Buyer Dispute

kirbymydog,

Do you have an idea when you will receive the newly stocked tweeters from B&W?

ozzy

The seller left very good feedback for me

Without having read it, I'll assume the positive feedback left for you was deserved. You met your obligation when you paid him.

drobin07-The question of fault has never really been a topic between me and the seller. The biggest issue for me was the time it was taking to resolve with the warranty solution. When the seller placed the warranty order, B&W (Encompass) was showing they would ship in 7 days. No problem. Once 7 days was up, it changed to 12 days. Then 56, etc. This went on for the last 6 months. And I had no idea how much longer it would take, and B&W was unable to tell me when they would be in stock again. How the tweeters were damaged was another issue. I informed the seller that I must agree to disagree that the tweeter voice coils became discontinuous during shipment. My experience in the recording industry, and my engineering background led me to this conclusion.

In any case, and as though on cue, B&W has restocked the tweeters as of yesterday. This issue will be resolved once I have them in hand.

Yes, I agree that it was a mistake on my part to jump the gun on positive FB. No question about it. Fortunately, the seller quickly agreed to replace them after I let him know that they were not working. On several occasions in his emails, he noted that he was going to resolve the problem for me. Perhaps I will post some of the emails.

The problem with leaving the positive feedback is that it implies that the speakers were working when you received them (and your feedback also commends the packaging, despite the damage that you mention in your original post). That, unfortunately, makes it much more difficult to prove that the seller is at fault.

Adding to the above; Positive feedback given to the seller does not relieve the seller from his responsibilities to the buyer. I have an email chain that goes all the way back to the original sale that documents every step of this transaction.

The positive feedback was left before listening critically to the loudspeakers. It was my bad. You can be sure I will never do that again. I would like to remove the feedback if I could and would certainly agree to have the positive feedback he left for me removed.

It's already past all of that oregon.

Seems to me the seller took advantage of a buyer. 

Refund (regardless if buyer wanted to wait for tweeters because it looks like he/she stalled for time so buyer could not use Paypal to dispute the transaction) immediately, for $7000 speakers that don't work. Highly suspicious that seller did not know that BOTH tweeters were blown.

 Buyer needs to demand refund and patiently seek his dream speakers from someone else.

Here is the listing, check out the feedback left by OP.  I am wondering why would buyer (kirbymydog) leaves a positive feedback without first testing the speakers?? 

“Professional, attentive and trustworthy seller. My items were packed well and with care. I hope that I have a chance to do business with this Audiogon member in the future. Thank you.”

4krowme-I will keep the forum updated until this issue is completely resolved. 

Roxy-I will install them myself. I have the tool necessary to remove and replace the tweeters.

Nice research ozzy. Thanks.

ploudenback seems to be the seller.

ozzy

It is obvious to most of us that the tweeters were Damaged Before Shipping. How that might have happened doesn't matter. Defective, non-working equipment is just that. Please keep this community informed as this proceeds. 

I am mostly a reader here but at the end of it all I think it is important for the Audiogon community to know who the seller is so the members may make a more educated decision when conducting business.  The facts and feedback are valuable. 

Kirby, are you prepared to install these tweeters yourself, or will that be an additional cost to you?

Hope its the solution but be sure to let the seller know the tweeters might be the cure but they might also just be a symptom and that the seller's responsibility is a set of working speakers.

The tweeter are in the mail…….how many times have you heard that one!

Amazingly, the ZZ28738 tweeters are now in stock as of today so it appears that I will receive the new tweeters within a month or so.

I am very aware that voice coils do not simply become discontinuous in this scenario. In addition, Bowers and Wilkins agrees with me. I am quite certain they were shipped that way and I have shared my opinion on this with the seller. Note that I have invited the seller to participate in this forum, and how these tweeters became discontinuous would be a good discussion to have with him, among other topics.

Best of luck, Kirby.

I am currently discussing a solution with the seller mediated by Audiogon. However, if a satisfactory resolution is not reached by February 7th, I will consider publishing his Audiogon ID. I will post all updates.

I think you should by now publish his augon user id so that we could avoid buying from him. 

I’ll bet that he will decline, and that may not be the best remedy for you anyway if the tweeter failure was caused by an event that also damaged the crossover. At this time you have no way of knowing that. If he pays you the $2000.00, that would be considered a closed settlement. What would you do if you later determined that there was other expensive damage to the crossover?

@geof3 @kirbymydog 

frankly a partial refund and calling it good is to me even more dangerous. Are you absolutely sure two new tweeters are your problem? Sure the crossovers arent faulty/damaged? Have you asked yourself if the tweeters didnt magically both get damaged in shipping, what could have caused them both to fail? Are you certain that woofers weren’t damaged? Have you checked the output from the crossovers?

The moment you accept are partial refund, its your problem from there on, no recourse, no seller responsibility. Its your money but you are looking for an end to your problem when the course of action involving a partial refund may be just the beginning. We arent talking about addressing a cosmetic issue, they are inoperable and the solution you suggest is no guarantee it will be solved.

I have told the seller to send me $2000 to cover the cost of new ZZ28738 tweeters and I have also opened a dispute with Audiogon. I have further action to take should he choose to decline.

There is a pair of tweeters for the D3s on eBay, right now. Not cheap. Have the seller refund the amount you need to buy them, plus a 10% PITA fee and install them and call it good. There are SO many things that can go wrong if you send those speakers back. He could claim damage etc… potential nightmare. If he doesn’t agree to make the above happen, take steps then protect yourself. The above idea is the easiest, cleanest way out. Any other way is a potential nut roll.

No insurance? That's absolutely negligent.

I am also surprised there was no insurance for the shipping of such expensive items

this is a fraud. He sold you something he KNEW was defective. He is not a potato farmer, he is in the audio business. 

Your easiest remedy is small claims court. It takes some work, but he will likely want to avoid it, it's a good deterrent.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and input. Many of you provided thoughtful discussions which has helped me formulate my approach to this issue.

@builder3 This isn’t a PayPal issue at this point. Hire an attorney, he’ll send an official letter.

Disputes may be opened with Paypal within 180 days of the payment date (August 2021). Then there is a timeline to follow.

In any event (it appears that the OP has been reluctant to do that - the 180 days must be around now, or very very soon) I have previously advised to consult with a qualified legal person who yes, would probably shoot off a letter of demand. Something any retail lawyer is familiar with.

Easy.

I have contacted the seller many times by email requesting refund, return, payment for new tweeters and more. He has refused all, and says that the warranty replacement is all that he will do. Period. One of my recent emails asked him if he would contact B&W to see if anything could be done. I received no response from him

Have you contacted the seller to discuss a remedy and if so, what was his position? 

This isn't a PayPal issue at this point. Hire an attorney, he'll send an official letter. You'll likely get some satisfaction. Good luck with it.

For the most part, I have believed that the seller has made an effort to resolve this by way of the warranty. However, the amount of time that his solution is taking has now become unreasonable. it is unfortunate that I waited this long. However, I have at least two avenues of recourse. Positive feedback does not relieve the seller of his responsibilities to the buyer.

This is starting to sound bad for the OP. I hope that he gets some remedy.

Yes, the positive feedback was my bad. I did not wait to critically check them out. All of my correspondence with the seller was cordial and phone calls were cooperative. That was back around the time of the purchase. I’ve obviously learned something.

The OP gave the seller positive feedback. A PayPal dispute is only good for 45 days. The speakers were purchased 6 months ago. I doubt very much that the OP will get any kind of a refund. This is the PayPal  rules!

PayPal requires you to file all claims within 45 days of the transaction. If you wait longer, PayPal will deny the claim automatically. You must also make sure you used PayPal, and not a credit or debit card, to pay for the items in question.

@kirbymydog. You are right to keep pressure on the manufacturer. Given the big marketing push by B&W for the D4s, perhaps existing customers are being overlooked in favour of building new stock. The same is happening in the bike industry where spares are in very short supply as most manufacturing is being dedicated to supplying OEM bike brands. But in the context of high end hi-fi which, by comparison, is a very niche market, it is a very short sighted strategy. Would you buy another Bowers and Wilkins speaker if you thought it would not be supported by the manufacturer for any length of time? That's a rhetorical question of course.

What LloydC said above is 100% accurate. This is entirely on the seller to fix with a full refund or partial refund depending on the wishes of the buyer. Lloyd I think we come from the same training which normally takes one 3 years to accomplish. You laid it out perfectly there is no other way to even look at this.

This is exactly what PayPal is for. Get your refund and move on.

@kirbymydog, I truly envy your calm,cool,level head.  

Why did you give the seller positive feedback? That sure does not look good for you to get any kind of a refund!

Dang ghasley you and I are like minded. There is a time and a place for all things including a plane ride.. 6 months, no speakers, 7K.. I’d be gittin’ ticked.. BUT be cool and FERM for now..

Tell the seller it's OK if he puts another pair on hold to take care of you first. Rip them off a new pair.. Like that's never happened.. GIVE ME MY SPEAKERS!

BTW my face is RED and I ain't drunk.... YET!!! Add a little gunpowder to my drink please..

Regards

Saying they were working before shipment is complete BS. They didn’t magically die during shipping. I would demand my money back including shipping. If you are willing to keep waiting for the replacement tweeters I would be demanding some compensation for you sitting there speakerless for half a year when none of this was your fault. 
 

if it gets nasty you can pull the social media card. I got into it with a not to be named company and after I talked with their corporate and explaining I would dedicate all my free time to tenaciously MFing them on social media they changed their tune. 
 

If mentioned I missed it, did they give you an eta when your tweets would finally be delivered? 

Absolutely I would have a conversation with the dealer and the seller. Be extra nice but communicate that all you wanted were working speakers, as advertised by his employee. Communicate that you gave the seller the benefit of the doubt as well as a nauseatingly lengthy amount of time to remedy the problem. Explain that the seller represented his employment with the authorized dealer as evidence of his credibility. You extended the credibility because the dealer is a legitimate B&W dealer. If there is a representation problem, it actually exists between the seller and his employer as it wasn’t you who made the inference.
 

Now, explain that you are a man of principal and that you arent going anywhere. The last point is the one that usually results in a satisfactory resolution. Explain that you have no issue whatsoever with the idea of spending $100,000 in legal fees if they force you to chase this to ground. Its the principal of the matter.