Critical listening and altered states
I will take this topic to a different point of view. In the past have I enjoyed getting drunk, stoned, or both together yes I have. Have I enjoyed listening to music in that state of mind yes. But now as I have aged and refrained from the mind altering aids in an effort to increase my health I now have the ability to use my system and the music as my “high”. My room my system the music is my get away from the issues that life can toss at me. Every now and then I will think a quick hit of weed would be interesting but then a half hour into a good artist and album quickly gives me the mind altering get away that I am looking for with no weed needed. Enjoy the music any way you can get it! |
| Post removed |
My audio journey was launched sober, but really took off on pot. There was a barrier to listening vs. being “convinced” that pot seemed to help remove. I no longer partake, and my tinnitus prevents me from trusting my judgement on what sounds best, but I can fairly say my best years as an audiophile were spent high. And nitrous oxide? There’s a barrier buster! |
Excuse me OP I get a little wound up about Vice.. What can I say.. I try to keep it in check.. and I have for 40 years.. Drugs, gamblin’, sex, traveling, anything that is a problem in someone else’s life, is a problem in everyone’s life.. EXCEPT the person in denial.. Like I said that 50% of the people.. Choosing to help the world is still a choice, no one was drafted.. Then bellyache about the choice. PTSD.. I got PTSD from SFPD, how’s that. LOL I think I’ll get altered.. "TILT" puff puff pass. Play on Carlos, play on.. Got to change your Evil ways’ Hat on the floor as I slowly walk around to the beat of the music and my faithful dog follows me. I stop.. I slowly back around the hat.. Olay Amigo.. I like salsa.. I'm an American Irishman and Sioux go figure.. TGIF |
When cannabis, which has been a medicine ever since it has been on the planet, is finally "discovered" to be beneficial in may ways, as well as psychoactive components in mushrooms and other "plants" on the planet, I suppose all the drunks among the population will begin arguing for THEIR "drug of choice." This nation is steeped in ignorance and denial about so many items today. I am sure those who decry cures that are not yet "approved" will rail against whatever "discoveries" are made in the future. After all, in today's world of the perpetually apoplectic, another "healthy" cigarette (4 out of 5 DOCTORS recommend KENT with the micronite filter!!) and a couple shots of straight 100-year-old scotch or whatever, peace will be found in THEIR drugs of choice and people using "newfangled" medical discoveries will be considered the fools. Kinda reminds me of vaccines, but we digress... |
@ianb52 Good point about the "paradox that with certain altered states the detail of perception and emotional intensity are increased, but the ability to do focused critical listening (left brain-type activity) becomes difficult and not fun" I suppose my question is not whether critical listening should be done all the time but if an instance or two of listening done in these states might break one’s ruts and open up a new insight. That insight could be carried into a critical listening session without any altered state. We do this with books all the time -- read, immerse, get an insight, then carry it forward and apply it once the book is closed. You convey this scenario really well in your reminiscence about how tripping "produced musical experiences that I had never even conceived and permanently altered the way I hear things." It might also be the case that the "paradox" you mention could be sidestepped by micro-dosing. @daj "Show me a person with a fearful, negative attitude toward the use of mind altering substances and the exploration they make possible, and I will show you someone who is most likely locked into the consensual dream state of life as the character they learned to be. There is nothing beyond these confines for them. Bless their hearts." Zing! And then you quote William James! One of America’s greatest, most creative, most open-minded, geniuses. To read James is to expand consciousness itself. Well done! It was not my intention to create a referendum on drug use, casual or habitual. Obviously, for many on this forum, it’s a trigger. My OP asks a very specific question about audiophile listening and the fine-tuning of a system with critical listening supplemented -- or not -- with altered states. The fact that *this* question has been taken as a tee-up of a different question ("Are drugs good or not" or some other general question) is, um, a sociological result I wasn’t expecting. But noted, nonetheless! |
Flash-bangs are not grenades, there’s no shrapnel. Disorienting bright flash & loud noise, that’s it. Prevented many bad outcomes. Maybe problematic in your family’s hands… Some big cop-hating issues you’ve got there. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You saw a lot of money? You saw what was LEFT.. Give me a break.. How many times did YOU pat people down and walk away with THEIR money, their GUN, their pocket knife, their anything? LOL plenty of times... I return pins at work too.. I didn't steal nuts bolts or ANYTHING, including TIME. Tell about the "GOOD" works you did.. BLABBIN away setting side by side blabbing half the night passing a bottle, or watching out while your partner taps a local prostitute for the "weekly" right to work the corner payment.. .. LA cops impounding Latino kids cars behind a joint in the ashtray. DIRTY? How many times? I’m glad you did your 25, I did 49 years of WORK... BTW Shot twice, stabbed once.. I did 89 days in a cage in Panama, behind DIRTY COPS, and payola. I’m angry hell, I’m livin’ proof!!! AND I’ve never hated a soul in my life. What they did YES.. Like I said COWARDS, Like I said Hand Grenades, Like I said DIRTY.. If you used flash bangs in the US. PRISON!!! Countless people in jails, behind drugs and Vice. 1800 cops and you only new a few that were drug/Vice abusers.. You’re exactly the cop I was talking about.. Complete denial as you sip your single malt.. I can always spot an abuser of LIFE and then has the gall to defend it.. Sip away BARNEY. The compassion and abuse I’ve seen from the very same person that is every bit as messed up as the crackhead they were busting.. It’s never the drug it’s the person who is NEVER responsible. 50% of people admit to OCD behavior, the other 50% are in DENIAL. I suppose there were "Good shoots" too, as some kid lays dead behind a cell phone. How many times.. "I THOUGHT" I saw a weapon. Texas two years ago. 3 dead behind a warrant. The Dog, The Wife, The Husband. 59, 49, (dog unknown but dead). Someone ASKED where to buy heroin from someone in the house, who happened to be an informant. He WAS a VET.. A state full of drunks and they murder people behind a warrant and ASKING where to buy something.. Just like bounty hunting and private prisons.. Put the whole lot in their own revolving prison door. Let a thief go but hold a prostitute. One is making money, one is stealing money.. Usually payola of one "KIND" or the other.. |
Roadwhorerwcords, we always plucked the center fibers out, they supposedly contained strychnine. I'm not a chemist, just never got sick. Most of the hurlers did not get sick with the tea. The tea was perked in a coffee pot with sticks and seeds that would have been wasted otherwise. Music was always played loud-but clean. No matter what, the taste was horrible. |
@coys21 if you’re willing to share, would love to hear what your top 2-10 reference tracks are - digital/vinyl. Impressive regimen. And system! i listen 30+ hours a week........for the last 20+ years. i’ve always enjoyed comparing formats......and gear investigations. and i have lots of media in discs, files , pressings, and reels of tape. so naturally i’ve always done plenty of comparing things and so that led to finding my most effective method over time. it was no accident or casually arrived at. here is my system link; https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615 my pictures and gear list from that link is now a year or so old, so there are some additions not listed. a 4th tt, headphones and a headphone amp are not listed. here are a few reference cuts i use; digital; https://boxset.me/anna-netrebko-sempre-libera-24-88-flac/ track 11, about 3:20 is a glass harmonica which will either be real or just a hint. it is very delicate, well defined and clear, sweet and soaring when it’s done right. can be smeared and indistinct on some gear. no place to hide and separates the real from the pretenders. i own the 16/44, the dsd file, SACD and the 24/88 file. the 24/88 (the source resolution from the recording) is much better than the others. her voice is divine. i have a 24/352 dxd file of Aerosmith’s "Sweet Emotion" which is direct transfer from the master tape. the beginning of this song is a holographic spectacular. and this file is a revelation......and so far is typically the best digital i or anyone i’ve played it for has heard. again; it demands everything from my system spatially and dynamically, and reveals any shortfalls. and when i’ve improved my digital this cut has really shown that. i doubt this file can be found commercially. i will try and list some others when i have time. if you are ever in the Seattle area you would be very welcome to visit and i will play a number of my reference test cuts for you. |
Let me guess, you were high when you wrote this? I rest my case. |
daj makes a point. When I was between 18 and 22, I used cannabis on a regular basis and found that when listening to music, it turned down the "noise" in my head as well as peripheral thoughts and allowed me to connect with the music deeply much more easily, with a relaxed concentration. I then used it only on rare occasions up until I was around 40, noting the same effects. In the end, I decided to stop using it altogether because I hated the unpleasant side effects and found that for me, it just wasn't worth it in total. Thinking now of some of the unpleasant parts of using it, I recall being very surprised in recent years when I heard that people were using it for pain relief. It always had the opposite effect on me. Any small ache or pain that I had seemed greatly amplified after smoking. Everyone's different. For me, it just got played out over time. I know people my age who still smoke every day. |
Decades ago I took some sort of acid and thought my friends car stereo was the best I had ever heard. I believe mushrooms had a similar effect on me. The interesting thing is that both increase ones sensitivity to seratonin, which is similar to staying up a long time with no sleep, but seratonin also builds up the longer one is awake, so perhaps that’s why those late night listening sessions sound so good- as well as quieter electric grid. |
I remember the listening scene from the '70s where I grew up (not far from hillbilly country) and what was a listening session was in reality a party, with bodies on the lawn the next morning. Thankfully, I wasn't one of them. I do most of my listening alone. At one time, I belonged to a club (NYC crowd that met in Westchester and other places) and had my share of sessions with OPS ("other people's systems"). This was obviously before the Internet, which changed how we communicate, putting present circumstances aside for the moment. I'm sure I learned during those listening sessions; what the equipment at the time was capable of, what a really good reproduction of double bass or piano (hard to do) is like. I find myself listening alone quite a bit and I'm good with that. In fact, when I have had people over during the years (and this extends for decades), I wanted to make sure they were impressed. But me, alone, exploring music without regard to making sure the stuff is "buffed to a show finish" is a different kind of experience. And in that, I do find some jewels. I continue to learn, about artists and their music, and in the process, reassess my perspective on what music is. |
Isn't reality for people who can't face drugs? I find THC to give a hyper sharp focus. It can also turn on the the illuminated, 3 dimensional inner landscape of visuals, sound, emotions and an ineffable blend of them all, that I would bet many a person doesn't even suspect is there to be experienced. (won't even go into what other substances have to offer) Show me a person with a fearful, negative attitude toward the use of mind altering substances and the exploration they make possible, and I will show you someone who is most likely locked into the consensual dream state of life as the character they learned to be. There is nothing beyond these confines for them. Bless their hearts. "Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, Creeps in this petty pace from day to day, To the last syllable of recorded time; And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more. It is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing." “Our normal waking consciousness . . . is but one special type of consciousness, whilst all about it, parted from it by the flimsiest of screens, there lie potential forms of consciousness entirely different." William James We have just so many breaths allotted to us. In the end, it's just a question of knowing yourself. Get curious if you are not now. Or continue dreaming. Who is there to care? |
I enjoy reading these posts to observe what must be altered states of many of the responders. 50 plus years ago I took a photography darkroom course. The professor would begin each class by placing someone's work from the previous class for us to view and respond to. However, before this he would have us close our eyes and lead us in meditation while this was going on he posted the picture and we would open our eyes to it and respond. What impressed me was the clarity of thought the image evoked. So meditation before music in a quiet darkened room quiets the mind in preparation for listening. The other times with my buddies forgetabout critical listening we turn on tune in and drop out lol. That was also in a Moody's song don_c55. Remember Timothy Learys dead no no, he's outside listening. |
This all boils down to 1 thing,FEELING. I doubt there are even a handful of Agone members who do not listen to music to feel,to experience transcending their normal existence.Some humans need or desire the directional shift their brain takes when altered by ANY substance,some do not. As long as we enjoy the music,what does it matter if we are listening blind drunk,stoned or clean & sober.. PS:For the record I am a recovered alcoholic,sober 12+ years now & I do enjoy a hit or two of cannabis concentrates on the weekends.. |
There is a paradox that with certain altered states the detail of perception and emotional intensity are increased, but the ability to do focused critical listening (left brain-type activity) becomes difficult and not fun. These states can key you into what is abrasive in a system, what feels intuitively good, and what is getting in the way, but not in the usual deliberate way. Good sound certainly matters, as does immersive music with interesting textures. Classical music can produce really rich, layered, and emotional experiences, while electronic music can tickle the senses and entrain your consciousness more. In each case, it is more about immersive experience than critical listening. The music itself makes the biggest difference. Speaking as a total weirdo, I found certain music while tripping produced musical experiences that I had never even conceived and permanently altered the way I hear things. Musical compositions becoming three or four dimensional spaces comprised of so many moving layers, sound textures becoming tactile sensations, colors, and shapes, or evoking images, things harmoniously melting into each other, and lucid trance-like states. If it is your thing and you don’t mind electronic sounds I recommend "Are You Shpongled" by Shpongle. Completely changed music for me. Cannabis is great too, much of the time, by enhancing sound textures, making grooves pleasurable, and increasing the intensity of momentary focus so dynamic or rhythmic changes are very dramatic and exciting. What I notice in terms of system evaluation is that I need something that feels good, but also performs multilayered music well, and bass performance is very important. Solid state systems work well if they aren't harsh. |
oldhvymec: So every cop in your family is dirty except the one that married into your family? Sounds like a serious genetic problem in your family tree. Kind of interesting, I did 25 years on the Cleveland PD starting in 1990 right when crack cocaine hit, only knew of a few cops out of about 1800 (number when I started) that were dirty and weeded out. Frequently saw much money and drugs, the culture was such that the idea of taking/stealing any of it would not be tolerated by anyone. Flash-bangs are not grenades, there’s no shrapnel. Disorienting bright flash & loud noise, that’s it. Prevented many bad outcomes. Maybe problematic in your family’s hands… Some big cop-hating issues you’ve got there. |
Agreed....a really Fine cup of coffee... ....with some 'augmentation'...(no sugar or cream, pleeze...Black, like m'attitude....)...*g* ...to chase 'this'....if in the mode to just Enjoy. If I'm opt to be 'critical' about it....even the coffee + the sugar can be considered 'drugs' in their way. Where one 'draws lines' is where one draws them. |
And now for something completely different. Why are so many posters not showing or telling us what their system is comprised of...... I don’t have the computer skills to post pictures. I do list all of my equipment. Tomic and Old Heavy Mechanic and a few others thank you for your pictures and explanations. As for this thread, who cares what we personally imbibe on this audio journey. Side note cactus tea is much better than trying to chew the buttons, won’t get sick either. PS haven’t seen a peyote button in 30 years or so, never got sick. |
It's simple, if there is ONE person locked up behind VICE, that's one to many. When child molesters, rapist, murders, thieves, and ARSONIST, roam the country freely and someone who grew pot, or paid for a sex worker or bought dope from a COP is in jail.. IT'S BROKE.. Cowards laws for cowards.. The only problem with Vice is the corrupt COPS that work it.. Everyone is dirty.. That's the reason they work it.. I never met one that wasn't either.. I worked for Laidlaw, huge contract for cleaning labs, pot farms, you name it.. The people watching US.. Keep your wives and children locked up. NEVER turn your back and lock your tool boxes around them... Worst thieves I ever met. Every one bragged about what they stole from the raid sites.. OPENLY... 25-35 years ago.. DEA, ATF, my A$$. More people murdered than the flippin' Taliban behind no knock warrants.. Flash bangs are HAND GRENADES, you should see what happens to babies and animals... OPS!!! Wrong house.. Nothing found.. Prison and NO TRIAL.. Hand grenades on the American public and death squad warrants. Never see a court.. Hand them over the families.. And then defend their action.. An American dies someone goes to jail.. A search warrant is a tool used to conduct a reasonable search, it's not a death warrant.. It's always some 25 year old without a conscience, that's why they use the YOUNG.. They haven't grown from a Barny to an Andy, add 15 years.. You get Andy..20% of the time.. A peace officer with sense. Not one bullet Barney 80%.. I have a family FULL of good cops.. thank God.. Maybe one bad one or two, well there might be 1/2 dozen or so.. Well actually they are all dirty.. They just didn't get caught.. One good one for sure out of 15 or so.. Not bad.. I think it's because he's Swedish and married into the family.. :-) Regards |
| Post removed |
I don't do drugs other than alcohol. I don't care if being high makes the music appear to sound better or be appreciated in a different way. The reason is that long term pot users I've known always end up with the same identifiable traits....poor work ethic, lowered responsibility, less desire to achieve anything, same stupid look on their faces. Long term alcohol users do not seem to go down the gurgler like that. Yes there will exceptions. And in not talking excessive use, I'm sure excessive alcohol brings a person firm too. I'd rather employ a mild drinker than a mild pot smoker. I don't wanna end up like the pot users I've seen. I don't care how good the music seems. |
@nonoise Excellent account! Real phenomenological detail. Love it. FYI: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7062710/ |
My critical listening is done sober. I find it quite easy to set myself up for it. I go through all manner of listening styles, choose one, and just proceed from there. It comes from an old creative writing class where one of the disciplines we cultivated was to close our eyes and listen to sounds the teacher made. We were told to imagine images, scenes, colors and whatnot and not to fight it. In short order we were able to dive deep into that practice on a moments notice as a way of warming up for the writing. I can sit back and "see" all manner of mental images that correspond to the music. Sometimes it can be like a graph. Other times a fluid mechanical representation that’s never the same any time I try it. Sometimes it’s a Tetris like soundstage where the notes (represented by different colored squares) come out into the room based on their intensity and location. That one is a fun one to do and I can call it up at will. The first time it happened it came out of nowhere. It’s not an ability to focus but to just let go and see where it takes you. When I’ve described it to others, I’d get that look but now I’m the one who feels sorry for those that can’t do what is really a simple trick. I’m also able to feel the frisson of the music in most parts of my body as well as the emotional connection that frisson produces. For those unaware of frisson: Frisson, also known as aesthetic chills or musical chills is a psychophysiological response to rewarding auditory and/or visual stimuli that often induces a pleasurable or otherwise positively-valenced affective state and transient paresthesia, sometimes along with piloerection and mydriasis. WikipediaAll the best, Nonoise |
@pauly , No benefit? Perhaps pauly you are not all that old. If you are lucky one day you will wake up a decrepit old man, 2 inches shorter and everything hurts. It is hard to have fun that way. I have many old people who manage to make it through the day and actually have some fun because they do marihuana in one form or another. Our life span in the wild was 50 years at best. The warranty is up at 50. I cycle 2500 miles a year. I'm not saying you should not take care of yourself. If doing a little cannabinus helps in that regard that is fine by me. I know several drivers who are safer when they are stoned. |
As someone who's critical listening must be as consistent as possible for business purposes (i do some contract designs, mostly as a hobby) variables must be avoided. So if you listen to A in an altered state, ensure that B is in the identical altered state. Or maybe leave the altered states for enjoyment and socializing. This is not really an opinion - one variable per equation. G (currently altering his state and listening to Traffic) |
I might have a glass of wine once a month or less. No longer do recreational drugs. But when I listen to my music I start to hallucinate in a good way. This happens to me very often when I’m listening to music not my equipment. It’s a very pleasant experience when this happens. I don’t allow drinking or smoking in my audio room. |
| Post removed |
