music on their equipment, they use your music to listen to their equipment.”  I feel this is true until you reach the a point where you just decide this is good enough.  Stop fretting.  Maybe my Bifrost 2 is enough.  Forget the pursuit and sit back and take in an artists work. In time, new equipment will be fun.  Thanks all.

DACs are fascinating.  All DACs present you with a tradeoff between detail and soundstage.  If you are looking for fine inner detail, great separation of strings, etc... be prepared to compromise in terms of soundstage.  If your priority is soundstage, be willing to compromise in terms of absolute detail.  

In the sub $2K range, I am far from an expert.  But two units I know well are the Chord Qutest and the Questyle CMA 12.  Chord has a reputation for being a bit forward and in practice, bright.  It also tends to not have a very wide soundstage.  That said, no one is better than Chord in terms of soundstage depth and stability between the speakers.  If you want a clear and stable central image, Qutest is amazing.  

Alternatively, the CMA 12 sounds big.  It has scale in terms of width of soundstage and good depth.  Your image will extend well beyond the outside of your speakers assuming proper setup.  It is neutral to maybe a hair warm.  Inner detail compared to Chord Qutest will be okay.  It is detailed, but not in the same league as Chord.  Just like Chords soundstage width is not in the same league as Questyle.  

At a root level, there are tons of awesome DACs on the market.  Do your research and try one in your system on a return policy.  Most return policies charge you return shipping and maybe 3% making your risk relatively small.  

Based on your comments above, it does look like you are not getting hung up on R2R vs Chip vs FPGA.  That is wise.  People make generalizations about these styles but that is driven more by the house sounds of popular brands rather than actual differences in how they reproduce sound.  

I have no practical recommendations on what you should actually demo.  As I said, this is a price range I don't know that well.  Hopefully the above comparison helps.  

Amazing how Denafrips has no return policy....  that is a deal breaker for me.  

My current dac, is the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 dac/pre, which I've owned a couple years now. About a year ago I was bitten by the R2R dac bug, but they are all out of my price range. However, I upgraded the coax cable and power cords to the AA, and could hear both. I also replaced a transport that died, and upgraded the PC to my amp and CDT6000 transport and could both

hth

Hello dsfreeh!  If you have tried a few DACs and not noticed much of a difference between them, start with a good USB cable. I have found this to be the most "difference making" cable in my systems. It is quite critical. You don't have to pay a fortune. Zavfino makes the best one I have tried. Wireworld and Furutek (spelling?) make fine products and they may be found at UsedCable.com and oher sites. "Last Year's" top models suffer heavy discounts as new models are introduced. Under $200 will get you a very good cable. You should be able to detect differences between DACs. Happy hunting.

@danager

+1

I have found that if you carefully research what you want in any component category and invest no less that 2x or more the cost of your existing component you virtually always get a “wow” improvement. Small differences or poorly researched ones get lateral moves.

Also. On the streamer… I have had many starting with PCs and MACs. I recommend not holding back… my streamer is twenty five percent more expensive than my DAC. Totally worth it. The streamer is like the turntable… if you start out with a noisy signal… it does not get fixed. I was hesitant since it was just zeros and ones… but it is like all other components. It really makes a difference. My streamer equals my really good vinyl in sound quality and bests red book CDs.

OP it may be easy to try the Denafrips Ares used. You should be able to hear a difference. Denafrips does not offer returns. You can pick one up used between $700 to $725 shipped and sell it in a day or 2 for the same price you paid. Not losing any money. The Pontus used you could lose or make a couple hundred depending on the deal you find if you choose to sell it.

I borrowed a Ares from a friend to see what all the hype was about when I was considering the Pontus. For a $800 dac I think the Ares is nice for the money. It has nice bass good soundstage maybe lacking in information but that could be why most move up the line. I owned the Quetest a while back and enjoyed the Ares more for its analog and musical presentation.

In my experience moving up in quality DACs provide more than just coloration.  Each time I upgraded I experienced a less digital influenced sound, better imaging and clarity of detail.  I haven't heard the super high end DACs (Lampizator etc.) but rather than lateral moves I've made significant jumps in price with each upgrade and my next DAC is gonna set me back if I ever get to point that my DAC is the limiting factor.

You can mitigate the diminishing returns by checking out the used market.  I just purchased a PSAudio DirectStream DAC that for some reason seems to have fallen out of favor with Audiophiles for close to the same price as the new Benchmarck3HGC.   I don't know how it compares with the Benchmark but I can say it's better than my tube rolled MHDT Orchid. 

I tend to hear vocal artifacts such as glare or an unnatural sounding  tones as a vocalist's dynamics increases  which has been vastly improved with the DS.  It was also improved with the Orchid compared the Allo Piano 2 with the reclocker where I started.. 

 The DirectStream trade in value is $2000 from PSAudio so I likened it to a used car I used that as my baseline.

For me, my biggest issue now is my streamer.  I use a inexpensive fanless PC's USB with its stock switching power supply and WIFI connection.  I'm hoping that by decreasing the background noise threshold with a direct connection to the router and a linear power supply .  I2S streamers seem to cost more than the DAC so I'm trying alternate solutions hoping to get there without spending the farm.  I bummed PI2AES is no longer being manufactured so I'll keep up the search.  

Have fun on your search and don't forget to stop and enjoy the music

This is Audiogon, not a dealer's website.  Wait for a relatively good deal on a DAC you are interested in, buy it, and if it's not clearly better, put it back up for sale for around the price you purchased it for.  If you take a small hit, so be it.

I had a modded Benchmark DAC1, Havana, and Chord TT2.  I didn't know what I was missing until I got a Merason, and now a Bricasti M1.  There's no way I can go back now.

@larsman  

yes, chord was mentioned, my mistake.  Lots of good info in response to my question.  The more I research Chord, I’m not inclined to go that route.

In my area there are no dealers of high end equipment where I can go listen.

I like my Bifrost, but I would like more of a sound stage, which is what I’m trying to accomplish.

@dsfreeh - there are references to Chord further towards the top of the thread. Some people love Chord gear, others, like me, not so much. Great quality stuff, just depends on what your sound preferences are, and Chord is a bit dry for my tastes (which are more R2R type sound).... 

    I've had a dedicated headphone station with MacBook Air >usb, Oppo 83 >coax, Bifrost 2 >bal, Jot 2 >bal, Aria phones for a year last March.  Very good sound!

   Then in Mar, consumed by reports of awesome 2 ch SACD via I2s (HDMI) I purchased an HDMI/I2s box ($50) and a Pontus II.

   I originally thought the Bifrost had a more punchy sound that was fun with electronica music.  The Pontus was notably better with everything else: wider soundstage, better track separation, more detail, more air, etc.  An example: HiRes Melody Gardot, Sunset In The Blue...all sounds better thru the Pontus, except the last track with Sting, "Little Something", which is more dance than jazz with base slam which the Bifrost accentuates.

   Since then I I had stopped listening to the Bifrost almost entirely and pulled it from the stack to use as a 2ch step up in my home theater system.

   Given a good recording the I2s SACD is my 2ch (headphone) "state of the art, wow....

    I have only heard a couple of "micro skips" I presumed were cd read errors, not sure of the path.  Will have to further investigate given the feedback here.  Absolutely no buyer remorse.

Thankfully I haven’t got to that place yet. I’ve only had four DACS and each one has been better than the last.

Whipsaw I use USB...

@audioman58 

That explains why you have not experienced the issue. It is related to CD transports, and the (different) inputs employed.

That the Pontus (and presumably other Denafrips DACs) sounds very good is irrelevant. This is a flaw that may affect any potential purchaser who intends to use a CD transport, and should obviously be taken into consideration.

If you can’t hear a difference then save your money. I can tell you that there are many dacs that would be an huge upgrade for you but they will cost more, and the better 1’s will require you to upgrade your system to get the best out of the dac. If you are happy keep what you got

electroslacker,  your Benchmark suggestion is well received.  I have read good reviews and some use it as a benchmark.  They have been out there for a long time and are still well regarded.

I really think the Benchmark DAC2 is the steal. Yes, there's a DAC3 but even they feel that's getting into diminishing returns.  They really know what they're doing, have impeccable credentials in the recording industry, and you can have what many recording studios use in your home for a pittance with a used DAC2.  It's just a little black box filled with superb engineering so it has to swim upstream againgst the audiophile ethos of magic and jewelry, but it does its job superbly.

Full disclosure, I had their DAC1 and DAC2 and thought the DAC2 was better.  Then got the upgrade itch and got Terminator1, then Terminator2, but I have nothing but admiration and respect for Benchmark.  Sometimes I'll swap in the DAC2 and it always sounds good.

+1 @hilde45 couldn’t have said it better. Buy what sounds the best (to you) in your system.

Thanks again for the “sound “ advice.  You have provided me with options that I haven’t considered.  Chord is one name that was not mentioned.  Their reviews are consistently favorable. Seems many use Chord as a reference.  Thoughts and experience with Chord would be appreciated.

Also, upgrading my RP 3 hat will happen if I jump to a better DAC.

Whipsaw I use USB ,  and sonicly sounds excellent , the fifo buffer does a very good job and in the Terminator2  or T+ dac using duel Over clocks ,makes itine excellent dac ,yes IHave read about conversion  topics but sonicly  way way outof any distortions I can hear or even a 🐕 for that matter . Just read current reviews 

on the terminstor 2 , T2+ dac.

it is as good or better the the Holo springs May KTE dac ,all depending on taste 

they both are excellent depending on your system I have heard the vast majority of dacs side by side in New England we have multi state audio get togethers.  With many great systems most out ofmy pay grade over $100 k+   Much more today 

then in the past.

With Denafrips dacs I own 2 currently and in the mk2 version there is no micro skipping issue ,idont even know what that means. 

@audioman58 

I'm glad to hear that you haven't had any issues, but it is wrong to imply that the mk2 is immune to such issues. My Pontus was a mk2, and there have been plenty of other reports. As to you not knowing what it means, well, you apparently haven't researched the topic.

Here is Denafrips' primary hypothesis, as articulated by Alvin himself:

Denafrips DACs use an internal reclocker when the DAC is connected using SPDIF or AES, which uses a small FIFO to buffer the PCM samples before they are clocked out using the internal clock to the R2R DAC. 

SPDIF (and AES/EBU) assume that the source controls the clock, but as we all know this can introduce jitter resulting in poor performance. By buffering the data and reclocking it, the DAC can all but eliminate the issues with jitter, but this only works well if the source clock is close enough in frequency to the DACs reference clock such that the FIFO can handle the timing differences for the duration of the stream.

If the source clock is operating at a significantly different frequency from DAC clock, or the time between resetting the buffer is too long, the FIFO will either overflow or run out of samples and you'll get a drop out or stutter. 

Well a basic  thing about hi fi. Each step up cost proportionately  more for a smaller increase  in  sound quality. So it becomes  at what level are you happy with your system? The best sounding  system  for the money spent is one that is balanced. Nothing to high up the food chain for the rest of the system.  

Also another question  a friend of  mine has a Naim system and it likely is the system  I have heard that makes the biggest difference  if it it left on of any system  I have heard do you leave your Naim on? If not give that a try and see what you think after it has been on a couple of weeks. 

Regards

With Denafrips dacs I own 2 currently and in the mk2 version there is no micro skipping issue ,idont even know what that means.   Look up pontus mk2 , or Terminator 2 dacs read some reviews ,  if going to buy state what is your Max budget  this helps , as I mentioned the$4500-$6500 isthe sweet spot 

and they are made over seas Holo springs, and Denafrips  you would have to pay much more to = this   And both nowhave repair centers inthe U.S

 but are very dependable , they all sound different abit Multibit - R2R dacs are the original type dac chips and sound a bit smoother , going up the chain mola mola dac is great at$14 k  ,and of course DCS dacs but are $$ ,which have their own custom architecture.

What is your budget?  I would recomed you buy a DAC from a dealer with a return exchange policy and try for yourself.  

Does the significantly higher cost justify what might be a marginal increase in sound quality?

Do this test and see if you get it right 100%. If not ... no need to spend more money.

https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2015/06/02/411473508/how-well-can-you-hear-audio-quality

Of course if you just feel this itch to pamper yourself and get some nice new gear, that can be satisfactory all by itself.