Cayin A88T or 100T is good bang for the buck and pretty tubey but still has some balls. I was just looking around last night at these and there are a few deals to be found. Had the 100T. Great power and very musical.
Can someone suggest a lush tube integrated under $3000 used
My main system it’s solid state preamp and amp. I’ll through in a tube preamp on occasions. Somedays I just miss the lush involving syrupy tube sound with small jazz and blues recordings. I know highs may be rolled off, not a lot of slam but can be so involving you lose track of time. This amp will be matched with some Joseph Audio first gen Pulsar, LSA 2 statement tower with ribbon tweeter and some Tiny Dancers.
I’ve heard good things of the Cary, Ayon, maybe an old Conrad Johnson cav 50, I just don’t have much experience with integrated amps. My speakers aren’t the most efficient.
I’ve heard good things of the Cary, Ayon, maybe an old Conrad Johnson cav 50, I just don’t have much experience with integrated amps. My speakers aren’t the most efficient.
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You don’t have to settle for lush and rolled off. If what you want is involving to where you lose track of time then you don’t even have to settle for used. Slam? Raven Nighthawk will get you there brand new no syrup no problem. Talk to Dave Thompson, he really knows his amps, speakers and tubes, he will set you up with some of his vintage stock. These amps use three sets of preamp tubes just tell him what you want it to sound like he will get you there. |
I was hoping to find an integrated that can use some tubes I already have. I do have 8 Mullard xf2 and old winged C’s el34’s with a lot of life, 6sn7, rca black and gray glass vt-231, kenrads, some amprex 6922 pinched waist plus others. That’s one reason I was looking at the Cary sli80. I looked at the Vac I see a lot out there but there not selling and would hate to get stuck with it if it doesn’t work out and a little over budget. Little concerned with Cayin for repairs being Chinese. Always admired the Art Audio. |
https://youtu.be/eyTSyclr-GQ Used Rogue Cronus Magnum II can be had around 18k$. Altec A7 was drivne by Rogue Cronus Magnum II fitted with Telefuken 12ax7 and Amperex 12Au7 which will cost 400-500 more for Nos tubes. You judge the sound yourself. |
If you already have a tube preamp, why not go for a straight amp vs integrated? There's a whole new world of options behind that door. I was specifically thinking of the VTA amps from Tubes4Hifi.com. They offer excellent circuits and build quality for the price, and you can roll tubes to suit your tastes...the tube rolling, can of course be done with an integrated amp too. |
@paulcreed, A well designed and implemented tube amplifier can offer beautiful and realistic full bodied tonality, timbre and harmonic overtones. In my opinion these are very desirable and coveted sonic characteristics. You can have all of this without "syrupy" signature. I could be misunderstanding your use of that term. Syrupy has a negative connotation to my interpretation. Tubes can provide the positive qualities I mentioned without sacrificing resolution, inner detail and nuance. Charles |
Maybe syrupy is the wrong word. Warm side of neutral may be better. Around 15 years ago I tried the BAT vk5i, Rouge 99 magnum and thought they were nice but didn’t provide the enjoyment of the others tube preamps I’ve owned. I did look into the suggested Raven and that looks very interesting. The thought and build quality they provide looks inviting. They do claim warm side of neutral. 20 watts is a concern with 6ohm 87db speaker even with there claim of high current. |
You guys are throwing out random suggestions of amps that you like. Would you describe these amps as having "lush involving syrupy tube sound"? I bet if you really thought they sounded that way, you wouldn't like 'em. Syrupy is NOT something I want in my system. Which is exactly why the Cary I recommended in this thread lasted less than a week at my house. But that's what the OP wants..... |
Quicksilver integrated. Great customer service. http://quicksilveraudio.com/products/integrated-amplifier/ |
@paulcreed , I would suggest you reach out to Auric Audio. They may be able to build you what you want near your budget target. Excellent quality work and customer service.Let him know what you desire. Choice of transformers, capacitors, resistors and wire can tailor the sonic signature of an amplifier. Charles |
Quickie EL84 would be really interesting to hear. OP said his speaker is not efficient though. Cary SLI-80 was the first that comes to mind. There are quite a few who perform upgrades to it, so there are always options to make it more neutral. In stock form it is said to be on the vintage (warm) side, as described here above..... |
paulcreed- 20 watts is a concern with 6ohm 87db speaker even with there claim of high current. You would drop that concern in a heartbeat if you were here for Chuxpona. We had some very inefficient 87dB monitors that were driven with some 100+ solid state watts at first because we couldn't believe the little Raven would be enough. When we switched amps to the Blackhawk those speakers came ALIVE! Anyone listening blind would swear the amps were reversed, they sounded so much better with the Raven. The owner was floored and wanted to see how loud they would go. "Is that as loud as it goes?" he asked. I never had to crank it like that with my Moabs, so just kept cranking until it was about 3/4. The sound was big and full and LOUD! I know it sounds crazy. The common wisdom keeps insisting watts are watts, no matter how many absolutely unbelievably compelling demonstrations proving it wrong. They just keep going. Like the freaking Energizer Bunny. No evidence. Proven wrong over and over again. Do a search. Read actual user comments. Lots of people have these with speakers like yours, power is simply not a problem. Oh and the room we were filling with volume? 17x24x9. Not small. And full of sound absorbing audiophiles at the time. I believe this is written up in my Chuxpona review as well. |
I watched a video on the owner/designer of Raven Audio and his thoughts on building an amp were very impressive. His philosophy reminded me of Don Allen a guy that built a preamp for me long ago that cost $800 but sounded better than some $5000 preamps I had. Don always felt not to use matching resistors and caps, his idea was trial and error with parts to find the right sound, same statement Raven audio made. I like how Raven pre has 6 preamp tubes to stagger different brands. They claim to put some money in the preamp section which I feel a lot of other company’s cut corners on the preamp section of an integrated. Main reason I’ve not had good luck with integrated amps a have used separates. Can someone explain how how Raven is getting moderately efficient speakers to get loud with 20 tube watts. I have a Mapleshade Scott lk48 maybe 20 watts but it can only do so much with 6 ohm 87 db speakers. That’s why it’s in a closet, it’s great with Altec 604’s or Klipsch but anything else it falls short. I like what I’m seeing from Raven Audio, will look into them some more. |
@paulcreed, One thing is for sure, all 20 watt tube amplifiers aren't the same nor are 87 db sensitivity speakers (Some are simply easier impedance loads than others). Sensitivity alone doesn't present the entire picture. Fortunately Raven Audio has a very generous 45 day home trial period. No better way to determine if their 20 watt amplifier is right for your particular situation. Charles |
OP: Raven Audio Nighthawk is a great match with high sensitivity speakers. I can tell you from experience (I owned the Blackhawk for several months) that they don't do as well with anything less than 88 db. I tried them with Harbeth 30.1 and SHL5+, and while they don't sound bad per se, the limitations of 20 watts become immediately obvious. They were ok in my home office (12x13) but were completely lost in the main audio room (20x15). I'm willing to admit that in my case it was not the amp's fault, I just wasn't matching them with appropriate speakers. All I'm saying is that they don't do well with low'ish sensitivity speakers in slightly bigger spaces. Don't let anyone persuade you otherwise. But if your speakers are reasonably efficient in a small to midsize room, then yes they are absolutely amazing. I also owned Cronus Magnum II prior to the Blackhawk, and while the CM provided more oomph, it lacked the beautiful and lush (not syrupy at all) musicality of the Blackhawk. Given your speakers are a good match, Raven provides a nice dose of the 'true' tube sound without stepping into the 'syrupy' territory. The build quality and looks are also top grade. |
@tomic601 -- The VTL was actually bought by my friend. I didn't want to bring it up because the OP wanted to learn more about Raven, but there's simply no comparison. The VTL I-85 is in a totally different league compared to Raven's Blackhawk. It has that el34 magic but also the balls to drive low sens speakers very well. If you look at my main virtual system pics, you will see the VTL sitting side by side with the Qualiton a50i. We did a shootout a few weeks ago. The VTL is very good but the a50i is in yet another league above the VTL, at least for my taste. But I can def see how someone might actually prefer the el34 sound of the VTL over the KT120 of a50i. Unfortunately, my friend had some unexpected expenses so he basically returned the speakers and amp back to me. I don't really need an expensive amp in my study, otherwise I would have bought the VTL from him in a heartbeat. I might be putting it up for sale soon. I wish I could somehow justify keeping both the Qualiton a50i and VTL in my systems, but I can't :( |
in my travels, cj’s, cary’s and primaluna’s have evoked the word ’lush’ sounding in integrated amps (vac’s are variable by model, as are vtl’s i m e) not the last word in impact, nor transparency, but certainly ’lush’ - as usual, it is about putting the piece in place within a chain that benefits from its prime sonic characetristics |
@ozzy62, "With shipping both ways and restock fee that could get kind of pricey. But it’s the only way to know for sure" You are right, the shipping cost is a consideration. But if truly interested how else can @paulcreed determine if the Raven works out for his needs. The very informed and thoughtful post from @arafigpq addressing the 20 watt Raven-lower sensitivity pairing is exactly why a home trial audition is so valuable. What didn’t work for @arafiq could possibly work for another. Getting the amplifier into the home audio system and ’just listen’ is the way to go. Charles |
Ozzy62- MC, is your Blackhawk "lush and syrupy’? If so, sorry for you. If not, nice try and thanks for playing........ Never good to go snotty, especially not with me, and definitely not when all it winds up accomplishing is revealing your lack of reading comprehension. Read what I wrote- exactly what I wrote: You don’t have to settle for lush and rolled off. If what you want is involving to where you lose track of time then you don’t even have to settle for used. Slam? Raven Nighthawk will get you there brand new no syrup no problem. Now, what the OP said was, Somedays I just miss the lush involving syrupy tube sound... I know highs may be rolled off, not a lot of slam but can be so involving you lose track of time. Now since you’re having such a hard time with this I am going to explain what this means. He wants "involving" so much he mentions it twice. In relation to lush and syrupy, which we know he doesn’t really care for since he says, "I know the highs may be rolled off, not a lot of slam, but can be so involving you lose track of time." It is clear to me he wants to be involved to such an extent he loses track of time, and not only that but wants this so much he is willing to put up with rolled off highs, etc. Therefore, me being the sensitive logical and comprehending audio guru that I am I point out that Raven will deliver all that he wants without having to put up with any of what he doesn’t. Sincerely do hope this clears it up for you. |
I second the Quicksilver Integrated and also Audio Hungary a20i See it here used and they will blow anything Raven builds out of the water. PERIOD! https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649782052-audio-hungary-qualiton-a20i/ |
On a whim got a
Willsenton R8
(yes Chinese but very well made, made in the same factory as line magnetic stuff i believe) and it's surprisingly well made and sounds very good if I do say. I have a bunch of tube stuff at home and its way better than the price would indicate, came super well packaged as well. takes KT88, 6550 / EL34's switchable. I have no issues at recommending one of their amps. customer service was excellent as well when i had a question they were back to me in a day (very good considering the time difference). there's enough reviews on youtube now, google and they pop up by the droves. and I agree with all of them. I use mine in my computer room system originally on some Tektons Lore's now driving some much less efficient ADS speakers and the amp sound fantastic. tube change was the fist thing i did mind you. |
Words like syrupy and lush may have been a mistake. kennyc my main system you hear deep in recording, big tight bass, some effects coming out of speakers are so real they will startle you coming out of nowhere. Highs have air and sparkle. I truly enjoy that system. That’s not what I’m looking for. I grew up in New Orleans going in little jazz clubs with maybe 10 or 30 people in there with all acoustic instruments no microphones no board only the acoustics of the room, and hope it’s a good room. Maybe a better word is I’m looking for natural or organic tones on the warm side. If the music calls for a dirty sound then the amp can get dirty and raw. I don’t think any amp can sound like real music but would just like to get as close as I can. I think the Audio Hungary looks very interesting but it would have to be used. The one on usam has been pulled off. |
@paulcreed, "That’s not what I’m looking for. I grew up in New Orleans going in little jazz clubs with maybe 10 or 30 people in there with all acoustic instruments no microphones no board only the acoustics of the room, and hope it’s a good room. Maybe a better word is I’m looking for natural or organic tones on the warm side." Yep! Understanding completely what you want, organic, full bodied tone and instrumental weight and warmth. Nothing to do with "syrupy". I share a similar background as you. Many years attending intimate jazz venues and hearing acoustic instruments up close and without microphones (Unnecessary in the small clubs). Doing this for 30 years has definitely left an imprint 😃. It's very difficult for audio components to reproduce that genuine dynamic full warm tone of those live instruments. However some very good tube components come closer than other alternatives in my opinion. Charles |
