Just so we understand the parameters of high end and "midlevel stuff," can you define the levels for us? How much do I need to spend on speakers before they are "really high end"? How about amps? Sources? I am not sold on a direct correlation between cost and quality, but then again I have never spent more than $15,000 on a pair of speakers. I am genuinely curious about this line of demarcation and how it is determined. |
The lion's share of my listening and auditioning has been under that imposed threshold of $15k. But it's hard for me to see any loudspeaker costing more than $1k as potentially audiophile. Maybe be its hard for the OP to get many posts about loudspeakers north of that line because there are so few buyers in that market. Also, if you're in that market maybe you're less budget conscious and as such don't need to post and research as much as those buying lesser value speakers. I for one have speakers just south of $4k and think the opposite--so many magazine reviews and posts involve 5-figure products that I'm not likely to budget for. You probably hsve have a fair point but economics and market forces may explain it. |
Well if you are interested in developments at the high end, ATC have developed their own tweeter (available since about a year or two) Similar to their legendary 3" dome mid range, this tweeter has a double spider for stability and no ferrofluid. It took about ten years to develop (no doubt tested in various major studios before a general release to market) The driver integration on their designs is obviously superb as ATC now control everything in house including the active crossovers and discrete amplifier dedicated to each driver. With regard to the lack of discussion on high end speakers I think it is clear that most Audiogoners primarily invest in and prioritize component electronics, cables, interconnects and all manner of power conditioners and other tweaks such as reclocking devices. I don't understand this approach as I believe speakers to actually be the most important part of any audio system. |
I don't know what the parameters for "great" are. How many people have had opportunity to really get to know the crazy expensive speakers? You can't really tell at shows, you can get a taste at a dealer but how many dealers have 200k speakers on display? The far high end is ridiculous simply because it's so inaccessible. Who knows if that stuff is really any better than stuff that's a tenth of the price? It'll go louder maybe. It just doesn't interest me. Anybody can make a giant speaker, put a big price tag on it and say it's great. Since next to no one will ever hear it who's to say if they're right? https://www.higherfi.com/speakers/linn-audio-of-nh-reference-granite |
This is quiet Interesting, the video is from the Magnepan room in 2013? who had a blind 'guess the price of the system behind the curtain' contest. The chap from AVshowreports Peter what's his face says 'it was the best sound at the show that he had heard so far'. The system behind the curtain was MMG's and a pair of bass panels, all for a princely sum of $2375. Quite a bargain if you ask me, and I would imagine within the realms of affordability from folk on here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0gsixfDc_U |
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To me, it's a little boring to read about expensive speakers/gear that I'll never be able to own or afford. I like reading about the giant killer gear and classic gear, stuff that is obtainable..... A George Carlin analogy was his bit about teenage masturbation and who'd you think about. For some, it was a beautiful actress, or model, but for the late great George Carlin, he thought about chicks in the neighborhood. "Hey, I could get that!" He said.....that's how I think about reading about gear that could be obtainable :) |
@psag Negative comments are on almost every thread. To combine the truth of widening economic divide with an attempt to attribute negative comments and envy of the have-nots as the reason behind the lack of discussion in the high end of speakers could come across as divisively narrow minded. But I don’t know you so I would not attempt to make that connection. The point I’d really like to make is your comment and @missioncoonery reply are a bit of a disservice and do not give credit where credit is due to the active and seasoned members of the ’Gon. From my perspective and experience envy has very little if anything to do with the situation as you describe it. The "negative"comments to which you refer made by the have-nots, are far more often than not actually made by discerning experienced ’philes, admittedly also the chronicly curmudgeon amongst us as well, whose ears and bs detectors are finely tuned against the hype that abounds and to whom I owe a debt of gratitude. You guys may be in this group as well. With that said, you do need to cultivate a thicker skin to be a part of these forums and I believe that plays a far larger role why there isn’t a greater participation from a broader slice of the population as well as from the one per centers. Sure, I’ve read comments that show audio folk are not immune from the envy and negativity that exists in the world. Its just you seem to imply it coming from one subset alone. Equipment envy at the high end is really a concern by people that can almost afford it than the average enthusiast who can’t imo. Isn’t usually we desire what’s just out of reach and on and on till death do us part. My comments do not, repeat do not, imply that real differences and quality of sound at a very high level are a figment of the imagination of those who can afford the "high end". I’m positive there are amazingly refined systems and designers and owners who have worked very hard to achieve their personal slice of nirvana, at all price points. Cheers to everybody working and playing with their passion in audio. |
There are mountains of relatively inexpensive gear designs that sound world class, and all you need to do is listen to things prove this point. Trust your ears…audio is certainly one place where the cost doesn't guaranty higher performance, and it's all relative anyway…finding audio bargains is more fun than simply plunking down piles of cash for the Berellium Mambo…get a good ukulele or a pair of $150 headphones…educate yourself…pay for my drink…something... |
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Mapman...well said. *G* I don't mind the 'esoterica', the 'bleeding edge' stuff, if it's Really an Agreed Upon Improvement. But there's the rub....getting AUI on anything anymore seems improbable if not impossible. We splinter into our camps of preference, dig in, and arm ourselves against the infidels. If cost no object, hey, have at it. Or run what you brung. If it makes you smile...I was under the impression that was the idea. Trading thoughts and opinions is good; delving into general huffiness over differences is not. Zip cord or 1K$ a foot. Tubes vs. SS. LP, CD, your favorite alphabet soup combination. Mine vs. yours, and death to all that oppose us. If you can't laugh at it all after awhile, MHO you're missing the point. We're supposed to being having fun, Right? It's a hobby, not a religion. (Yes, Capt. Obvious has struck yet again with the *Huh?*Bomb. Some of us are just renegades...) |
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Hi Inna, Could you define a "great speaker" ? Is price or performance the qualifying criteria? I agree with the idea that envy/jealousy are factors for "some" who are leery or dismissive of the more expensive range of audio products. It can be pointed out on the other hand that there exists a snob appeal that has more to do with exclusivity and status obtained rather than genuine performance superiority. It seems to me that there are emotional and psychological aspects that play a role in perception of High End Audio besides purely objective parameters. No surprise really when you you consider that we’re referring to the behavior and beliefs of human beings. There’re always multiple variables that will inevitably form a and shape ones perception concerning establishing a hierarchy or rating system. I do believe that as listeners gain experience and exposure over a period of time they do develop a keener sense of value versus actual sonic performance/sound quality. As Wolf Garcia noted with increased experience it is quite possible to find excellent sounding products that are reasonably affordable and not out of reach. IMO price/performance isn't always a linear relationship. I think this is good news if one’s objective is to achieve high quality music reproduction in their home audio system. Inna I do feel that Whatsbestforum is a site that you’d likely enjoy given your initial post. Charles |
For me, if I've got the scratch to buy $50k+ speakers I know the candidates that interest me and don't need any help deciding, so I'm not asking here. Also, I'd guess that once speakers at this level are bought they aren't changed all that often (shipping cost, risk, and hassle make it relatively onerous versus, say, an amp) so less likely to hear from this group, and this just gets us back to point one anyway. Last, I'm not really gonna get on here and talk about how my megabuck speakers sound. Duh. They sound awesome, and I'm a rich, arrogant prick. I'd like to hear more about these speakers here too in case I win the lottery or my kids don't go to college, but I'm not holding my breath. Much more likely to hear from someone who owns these speakers looking to maybe change their amp or pre to tweak the sound one way or another, which is probably why there's more discussion about higher end electronics, etc. Anyway... |
Hi Inna, I read your post that you were talking about "Truly Great Performing Speakers" not necessarily the mega buck stuff only... A thread that goes off of your lead, something like How much does the price have to do with Truly great, mid level performance or Mediocre speakers. My last several pair of speakers, have been my builds and I haven't gone to any shows in maybe 18 months, so I may not be qualified to comment on the very latest and greatest, but that should stir some interest. Tim |
There is no need for definition, when you hear it you know it. I like this " I am an arrogant prick " line. Choice of speakers is very personal so the discussion would also become very personal. Of all elements of the chain speakers are the closest to instruments and in fact are the easiest to evaluate. You don't need a lot of time to know. As for the what'sbest forum, I don't participate there but read some from time to time. The last time I read about Echole cables. It also appears that many people here view this forum as a free consulting service. I think, it is only part of it and not the most important part. |
@soix , if you have that kind of scratch lying around, do yourself a favor and inquire around at the next audio show you go to. At the LA audio show they had a pair of Lumenwhite speakers that normally go for $70K and the show price for the pair was $45K. It doesn't hurt to ask. 🤔 All the best, Nonoise |
The high end users I know,or most of them don’t get engaged with site much...and I don’t blame them.I agree with psag.Thank you missioncoonery for stating part of what this is all about. The angry part of the hater which desires to project and hate, and to infect a forum... this miscreant behaviour needs to be squashed with extreme prejudice --- until the lesson is both learned and known to exist as an existential and real threat. then a forum can slowly gain and regain a modicum of contribution (finally!) from those will not participate due to the projection of violence toward others...exhibited by miscreants and haters. The fact of a boot on the face, forever... placed squarely and forcefully and specifically openly--- on any projecting attitude - that some given aspect of audio (the given attack dog’s target) is due to charlatans or snake oil, or other purposely used language or words to heap derision on others. Reasonable discussions involve respect and an even attitude and do not include vicious behaviour that does whatever it can to get it’s way, or does whatever it can to sneak past decency and respect in subtleties of wording, in order to strike some sort of a blow. that a contributors wording, thoughts and expressions have to be real, decent, respectful, and non-derogatory in full openness, with no sneak attacks in veiled wording, never-mind direct attacks to emotionally cull or damage the given others in the conversation. That these weapons of coercion control and animal violence have to be wholly disallowed, with extreme prejudice worn openly on the given forum’s sleeves, so the extremists get the point. Until a forum does this, in permanence... it will face a declining participation that will reduce to a zero. That people who exist and live by violent confrontation in their wording, the undercurrent of emotions in that way in their wording... have to be eliminated from the given forum, otherwise the given forum will never right itself. It will slowly die off. I would like to think I understand the nature of the problem and answer, as my experience of being an internet forum(ish) contributor goes back to about 1992 and even earlier, and encompasses over 35,000 pages of written communications/interactions on the internet. |
