Brain Farts w/ Roon Nucleus

Just an observation, INNUOS has both Tidal and Qobuz connect. It completely removes the need for roon. No longer is there a need for using the proprietary app(Sense) from the streaming manufacturer. unlike blue sound you have to use their BluOs app to get Tidal. Just open up the Tidal app and start playing music. Good luck on your future upgrade if you go with INNUOS like me and many others have enjoyed it immensely!

I have a Roon Nucleus Plus with 4 GB.  All I can tell you is, you’re not alone.  Roon does have some annoying little glitches that, because I love Roon’s functionality so very much, they’re something that I have learned to settle in with and live with.  There seems to be no cure for the glitches and there seems to be nothing I can do to totally eliminate them.  It’s kinda like a love-hate relationship, but not even that serious.  I run a Hegel integrated amp with an Ayer Acoustics QX-5 Twenty Streaming DAC, switch, ethernet cables, etc.  The main glitch that I have experienced l in my audio system with Roon is it freezing.  I mean, it freezes my remote, or iPad, to where it will not respond when I push a button on it to stop the music, pause, play, etc.  When this issue occurs, sometime all I have to do is press the Roon icon on my iPad for it to re-set and go back to normal, and if that doesn’t work, I have to actually power-down my iPad, power it back up, and everything will re-set and go back to normal operations.  All of this only takes a couple minutes or so, so it's not too bad.  During some listening sessions, this issue may never occur, and then at other times, it may occur a couple times during an extended listening session.  After about four years of dealing with these minor issues that I call "HICCUPS,"  I’ve gotten used to them and have learned to cope with them, as they do not detract from the just incredible, overall listening experience that I get with my Roon Nucleus Plus in place.  Happy listening..      

I would suggest the following 

In Roon settings go to Library tab and check your settings for Background Audio Analysis Speed (mine is set to Throttled) and On-Demand Audio Analysis Speed (mine is set to Off). 
 

Try same settings as I have. Or even set the Background audio analysis speed to Off. see if the issue goes away. 
Also try to disable any DSP. Do the changes one at a time.  

The OP is probably not very technically savvy, but if he were I'd encourage him to open up a shell to his Nucleus and leave top running.  See what takes time when things slow down, and how much RAM is being consumed.  

Also, be aware that solid state drives can and DO fail, sometimes without warning.  Well, the signs are there if you know how to look at the S.M.A.R.T. disk stats but unfortunately few of us ever do and it's only when a system starts to misbehave that we wonder what's going on.   Your symptoms may be more related to a disk being bad than anything else, but hard to tell without checking.  

Make sure you have a solid backup of all your music. 

I read about these issues from time to time and though I've been a Roon user for quite a few years, I must say that I have never once had this happen. If I can't connect to my Roon server then I know I need to reboot my router. That's the problem 100% of the time. For me, that is, I'm sure that's not the answer to the OP's issues.

I think audphile 1 has some good suggestions to try. Also, if you've never seen this, there may be something buried here that could help; https://www.head-fi.org/threads/roon-optimization-guide-for-increased-sound-quality.968792/

My experience with Roon (the company) and it's Nucleus + was a nightmare.

A terrible company with easily the worst support model for a product that users pay for.

Thankfully I found Innuos Sense.

Zero issues and the company provides top notch support if it is needed.

I've had Innuos engineered log into my system and fix/tweak things within 3 days of issue being reported.

It all amounts to me as ...

Work to get off Room. 

You will be happier

To actually answer one of your questions ..

I find Innuos Sense as functional as Roon in every way -cept maybe artist/bio stuff

A few tidbits to offer.  
 

1) throttling the background processing as suggested helps reserve processing power for other tasks so that is a good idea. 
 

2) sometimes the Roon endpoint not Roon itself can become the bottleneck, for example when many tracks are in the queue.  Displaying the queue contents can lock up the Roon controller for a time while displaying initially.  
Also my Cambridge Audio streamers sometimes take a long time to start playing a track with many tracks in the Roon device’s queue.  A restart of the streamer device usually clears that.  I often queue up thousands of tracks randomly so I do ask a lot of Roon and my streamers  there. 
 

Yes Roon isn’t perfect but I find the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages. 
 

Roon can be very CPU intensive.  I run it on a very modest powered device that works well but often bottlenecks on CPU.  Will likely move to a faster device with more CPU horsepower at some point.  
 

Next time Roon hangs up,  check the system resource monitor on your OS to see where the bottleneck is.  Most likely CPU and maybe network bandwidth in some cases with Roon core/server from what I have seen personally.

With windows deactivating unneeded os services can go a long way.  
 

Also avoid running other cpu intensive programs on your Roon server.  For example Google Chrome and other browsers can be a resource hog as well especially if one allows many cookies to collect and suck up cpu resources. 

Honestly one shouldn’t expect great performance from an old computer. I upgraded from a ROCK with a NUC 7i5 to a NUC 13i7 + much more RAM and it has become a lot snappier. 

I know that Roon always says the hardware specs don’t matter that much, but in my experience, while both NUCs work, the difference was very much notable. 

The operating system is the weak link with some equipment including Roon in my experience.  I have an Innuos Zen MK3 and switched the settings from Roon to the Innuos Sense app streaming Qobuz.  No issues.  Now able to use the Qobuz app still using the Innuos streamer.  

I am not an IT guy but sounds like it could be a lack of computing power.  It’s a power hungry program.  Placing it on their dedicated servers was supposed to be a fix but I suspect that the demands of upgraded software have outstripped the computing ability of these servers

IMO, none of you understand what the OP is experiencing! As a longtime Roon user, the platform was near perfect until they got bought by Harmon! This is when Roon began to ‘hang up’ repeatedly during listening sessions. The suggestions given are all good connectivity practices, but the problem is with Roon itself, not a particular user issue or setup or combination of gear. 
 

Also, the suggestions of using some other file rendering platform is a little short-sighted because I’m not aware of one as powerful, intuitive and complete as Roon especially for the artist metadata and layout. You are comparing a Carrola to a Ferrari! 

Pretty sure it’s the processing on the old Nucleus that’s at fault. 
My roon core is on the 2018 Mac Mini with 8GB RAM. Nothing fancy. It’s been solid. Hope disabling the back end scans and DSP if necessary will resolve the Roon brain farts. 

Room needs to create software that just works with the avg subscribers computers 

This:

throttling the background processing as suggested helps reserve processing power for other tasks so that is a good idea. 

Shouldn't even be a thing 

I really don’t understand why a person asked a question and then doesn’t participate in the thread. They make me feel that I’m wasting my wasted time. 

@kennymacc  Thanks for that. Some solace in not being an outlier in this issue.  I have two iPads, my phone and a desktop computer, and when I get the squirrelly Roon icon it is happened on all of them.  Wish it was isolated to one device, but sadly no.

@audphile1  Thank you for the suggestions.  I changed the Library>Background Audio Analysis Speed setting to Throttled.  I will do as you suggest, make one adjustment at a time to see if I can make some progress.

@erik_squires  I may not be Bill Gates, Paul Allen or an Apple Engineer, but I do know my way around a bit.  As I eluded to in the Original Post, I don't find Roon's user forum or help site very helpful, and as with most these day there a many options, toggles to choose from. Hence asking for help here.  I also don't think I need to lift the hood to have a Roon Nucleus without performance issues.

@phishhhhh4  I'm going to stop by a few audio dealers tomorrow and see what they have to say.  I don't think either of them are Innuos dealers though.

@mapman  @stijnv  My Roon Nucleus is the Roon Server (I believe that is the correct terminology).  I have the app on my iPad, phone and PC.  I don't run Roon off a Mac Mini or anything like that, as do many.

@boostedis  Thank You

@gkelly  I love you too!  I often don't react to ever post individually.  It helps to get the gamut of thoughts before react.

Thanks everyone.  This conservation has been helpful, and will continue to be as I navigate to a fix, be that a Titan, Innuos, or just a setting tweak.

This in a nutshell is why any device like this will be obsolete in a few years. Why you will need either an IT background, or know a IT person to keep these units running long term. 

You purchased a cheap computer, in a nice case, applied updates. Then your library has grown over time. This sounds like an indexing issue.

Any 1gb network will have 0 issue streaming music, you need around 5mb to stream hi-rez. Unless your network is not setup properly, it's not your network. 

CPU intensive? To stream music? Nope, it's not, it's disc intensive, buffer/ram Doing DAC is CPU intensive, but just the TCP/IP stream? Nope

Back to the disk, think if you have a big collection of music, you need a fast disk with good cashing, and error correction buffers. This will cost 2-3x over a cheap disk. 

Chances are the software has indexing jobs that run on some time table. These can make anything come to a stop. Yes, having more resources will help, but it is an entire system process. 

Yeah, having a shell open, seeing everything that is running, what is taking up resources.  https://www.unixtutorial.org/commands/top/

Honestly, the easiest way to stream your cataloged music, if to have it on a high quality USB disk, plug that into your DAC or streamer. Keep the music separate from your "computer" . This way you can upgrade the chain and not affect all other parts. You separate the OS from the data. 

Or you get a NAS, learn about networking and QOS, mount that drive on your endpoint. My NAS failed (network card failed), just moved everything to an external disk. Simple, is always better.

My experience with Roon was similar to other users. It was great until Harmon bought it.  Within two months it had just about lost all reliable functionality. I got so frustrated I cancelled my subscription. 
 

I was hoping that going with a turnkey solution would guarantee functionality. If it doesn’t, I’ll be looking for a different solution.

@pgaulke60 i know you’re using a Nucleus as your Roon server, but they’re quite old and the specs not great. My point is that I suspect that a faster Roon server will probably perform better. 

When I was struggling with Roon and my Nucleus + Roon support advised me to install more memory...which I did....it did not solve my problems  

I've had the same issue with Roon for three years and don't believe its anything to do with the Nucleus. I have mine hardwired and have my Lumin P1 hardwired. The only conclusion I've arrived at is the Eero mesh system I use must be routing my laptop (which I use to control Roon) on one channel and the hardwired system is confused by this. I also have a hardwired ethernet connection cable that I can use on my laptop to have it, the nucleus and the Lumin all hardwired. It seems to happen less often this way but still is not rock solid, perfect 100% of the time. Annoying for sure which is why I keep a bluesound set up hooked up and attached to the Lumin too- when Roon acts up i switch over to the bluesound and stream into the Lumin. The bluesound is 100% reliable and always works. I gave up on the Roon forums- every question you post is answered with them wanting to know every single aspect of your devices, ip addresses, switches, etc - endless questions and they always blame it on your set up, not their software.  

Well to confuse things even further I've found Roon has improved quite a bit overall since teh Harmon purchase.

Beefier hardware with more/faster CPU and memory  is key for sure.  When I upgrade it will most likely be to a Mac mini.  But no rush...it works just fine for me now though I understand where it could be overwhelming for less technical people.  I do this stuff for a living so I am used to it but have no doubt its totally overwhelming for many.   Really good things are seldom also really easy.  There are other less complicated options out there if needed.  Different strokes.

I have roon and nucleus, lifetime roon user. I hate annual fees.

I’m not thrilled with how roon handles file management issues as well as connectivity issues with a Microsoft desktop.  Incredibly technical and the interfaces are really glitchy. But I do like the album descriptions they draft.

I don’t know if anyone else has trouble with the file management system and yes the support is dreadful. Would be nice if you could speak to someone on the phone. But the forum offered does have people who respond. 

Roon can be very CPU intensive.  I run it on a very modest powered device that works well but often bottlenecks on CPU.  Will likely move to a faster device with more CPU horsepower at some point.  
 

Personally I think the CPU requirements for Roon core are somewhat exaggerated.  I run mine on an AMD 5600G and never have an issue.  Not sure how this compares to a Nucleus.  The CPU intense work, except during upgrades, is the DSP if you have it enabled as well as any conversions, especially from PCM to DSD.  

Otherwise I hardly ever see it use very much at all.  Of course that’s all relative. :) 

I understand that the OP doesn’t want to lift the hood... but that may be the least expensive option.  If the OP was able to run top or better yet, nmon, and watch what happens when it brain farts he may learn a lot.  

It could all be bad Roon.  Bad.  Or it could be a lot of other things like a bad drive or intermittent network which causes the system to stall.  

I don’t regret keeping my life very simple. If I’m expected to be part of the product support team, I’ll catch the technology next time around when it’s monkey proof. 

I have no issues with Roon other than occasional Roon Remote freezing, this on cheap tablet via wifi off whole house router. My Roon setup is on segregated audio streaming network (1gb), all hard wired, longest ethernet cable (all AQ Vodka) 1.5M. Roon runs on two streamers, custom build for Core, Sonore OpticalRendu for Endpoint, Core streamer powerful processor, enterprise RAM, Euphony OS (extremely optimized audio only OS) always using less than 1% on 7 cores, doesn't matter what Roon processes running. Also have more than 3K cd rips on NAS, streams SQ equal to rips. 

Also have more optimizations, these for sound quality rather than processor or network  and streamer speed, stability, reliability. My take is you need this level of optimization for use with large libraries via Roon. The proprietary music player apps work better since they're optimized for those streamers, Roon is universal app so one should expect variable speed, stability, reliability, Roon can't account for the extreme variability in streaming setups.

I've been using Roon for about 8 years and bought the lifetime subscription after the first year. Besides the great user interface, what I like about Roon is the ability to use it with a wide range of devices without having to change anything in my library, playlists, etc. And the ability to play the same or different content on multiple devices at the same time. 

I currently have nine endpoints connected to my Roon system - four Bluesound Node 2is, two RPi devices running Ropieee, an Auralic Vega G2, a Sonore Signature Rendu SE, and a Wiim Ultra. It's not unusual for me to be playing different content on 4-5 endpoints at the same time.

My library is a similar size as the OP's - slightly more artists and albums, slightly fewer tracks. 

I started out running the Roon server on my Windows desktop, then built a dedicated NUC i7 running ROCK. About three years ago, I bought an SGC i9 server which runs their propriety Linux OS. I switched to this because I wanted to experiment with HQPlayer. 

Overall, Roon has been very reliable. I have had some issues with my Sonore, but I think this is related to the optical Ethernet connection. All my other endpoints have been rock solid. 

The only other issue I've had is with the iOS apps. They work great when first launched, but if the device goes into standby and closes the connection to the Roon server, it often doesn't seem to reconnect automatically. Closing the app and relaunching always fixes the problem. If I'm doing an extended listening session, I'll set the app to stay on which prevents it from disconnecting. Tho iphone app seems to work a bit better than the iPad app, but the iPad app has some more features and is a bit easier to use. 

I have found that Roon has continued to improve since the Harmon acquisition. It has gotten a little snappier, and, if anything, sound quality has improved. 

My network setup isn't particularly complicated. Most of my devices are hardwired to a switch connected to my router. I think a couple of my Nodes are running wireless, but everything else uses a wired connection. 

I agree. I just restarted my Roon subscription and the sound quality has definitely improved. Roon UI is the best there is. Aurender Conductor is a close enough second but lacks some key features. One downside with my set up running Roon core on mac mini is once in a while a Roon update would make it finicky on the mac. Knock on wood it has not been an issue so far after I renewed my subscription. 

Another possible issue some having with Roon may be due to the constant updates  being made. I've no doubt, just like with operating systems, each update may be one step closer to making our present streamers obsolete. 

As for the updates, some claim they can hear changes in sound quality after a single update. I've never heard such a thing, now perhaps there may be a slight change after cumulative number of updates, can't say I've ever heard any changes I could confidently attribute to Roon.

Worth noting that I use DSP heavily all the time and my modest older minipc I run teh core/server on still does quite well, however fact is it does peg the CPU frequently which clearly indicates more CPU will only help.   From what I read I will likely upgrade to newer Mac mini at some point as a cost effective solution that should be up to the task fully.

The fact that Roon runs on so many devices both commercial and specialized for audio enthusiasts is perhaps its greatest feature as well as one of its biggest burdens because clearly performance can vary widely depending on what devices are used and there are so many to choose from at all price points.

In my case, with the devices I use, things work very well for the amount of money I have invested.  

Caveats;

1) if vendor support is a key issue for you there may be better options out there.

2)  Given teh range of possible devices used, performance will vary widely.   In general, as with most any computer hardware, you should get what you are willing to pay for.

3) Roon could do a much better job providing more clarity on what to expect with various commonly used devices.  It would probably require a bigger investment by Harmon to be able to provide that information reliably but I think that would help elimiate a lot of angst with users who can only find out for sure via trial and error themselves.  More technically savvy users will be better equipped to navigate the journey effectively than many.

One final note, as with any computer application,  when things head south,  a reboot may be needed to clear things up.   With Roon that mean a reboot of Roon endpoint devices as well as the device the Core/server runs on. Sometimes router and any other devices involved with internet access.

If you have not rebooted all those together ever or for a long time, worth a shot to see if it helps.  A lot of physical devices and services are involved with any network application especially when internet connections and performance of remote services at the other end that users have no control over (Like Qobuz, etc.) come into play.  THings only perform as well as the weakest link in teh chain at any particular moment.

Roon is an awesome app with many unique and valuable features, but those with low tolerance for technical complexity are probably better served using other vendor specific streaming solutions.

If only one could have it all and it always worked perfectly and didn’t cost very much as well.  A perfect world would be very nice indeed!

I have been a senior technical engineer/architect for a major financial services provider for many years.  I also have a technical background in digital signal processing.  So ai am used to this kind of thing and eat it up.  Maybe when I retire sometime soon I will offer up my services to Harmon to see if I might be able to help take Roon to another level.  That would be a fun thing for me to do in retirement but on a very limited part time basis only.  Who know.  Lots of fun things to do in retirement including all the usual audiophile trappings.  

Cheers!

Roon is an awesome app with many unique and valuable features, but those with low tolerance for technical complexity are probably better served using other vendor specific streaming solutions.

I can assure you that at 1:00 a.m., with a bottle of Malbec on board and a head full of indica, most users (particularly myself) have a low tolerance for technical complexity, whatever their background.

@pvnasby for sure for most everyone I know would feel similar. 

But since when did technical  challenges stop audiophiles in their pursuit of excellence?   We are too awesome for that, right?  Tweaking is our middle name!  Roon is just another thing to tweak as needed.

Or not.  To each their own.  Many ways to skin a cat.  Roon is awesome and worth the effort IMHO.  You will learn a lot along the way.  I know I have and am a better audiophile now for doing it. 

Cheers!

@mapman , Truly. I really loved Roon. Thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread until the 14th time I was fairly squiffed and got the dreaded “can’t locate Roon Core” error. This on a wired network with a Node 2i. Was considering getting a Nucleus but now I’m feeling some Innuos. 

In years past i would have been happy to tinker with it. Now I’m getting olde and cranky and I just want stuff  to work.

Prior to my present relatively sophisticated streaming setup I used a series of modified Mac Minis, the last ran just fine with Roon and huge library of rips and streams. I was running a stock cpu, both Core and Endpoint on the mini. I did have a quality network at that time, all wired, 1.5M longest LAN/ethernet cable, 500mb service at that time. So streamer nothing exceptional, network has always been optimized and stable since running Roon.

@sns providing an example of a well behaved Roon setup that is affordable is very valuable info. Thanks.  Also consistent with what I have read about Mac mini being a good choice for running Roon core/server.  Mac mini will be a step up from my current mini pc but guess what, even the mini PC fits the bill fairly well ( even with maxing out the CPU to some extent) so I am not in a rush.  

Hello HiFi Fans, It's me again.  it's the OP, no not the one from Mayberry.

Wanted to update you all on my progress.  First off, eventually I will go the Innuos route. All roads and counsel leads me there, but not just yet.  Purchased a new Degritter RCM on Thursday and that was a priority for me and my vinyl collection.

Spent some quality time in both our upper end Audio Stores here in town.  The first stop has a fella less HiFi and more computer.  We talked a good 45 minutes about the whole Roon scenario I am having and he had many suggestion.

@erik_squires  He did say they don't sell Roon Nucleus anymore.  They now build their own little NUC with a fan, faster everything and more up to date components. They will add the Roon software and get you up and running for less that 50% of a Roon Nucleus Titan.

We talked a lot about network issues.  Some thoughts on next steps there, if it comes to that.

We narrowed down the first step toward a solution as updating the Nucleus RAM.  So, I doubled the RAM and updated the RAM to a much faster model than what was in the old Nucleus.  Cost me all of $30 (on sale).  Easy Peasy fix, just needed to remove a few screws, get under to SSD and install.

So, I am up and running with the next step toward correcting my performance issue after changing Library>Background Audio Analysis Speed setting to Throttled, and doubling the RAM.

Only been a couple of days of playing thus far, so no real results to report.  But I'll let you all know what comes of these changes.

Thanks again for everyone who chimed in and continue the conversation.

Seems you've had some good advice. RAM is important with large libraries and Roon complex interface, I use enterprise level RAM in my custom server as  its extremely reliable and less prone to errors. I also run throttled here, no dsp, volume leveling as well.

I used to run Roon and HQPlayer on an old first-generation mac mini that I upgraded with SSDs and installed Ubuntu linux on. No issues with brain farts unless I used a compute-intensive HQP filter.

I recently bought an ASUS ROG with hefty Nvidia GPU. Again, I wiped Windows immediately and installed Ubuntu. No issues with performance at all, no matter who compute-intensive the HQP filters are. 

For Roon alone, compute and network duties are minimal. RAM and adequate disk space are all you need, assuming any < 5 year old, non bare-bones CPU...

Honestly, the easiest way to stream your cataloged music, if to have it on a high quality USB disk, plug that into your DAC or streamer. Keep the music separate from your "computer" . This way you can upgrade the chain and not affect all other parts. You separate the OS from the data. 

That is what i would try as well. Remove all the music from the Nucleus, put it on a separate drive connected to the network, and see if all works fine. A 4 TB NAS drive is pretty cheap these days. 

I am a long time lover and sufferer of Roon. Reading most of the threads about Roon, I am pretty confident that there are multiple issues with Roon and moreover some of the issues arise out of the composition of your library. 

This is why one person suffers from performance freezes and another doesn’t, on the same hardware. 

Roon appears not to handle very large collections of streaming titles, and struggles when trying to identify unidentified albums like bootlegs, vinyl captures, and the like. It also seems not to like libraries that have lots of user tags. 

My Roon server is on a 6-core 3.9Ghz i5 11500 with 32MB RAM and a PCIE 4.0 SSD and Roon chokes itself to death about 1/4 of the time with some form of database or library processing.  It just grinds and grinds and grinds - CPU usage goes well above 100% -- until Roon loses its *** and loses connectivity for a second.  When it’s done, back to normal, but in the interim it’s paused the music, and sometimes logged out of Tidal and Qobuz. 

The differentiating feature among all users who have different issues or no issues is their library. That’s Roon’s database architecture and scheduled processes...sensitive to some library issues and not others!

This is where Rock and Roon Nucleus are at a disadvantage - the user can't see the resource abuse happening inside the box. 

jji666

... I am pretty confident that there are multiple issues with Roon and moreover some of the issues arise out of the composition of your library ...

And that is exactly why I don’t use Roon. Although I enjoy working with computers and software, I don’t want my listening experience marred by computer software issues.

OP:  Yes indeed, micro PC's are cheap, some built on mobile CPUs offering exceptionally low power consumption.  

Personally I'd do the same.  Get a sub $300 micro PC, install Ubuntu and Roon on it and I'd be set for life.